theory The Chemistry of God Metals

[skaa]

On 2/28/2017 at 4:50 AM, Extesian said:

I won't make an attempt at a string theory theory, that's way beyond my pay grade

Pffft. Like that ever stopped me despite not being a physicist.

On 2/28/2017 at 5:58 AM, Extesian said:

I've got a "theory theory" theory. It could be bunnies.

I have it on good authority that it's atium that is bunnies. By skaa-logic, harmonium must be something else.

On 4/6/2017 at 10:35 PM, Pagerunner said:

Brandon chose real-life metals to use for Allomancy; he has built it using Earth physics. Harmonium has electrons, and reacts with water; that means it must fit somehow into the Periodic Table of Elements, which is structured around the way electrons organize and behave.

Seriously speaking, I agree that there must be real-life physical substances that Scadrian god metals at least mimic (if not outright are, albeit with Spiritual modifications), because they interact with physical substances. This is why I spent so much time in the past trying to figure out what atium is made of. If something can be alloyed with real life metals, then there must at least be electrons in that something that participates in the metallic bonding process. Similarly, anything that chemically reacts with physical substances (like water) must have electrons.

Oh, and speaking of alloys, do you guys think harmonium can be alloyed with Allomantic metals, and do you think that could affect its reactivity?

Edited April 8, 2017 by skaa

[Vecna]

12 hours ago, skaa said:

Seriously speaking, I agree that there must be real-life physical substances that Scadrian god metals at least mimic (if not outright are, albeit with Spiritual modifications), because they interact with physical substances. This is why I spent so much time in the past trying to figure out what atium is made of. If something can be alloyed with real life metals, then there must at least be electrons in that something that participates in the metallic bonding process. Similarly, anything that chemically reacts with physical substances (like water) must have electrons.

Oh, and speaking of alloys, do you guys think harmonium can be alloyed with Allomantic metals, and do you think that could affect its reactivity?

I've seen a quote somewhere that suggested that Branderson based Atium on platinum - although that might be wishful thinking from the name.  I can't find that quote now either.

As for Harmonium alloys, yes they should be possible.  Given Lerasium alloys are possible for Physical and Enhancement metals, and Atium for Mental and Temporal: it seems likely to me that Harmonium alloys will run the full gamut of all four categories.

[Pagerunner]

Since we're using cesium as our springboard for comparison, let's look at cesium alloys. There are some with other alkali metals (none of which are Allomantic, regardless of that sodium nonsense), but an interesting thing happens when you try to alloy it with gold or platinum. The cesium will actually form an ion and transfer an electron to the gold or the platinum atoms, forming negative gold and platinum ions (auride and platinide). Granted, gold and platinum are among the least reactive metals (which is why gold was used so much as currency, so your coins don't rust on you), but I'd expect the other transition metals to more readily accept extra electrons from a strong electron donor, since they have space available in their d-orbitals. (Granted, I didn't get all that far into transition metal chemistry.) That, combined with how harmonium is actually a stronger electron donor than cesium (i.e. much more reactive), I would expect harmonium 'alloys' to actually be ionic compounds, which we've already discussed as problematic.

[FiveLate]

@Pagerunner

This is a serious necro, but the topic came up in another thread and I came back to read this one again.   Something bothered me but I could not figure it out, so I read it again.  By the third time I started to get an idea about what it was. 

It had to do with my time on nuclear submarines, and the oxygen generator. ... colloquially know as "the bomb" by the crew.   I then realized that only covalent and ionic bonds were being addressed in this thread (I think).  

Water has many interesting things about it, but the one I am thinking of is its natural polar form and use of Hydrogen bonds.  This allows water to be split into its separate components very easily.  

On the sub we split water using electrolysis.  Potassium Hydroxide KHO was added to the water for the process.  Potassium is an alkali metal as discussed previously....and worked somehow as a catalyst...sorry it has been over 10 years since I thought about this, and I was a reactor operator not an electrician or mechinistmate.  

Brandon said the extra energy was coming from the spiritual realm and no hydroxide was left over.  What if the Harmonium acted like the KOH, without being an oxide itself?  The spiritual energy perpetuating the cycle while burning up rather than being a catalyst.  This would leave you with a ton of 2(H2) and 02 to use like a fuel cell......or make a nice Fuel Air Explosive with.  Thus addressing a power source and a bomb from one process.

Thoughts?

[Pagerunner]

1 hour ago, FiveLate said:

@Pagerunner

This is a serious necro, but the topic came up in another thread and I came back to read this one again.   Something bothered me but I could not figure it out, so I read it again.  By the third time I started to get an idea about what it was. 

It had to do with my time on nuclear submarines, and the oxygen generator. ... colloquially know as "the bomb" by the crew.   I then realized that only covalent and ionic bonds were being addressed in this thread (I think).  

Water has many interesting things about it, but the one I am thinking of is its natural polar form and use of Hydrogen bonds.  This allows water to be split into its separate components very easily.  

On the sub we split water using electrolysis.  Potassium Hydroxide KHO was added to the water for the process.  Potassium is an alkali metal as discussed previously....and worked somehow as a catalyst...sorry it has been over 10 years since I thought about this, and I was a reactor operator not an electrician or mechinistmate.  

Brandon said the extra energy was coming from the spiritual realm and no hydroxide was left over.  What if the Harmonium acted like the KOH, without being an oxide itself?  The spiritual energy perpetuating the cycle while burning up rather than being a catalyst.  This would leave you with a ton of 2(H2) and 02 to use like a fuel cell......or make a nice Fuel Air Explosive with.  Thus addressing a power source and a bomb from one process.

Thoughts?

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-40422013000800017

I did some quick research. It looks like the potassium has no effect on the reaction, aside from increasing the conductivity of the water. The impact comes from increasing the concentration of hydroxide ions in the water, since oxygen production is our slowest step in the overall reaction mechanism. A neutral metal won't cause water to dissociate more unless it is an ion; otherwise, it will form complexes with water molecules, which won't do anything during electrolysis.

So, an interesting idea, but looks like no dice without Harmonium ions. 

[Yitzi2]

If the OP's theory is true, then ettmetal is not an alloy of atium and lerasium (as alloying two metals does not work at the atomic level).  Anybody know how much evidence there is that it actually is such an alloy?

Edited June 27, 2017 by Yitzi2

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Yitzi2 said:

If the OP's theory is true, then ettmetal is not an alloy of atium and lerasium (as alloying two metals does not work at the atomic level).  Anybody know how much evidence there is that it actually is such an alloy?

I can't currently find it, but everything about the structure of Harmonium mentioned is based off of direct WoB. It is not an alloy, it's an element. 

[+Extesian]

8 minutes ago, Yitzi2 said:

If the OP's theory is true, then ettmetal is not an alloy of atium and lerasium (as alloying two metals does not work at the atomic level).  Anybody know how much evidence there is that it actually is such an alloy?

This is Pagerunner's expertise

But here it is, from the Boskone signing, Sunday signing line

Quote

[53:32]
Ironeyes: So harmonium, we have a working theory that the reason it's so volatile is because some of the subatomic particles are associated with Ruin and some of them are [of?] Preservation. Is that true?
A: Yeah, that's basically what's going on is that it's creating a very unstable metal. Now, it is in the nature of the Cosmere not a compound but an element. But, you could call it a subatomic particle sure. It's very volatile because it is in nature spiritually in contrast with itself. And so though it is a single element rather than a compound, the spiritual nature is not happy as it is, and you can set up in the physical realm, through reactivity things that would just rip it apart and really your energy is not, your energy in that is actually pulling from the Spiritual realm, and so that's why it can be so much more explosive than even the chemistry would account for.
Ironeyes: So it's not that the subatomic particles are invested, it's that they have a spiritual identity which causes them to...
A: Yes.
Ironeyes: So then it's not creating an oxide because after the spiritual energy goes away from the explosion[unintelligible] metal, right?
A: Right, and...
Ironeyes: So you can't find harmonium oxide in the water afterwards.
A: Right right right right. Because it's not, it's, yeah.  But you might be able to find something else, which is really relevant to the cosmere. And to Scadrial.
Ironeyes: So the core elements, the core particles, having extra repulsion causes them to have a nuclear potential.
A: I would not call it nuclear because it's not the same exact thing. But there is a cosmere equivalent, to... I mean, you could do nuclear power just the same in the cosmere, but since we have a third kind of state of matter, right, matter, energy, Investiture, you have a third axis that you know, you can release energy from matter, you can release investiture from matter, and things like that. So it's similar, but following its own rules that I have a little more... that are controlled by me, right. But are built on this idea. So once you add [unintelligible for a few syllables] that matter can now exist in this third state, you get all sorts of weird things, which one of the things that happens is, you can get an energy release in sort of the same way. A reaction, I'm not going to call it a nuclear reaction, but of the same vein.

 

[17th Splinter]

What if the atom is element 119, and the subatomic particles are invested with Harmony? The Harmony Investiture could make the atom more stable, while the actual chemistry would make it explode when it touches water. 

[Blacksmithki]

On 08/04/2017 at 8:54 AM, Vecna said:

I've seen a quote somewhere that suggested that Branderson based Atium on platinum - although that might be wishful thinking from the name.  I can't find that quote now either.

As for Harmonium alloys, yes they should be possible.  Given Lerasium alloys are possible for Physical and Enhancement metals, and Atium for Mental and Temporal: it seems likely to me that Harmonium alloys will run the full gamut of all four categories.

I'm not up to date on WoBs so I don't know if anything has popped up, so I'm going to assume nothing has.

Also, is the Lerasium and Atium alloys confirmed? I have no idea.

If it is, since we are using Cesium as our basis, how well does Cesium alloy with the metals used for the base 16? Would the increased reactivity change that? This seems like it could help resolve the question of whether it is Cesium with increased reactivity or another metal that acts like an akali metal due to it's instability.

I'm sorry I'm not looking it up myself, but I have no idea how I would find out information on what metals can alloy with others.