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1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Also, please don't strawman or incorrectly repeat my arguments, it's quite rude

Ok, so let's quote you directly, if you believe I wasn't representing your opinion properly.

 

9 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

We don't know if that was an original part of the Oathpact though,

We don't indeed, just as we were not told a lot of other things that we were able to parse out. In this particular case our evidence of what Oathpact was is very limited.

1. We are told it is a pact between Honor and the Heralds.

2. WoB explicitly excluded anyone else from it.

3. A recent WoB is that it turned the Heralds into Cognitive Shadows, which explains the whole death and resurrection thing.

4. The only other thing we have is the thoughts of Kalak and words of Jezrien.

So, no we don't. If you will, we may have two competing theories. Mine (for the lack of a better word) is that the Oathpact was a reaction to a threat of Odium put together in a way to ensure that Odium gets to fight his battles in the Physical Realm. It also states that what we see/hear Heralds do:

    a. fight the battles against the Voidbringers

    b. go to Damnation (or wherever) to be tortured (and go there involuntarily if killed in battle)

    c. reappear before the next Desolation

was included in the Oathpact.

The alternative theory we are discussing, yours (for the lack of a better word) is:

20 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

As I said above, the Heralds could've asked Honor for power, so that they could protect the Rosharans. This created the Oathpact, binding their souls/cognitive shadows, and granting them the honorblades, proof of the contract and the source of their power. Don't forget, Roshar is a very hostile environment towards humans. They would've needed help in order to survive the highstorms. Surgebinding and shardblades would've proven to be a huge asset. Soulcasting for resources, elsecalling for transport, adhesion and other powers would've helped with their survival. However, when Odium came and the Desolations began, then their role could've changed to fighters

9 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

We don't know if that was an original part of the Oathpact though, or whether it was a change which arose due to the Desolations. In fact, that might not even part of the Oathpact. They have to go be tortured in Damnation to prevent the next Desolation, not necessarily because the Oathpact mandates it.

I read this as essentially (a) Oathpact predates Odium's appearance, (b) original Oathpact was about creating civilization on Roshar, (c) when Odium appeared, Honor did something  to either update Oathpact to include the defense against Voidbringers, or the defense against Voidbringers is a whole different deal altogether (your words: "might not even [be] part of the Oathpact").

Forgive me for saying this, but it makes little sense to me. Allow me to explain why:

(a) Honorblades  make perfect sense as attributes of war and defense. If Honor was inducting Heralds to defend the realm, honorblades as elements of power are totally meaningful and also are VERY functional.  In the times of peace and building civilization why would Paliah, who heals and lightweaves need a sword to grant her those powers. Yes, you may point out that you state above the "Roshar is a very hostile environment towards humans".  But a sword is NOT the only way to counter such hostility.

So, it makes no sense to me, that all Heralds were given blades as part of the deal.

(b)  Jez and Kalak clearly think that their refusal to go to Damnation is somehow NOT what is envisioned by the Oathpact.  To me, this is the strongest argument against your statement that " In fact, that might not even part of the Oathpact".  You continue your thoughts here:

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The way I see it is that the Oathpact enables them to go to the Damnation and delay the next Desolation, but it isn't forcing them to. Kelek's internal monologue shows that even, that they always have the choice of going to Damnation or not. They do go because of their honor, because they swore to protect and help the Rosharans, because not doing so would entail an immediate Desolation after the one just passed.

and I actually do not disagree with the major part of what you are saying here. But let's take a look at it. First, you yourself are clearly stepping away from your "might not even be a part of the Oathpact" statement, because your first sentence above states "Oathpact enables them to go to the Damnation".  

What I agree with is that Oathpact does not require them to go to the Damnation. But "enables them to go to the Damnation" still makes it part of the Oathpact. Just because the imperative is different does not remove it from the agreement.  

I will also point out, that the Heralds who died in battle do not get this choice. They just go to Damnation. Which is why 4500 years ago, the nine surviving Heralds could get away with not returning.

(c) Almost everything that is attested about the Heralds is attested in the context of their fights against Desolations and their return back to Damnation upon the completion of these fights.  There is no written or oral tradition noted thus far (does not mean it does not exist, but we have not seen it, so it is difficult to make conjectures) referring to anything Heralds did that did not involve the struggle against Desolations, Voidbringers, etc.

To me, it is still more much more likely that the Oathpact appeared as part of Honor vs. Odium fight. Oathpact is a rather drastic thing. I am not certain that simply fighting Roshar's inhospitality to humans is a strong enough reason to turn 10 people into Cognitive Shadows. Almost everything else we deduce about Oathpact  and the Heralds is related to the struggle against Desolations.

Onto meta:

3 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Also, please don't strawman or incorrectly repeat my arguments, it's quite rude.

but also:

21 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Additionally, your argument that the Heralds were inducted to be harbingers of the Desolation doesn't have any support.

My exact words were

21 hours ago, emailanimal said:

They are harbingers of Desolations and the first line of defense (in many different ways) against them

which is miles away from saying that they were inducted to be harbingers.  So, please.

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