28 posts in this topic

So, I want to run this by everyone to see if I am repeating something that is generally understood.

Odium comes to Roshar. The goal is to Splinter Honor.  Honor knows this. He lays a trap. The cost of possible Splintering (edit: of Honor)  is that Odium must be  bound to the Roshar system and therefore not be able to leave and chase other Shards. Something Honor would do - put himself between the danger and those it pursues.

The Oathpact suddenly makes sense.  The way to keep Odium bound to a system is to have Odium Invest. How does one do it on Roshar?  Give up its Investiture to create a lot of spren. The more spren, the higher one's Investment.  So,  Odium, by Oathpact, can battle Honor, but in the way that bounds him: by Investing in Roshar, and fighting the spren war.

Basically, the voidspren, the Unmade, *any other object* Invested by Odium on Roshar, makes Odium's Connection to Roshar higher. Which is why there MUST BE multiple Desolations - Odium must be permitted to grow its influence on Roshar to the point of active war.  And this is why, short of Splintering Odium himself, this must repeat - if Odium's influence on Roshar wanes, he leaves the system and goes after other Shards.  So, Honor chooses to play a long and dangerous game with Odium, just like Preservation chose with Ruin.

Also explains Hoid's "I sympathize with you, Dalinar, but what I seek to achieve and what you do are not one and the same, and *my* goals are more important!"  Hoid wants Odium bound to Roshar.   Odium whose influence is purged from Roshar is free to roam elsewhere. Hoid does not want it.

The problem right now is that Odium has splintered Honor. Achievement unlocked. Now is the time to leave the system (or Splinter Cultivation and leave the system). To do this, there must be an all-out war that ends with destruction of all Odium's assets on Roshar (at the cost of a massive devastation), and frees him.

TL;DR: Desolations and voidspren are the means of keeping Odium Connected to Roshar. Odium must be kept Invested. 

This obviously skims over a lot of things (like, why Heralds). But overall, what am I missing?

 

Edit: It has been wisely pointed out that the Oathpact refers to the deal Honor made with the Heralds, not Odium.  I struck that unfortunate phrase. The rest of the point remains salient: Honor promises Odium a chance to take him out, but Odium must Invest in Roshar to be able to Splinter Honor.

Edited by emailanimal
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I think this makes sense - well articulated friend!  I think there was some kind of agreement at the onset of Odium and Honor's meeting in the Roshar system in which Honor laid out a chess board like you describe.  "I appoint my champions, the Heralds, to fight against your champions (which I assume are the Unmade).  If you defeat them, I will allow you to splinter me.  If they defeat you, you can try again later, but we reset the playing board."  That this requires Odium to keep investing more and more is the secret, as you've outlined.  I think this idea of champions is important, as Tanavast suggests appointing one to Dalinar in one of his visions.

I think as part of these rules, as Honor's presence and investiture increases (i.e. the arrival of the Heralds and in recent/ancient history the Knights Radiant), it triggers the release of Odium's investiture onto Roshar, beginning a Desolation.

Edgedancer Spoilers

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Nale feared that the voidbringers would be able to worldhop to Roshar now that Honor isn't around to regulate the investiture channeled into the Knights Radiant.  Perhaps this means that Honor knew the gentle balance it required to allow enough of his presence to prepare mankind without allowing the scale to tip, triggering a desolation too quickly?

What I don't understand is how Cultivation plays into any of this.  Did Honor agree to such a plan with Odium to prevent harm to Cultivation?

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My issue with the idea that Honor planned out the Devastation is that I don't see what Honor gets from it. Yes, he would be binding Odium and therefore preventing him going after any other shards, but the exchange is that Honor is essentially allowed the Rosharans, people he appears to care about, to suffer, for possible millennia. Also, the Devastations wouldn't be necessary if all that was wanted was to keep Odium bound to Roshar, all that would need to happen would be that Odium remains near Roshar, and he would naturally invest into it. Finally, you do mention the Oathpact, but do you think you could go into a bit more detail of how it relates to this?

1 hour ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

"I appoint my champions, the Heralds, to fight against your champions (which I assume are the Unmade).  If you defeat them, I will allow you to splinter me.  If they defeat you, you can try again later, but we reset the playing board."

How do you explain that Honor was splintered despite the Heralds being victorious though? Odium cheated because no Desolations had occurred? But then why wouldn't he have cheated sooner, if he had the power to do so? Also, it doesn't seem to make sense to me that Odium would agree to a pact like this since it almost guarantees that Odium would remain long enough to be invested into Roshar, something which we know he has avoided before. 

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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3 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

How do you explain that Honor was splintered despite the Heralds being victorious though?

I don't think we can say the Heralds really were victorious though.  I think Honor's champions, the Heralds, violated the rules by refusing to return to Damnation.  On a technicality, because one was forced to return, Odium remained bound, however because of this breach of honor (har har), Odium was able to splinter Honor.  Still, Odium was unable to send his minions to Roshar until enough of Honor's investiture reemerged in the return of the Heralds/Knights Radiant, tipping the scale to open the gates.

I wonder if Odium continues this fight because he wants to destroy Cultivation too.

AU Spoilers

Spoiler

I think Odium agreed to Honor's proposal because he thought it would be a quick fight and an easy way to splinter a shard, who agreed to be splintered if he could only beat his (Honor's) champions.  After exerting a lot of energy splintering the Dor on Sel and warring against Ambition (spanning several planet systems), Odium might have been happy to accept an "easy" path to destroying another shard.

Honor suggested it in the first place as a way to protect Cultivation?  That's my best guess at this point.

 

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26 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

My issue with the idea that Honor out the Devastation is that I don't see what Honor gets from it. Yes, he would be binding Odium and therefore preventing him going after any other shards, but the exchange is that Honor is essentially allowed the Rosharans, people he appears to care about, to suffer, for possible millennia.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, as it were.  Yes, Honor cares about Roshar and its people, but he also knows that there are other Shards out there and other worlds full of people who would fall prey to Odium's depredations were he to be released.  He sacrificed himself and his world in order to save many, many others, an act befitting the personification of Honor.

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5 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, as it were.  Yes, Honor cares about Roshar and its people, but he also knows that there are other Shards out there and other worlds full of people who would fall prey to Odium's depredations were he to be released.  He sacrificed himself and his world in order to save many, many others, an act befitting the personification of Honor.

Except that as far as we've seen, killing shards hasn't had much effect on the world they were invested in.

Elantris Spoilers

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Sel is fine, D&D were defeated during pre-history and the world moved on without Skai and Aona. The investiture the shards leave behind continues the will of the vessel. 

In addition, as per the AU/Mistborn (Spoilers), 

Spoiler

The fight between Ambition and Odium was spiritual. They never broke the physical realm. We even saw a fight between shards, and the physical realm continued without pause. No one noticed Vin and Ati fight, the world didn't break or anything.

26 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I don't think we can say the Heralds really were victorious though.  I think Honor's champions, the Heralds, violated the rules by refusing to return to Damnation.  On a technicality, because one was forced to return, Odium remained bound, however because of this breach of honor (har har), Odium was able to splinter Honor.  Still, Odium was unable to send his minions to Roshar until enough of Honor's investiture reemerged in the return of the Heralds/Knights Radiant, tipping the scale to open the gates.

I wonder if Odium continues this fight because he wants to destroy Cultivation too.

AU Spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

I think Odium agreed to Honor's proposal because he thought it would be a quick fight and an easy way to splinter a shard, who agreed to be splintered if he could only beat his (Honor's) champions.  After exerting a lot of energy splintering the Dor on Sel and warring against Ambition (spanning several planet systems), Odium might have been happy to accept an "easy" path to destroying another shard.

Honor suggested it in the first place as a way to protect Cultivation?  That's my best guess at this point.

 

 

Possibly I suppose, but then it resides on the assumption that Rayse is ignorant enough to assume a quick win would happen. Since he's been described as crafty, and has figured out a way to effectively defeat shards, I don't see how he would be gullible enough to fall for Honor's offer. Playing by the rules doesn't seem his style, and willingly taking a path which would also force him to invest into a world goes against what we have been told of him. Overall, I just can't see anything in what we know of Odium's character which would make him accept such an offering, instead of just directly attacking Honor. This is why it seems more likely that being bound there never occurred with his willingness.

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7 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Except that as far as we've seen, killing shards hasn't had much effect on the world they were invested in.

Elantris Spoilers

  Hide contents

Sel is fine, D&D were defeated during pre-history and the world moved on without Skai and Aona. The investiture the shards leave behind continues the will of the vessel. 

In addition, as per the AU/Mistborn (Spoilers), 

  Hide contents

The fight between Ambition and Odium was spiritual. They never broke the physical realm. We even saw a fight between shards, and the physical realm continued without pause. No one noticed Vin and Ati fight, the world didn't break or anything.

 

 

For now.  Odium's current goal is to be the only Shard - until all of the others are Splintered, he's got bigger fish to fry.  But his Intent is pure hatred.  Once he's the last Shard standing, I doubt he's going to sit back and say, "Ahh, that was a job well done!  I won!  I shall celebrate my victory and take a nap amongst the dandelions and ne'er harm another soul again!"  No, he's going to direct that hatred at the next targets, and all of the sapient races of the Cosmere will suffer. 

Because even though Rayse was well-suited to his Shard* and has had his base personality remain relatively intact, he is still driven by its Intent.  He can't help it.  Without other Shards to oppose him, he will hate and rain destruction down on anyone and everyone he can.  Honor knew this.

 

*This is scary.

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I think people often forget that the original Oathpact did not include Odium, and that his becoming trapped by it doesn't appear to be part of the original design.

Quote

QUESTION ()

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

QUESTION

Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

My take:

So I see it more as Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar. Heralds/Honor have Oathpact (I personally see this as these ten people being the leaders of various groups of "refugees" that migrated to Roshar, and requesting a way to protect their people from future threats. but this is just my personal headcanon, not substantiated in any way.) Jezrien says "We took up this burden willingly" so they obviously weren't forced into it, regardless. Odium later arrives and unaware of the Heralds/Oathpact tries to splinter Honor/Cultivation like he did Dominion/Devotion and it failed because Honor already has champions and it seems that invested people can affect the world in some ways more than actual shards, which seem to have limits on their power and how it can be used.  Honor/Cultivation start teaming up to try to resist and Odium starts going after the Heralds/Champions.   It'd be useful to get timeline on which came first: The Oathpact or Odium's arrival. Has anyone ever asked this?

I think Odium knew that creating his own champion would invest him in the system too much to leave, so instead he tries a roundabout way that winds up with the heralds being tortured off-planet somehow, but it fails from his perspective and he winds up too invested in the system to leave after all. This turns the Oathpact into basically permanent torture hell for the Heralds and Odium starts causing Desolations, using voidspren and Unmade (He's already invested at this point, so in for a penny, in for a pound) which also happen to threaten the spren who attempt to recreate what Honor gave the Heralds to protect themselves and we get Knights Radiant. Heralds blame Honor for getting them stuck in a hell they can't get out of and a war they can't seem to win (they note in the WoK prologue that the enemy is growing stronger, not weaker, which I see as Odium investing more and more into "winning"). 

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46 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

How do you explain that Honor was splintered despite the Heralds being victorious though?

and

4 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't think we can say the Heralds really were victorious though.  I think Honor's champions, the Heralds, violated the rules by refusing to return to Damnation.  On a technicality, because one was forced to return, Odium remained bound, however because of this breach of honor (har har), Odium was able to splinter Honor.  

Here is timeline:

1. Heralds were victorious 4500 years ago. They left, relying on Taln and KRs

2. At some point, someone/something caused KRs to abandon their Oaths.

3. Next thing we know, Honor was Splintered.  

So, there may be more impact of Recreance on the death of Tanavast, than of the Heralds winning. I think KR's abandoning the Oaths weakened Honor much more than Heralds doing the same.

22 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

Yes, Honor cares about Roshar and its people, but he also knows that there are other Shards out there and other worlds full of people who would fall prey to Odium's depredations were he to be released.  He sacrificed himself and his world in order to save many, many others, an act befitting the personification of Honor.

This is similar to how I think about it. Honor cares about Cosmere implications of Odium getting loose. That Honor bound Odium to the system we knew. What we did not know from the outset was "how" and "why Odium agreed".  My theory above kind of addresses it. Honor let Odium even the odds on Roshar (my theory is that Honor Invested in Roshar vs. carpetbagger Odium ends in Odium being defeated) by Investing in, and giving Odium a fighting chance against himself. If Odium saw no other way to defeat Honor, he had to take that deal. This is a catch-22, kind of scenario.  And "how" is the actual nature of the fight - it the fight between the Invested proxies of Honor and those of Odium.  Odium Invests into Roshar, gets connected, cannot live.

Honor wants Cosmere in which Odium is not a threat to everyone. His best bet is to set up the rules and hope that the circumstances are mitigated. Every Desolation throws civilization back into the stone age. But Honor is not Preservation - so he lets humans die. Cultivation helps new humans grow and partake of the battle when the time comes.

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2 minutes ago, Shlee said:

So I see it more as Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar. Heralds/Honor have Oathpact (I personally see this as these ten people being the leaders of various groups of "refugees" that migrated to Roshar, and requesting a way to protect their people from future threats. but this is just my personal headcanon, not substantiated in any way.) Jezrien says "We took up this burden willingly" so they obviously weren't forced into it, regardless. Odium later arrives and unaware of the Heralds/Oathpact tries to splinter Honor/Cultivation like he did Dominion/Devotion and it failed because Honor already has champions and it seems that invested people can affect the world in some ways more than actual shards, which seem to have limits on their power and how it can be used.  Honor/Cultivation start teaming up to try to resist and Odium starts going after the Heralds/Champions.   It'd be useful to get timeline on which came first: The Oathpact or Odium's arrival. Has anyone ever asked this?

I just reread the Prelude, and I revise my earlier comments from another thread - all Heralds indeed entered the Oathpact voluntarily.

Now, where I do not agree, is I do not see the need for Oathpact without the presence of an outside threat.  The thing is, what Brandon is saying is that the Oathpact was an agreement between the Heralds and Honor. Odium was NOT a party to THAT particular agreement. But I still think that the agreement was a reaction to Odium's coming.

Odium arrives. Tanavast and the Cultivation Vessel pick five champions and explain the deal to them. I am a bit fuzzy about what specifically about the Heralds burning in Hell makes it harder for Odium to act, but I suspect that it achieves some other form of Odium's Connection to the world - perhaps to Braize.  

So to me, Heralds and Oathpact are a reaction.

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2 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

Now, where I do not agree, is I do not see the need for Oathpact without the presence of an outside threat.  The thing is, what Brandon is saying is that the Oathpact was an agreement between the Heralds and Honor. Odium was NOT a party to THAT particular agreement. But I still think that the agreement was a reaction to Odium's coming.

Haha, I disagree with your disagreement. Because I agree that the Oathpact needed some sort of outside threat. I just am of the opinion that none of the humans are actually native to Roshar, and that sort of mass migration/exodus is usually spurred by something terrible. At the risk of a slight topic hijack here, we know that Roshar is unusually Cosmere aware compared to other places we've seen and I think that's because the Heralds (and their peoples) were worldhoppers fleeing some sort of destruction/cataclysm. Possibly from Ashyn, possibly from elsewhere, possibly Roshar was just the "place to go" if you were a Cosmere refugee.  Brandon has repeatedly RAFO'd where the Heralds are from, where they were born, and if they're native to Roshar. Now, if they weren't, then they had to have had at least some cosmere knowledge, and I'd say quite a lot if we managed to wind up with a lot of other things not native to Roshar, like "chickens", horses, pigs, etc.  That bespeaks bringing a whole LOT of stuff over with them. It makes sense to me that a Cosmere-aware group, fleeing a disaster, would request of the shards of their new home some way or power to protect themselves in the future. I guess I see the Heralds as somewhat analogous to the Night's Watch. They were just out there, watching for threats that the rest of the world has forgotten even existed. Whether or not that was Odium or other things is open for interpretation, but regardless, I can see the Oathpact being formed before he actually arrived. It's certainly also possible it was a reaction, but I don't think it necessarily has to be, based on the available info. 

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4 minutes ago, Shlee said:

Haha, I disagree with your disagreement. Because I agree that the Oathpact needed some sort of outside threat. I just am of the opinion that none of the humans are actually native to Roshar, and that sort of mass migration/exodus is usually spurred by something terrible. At the risk of a slight topic hijack here, we know that Roshar is unusually Cosmere aware compared to other places we've seen and I think that's because the Heralds (and their peoples) were worldhoppers fleeing some sort of destruction/cataclysm. Possibly from Ashyn, possibly from elsewhere, possibly Roshar was just the "place to go" if you were a Cosmere refugee.  Brandon has repeatedly RAFO'd where the Heralds are from, where they were born, and if they're native to Roshar. Now, if they weren't, then they had to have had at least some cosmere knowledge, and I'd say quite a lot if we managed to wind up with a lot of other things not native to Roshar, like "chickens", horses, pigs, etc.  That bespeaks bringing a whole LOT of stuff over with them. It makes sense to me that a Cosmere-aware group, fleeing a disaster, would request of the shards of their new home some way or power to protect themselves in the future. I guess I see the Heralds as somewhat analogous to the Night's Watch. They were just out there, watching for threats that the rest of the world has forgotten even existed. Whether or not that was Odium or other things is open for interpretation, but regardless, I can see the Oathpact being formed before he actually arrived. It's certainly also possible it was a reaction, but I don't think it necessarily has to be, based on the available info. 

I, in turn, agree with most of your narrative, as it parallels the things I've been thinkng for a long time, and writing.. well, as recently as earlier today in a different thread (the Irali Long Trail discussion).  I even agree that Heralds may have been from the first generation that migrated to Roshar, although I am not certain that all races settled at the same time.  But I am not certain that I am ready to draw the conclusion that the resettlement itself qualified the creation of 10 Cognitive Shadows whose role is to be tormented in hell for eternity. Something does not compute here, because remember - the Heralds were not inducted to lead the Rosharians in the time of peace. They are harbingers of Desolations and the first line of defense (in many different ways) against them. But once the battle is won, they go to literal Damnation. This means that their raison d'etre is the battle itself. Which to me means that Odium was in the picture when Tanavast told Jez "you are it".

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26 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

For now.  Odium's current goal is to be the only Shard - until all of the others are Splintered, he's got bigger fish to fry.  But his Intent is pure hatred.  Once he's the last Shard standing, I doubt he's going to sit back and say, "Ahh, that was a job well done!  I won!  I shall celebrate my victory and take a nap amongst the dandelions and ne'er harm another soul again!"  No, he's going to direct that hatred at the next targets, and all of the sapient races of the Cosmere will suffer. 

Because even though Rayse was well-suited to his Shard* and has had his base personality remain relatively intact, he is still driven by its Intent.  He can't help it.  Without other Shards to oppose him, he will hate and rain destruction down on anyone and everyone he can.  Honor knew this.

 

*This is scary.

Don't sidestep my argument. We're not talking about what Odium is going to do afterwards, we're talking about why Honor was willing to sacrifice his people when it likely wouldn't have prevented anyone save other shards from being harmed at that time. Yes, afterwards Odium might destroy everything, except he wouldn't while Honor is still around. Therefore, inviting Odium to kill your people and possibly you could be construed as accelerating the process, instead of just preparing to defend yourself from his attacks, and is overall illogical. Also, overall, I don't understand the argument that seems to consist of Odium equals destruction. Odium is seeking to destroy other shards because Rayse is selfish and hates the idea of a power opposing him. Once he splinters all the other shards and sequesters their power away so that no one else can use it to ascend, he would have no reason to destroy anything else. 

37 minutes ago, Shlee said:

 

I think people often forget that the original Oathpact did not include Odium, and that his becoming trapped by it doesn't appear to be part of the original design.

Quote

QUESTION ()

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

QUESTION

Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

My take:

So I see it more as Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar. Heralds/Honor have Oathpact (I personally see this as these ten people being the leaders of various groups of "refugees" that migrated to Roshar, and requesting a way to protect their people from future threats. but this is just my personal headcanon, not substantiated in any way.) Jezrien says "We took up this burden willingly" so they obviously weren't forced into it, regardless. Odium later arrives and unaware of the Heralds/Oathpact tries to splinter Honor/Cultivation like he did Dominion/Devotion and it failed because Honor already has champions and it seems that invested people can affect the world in some ways more than actual shards, which seem to have limits on their power and how it can be used.  Honor/Cultivation start teaming up to try to resist and Odium starts going after the Heralds/Champions.   It'd be useful to get timeline on which came first: The Oathpact or Odium's arrival. Has anyone ever asked this?

 

These are my thoughts on it to. The Heralds asked Honor for power to guide and protect the people of Roshar, so Honor created the Oathpact and gave them the Honorblades so that they would have the power to do so. 

8 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

I, in turn, agree with most of your narrative, as it parallels the things I've been thinkng for a long time, and writing.. well, as recently as earlier today in a different thread (the Irali Long Trail discussion).  I even agree that Heralds may have been from the first generation that migrated to Roshar, although I am not certain that all races settled at the same time.  But I am not certain that I am ready to draw the conclusion that the resettlement itself qualified the creation of 10 Cognitive Shadows whose role is to be tormented in hell for eternity. Something does not compute here, because remember - the Heralds were not inducted to lead the Rosharians in the time of peace. They are harbingers of Desolations and the first line of defense (in many different ways) against them. But once the battle is won, they go to literal Damnation. This means that their raison d'etre is the battle itself. Which to me means that Odium was in the picture when Tanavast told Jez "you are it".

Not necessarily. As I said above, the Heralds could've asked Honor for power, so that they could protect the Rosharans. This created the Oathpact, binding their souls/cognitive shadows, and granting them the honorblades, proof of the contract and the source of their power. Don't forget, Roshar is a very hostile environment towards humans. They would've needed help in order to survive the highstorms. Surgebinding and shardblades would've proven to be a huge asset. Soulcasting for resources, elsecalling for transport, adhesion and other powers would've helped with their survival. However, when Odium came and the Desolations began, then their role could've changed to fighters. Additionally, your argument that the Heralds were inducted to be harbingers of the Desolation doesn't have any support. We don't actually know why the Heralds originally became Heralds, we just know what they did during the Desolation. So overall, that doesn't really tell us anything. 

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5 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Don't sidestep my argument. We're not talking about what Odium is going to do afterwards, we're talking about why Honor was willing to sacrifice his people when it likely wouldn't have prevented anyone save other shards from being harmed at that time. Yes, afterwards Odium might destroy everything, except he wouldn't while Honor is still around. Therefore, inviting Odium to kill your people and possibly you could be construed as accelerating the process, instead of just preparing to defend yourself from his attacks, and is overall illogical. Also, overall, I don't understand the argument that seems to consist of Odium equals destruction. Odium is seeking to destroy other shards because Rayse is selfish and hates the idea of a power opposing him. Once he splinters all the other shards and sequesters their power away so that no one else can use it to ascend, he would have no reason to destroy anything else.

I did not sidestep the argument.  I maintain that Honor was playing the long game - he wasn't concerned with just the near consequences, but the far-reaching ones.  The purpose of binding Odium to the Rosharan system was to prevent him from striking out beyond it.  So long as Odium is trapped, the rest of the Cosmere is safe from him.

The Merriam-Webster definition of Odium:

Quote
  1. 1 :  the state or fact of being subjected to hatred and contempt as a result of a despicable act or blameworthy circumstance

  2. 2 :  hatred and condemnation accompanied by loathing or contempt :  detestation

  3. 3 :  disrepute or infamy attached to something :  opprobrium

Used in Cosmere terms, Odium means Hatred.  Odium hates.  For now, he can direct it at those who oppose his power, but due to the influence of his Shard, it will not end there.  It can't.  He won't go into a massive destructive tantrum a la Ruin, but he once his direct enemies are gone he will continue to hate and find new targets.  No, for the most part, they won't be important enough for him to bother to kill.  But he will torture, oppress, and turn the Cosmere into his own giant corner of hell, because that is his Shard's Intent.

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19 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Not necessarily. As I said above, the Heralds could've asked Honor for power, so that they could protect the Rosharans. This created the Oathpact, binding their souls/cognitive shadows, and granting them the honorblades, proof of the contract and the source of their power.

This does not jive with "Be tortured in Damnation when your services are not needed" as the original part of Oathpact. 

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My suspicion is that they way Odium shatters Shards, is the same way the Recreance destroyed spren - you get people or Shards to act contrary to their investiture. 

For Ambition, he fought until he/she was less ambitious. 
For Dominion, he fought until he was not exercising dominion. 
For Honor, he would fight to make him unhonorable. 

So between the Heralds and the KR (both highly invested, perhaps the KR more so, by sheer volume) abandoning their oaths, Honor was splintered more because of them than Odium per se. 

I bring this up because Honor couldn't walk away from this fight, because of his honor. But neither could Odium, because of his hatred. Honor understood perfectly well what Odium was planning and purposely walked into it, because that was his nature. 

And neither he, nor the Heralds and KR could walk away, without damaging Honor. Fighting the long fight was the only honorable option, even if it cost everyone dearly.

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2 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

For Ambition, he fought until he/she was less ambitious. 
For Dominion, he fought until he was not exercising dominion. 
For Honor, he would fight to make him unhonorable. 

Did Vin make Ruin create something?

 

Edit: we saw Shards fight. It seems like the war of Investiture attrition. Now, Vin did not splinter Ruin, she outright killed both herself and Ati. But still, we have a precedent.  Although I will give it to you, this is a nice-sounding theory.

Edited by emailanimal
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10 hours ago, Kaymyth said:

I did not sidestep the argument.  I maintain that Honor was playing the long game - he wasn't concerned with just the near consequences, but the far-reaching ones.  The purpose of binding Odium to the Rosharan system was to prevent him from striking out beyond it.  So long as Odium is trapped, the rest of the Cosmere is safe from him.

The Merriam-Webster definition of Odium:

Used in Cosmere terms, Odium means Hatred.  Odium hates.  For now, he can direct it at those who oppose his power, but due to the influence of his Shard, it will not end there.  It can't.  He won't go into a massive destructive tantrum a la Ruin, but he once his direct enemies are gone he will continue to hate and find new targets.  No, for the most part, they won't be important enough for him to bother to kill.  But he will torture, oppress, and turn the Cosmere into his own giant corner of hell, because that is his Shard's Intent.

I see. Fair enough, but I still disagree. 

9 hours ago, emailanimal said:

This does not jive with "Be tortured in Damnation when your services are not needed" as the original part of Oathpact. 

We don't know if that was an original part of the Oathpact though, or whether it was a change which arose due to the Desolations. In fact, that might not even part of the Oathpact. They have to go be tortured in Damnation to prevent the next Desolation, not necessarily because the Oathpact mandates it. You're making a lot of assumptions and presenting them as facts about the Heralds and the Oathpact, assumptions which are not substantiated because we really don't know enough. 

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2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

We don't know if that was an original part of the Oathpact though, or whether it was a change which arose due to the Desolations. In fact, that might not even part of the Oathpact. They have to go be tortured in Damnation to prevent the next Desolation, not necessarily because the Oathpact mandates it. You're making a lot of assumptions and presenting them as facts about the Heralds and the Oathpact, assumptions which are not substantiated because we really don't know enough.

So are you. This is the name of the game, so, eh.

But me treating "Vacation in Damnation" as a part of the Oathpact and you saying "perhaps it was not part of Oathpact, but it was added later" are birds of same feather.

As for the actual strength of your argument, Occam's Razor suggests that what you are suggesting is too complicated. It also suggests that you and I have very different views on what Oathpact really is. To me, this is Honor entrusting Heralds with the means of defending Roshar from a very specific threat (Odium), and exacting a rather terrible price. My OP at the top suggests the motivation for that.  To you, it seems like the Oathpact was some generic "now that you have come to this world, here are some powers for you", which later, when Odium came got a  "but now I am going to send you to burn in hell" rider that was not part of the original deal.... I just don't see it happening. I reread the Prelude last night.  Jez's comments and Kelek's internal monologue strongly suggest that the torment  was part of the deal they agreed to.  Your argument that there were addenda and modifications, and the torment is actually part of a completely different deal makes things much more complicated than they have to be.

Edited by emailanimal
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12 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

My suspicion is that they way Odium shatters Shards, is the same way the Recreance destroyed spren - you get people or Shards to act contrary to their investiture. 

For Ambition, he fought until he/she was less ambitious. 
For Dominion, he fought until he was not exercising dominion. 
For Honor, he would fight to make him unhonorable. 

So between the Heralds and the KR (both highly invested, perhaps the KR more so, by sheer volume) abandoning their oaths, Honor was splintered more because of them than Odium per se. 

I bring this up because Honor couldn't walk away from this fight, because of his honor. But neither could Odium, because of his hatred. Honor understood perfectly well what Odium was planning and purposely walked into it, because that was his nature. 

And neither he, nor the Heralds and KR could walk away, without damaging Honor. Fighting the long fight was the only honorable option, even if it cost everyone dearly.

If that's the case, it would have been interesting to see how Odium intended to tackle Ruin. How do you make a pure force of destruction stop destroying things?

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@Rob Lucci Well, luckily for Odium now all he has to do is (SoS)

Spoiler

make Sazed take some decisive action, and Harmony is a goner.

 

13 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

My suspicion is that they way Odium shatters Shards, is the same way the Recreance destroyed spren - you get people or Shards to act contrary to their investiture. 

For Ambition, he fought until he/she was less ambitious. 
For Dominion, he fought until he was not exercising dominion. 
For Honor, he would fight to make him unhonorable. 

So between the Heralds and the KR (both highly invested, perhaps the KR more so, by sheer volume) abandoning their oaths, Honor was splintered more because of them than Odium per se. 

I bring this up because Honor couldn't walk away from this fight, because of his honor. But neither could Odium, because of his hatred. Honor understood perfectly well what Odium was planning and purposely walked into it, because that was his nature. 

And neither he, nor the Heralds and KR could walk away, without damaging Honor. Fighting the long fight was the only honorable option, even if it cost everyone dearly.

I really like this theory.

10 hours ago, emailanimal said:

Did Vin make Ruin create something?

 

Edit: we saw Shards fight. It seems like the war of Investiture attrition. Now, Vin did not splinter Ruin, she outright killed both herself and Ati. But still, we have a precedent.  Although I will give it to you, this is a nice-sounding theory.

We saw Vessels fight, and the Shards explicitly did not splinter. In fact they weren't noticeably damaged at all by any account we have. The fact that Odium has a method to shatter Shards (this process being what kills the Vessel, from my interpretation of the Coppermind wiki) very strongly implies that his method and the conflict we see in HoA are intrinsically incomparable.

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17 minutes ago, Krandacth said:

We saw Vessels fight, and the Shards explicitly did not splinter

Was it because they could not've splintered that way, or because a certain someone took up their power right at the moment?

Do we know what'd happened to Preservation and Ruin if new Vessel wasn't there?

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4 hours ago, emailanimal said:

So are you. This is the name of the game, so, eh.

But me treating "Vacation in Damnation" as a part of the Oathpact and you saying "perhaps it was not part of Oathpact, but it was added later" are birds of same feather.

As for the actual strength of your argument, Occam's Razor suggests that what you are suggesting is too complicated. It also suggests that you and I have very different views on what Oathpact really is. To me, this is Honor entrusting Heralds with the means of defending Roshar from a very specific threat (Odium), and exacting a rather terrible price. My OP at the top suggests the motivation for that.  To you, it seems like the Oathpact was some generic "now that you have come to this world, here are some powers for you", which later, when Odium came got a  "but now I am going to send you to burn in hell" rider that was not part of the original deal.... I just don't see it happening. I reread the Prelude last night.  Jez's comments and Kelek's internal monologue strongly suggest that the torment  was part of the deal they agreed to.  Your argument that there were addenda and modifications, and the torment is actually part of a completely different deal makes things much more complicated than they have to be.

I see you missed the deeper point of my argument. Unfortunate, but it wasn't very clear so understandable. I'll iterate it again now.

What I was meaning to point out was your habit of stating opinions as if they're facts. It's not a correct way of carrying out an argument, since not only does it does it slant information poorly, it will give the wrong information to other people who are reading this topic. 

You are correct though that my argument is as much opinion as yours is. I never said anything contrary to that. 

Moving back to the main argument. You are correct that Jez and Kele's commentary indicates that the torment of the Desolation was something they agreed to do. And it is, but I think you're slanting it too far to being a necessary part of the Oathpact. The way I see it is that the Oathpact enables them to go to the Damnation and delay the next Desolation, but it isn't forcing them to. Kelek's internal monologue shows that even, that they always have the choice of going to Damnation or not. They do go because of their honor, because they swore to protect and help the Rosharans, because not doing so would entail an immediate Desolation after the one just passed. Also, please don't strawman or incorrectly repeat my arguments, it's quite rude. Finally yes, it does make it more complicated than it needs to be, but turning humans into immortal protectors and binding an angry god isn't a simple matter.

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At the end of WoR Jasnah says that "God is dead" and Hoid responds something along the lines of "I think you'll find that he lives on in the hearts of men". Jasnah finds that remark very clever. It is my theory that part of Honor's trap was placing a tiny pieces of himself into the people of Roshar, (kind of like Preservation placing pieces of himself into the people of Scadrial) thus somehow insuring that the prison will stand even after he is dead. This would explain why Odium is playing such an active roll in the utter destruction of Roshar (contrary to his pattern of coming, splintering the shard, then leaving): to completely free it of the influence of Honor and the power that holds him captive. 

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3 hours ago, Krandacth said:

@Rob Lucci Well, luckily for Odium now all he has to do is (SoS)

  Reveal hidden contents

make Sazed take some decisive action, and Harmony is a goner.

 

I really like this theory.

We saw Vessels fight, and the Shards explicitly did not splinter. In fact they weren't noticeably damaged at all by any account we have. The fact that Odium has a method to shatter Shards (this process being what kills the Vessel, from my interpretation of the Coppermind wiki) very strongly implies that his method and the conflict we see in HoA are intrinsically incomparable.

 

3 hours ago, emailanimal said:

Was it because they could not've splintered that way, or because a certain someone took up their power right at the moment?

Do we know what'd happened to Preservation and Ruin if new Vessel wasn't there?

If you haven't read Secret History yet, I strongly recommend it.

For those who have, Secret History spoilers:

 

When Leras died, Ruin began the process of trying to Splinter Preservation.  It was Kelsier taking up the Shard that stopped it.  This suggests that a Shard is only Splinterable while it doesn't have an active holder.  So the Shardholder has to be killed before the Splintering process can begin.

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