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kean

Stonewards

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Does anyone have an Idea what the stonewards do and are capable of.

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They can bind the surges of tension and cohesion. Controlling cohesion would probably allow them to bind objects together similar to a full lashing, though through molecular interactions instead of pressure. Not sure what how controlling tension would play out.

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It's highly speculated that their second oath is "I will stand when others fall.". Because of this oath, their name, and what is known about their temperament, I have always viewed them as being similar to Captain America. I definitely believe that this is the order that I myself would fall under as a member of the Knights Radiant. 

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13 hours ago, kean said:

Does anyone have an Idea what the stonewards do and are capable of.

Not really.

We don't know what their Resonance is (if you're new to the forums, Resonance is the 'extra perks' that Radiant's get in addition to their powers. Things like Shallan's memory is a Resonance, and it's likely that Kaladin's skill with the spear and maybe Dalinar's skill with Plate are both Resonance as well.)

We do know their surges, as noted above, but have seen neither of them in action.  

Like most other Radiants, they can get Plate and Blade, and can draw stormlight so they get the associated benefits too.

...But, well, that's about it.  

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8 hours ago, Savanorn said:

We don't know what their Resonance is (if you're new to the forums, Resonance is the 'extra perks' that Radiant's get in addition to their powers. Things like Shallan's memory is a Resonance, and it's likely that Kaladin's skill with the spear and maybe Dalinar's skill with Plate are both Resonance as well.)

Windrunner resonance is the sheer amount of squires they can have, and the strength of the squires, which is apparently more than what other orders can have.

 

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With tension and cohesion, I can see them being the bulwark group.  Building walls, reinforcing defenses and the like.  I see them being part Dwarven Defender, part FMA Alchemist, strengthening defenses around them and being the last ones to retreat.  Conversely, on the attack, I see them undoing enemy defenses.  But with the hinted ideal of "I will stand when others fall".. That feels more defensive to me.

 

This is hinted at in the prologue of WoK, Which I'll Spoiler tag just to be safe:

Spoiler

Taln died defending an impossible pass to allow others to retreat, succesfully.  If the orders reflect their Heralds, Stonewards are the tanks.  Powerful armor, binding things together (cohesion) and strengthening materials (tension - has me thinking tensile strength).  

I feel the Stonewards are the war masters.  They will be the unbreakable wave leading the charge on the front lines, and the un-pierceable shield on defense.

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20 minutes ago, Stark said:

This is hinted at in the prologue of WoK, Which I'll Spoiler tag just to be safe:

Since this is the Stormlight Archive forum, I don't think you have to spoiler WoK, but I agree with the sentiment.

I (and others it appears) am having difficulties thinking of a way that Cohesion and/or Tension can't make normal armor/walls stronger in some form, so "Tank and Bulwark" have become a common Stoneward theme around here.

53 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Windrunner resonance is the sheer amount of squires they can have, and the strength of the squires, which is apparently more than what other orders can have.

I believe that "strength of squires" was Brandon's wording when talking about KR Resonances. He has also told us to watch the amount of squires, but I don't think it was in reference to the Resonance. Personally, I can put an idea that works with either interpretation of that.

Leadership: So many Squires. Protection: Their Stormlight ability.

Strength of Squires as Resonance: Leadership implies who gets the effect, Protection is more of the effect.

Strength & Number as Resonance: Leadership is why the Squires get the effect, and why there is so rusting many of them. Protection is why they have some access to Stormlight (healing, agility, etc..)

Take your pick, expand/nitpick/tell me to make a separate thread, etc..

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Tension has to do with a pulling force transmitted axially by a string like object.  What if connection is like a string, and a surgebinder who can affect tension can affect the tension of the "strings" of connection between people/planets/objects...

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6 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Windrunner resonance is the sheer amount of squires they can have, and the strength of the squires, which is apparently more than what other orders can have.

 

Thanks for pointing that out Spool. You are quite right.  Given he is new to the forum, I didn't want to start throwing out too many terms he might not be particularly familiar with. 

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Given brandons like for golems ill be very disapointed if stonewards cant fuse stones together to create golems.

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So I asked this knowing what there surges were.Also do you think considering these surges that the could run through walls?

 

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2 minutes ago, kean said:

So I asked this knowing what there surges were.Also do you think considering these surges that the could run through walls?

 

No idea. Do you have any reasoning for that idea that I could follow?

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11 hours ago, kean said:

So I asked this knowing what there surges were.Also do you think considering these surges that the could run through walls?

I think they may be but without the efficiency of others Orders (Windrunner, Skybreaker, Edgedancer and DuskBringer) using the Cohesion Surge to make their feet enter in the wall and give them a grip....but I don't think it's a very reliable or fast way to move

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I can't find it, but I think there's a WoB where Brandon explains Tension. He describes it like 'surface tension.' It's the power to make surfaces stiff and strong. He uses the example of making a cloth into a hard shield. 

I imagine it works a little like Abrasion, which is also a surface-based Surge. The same way Lift can coat any object in stormlight to make it slick, a Stonewarder could coat objects in surface tension, making them resistant to physical attack. Like making your skin bulletproof.

Cohesion, I think, would work a bit differently. Most people are assuming it works like adhesion, but I think that's a mistake. Adhesion means sticking onto something, like using glue. But cohesion describes a thing or substance that holds together, within itself. A group that sticks together is cohesive. When matter disintegrates, it loses molecular cohesion (which is a phrase you hear on Star Trek). 

So I think Cohesion surgebinding would be shoring up molecular cohesion. Tension strengthens the surface of an object, but Cohesion strengthens the inner volume, almost like it's increasing density. And a Stoneward, using both powers together, could make a substance indestructible, as long as they don't run out of stormlight.

(I think Division, which is used by Dustbringers and Skybreakers, would be the real opposite of Cohesion. It would be the power to reduce molecular cohesion, and make things disintegrate.)

Edited by Belzedar
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Here's the WoB that @Belzedar was referencing regarding tension.

Quote

HOSER

(Speaking of the division surge) Is that a re-framing of, at one point in time you were talking about weak/strong forces?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Um, weak/strong forces, yes, that's the one that sent me there partially. Like, I'm not actually... the idea of the fundamental forces is a cool thing to me so it's not like I'm actually trying to use the weak and strong forces, the idea of there being fundamental forces. I wanted to go off on it in a fancy way. Like this one right here I told them was surface tension. But it's not really surface tension. It's more like um, the people with this could take a piece of cloth and snap it out and it would become hard as if the cloth became steel. I'm trying to explain this scientifically, but it doesn't work scientifically. Imagine as if they could restructure the atoms so that they became a latticework like a crystal rather than being soft like...cloth. I'm calling it surface tension, but it's not really surface tension.

HOSER

Tensile strength?

BRANDON SANDERSON

(hedging) It's kind of like tensile strength. I have to go through Peter and say "Alright Peter, come up with what we should really call this." He does the hard science a lot better than I do. I do the armchair theories and then he goes, "Ok, now this is the math if someone were to actually fall off of this and 0.7 gravity and the weight of the bridge...". (looking back at the chart) So what can I give you that I didn't give her? Um, one of the orders is called Bondsmiths.

[Source]

 

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On 12/30/2016 at 4:44 PM, Belzedar said:

So I think Cohesion would be shoring up molecular cohesion. [..] , but Cohesion strengthens the inner volume, almost like it's increasing density. And a Stoneward, using both powers together, could make a substance indestructible, as long as they don't run out of Stormlight.

I am curious if this example Brandon has used affects your understanding of the Cohesion Surge in any way. I mainly ask due to Brandon's use of the word "permanent"

Quote

Cohesion Surge can be manipulated by the Surgebinder alter objects at a molecular level; for example, a Surgebinder can push his hand into a table and leave a permanent handprint.[39]

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I'm guessing that Surgebinder would reduce the molecular cohesion of the table, giving it the consistency of a foam or viscous liquid, then make the handprint, then return the table to its normal cohesion, making the handprint permanent. 

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13 hours ago, Belzedar said:

I'm guessing that Surgebinder would reduce the molecular cohesion of the table, giving it the consistency of a foam or viscous liquid, then make the handprint, then return the table to its normal cohesion, making the handprint permanent. 

That makes a lot of sense, and it opens up a lot of new possibilities. You could take a chunk of some material that is beyond the steel and bronze they're used to and shape it into a shield to rival the modern era.

On a similar note, say you had a wall made of large stone blocks. You have posited that by reducing molecular cohesion, you could makes things break apart and disintegrate. Would it be within the realm of possibility that you could increase molecular cohesion to join things together?

Once they have joined together, they would stay as one piece, just as a disintegrated item stays as many small pieces. You would withdraw your hand and have a uniform wall made of a singular block, almost like it had been Soulcast. 

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23 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

That makes a lot of sense, and it opens up a lot of new possibilities. You could take a chunk of some material that is beyond the steel and bronze they're used to and shape it into a shield to rival the modern era.

On a similar note, say you had a wall made of large stone blocks. You have posited that by reducing molecular cohesion, you could makes things break apart and disintegrate. Would it be within the realm of possibility that you could increase molecular cohesion to join things together?

Once they have joined together, they would stay as one piece, just as a disintegrated item stays as many small pieces. You would withdraw your hand and have a uniform wall made of a singular block, almost like it had been Soulcast. 

I always figured that would be what division did. Break apart the intermolecular bonds. Converting solid to liquid state, liquid to gas, maybe even solid straight to gas causing a big explosion as the vapor expands.

But maybe division affects intramolecular bonds/atomic bonds, or something else entirely. Breaking apart intramolecular bonds might be a bit too overpowered though. Lots of elements are highly reactive in their elemental state. Salt for example would produce deadly chlorine gas and elemental sodium which would react strongly with water. Pretty much any compound containing alkali metals would produce some terrifying results.

Cohesion could maybe just affect the strength of an intermolecular bond, not break it entirely. Though that might be a distinction without a difference.

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13 minutes ago, dionysus said:

I always figured that would be what division did. Break apart the intermolecular bonds. Converting solid to liquid state, liquid to gas, maybe even solid straight to gas causing a big explosion as the vapor expands.

But maybe division affects intramolecular bonds/atomic bonds, or something else entirely. Breaking apart intramolecular bonds might be a bit too overpowered though. Lots of elements are highly reactive in their elemental state. Salt for example would produce deadly chlorine gas and elemental sodium which would react strongly with water. Pretty much any compound containing alkali metals would produce some terrifying results.

Cohesion could maybe just affect the strength of an intermolecular bond, not break it entirely. Though that might be a distinction without a difference.

Well Belzedar posited that Division was reducing molecular cohesion, like you say. They posited that Division and Cohesion both affected molecular cohesion. They felt that they were opposites, so I felt that since one end can split things apart, the other could bind things together.

On the note of being overpowered, Illumination, which Shallan uses for Lightweaving, has the potential to alter light waves into a laser (like the Death Star, oh wait :)) but the Stormlight required would be ridiculous, not to mention her lacking the technical prowess to even comprehend a laser. I can totally see Division being able to split molecular/atomic bonds, but either not in any huge capacity due to available Stormlight (atomic scalpel anybody?), or not actually at the molecular/atomic level until they can actually envision the concept.

As for your last point, maybe Cohesion can't go any lower than normal molecular cohesion, and Division can't go any higher than normal.

Edit: Current times could have Division be something more like an acid, eating away at something. Assuming they understand acids in their world..

Edited by The One Who Connects
Idea.
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Yep, nothing's overpowered if it's got a finite power supply. Brandon's 2nd law in action.

But I was just speculating about Division being a disintegration effect. It could just as easily be the opposite of Adhesion; the way Kaladin sticks things together by creating a force of attraction, maybe Dustbringers can keep two objects apart by creating repulsion. Like turning any two objects (or people) into same-charge particles.

But I lean toward disintegration because of this quote from WoR:

Quote

And when they were spoken of by the common folk, the Releasers claimed to be misjudged because of the dreadful nature of their power;  

And this one, from the Aharietiam prelude:

Quote

Smoke curled from the occasional patches of growth or heaps of burning corpses. Even some sections of rock smoldered. The Dustbringers had done their work well.

The power of the Dustbringers was "dreadful," and can burn things, including rocks. Since molecular bonds are a form of energy storage, breaking them releases heat. If you disintegrated part of a person, the remaining part would probably be scorched. Maybe division surgebinders are like human lightsabers, vaporizing and cauterizing everything they touch. (Although I guess that would be redundant if they have shardblades...)

Then again... that's just assuming that these quotes refer to Division. The Dustbringers' other surge is Abrasion, which I assume is relatively benign because of how Lift uses it. All she does is reduce friction. Nothing too dreadful about that. But I suppose you could also achieve some pretty terrible burning effects by increasing friction. 

Edited by Belzedar
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I see Cohesion as the ability of related objects to interact in concert. Hence an army unit, even with each individual separated by space, could be cohesive, or not...but a person and a rock, with the person walking on a rock field, can't be said to be cohesive, and if you separate them by distance...even less so (if it were possible to make impossible less possible)

At a molecular level, that means Cohesion would affect the ability of a persons cells to act in concert...so if KR empowered those cells to no longer work in concert, the KR would (effectively) stun the person, or knock them out, or cause them to faint (but as the KR doesn't affect the cells adherent qualities - they can't dissolve a person)

To clarify the comparison to Adhesion...When I think of two molecules sticking / being attracted to each other, I think of that as Adhering to one another (ie. Adhesion) rather than Cohering (ie Cohesion)...but how they move / interact together, is how they Cohere together.

When I think of Tension, as how it would be used in SA, I think of water surface tension - which is a tension that like molecules / cells / interlinked objects  create together. Hence a cloth could become armour (cloth being interlinked cells), water could be walked on, and air...air could become a shield bubble (used in reverse, this is a prison bubble), or a wall, or a bridge (etc).

Given the above, an argument could be made for the abilities allowing for electrical discharge in certain circumstances.

Adhesion on the other hand,doesn't have the requirement of objects being related, or alike, in order to bind those two objects together.

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30 minutes ago, vikorr said:

At a molecular level, that means Cohesion would affect the ability of a persons cells to act in concert...so if KR empowered those cells to no longer work in concert, the KR would (effectively) stun the person, or knock them out, or cause them to faint (but as the KR doesn't affect the cells adherent qualities - they can't dissolve a person)

That's the cellular level, which is well above the molecular level.

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1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

That's the cellular level, which is well above the molecular level.

Yep. Thanks. Change molecular to cellular just there.

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But, just for the record, cohesion isn't really about things moving together. Both words derive from the Latin haereo, which specifically means "stick" or "attach." 

Adhere = ad ("to," "at) + haereo ("stick") = stick to [something else]

Cohere = cum ("with," "together") + haereo ("stick") = hold together

So, in describing a group of soldiers... if they always moved in the same direction, and turned as one, they wouldn't need cohesion. They'd stay together by default, like iron filings all incidentally caught in the same magnetic field. Cohesion is the force that holds the unit together when their individual whims and trajectories would force them apart. It's not about everyone agreeing, but about a strong leader, binding them all together. Hence... "unite them!"

And this is more speculation, but I doubt the physical surges will be able to function on the cellular level, because Rosharans (most of them, anyway) are ignorant of cell theory. Much of the magic on Roshar (especially the spren) seems dependent on the cognitive realm, shaped by human perception. Humans perceive discrete objects, and homogenous substances, but not cells. Sinew, for instance, is one of the ten essences, which are the native version of the four elements -- the fundamental substances which, in varying proportions, comprise all things. It doesn't occur to them that sinew (or blood, for that matter, or 'talus') is actually made of smaller units, like cells.

Progression (healing) obviously has cellular effects, but its exact mechanism probably isn't even in the physical realm. I think Progression-healers infuse the target with stormlight on the spiritual level. They give the soul the power to heal the body, and the soul itself handles all the nitty-gritty cellular level reconstruction. 

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