Renarin Kohlin

[maxal]

Just now, ANRILU said:

Or perhaps he can use Stormlight to "see"something after the fact? Kind of like omnipresence? Do we know if that is out of the question?

We don't, but it seems too much like Deus Ex Machina for Brandon to drop it on us. If such thing were possible, then we would have had foreshadowing before Brandon uses the plot. Just having his magic do something unpredictable and useful to solve a particular plot point without having given us, the readers, the proper rational just isn't Brandon's style.

I thus don't think it likely Renarin has somewhat seen Adolin murdered Sadeas. Guessing, yes. Realizing his brother is lying or withholding, totally within character and yes. Having actually seen it or having his magic somehow enable him to retroactively view it, no.

[Humpty]

Maxal made an awesome point. I believe we need to take the name Truthwatcher more literal. I also think Renarin sees current events as well as possible future events. I believe Renarin will be one of the most dangerous characters because of this. Think about how when Kaladin asks Renarin what do you do? Renarin then looks Kaladin right in the eye and says I SEE. I think this means that Renarin knows that Kaladin was envolved in the plot to kill the king.  I also think it was the truthwatchers that would direct the Radiants on where to go to fight.  How else would dozens of windrunners and stonewards get to a small village in Natannatan just minutes after midnight essesenses were released.  Even with all ten oathgates working at the time the female stoneward could not fly so it would be impossible unless the truthwatchers told them to go there before the event happened or at the very least told the Bondsmith of Urutiru and then he or she ordered them there.

[The One Who Connects]

11 minutes ago, Humpty said:

it would be impossible unless the Truthwatchers told them to go there before the event happened or at the very least told the Bondsmith of Urithiru and then he or she ordered them there.

I said something along similar lines in a thread about Radiant roles in the past Desolations. Even if they were told not to speak too much of visions they saw, you would think at least one would try to help out the Strategist in the command tent

[Humpty]

Am I the only one who thinks that the only person who is going to saying anything about Sadeases "murder" is his wife.  I do not consider it a murder per say. But rather just retribution for his crimes. Everybody hates Sadeas or however you spell his name. He is one of my favorite characters though.  I really think that they have more important things to worry about than trying figure out who killed a man nobody on Roshar liked anyway. It wasn't murder it was a 1v1 fair fight. The fact that Adolin covered up the evidence doesnt matter that much. Remember this is Roshar where strength of arms pretty much rules the day. This isn't mordern day america. The Blackthorn killed lots of people for simply speaking out of turn by his own words.. Adolin simply carried out a delayed sentence.
A little post script for you guys who think it was murder.. here is the legal definition of Murder............

The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse.

And since Adolin happens to have both a justification and an excuse that means it was not murder

Edited January 25, 2017 by Humpty

[asterion137]

4 minutes ago, Humpty said:

Am I the only one who thinks that the only person who is going to saying anything about Sadeases "murder" is his wife.  I do not consider it a murder per say. But rather just retribution for his crimes. Everybody hates Sadeas or however you spell his name. He is one of my favorite characters though.  I really think that they have more important things to worry about than trying figure out who killed a man nobody on Roshar liked anyway. It wasn't murder it was a 1v1 fair fight. The fact that Adolin covered up the evidence doesnt matter that much. Remember this is Roshar where strength of arms pretty much rules the day. This isn't mordern day america. The Blackthorn killed lots of people for simply speaking out of turn by his own words.. Adolin simply carried out a delayed sentence.
 

nah it was murder because it was against the law, as a skybreaker might say. Even if it was right it was still murder.

[Humpty]

2 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

nah it was murder because it was against the law, as a skybreaker might say. Even if it was right it was still murder.

Sorry but your wrong  I edited my post to include the legal definition of murder.  There is a huge difference between Justifiable Homicide and Murder

Murder is The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse. Adolin has both Justification and an excuse.

[maxal]

13 minutes ago, Humpty said:

Am I the only one who thinks that the only person who is going to saying anything about Sadeases "murder" is his wife.  I do not consider it a murder per say. But rather just retribution for his crimes. Everybody hates Sadeas or however you spell his name. He is one of my favorite characters though.  I really think that they have more important things to worry about than trying figure out who killed a man nobody on Roshar liked anyway. It wasn't murder it was a 1v1 fair fight. The fact that Adolin covered up the evidence doesnt matter that much. Remember this is Roshar where strength of arms pretty much rules the day. This isn't mordern day america. The Blackthorn killed lots of people for simply speaking out of turn by his own words.. Adolin simply carried out a delayed sentence.
 

Do not underestimate the fact Sadeas did have allies not to forget not all Highprinces actively support Dalinar. Whether we like it or not, Sadeas was a Highprince and while he might have been treacherous, he was a respected figure among his peers. His death will be seen as a treason, a vile act against a ranking figure within their society not to forget, assassination just isn't the Alethi way to deal with enemies. There is a recent WoB on the matter: removing a known opponent by knifing him in the dark just isn't an acceptable way to deal with adversity. Alethi will naturally seek open confrontation, duel or civil war.

I thus highly doubt nobody will care someone murdered Sadeas. They will care and they care even more once Adolin admits his guilt. Dalinar might have done much, much, much worst in his youth, but he always did it to people he was warring with in the context of a... war. 

We must also keep in mind the Kholins have many enemies. A few years ago, Tanalar, a grown man presumably in his late forties, saw fit to challenge Dalinar's teenage son to a duel for Shards just so he could humiliate him. This teenage boy got the upper hand and has continue his crusade by successfully humiliating several of his peers. While there might be those who won't care so much for Sadeas being dead, I bet many will care it is Adolin who killed him.

1 minute ago, Humpty said:

Sorry but your wrong  I edited my post to include the legal definition of murder.  There is a huge difference between Justifiable Homicide and Murder

Murder is The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse. Adolin has both Justification and an excuse.

Modern day definition cannot be applied to Roshar. Brandon has stated Adolin's actions were illegal, but not without moral support within their legislative frame of their world. In other words, there will those who will argue Adolin had enough right to evade the worst consequences. 

[Humpty]

Snorts .....arn't you the biggest Adolin fanboy out there? Although you do make a solid arguement. At worst it was manslaughter not murder . Most "murders" imply intent or premedation..

[maxal]

8 minutes ago, Humpty said:

Snorts .....arn't you the biggest Adolin fanboy out there? Although you do make a solid arguement. At worst it was manslaughter not murder . Most "murders" imply intent or premedation..

What does myself enjoying Adolin's character have to do with my argumentation? I might be his greatest supporter, but I try to look at facts in the most objective possible way. Independently of my personal preference when it comes to characters, I do believe people will care than Sadeas is dead and they will care it is Adolin who killed him. How it translate into consequences, it is terribly hard to predict as we do not hold all the data when it comes to Alethi laws.

Also, intent can be form on a whim: the second Adolin jumped on Sadeas, we could argue he had the intend to kill him. These however are arguments to behold in front of a modern day courtyard where a distinction is being made in between first degree murder, third degree murder and involuntary manslaughter. It is entirely possible Alethi laws do not envision murder in the same ways as we do which makes it very hard to predict how their juridic instances might react to this specific case. What we can try to predict though is how other characters might react, how the political scene might react as we do have elements to help us make a statement.

This being said, I really do not appreciate the attempt at discrediting my argumentation on the basis of "I am just yet another Adolin's fanboy". I also seriously critic the use of the word "snort" as a sentence opener: it isn't very polite nor respectful. In fact, it sounds downright condescending. I would advise a better choice of words.

[Humpty]

You seem to be taking this just a touch too seriously.  I used a snort b/c I thought you would be on my side of this arguement. doesn't really matter anyway the world itself is coming to an end. Absolute Chaos is reigning on Roshar right now... that's my main arguement the Alethi have like a Million other things to worry about. Everybody knows Sadeas is a snake and I dont really buy into the whole court case storyline theory. Also who is to say they will find out Adolin did it... Nobody knows besides us readers who did it. I am saying the storyline that makes the most since to me is appointing a new High Prince and moving on to more important matters. Although I do like Sadeas as a character.. His wife is the only person who will care.

also wasn't there a WOB where he stated outright that many of the Radiant orders would be fine with what Adolin did.

[maxal]

19 hours ago, Humpty said:

You seem to be taking this just a touch too seriously.  I used a snort b/c I thought you would be on my side of this arguement. doesn't really matter anyway the world itself is coming to an end. Absolute Chaos is reigning on Roshar right now... that's my main arguement the Alethi have like a Million other things to worry about. Everybody knows Sadeas is a snake and I dont really buy into the whole court case storyline theory. Also who is to say they will find out Adolin did it... Nobody knows besides us readers who did it. I am saying the storyline that makes the most since to me is appointing a new High Prince and moving on to more important matters. Although I do like Sadeas as a character.. His wife is the only person who will care.

also wasn't there a WOB where he stated outright that many of the Radiant orders would be fine with what Adolin did.

Ah well then this needs to be filed in the "Internet does not allow for body language and intonation to translate all too well" category. Just by going with the written words, I seem to have gotten the wrong idea. It sounded condescending, hence my reaction. Since you have explained you intended your words to be read in an entirely different manner, then I owe you an apology 

On a general manner, I am on any side wanting Adolin to get a bigger role into the story. When it comes to the aftermath of Sadeas's death, I do feel various story arcs would befit this criteria. I also think Alethi politics might be more complicated then we think and I am not convinced at all Dalinar won everyone's undying support just for finding Urithiru. I also do believe Adolin specifically has a target over his head and I do feel it would be likely many others would jump on the occasion to try to get rid of him. Obviously, I do not want Adolin to die, but I do wish for him to have an interesting character arc and those things add conflict.

As for the possibility of nobody ever finding out, allow me to use the book structure argument: Adolin has no viewpoints in book 3 or very little. It thus means any story arc revolving around him internally dealing with his guilt won't happen because we just won't get to read what he thinks. Therefore, nobody finding out would imply us, the readers, never reading anything with respect to Sadeas's death besides Dalinar commenting on how he is dead. This would be terribly anti-climiatic as we, the readers, do expect something to come out of it. Talk about a deflated balloon is the subject is never broached again. I still have faith Brandon won't do this to us, hence I think it more likely Adolin will talk and admit his guilt or he is found out, but I suspect the former, not the later.

Also, being inline with several orders morality bears no significance as to how other characters might deal with Adolin. Brandon told us while there are those who will applaud him, there are those who will think what he did was terribly wrong. Therefore, people will care: it won't pass unnoticed.

[Humpty]

No worries grain of salt and all that.. I will give you, it would be a little anti-climatic for him to not write anything about it. I just hope he doesn't spend to much time on the "murder of Sadeas part." Although I am a fan of Sadeas simply b/c he is such an A$$hole.. lol ..however,  I am looking forward to him writing about how Dalinar will bring men togather and the war with the voidbringers more than the killing of Sadeas.  As for the Adolin storyline the Death of his horse was probably the beginning of him being broken,  they will try him and strip him of station and title and exile him. Then he will bond a spren and become a dustbringer.  Even though I personally think he deserves a round of applause rather than a trial.

[Jofwu]

18 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin has no viewpoints in book 3 or very little. It thus means any story arc revolving around him internally dealing with his guilt won't happen because we just won't get to read what he thinks.

He definitely has at least a handful. He's one of the tertiary characters, which means he should get a few viewpoints in at least one Part. And Brandon suggests here that we'll definitely see what happens next. Killing Sadeas was a pretty big deal for him. I expect it will be the highlight of his viewpoint chapters. It's not going to be a major plotline for the book or anything, but I definitely think it will be addressed.

[maxal]

On 1/25/2017 at 7:49 PM, Humpty said:

No worries grain of salt and all that.. I will give you, it would be a little anti-climatic for him to not write anything about it. I just hope he doesn't spend to much time on the "murder of Sadeas part." Although I am a fan of Sadeas simply b/c he is such an A$$hole.. lol ..however,  I am looking forward to him writing about how Dalinar will bring men togather and the war with the voidbringers more than the killing of Sadeas.  As for the Adolin storyline the Death of his horse was probably the beginning of him being broken,  they will try him and strip him of station and title and exile him. Then he will bond a spren and become a dustbringer.  Even though I personally think he deserves a round of applause rather than a trial.

No worries either. I agree I wouldn't want the story to focus too much on "unraveling Sadeas's murder". As much as I love Adolin, it might get redundant if it lags for too long. What will happen to him, if anything at all, is still up for grabs: we never had a consensus on it. Obviously, many do think he might get exiled or disinherited. Many still believe he might attract a Dustbringer spren, but I personally think he is completely ill-fitting for this order. I also feel having him become a Radiant through the "usual means" would serve no purpose within the existing story. Considering Adolin isn't even a planned character, meaning he has no definite role to play for the ending climax to unravel, it seems highly preferable to have him become a Radiant through abnormal means such as reviving his Blade. He would then become an Edgedancer which I believe is the best fitting order for him.

I doubt there will be a trial. I am leaning towards believing we got it all wrong: there won't be massive repercussions on Adolin excepts those he imposes onto himself.

8 hours ago, jofwu said:

He definitely has at least a handful. He's one of the tertiary characters, which means he should get a few viewpoints in at least one Part. And Brandon suggests here that we'll definitely see what happens next. Killing Sadeas was a pretty big deal for him. I expect it will be the highlight of his viewpoint chapters. It's not going to be a major plotline for the book or anything, but I definitely think it will be addressed.

Tertiary characters can have many or very little viewpoints. Navani, I believe, is listed as one of the tertiary characters in WoR, but she remains a very minor one having only a handful of viewpoints usually existing to provide an alternate view of specific events. They do not make up for a character arc, not in the sense of characters such as Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan and even Adolin in WoR whom had something with a beginning and an ending which more or less related to him. 

According to the "plan", Adolin only has viewpoints in Part 4 which happens to be the shortest part within the book (only 80K words). This part also includes viewpoints for Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan, Szeth and one other. Adolin's entire story arc is thus squeezed within this already highly charged up part which implies very few viewpoints (I do not expect more than 2 or 3 chapters and less than 15K words: therefore not enough to truly make up for a character arc). All in all, Adolin's "role" has been severely reduced for Oathbringer which implies all prospective character arcs featuring him having anything resembling introspection and/or anything resembling a "focus arc" dedicated to him, as a character, are highly unlikely to happen. 

Thus, I don't expect Adolin's viewpoints to deal with the aftermath of Sadeas, not when they aren't happening until the very end of the book. By then, Sadeas's death will be a close case. What's the point of reading about Adolin feeling guilty for an event having happened in the last book 900 pages deep into the book? It seems rather pointless. He might have a thought or two, but I surely do not expect anything having any depth at all, not anymore. 

When it comes to the "what will happen to Adolin now" discussion, I personally feel the book planning, as presented by the author, seriously shrinks down the number of possibilities. Status quo now seems like the most probable outcome.

Edited January 27, 2017 by maxal