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3 hours ago, AliasSheep said:

A quote from Joe in this post:

"I literally have in my notes that I trust Master Elodin because of the threnody pun he made. That's the level of trust I have for people on day 1, but I'm passing a shard to someone I trust that much, because I'm being lynched. "

I think that this implies that he passed the Shard onto Elodin.

This statement seems intentionally vague...it never specifically states that Elodin would get the shard...just someone he trusts as much as Elodin. Did anyone else make any puns?

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8 hours ago, Alvron said:

Joe did say that he was going to Invest in Elodin so the possibly new Culty doesn't need to reveal themselves as long as Elodin can confirm receiving an Investment.

As the last surviving representative of House Urbain (*cough* the House of Paranoia *cough*), I'd like to erase the possibility of Elodin-Joe collusion by asking Elodin to do a vote-swap on the next day. Good way to forestall doubters too, I think, since Elodin's investment should vanish whether he does or doesn't do anything (leaving aside the "Who is Cultivation?" question.) [Actually, GMs, could I confirm if Cultivation's investment also has a time limit or whether it doesn't? This is not clear to me from the rules text. @Seonid, @Elbereth] This, of course, is me assuming no one starts as an Elantrian, but I find this a tad likely, since some minor roles are bestowed by Endowment. (Technically, this doesn't rule out the possibility he could be Hoid, or Endowment, but then, at least it sets up one plausible case for us. I see the latter case as being less likely.)

This would also prevent an Awakener from having to out themselves. (I think.)

Other than that, I really don't see what would be the point of resurrecting Joe at this point in time. First, I generally like more robust confirmation of a player's allegiances before we do something like Return them. I'm not seeing this here - just chains of assumptions that have only been weakly tested. (One method of testing has been suggested above.) Even if Joe is Cultivation, returning him to life won't give him back his Shard, will it?

It'll just make him a big, honking target screaming, "HEY, I'M A PRETTY MUCH CONFIRMED VILLAGER, COME CONVERT ME!" to practically everyone, including Hoid, Odium, and Autonomy. Conversely, if you think Hoid, Odium and Autonomy won't find a returned Joe attractive, the problem is that the possibility still exists, since it essentially becomes about trying to outguess everyone who can convert people in this game. In a conversion game, scans and confirmation are a commodity, always offered in degrees, never in absolutes. All the more so for one like this. So I don't really see the point in that reasoning. (Of course, if you think Joe is a good player and you want him alive because of that, then that's a different story.)

Now, it's not to say we can't win with Odium and Autonomy, but the worrying question is whether Odium and Autonomy see their play as being with us. If it doesn't, then we're still in an awkward position anyway - and it's just worsened once you throw Team Hoid into the mix.

P.S. Let's keep an eye on those who voted. Squabbling over Day 1 lynches aside, I have a feeling at least some of those who voted were people who really wanted to receive an extra action.




Tenth of the Dusk slipped away. He was not appalled or shocked: not entirely. You did not live years on Patji without learning there were questions which need not be asked, without an appreciation for swift killing efficiency. He had his eye on another, though. He knew a fellow hunter when he saw one.

For now, he kept Kaikoa close. He did not want to lose hold of him, in this place.

He had come to the feast only because he was asked to. This place - this city - it was not his. He did not think he knew how to feel comfortable, even now, within the dense buildings of a city, rather than the lush, killing jungles of the Pantheon islands. They did not frighten him, those hulking men in gleaming metal shells. He had known greater terrors than those.

Still, Tenth was not reckless. And like most of the guests at this feast, he was hardly unarmed. The other guests were discussing the killing in soft, frightened whispers. Some of them were leaving, like himself. Probably to the worlds from which they had come. Tenth did not understand this. Why order everyone to remain in Silverlight, only to ask them to return to their tasks - some of which lay elsewhere? It made no sense.

Kaikoa nibbled lightly on his ear. "Hush," Tenth said, pre-emptorily, although Kaikoa had not chirped. He made up his mind. He would go: back to his world, back to his safecamp (he could not shed the term so easily, even now), and then he would make his decisions there. Khriss had offered a hunt. Tenth did not intend to go back on his word. But he did not like this situation, either. It was a nest of deathants, and if he'd known...

He left.
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ENDOWMENT DO YOUR JOB!!!!

Also why did @AliasSheep tried to convince endowment to delay joes return to when it wouldn't be possible (night2)

it could be a simple mistake but I am just pointing it out so that it won't go unnoticed in case it means something

Edited by harambe
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27 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

As the last surviving representative of House Urbain (*cough* the House of Paranoia *cough*), I'd like to erase the possibility of Elodin-Joe collusion by asking Elodin to do a vote-swap on the next day. Good way to forestall doubters too, I think, since Elodin's investment should vanish whether he does or doesn't do anything (leaving aside the "Who is Cultivation?" question.) [Actually, GMs, could I confirm if Cultivation's investment also has a time limit or whether it doesn't? This is not clear to me from the rules text. @Seonid, @Elbereth] This, of course, is me assuming no one starts as an Elantrian, but I find this a tad likely, since some minor roles are bestowed by Endowment. (Technically, this doesn't rule out the possibility he could be Hoid, or Endowment, but then, at least it sets up one plausible case for us. I see the latter case as being less likely.)

This would also prevent an Awakener from having to out themselves. (I think.)

Other than that, I really don't see what would be the point of resurrecting Joe at this point in time. First, I generally like more robust confirmation of a player's allegiances before we do something like Return them. I'm not seeing this here - just chains of assumptions that have only been weakly tested. (One method of testing has been suggested above.) Even if Joe is Cultivation, returning him to life won't give him back his Shard, will it?

It'll just make him a big, honking target screaming, "HEY, I'M A PRETTY MUCH CONFIRMED VILLAGER, COME CONVERT ME!" to practically everyone, including Hoid, Odium, and Autonomy. Conversely, if you think Hoid, Odium and Autonomy won't find a returned Joe attractive, the problem is that the possibility still exists, since it essentially becomes about trying to outguess everyone who can convert people in this game. In a conversion game, scans and confirmation are a commodity, always offered in degrees, never in absolutes. All the more so for one like this. So I don't really see the point in that reasoning. (Of course, if you think Joe is a good player and you want him alive because of that, then that's a different story.)

Now, it's not to say we can't win with Odium and Autonomy, but the worrying question is whether Odium and Autonomy see their play as being with us. If it doesn't, then we're still in an awkward position anyway - and it's just worsened once you throw Team Hoid into the mix.

 

 

I just read it and about that:

1) flimsy evidence is the best kind that we can have 

2) having a confirmed village for one cycle is very beneficial 

3) and most important ENDOWMENT CAN NOT BRING HIM BACK AFTER TONIGHT ( technically after day 2 but his ability only works during the night

 

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27 minutes ago, harambe said:

I just read it and about that:

1) flimsy evidence is the best kind that we can have 

2) having a confirmed village for one cycle is very beneficial 

3) and most important ENDOWMENT CAN NOT BRING HIM BACK AFTER TONIGHT ( technically after day 2 but his ability only works during the night

 

1. Unsubstantiated assertion. Try again.

2. Unsubstantiated assertion + wishful thinking. Try again.

3. Fair point, in which case Endowment has far better things to be doing. See: arguments unaddressed except by unsubstantiated, sweeping assertions.

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1 hour ago, harambe said:

I just read it and about that:

1) flimsy evidence is the best kind that we can have 

2) having a confirmed village for one cycle is very beneficial 

3) and most important ENDOWMENT CAN NOT BRING HIM BACK AFTER TONIGHT ( technically after day 2 but his ability only works during the night

 

1. How about trying to find better evidence instead of working with bad evidence?

2. I personally think that we should bring him back. He has a far greater chance of being good than being evil.

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38 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

1. Unsubstantiated assertion. Try again.

2. Unsubstantiated assertion + wishful thinking. Try again.

3. Fair point, in which case Endowment has far better things to be doing. See: arguments unaddressed except by unsubstantiated, sweeping assertions.

Hmmm let's try again now that I am home and that I can explain better ....:huh:

so about the first part . It is still the start of the game  so we can not expect anything more substantial than that . two players who theoretically did not have means to communicate  (considering that they don't cheat and talk to each other  outside of the threads and pms ) Agreed that one was granted investment of the specific shard that the other claimed to be and have had invested in him. (Stormfather that was confusing to put to words) I think that trusting that joe is a vessel is a logical assertion.              Even though that still doesn't explain why eloping let him die .... maybe offline ....

as for why joe let himself die I think that he wanted us to trust in him being a vessel  and have him come back ,I think that he had said something of the sort as a viable strategy 

as for the second ... rusts and ruin I didn't want to say it until day 3 but fine ...:ph34r:... maybe I am overthinking it and it could be wishful thinking but although having a confirmed village is moderately helpful as he can take the lead and be dependable                 Having a guaranteed member of the 17th shard like joe would most likely be in day 3  gives us a clear lynch as well as stalling the conversion ability of the shard for night 2 , as we stall for more information from our investigators , awakeners etc.                               tho that plan will not work now .....:unsure: 

as for the last it was mostly a mention to my previous comment about @AliasSheep'S misleading comment that we could wait for night 2 to bring him back which our kindly overlord senoid has said is not possible . Apart from that most of us have not depleted our items yet and vessels are already quite powerful, so I don't see the point in not having him come back so that for example ruin could become a mist born or smt as abundant as that 

anyway I didn't mean to offend you I just don't see any gain from leaving him to perish for no good reason  especially due to ENDOWMENT's possible inactivity 

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 I do not want to hate on endowment and I understand that some of us have responsibilities but if you have an shard that requires you to be active  a lot perhaps it would be wise to pass it on to some one sooner rather  than later .

 

p.s. Sry for double post but my edit button does not work for some reason

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3 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Other than that, I really don't see what would be the point of resurrecting Joe at this point in time. First, I generally like more robust confirmation of a player's allegiances before we do something like Return them. I'm not seeing this here - just chains of assumptions that have only been weakly tested. (One method of testing has been suggested above.) Even if Joe is Cultivation, returning him to life won't give him back his Shard, will it?

It'll just make him a big, honking target screaming, "HEY, I'M A PRETTY MUCH CONFIRMED VILLAGER, COME CONVERT ME!" to practically everyone, including Hoid, Odium, and Autonomy. Conversely, if you think Hoid, Odium and Autonomy won't find a returned Joe attractive, the problem is that the possibility still exists, since it essentially becomes about trying to outguess everyone who can convert people in this game. In a conversion game, scans and confirmation are a commodity, always offered in degrees, never in absolutes. All the more so for one like this. So I don't really see the point in that reasoning. (Of course, if you think Joe is a good player and you want him alive because of that, then that's a different story.)
 

 

Point of resurrecting Joe for me it's activity in this game, he was one of the most active players on the first day. I'm just don't want this game to fall in inactivity same as LG28. Also there can be possibility that Joe was Odium and Elodin now his champion (I know there really small possibility but let’s just guess it).

 

And I don't think that it's really big threat for us if he gonna be converted by Odium or Autonomy. And if he gonna be converted by Hoid it's even good for us cause 17th Shard have limited conversion (If I remember it right).

Quote

P.S. Let's keep an eye on those who voted. Squabbling over Day 1 lynches aside, I have a feeling at least some of those who voted were people who really wanted to receive an extra action.

That with what I absolutely agree.

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3 hours ago, harambe said:

ENDOWMENT DO YOUR JOB!!!!

Also why did @AliasSheep tried to convince endowment to delay joes return to when it wouldn't be possible (night2)

it could be a simple mistake but I am just pointing it out so that it won't go unnoticed in case it means something

Yes. It was a mistake. I also happen to be the person who pointed it out. So. 

1 hour ago, harambe said:

as for the second ... rusts and ruin I didn't want to say it until day 3 but fine ...:ph34r:... maybe I am overthinking it and it could be wishful thinking but although having a confirmed village is moderately helpful as he can take the lead and be dependable                 Having a guaranteed member of the 17th shard like joe would most likely be in day 3  gives us a clear lynch as well as stalling the conversion ability of the shard for night 2 , as we stall for more information from our investigators , awakeners etc.                               tho that plan will not work now ....

I don't see how having a confirmed villager for a single cycle is useful. Joe knows about as little as we do about what's going on this game, just because he's confirmed good doesn't mean he can provide any insight the rest of us couldn't or that any insight he does provide is right. And having a clear target for a day 3 Lynch isn't a good thing if it's Joe, because it means that our first day lynch was wasted. 

I agree with Kas in this regard. There's no point in bringing Joe back since there's not a lot of benefit to having a confirmed villager and even if Joe was confirmed villager he would be converted almost immediately by one of the 3 different conversion roles. 

2 hours ago, Assassin in Burgundy said:

How many Elims are there in this game? Cause if there's about five then there's basically a 1/5 chance that Joe's villager. Whoever Endowment is, bring Joe back. He's a really good player and is a huge help. 

A... 1/5 chance? Where is that number coming from? 

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The thing is that we loose absolutely nothing by bringing him back 

yes he is highly likely to be converted but it is a conversion that we can predict . Plus I'd rather that the shard had a returned rather than a mistborn or an elantrian .

 

1 hour ago, Arinian said:

And I don't think that it's really big threat for us if he gonna be converted by Odium or Autonomy. And if he gonna be converted by Hoid it's even good for us cause 17th Shard have limited conversion 

Not to mention that if he wasn't cultivation the real cultivation or he's invested could change the votes against joe's favor exposing him as a liar and condemning him.

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1 minute ago, harambe said:

 

The thing is that we loose absolutely nothing by bringing him back 

 

Yes we do.  We waste an entire lynch getting rid of him again.

1 minute ago, harambe said:

yes he is highly likely to be converted but it is a conversion that we can predict . Plus I'd rather that the shard had a returned rather than a mistborn or an elantrian .

What?  Why?

2 minutes ago, harambe said:

Not to mention that if he wasn't cultivation the real cultivation or he's invested could change the votes against joe's favor exposing him as a liar and condemning him.

When would this be?

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3 hours ago, Assassin in Burgundy said:

How many Elims are there in this game? Cause if there's about five then there's basically a 1/5 chance that Joe's villager. Whoever Endowment is, bring Joe back. He's a really good player and is a huge help. 

I think the number of elims changes depending on how many of us are converted

okay guys, I'm Endowment. I'll bring joe back. Jk. :-P 

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Forest was lit by brilliant light of thousand stars that shined high in clear skies. The air was cool and refreshing. Bonfire slowly burned between the wide  trees. I leaned against a tree and looked up to the sky,  it was one of those moments when you can let go of your thoughts and worries and just observe the beauty of nature.
Goal of my trip, a small village located near the lake called "Shining"(why, who knows? Not me), was no more than an hour's walk. But the weather was so beautiful, and the sky is clear that I just decided to spend the night in the forest (why not?).

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@AliasSheepas I said before joe is most likely innocent . Let's look at the facts 

joe pleaded innocence by claiming that he was cultivation and as proof he presented elodin as his invested, who was unable to reply in time and joe was lynched . This could mean a couple of things:    

  1. He could be saying the truth (which raises the question , why didn't he use his ability ? The answer for that , could be either that he invested early and couldn't use it since elodin was offline (cause he didn't respond to any of our pleas up until night came) or that he wanted to pass the shard and exonerate himself 
  2. He could be odium/autonomy and elodin his agent/champion but he would had chosen an active player and the point that I'll make in 3
  3. they are in cahoots and they are cheating.( but for that as well as in No 2 in the lynching process  the real cultivation could have changed the votes to reveal joe as a scum , but no one did .

In fact you have been pushing for his day one lynching quite a bit which iS kind of suspicious . Even though during day 1 we all agreed that any evidence we had in day1 was flimsy at best

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5 minutes ago, harambe said:

@AliasSheepas I said before joe is most likely innocent . Let's look at the facts 

joe pleaded innocence by claiming that he was cultivation and as proof he presented elodin as his invested, who was unable to reply in time and joe was lynched . This could mean a couple of things:    

  1. He could be saying the truth (which raises the question , why didn't he use his ability ? The answer for that , could be either that he invested early and couldn't use it since elodin was offline (cause he didn't respond to any of our pleas up until night came) or that he wanted to pass the shard and exonerate himself 
  2. He could be odium/autonomy and elodin his agent/champion but he would had chosen an active player and the point that I'll make in 3
  3. they are in cahoots and they are cheating.( but for that as well as in No 2 in the lynching process  the real cultivation could have changed the votes to reveal joe as a scum , but no one did .

In fact you have been pushing for his day one lynching quite a bit which iS kind of suspicious . Even though during day 1 we all agreed that any evidence we had in day1 was flimsy at best

You're missing out the possibility that they're both 17th Shard and so have a doc to communicate in.

And like I said, whether or not Joe is innocent is irrelevant now.  I've already argued, agreeing with Kas, that I don't think Returning Joe is worth even if he is innocent, because he's such a target for conversion.  I also think you've really been overplaying the usefullness of having a confirmed villager this early in the game for a single cycle.

I'd also like to point out that you didn't address any of my points or questions to you.  If you could do that that would be great.

Edited by AliasSheep
weird forum shenanigans
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Sure thing gon 

 I already addressed your  third point and I think that I did a storming good job explaining my point of view 

the other two are basically the same 

what I thought was that if he came back he was most likely to be converted meaning that the rest of us will not be 

And the shard would had lost one of there conversions  and as I said above I'd rather they take a returned that we know and we could lynch next turn rather than a shard 

edit : ps i am so meating iron eyes before dawn comes

Edited by harambe
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I will comply with any requests for vote manipulation as long as they are public and agreed-upon by the majority. 

33 minutes ago, harambe said:

Sure thing gon 

 I already addressed your  third point and I think that I did a storming good job explaining my point of view 

the other two are basically the same 

what I thought was that if he came back he was most likely to be converted meaning that the rest of us will not be 

And the shard would had lost one of there conversions  and as I said above I'd rather they take a returned that we know and we could lynch next turn rather than a shard 

edit : ps i am so meating iron eyes before dawn comes

Honestly, with every post you make I'm growing more suspicious of you. Yes, I have been rather inactive (although I have a whole list of reasons, PM if you would like to know) but your assumptions about the eliminator team and your rather flimsy, incoherent arguments,  your attempts at a casual, "friendly" tone and your strange knowledge of other things as well are making you my least trusted player at the moment.  

P.S: Meeting is spelled like this.

EDIT: Could someone link me to these "pleas" he speaks of?

Edited by Master Elodin
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41 minutes ago, harambe said:

Sure thing gon 

 I already addressed your  third point and I think that I did a storming good job explaining my point of view 

the other two are basically the same 

what I thought was that if he came back he was most likely to be converted meaning that the rest of us will not be 

And the shard would had lost one of there conversions  and as I said above I'd rather they take a returned that we know and we could lynch next turn rather than a shard 

edit : ps i am so meating iron eyes before dawn comes

Hmm, that's an interesting point.  That being said though, if we actually decide as a village to go through with that plan in the thread, that would stop it from working because the Shard simply wouldn't convert him.  (And then we could trust him.  And then they'd convert him.  And then you get an infinite regression of IKYKs and it's just easier to cut them off at the source and not bring him back at all.)

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Look all i am saying is that i belive that the less of us there are the easier it is for autonomy and the shard 

Plus i concluded (perhaps wrongly ) that joe is inocent and i thought that sharing what i came up with would benefit us as a whole 

Also it might be my personal flaw . but i dont like it when people disregard logic . having said that , i am new to this thing and i shouldn't expect to know things and should have kept a ower profile 

Also @AliasSheep xd xd xd i thought of the same thing but couldnt phrase it correctly . 

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Day 2: Unquenchable Fire

Quintus sprinted across the beach. First of the Sun was a dangerous place, and an experienced worldhopper - even one who had once been trained by Hoid himself! (though that was long ago, in a life so far gone that it seemed more a dream) - could find themselves in a great deal of trouble if they allowed themselves to become complacent. As he had.

The great sea creature heaved itself up onto the searing hot sand, vast maw snapping at its prey. Quintus rolled into the jungle, breathing heavily. The leviathan slid back into the deeps, leaving a track in the sand. He breathed a sigh of relief, almost calming down. That had been careless of him. He would have to pay more attention to such things in the future. The news of his old master’s return had apparently disturbed him more than he knew. He was still uncertain of how to respond to it.

His instincts almost saved him. Without even knowing why, Quintus rolled to his side. A bolt of fire, as hot as the inside of a star, streaked past him, igniting a twenty foot section of the jungle where it struck. Pulling out of his roll, he frantically searched for his attacker. He caught a brief glimpse of a shadowed figure, eyes alight with hatred more powerful than anything he had ever known. Then the second bolt of fire struck his chest, and he saw no more.



Quintus (Jondesu) was killed! His role and alignment will be revealed when he passes to the Spiritual Realm!
Jack Tormander (A Joe in the Bush) has been Returned!


Day 2 has begun. As noted in the signup thread, it will be extended for 24 hours, and will end at 2:00 PM, December 26th (Mountain Time)

gre_1482786000.png


The vote has been tallied, and the players overwhelmingly voted for 24 hour nights. All future nights in this game will remain at 24 hours unless specifically extended.

Player List:
1. Assassin in Burgundy - First of the Game
2. Master Elodin - Second of the Signups
3. Jondesu - Quintus
4. AliasSheep - Kelen Taldar
5. Darkness Ascendant - Kaldain Selblessed
6. A Joe in the Bush - Jack Tormander Returned
7. Doc12 - Silence
8. Kynedath - Desten Kyde
9. TheMightyLopen - Kaloo
10. Straw - Malum Farcimen
11. Young Bard - Serol
12. Magestar - Magestar
13. Alvron - Lorna
14. Dalinar Kholin - Sanya
15. Harambe - PUNisher
16. I_am_a_Stick - Stic
17. RubiksCube - cubefright archive
18. DroughtBringer - Ralar
19. Araris Valerian - Aralis
20. Arinian - Arinian
21. Zephrer - Tardeick
22. Conquestor - Farallen Oniz
23. Sart - Sam Trudite
24. Aonar Faileas - Nilan Izenry
25. Elenion - emissary of Mandos
26. Kasimir - Tenth of the Dusk

Edited by Alvron
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