Renarin Kohlin

[Kanrei]

On 13/12/2016 at 11:48 PM, emailanimal said:

My reading of the old history is somewhat different.  This is how I envision it. Honor and Cultivation make home on Roshar. Perhaps move some humans in the process, perhaps not. Take over highstorms, kick off a new generation of spren, life is good. Then Odium shows up and is all like, I am gonna kill you. And it is difficult, because Cultivation and Honor are strong, and they are entrenched on Roshar. So, Odium starts attempting to weaken their bonds: steals Listeners away with stormform, basically is causing issues.

So, Honor and Cultivation put their heads together and figure out the Heralds and Oathpact. In the process, 10 people are offered the jobs - perhaps not all of them Roshar natives, perhaps not all of them are really *given* that choice. Honor picks dudes, Cultivation picks ladies. The Oathpact happens. Each Herald plays a separate role in dealing with desolation. Someone is a craftsman, someone is an organizer, someone is the strike force, someone is the healer, someone is the scout, someone is the CIA, someone is the last line of defense.... To me, Ishar as an entity, as a Herald is important after the Oathpact, not before. Before it, he may have been a wily priest, or a wise monarch, or a Mr.T.-style visionary. But the real impact is really, post-becoming a Herald/Cognitive Shadow.

There was WoB that there were only two sides of Oathpact, Honor and Heralds.

Some possible spoilers for AU essays

Other thing - I think Shards which Invested into planet are actually weaker then ones which didnt as part of their power is in planet.

So Honor and Cultivation wernt in necessary better position or that much stronger even that it was 2 - 1 fight. And Odium was able to kill and shatter two Shards Invested in same planet (Dominion and Devotion) before.
Thats the reason why I think Odium didnt want to Invest in any planet and fact that he did on Braize is because of what Honor did (I guess that with Oathpact Honor provided target for Odium's hmm odium/hate with Heralds) and that it weakened Odium (we know that if Shard spends time on planet it will Invest in it automatically and if he wants to move it takes effort to get back that power or he will loose it).
So fact that Odium is using Parshendi might be not cause but effect of what happened, especially that Odium further weakened himself by splintering and creating his own sprens.

Tbh its possible that Odium came to Roshar already weakened as he already fought Dominion, Devotion and Ambition. And fight with Ambition was quite spectacular.

 

[emailanimal]

56 minutes ago, Kanrei said:

There was WoB that there were only two sides of Oathpact, Honor and Heralds.

True. I've gone off on the Oathpact in a separate  thread, and I would like to revise some of the comments I made above.  Still believe that Cultivation may have helped pick the champions thoguh. The Oathpact is the "contract" that bound the Heralds to their new destiny - that was between them and Honor, because Cultivation doesn't do contracts.

Spoiler

Concerning your comment about the Invested Shards being weaker.

My full theory on the matter of Odium vs. Honor is here:

 

The TL:DR; version is that Honor wanted to make sure (a) the battle takes place in the Physical Realm, and (b) Odium is Invested in Roshar and therefore cannot leave the system and damage other Shards. Hence a cycle of Desolations - Odium must be kept Invested in the planet.

Back to Investing in the planet weakening you. Our primary evidence for that is Mistborn, where Ruin was a tad stronger than Preservation due to how each Invested in Scadrial.  Sel, is a slightly different story, the rumor (WoB) is that Odium got some help there.  On the balance I still think that Investing in a planet grants you a benefit, otherwise, any Invested Shard is suddenly so much weaker.  The example of Preservation and Ruin is clear: they are BOTH Invested on Scadrial, so the fight between them is essentially a battle of raw remaining power.  But look at Scadrial now. Harmony is Invested. The opposing Shard, whoever that (cough, Bavadin, cough) is - this opposing Shard is not going to just hit Harmony with all its might. The attack is subtle precisely because Harmony has advantage - any fight that breaks out is going to be on his terms.

As a result, I feel like there is a barrier to attacking a Shard Invested into a planet within the realm of that planet, that is difficult of an unattached Shard to overcome. We still do not know how Odium did it on Sel, but I suspect it involved sabotage of some sort (because of the WoB that Bavadin may have been involved).  So I still think that though Honor may have had less available Investiture compared to Odium, because Odium would have to fight the battle on Roshar (in whatever of the Realms), Honor (and Cultivation) would have advantage.  And the way to overcome this advantage is exactly like what happened on Scadrial: Invest into the planet, and fight on equal ground. But now - without the ability to leave. Honor' Gambit, so to speak.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2016 by emailanimal

[Kanrei]

@emailanimal I read Odium's Dilemma thread , I have some random thoughts below in spoiler tag but nothing major rly.

Ah, I think Odium didnt Invest in Roshar, I think we can be assume that he is mainly Invested in Braize (I think there was WoB that there are only Cultivation's and Honor's percend.... zz cant spell it, Shardpools on Roshar).

 

My reasoning behind that Shard Invested in planet is actually weaker is like that:

- shard is moving part of his power and its connected to place (I guess that rather Cognitive Realm then Physical)
- I might be wrong but I seem to remember WoB that just after Shattering Adonalsium Shards had same level of power but later it fluctuated because Investing into planets and intentional splintering themselves
- which explain why Odium, as far as we know, made sure to not invest anywhere-  he was able to kill several vessels and splinter their Shards. Even if had some help on Sel there is no information that it was open help, so in end it was still 2-1 fight and he won. Later he beat Ambition in 1-1 fight - here I guess that Ambition Invested in planet, and when he saw Odium coming forcibly removed his power to be able to move and lost part of it.
- we dont know if Shard can absorb back splinters it created - either way by creating splinters Shard further weaken itself

Your argument that Honor wanted to force fight into physical realm is interesting, but I kinda dont see why Odium would want that or b forced to do that. Even when Shards Invest fight is mostly in other Realms (I guess Spiritual).

As far as I see it, to make Odium Invest, Honor and Cultivation needed just keep him long enough in one place.
I have no good theory how they did it except maybe to give Odium's hate Heralds as target (my reasoning here is that Shard Intent starts override Ryase and Odium is easier to tricked into focusing on specific targets if they are made available) . My guess is that it was supposed to be temporary till Odium Invest and will be weakend and then Honor and Cultivation could beat him.
Something went wrong and Heralds got trapped in millennia long cycle of tortures(wasnt there WoB that Heralds wernt happy about what happened with them and blame Honor for that?) and Odium at end managed to kill Honor's vessel and shatter Honor. but I have no good theory what did happen.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Kanrei

[emailanimal]

2 hours ago, Kanrei said:

Ah, I think Odium didnt Invest in Roshar,

I actually think that the stormspren and the Unmade being present on Roshar constitutes Investing in Roshar.  Listeners taking on Stormform constitutes Investing. So, this is less of a conjecture at this point, and more of an observation. The whole theory came out of observing that Odium seems Invested in Roshar, and remembering Brandon's various explanations that once Invested, you can not leave easily.

This is not to say that Odium isn't Invested on Braize.

 

Onto  the hidden parts

Spoiler

Quote

Your argument that Honor wanted to force fight into physical realm is interesting, but I kinda dont see why Odium would want that or b forced to do that. Even when Shards Invest fight is mostly in other Realms (I guess Spiritual).

 

Well, this is what makes my theory brilliant, if I do say so myself ((-: (ducks)... Seriously though... The point I am trying to make with Odium's Dilemma is to answer this exact question.

First of all, we know that the fight between Honor and Odium goes on in Physical Realm, because this is essentially what Desolations are, and they take place in Physical Realm.  We do not know what goes on in other Realms at the same time, but at least we know for sure that they do fight it out through proxies in Physical Realm.

And you are right - we need to ask ourselves, why would Odium do that? Which is where my observation that is must be difficult for a carpetbagger Shard to dislodge/kill Vessel of/Splinter a Shard Invested in a planet, while fighting within that planet's space. Because the battle cannot just take place purely in Spiritual Realm, where there is no geography or time - if it were, Odium wouldn't have to chase Ambition through half of Cosmere. Cognitive Realm is an important stage of the battle too - must be.  But if you are a stranger in a strange land, it is harder to win even if you are stronger, because of homefield advantage of the Invested Shard.  So, my theory is that  Honor purposefully let Odium Invest in Roshar, and Odium decided to take that chance.

Think of Connection as the ability to stand with both feet on the ground. If both opposing Shards are Connected, the stronger one has an advantage in a fight. If one Shard is Connected and is standing firmly on the ground, but the other Shard dangles in the air,  relative strength is not going to be as important.

 

Edited December 16, 2016 by emailanimal

[Kanrei]

@emailanimal Thats big question, does presence of Shard Splinters on planet mean that Shard invested into planet?
 

 

Like you pointed out, battle for Roshar in Desolations seems to be mostly in Physical realm yes, but not Shards themselves battle but their Splinters.

 

For me it mean that there is something which prevent direct confrontation - one thing I can think of is that Odium isnt actually on Roshar but on Braize.
There are his Splinters on Roshar (sprens), probably some part of power enough to trigger magic system(or maybe Splinters themselves are enough for that), but most of his power isnt on Roshar but on Braize. Thats what I mean that he Invested in Braize not on Roshar.
If he Invested on Roshar, he should be able to come and attack Cultivation directly, same like Ruin and Preservation were able to fight each other.

BTW Sel example seems to contradict that sentence: " If one Shard is Connected and is standing firmly on the ground, but the other Shard dangles in the air,  relative strength is not going to be as important. "
Odium killed there two vessels and Shattered two Shard without Investing in planet as far as we know. If what you say was true he shouldnt be able to do that. Thats why I think its opposite -  Shard strength is whats matter, and Investing into planet lower that strenght so Shard which didnt Invest have advantage in fight.
But I understand your logic and for now just we must agree that we dont know enough about mechanics to decide which theory is correct.

 

Edited December 16, 2016 by Kanrei

[djammmer]

On December 12, 2016 at 5:35 PM, Jame Starmade said:

On another note he does does have his spren to guide him and tell him the dangers of telling others about what might come to pass

Although what we've seen with other Spren, is they often don't know, nor can they remember how KR things work.  If Renarin's spent had this level of knowledge... She would be the first.

[Jame Starmade]

While spren lose their knowledge when they come into the physical realm they still retain instinct. Syl's instincts told her what is right and she is able to council Kal based on this. It's the same with Pattern. He's been around a bit longer but he still instinctively councils Shallen. 

Whos to say that Renarin's spren's instincts tell him not to talk of the future with others. We see that he does know what he is doing at the end of WoK.

[FeatherWriter]

Oh, a favored topic for me! And not just because it concerns my favorite character. I've said my piece in pretty lengthy terms over here about what I think is going on with Renarin and his visions, but I tend to be of the camp that he is probably actually a surgebinder, but those visions are not normal Truthwatching. I fall in line with @Demiandre in that I feel that something is taking control of him and the fact that our Vorin characters constantly freak out about the future gives me cause to be concerned.

On 12/14/2016 at 8:55 PM, IntentAwesome said:

I had always thought Renarin's behavior during the climax of WoR was mostly because what he saw was so terrible/traumatic to witness. I had taken it more as a clue to just how bad things are going to get. And I think we have a recent WoB saying that was haven't really seen odium spren yet. Though, to be fair, we haven't actually seen Renarin's spren. 

While I do think there is an element of that in his reaction, what sticks out to me is that Renarin, a Vorin man who is extremely concerned about his masculinity and feeling like an outsider, is writing during his visions. I have trouble believing that's something he would do willingly at all, and according to Brandon, there is some kind of compulsion or involuntary nature that overtakes Renarin when he's seeing these things. I feel like his breakdown during the climax is him seeing the worst vision he's seen yet, but also us as the audience watching him lose control of himself and his body and the terror and despair that he feels as it starts happening to him. 

[Demiandre]

1 hour ago, FeatherWriter said:

I had always thought Renarin's behavior during the climax of WoR was mostly because what he saw was so terrible/traumatic to witness. I had taken it more as a clue to just how bad things are going to get. And I think we have a recent WoB saying that was haven't really seen odium spren yet. Though, to be fair, we haven't actually seen Renarin's spren. 

Weren't they written in glyphs, which are meant for men ? I remember an Adolin PoV were he tried to read it, but Renarin translated it first.

I just thought of something I'll have to check . If I remember correctly, the Thrill "vanished" for some protagonist at various points. Could that be related to fits Renarin has had ?

[FeatherWriter]

29 minutes ago, Demiandre said:

Weren't they written in glyphs, which are meant for men ? I remember an Adolin PoV were he tried to read it, but Renarin translated it first.

I just thought of something I'll have to check . If I remember correctly, the Thrill "vanished" for some protagonist at various points. Could that be related to fits Renarin has had ?

I probably really say "meant for men." While men are allowed to read and write glyphs, it's more of a only-when-absolutely-needed kind of thing, I believe. Using women's script is absolutely out unless you're an ardent, but even using glyphs is seen as feminine. Aside from Stormwardens and men who absolutely need to write, like Kaladin for his surgery training, I don't think it's a very common skill. I believe the reason that most glyphs are stylized to look like what they mean is so that men who can't actually read the glyphs themselves still know what they represent.

Quote

      Aunt Navani had just finished a glyphward. She stepped away from the pedestal, setting aside her brushpen, and held up the ward for him to see. It was painted in bright red on a white cloth.
      “Victory?” Adolin guessed.
      Navani lowered it, raising an eyebrow at him.
      “What?” Adolin said as his armorers entered, carrying the pieces of his Shardplate.
      “It says ‘safety and glory,’” Navani said. “It wouldn’t kill you to learn some glyphs, Adolin.”
      He shrugged. “Never seemed that important.”

We know Adolin, the son of a highprince, can't really read glyphs at all. Renarin is better at reading them, I believe, but I would doubt that he's had much experience at all writing. Kaladin's probably the best at reading them among our male cast, because he needed to read anatomy books while studying, which probably had non-stylized glyphs. Even Kaladin, though, makes mention of the fact that Sigzil writing glyphs would probably make most people uncomfortable.

Quote

    [Sigzil] continued to write numbers on his ledger. That would have made most of the other bridgemen uncomfortable. A man writing was seen as unmasculine, even blasphemous—though Sigzil was only writing glyphs.
    Today, fortunately, Kaladin had with him Sigzil, Rock, and Lopen—all foreigners from places with different rules. Herdaz was Vorin, technically, but they had their own brand of it and Lopen didn’t seem to mind a man writing.

I don't think Renarin would have chosen to do something unmasculine and borderline blasphemous by choice, as insecure as he is. I think he can read glyphs fairly well, since he tends to be fairly analytical and good at scholarly thoughts (much to his dismay.) As someone trying to learn Chinese, I can say that it's far far easier for me to recognize a character than to actually write them myself. Rushu, the ardent who inspects the first set of numbers calls them "sloppy" and guesses that whoever did it was "not practiced at drawing glyphs." 

I'm guessing Renarin was fairly decent at reading glyphs but had not written before much at all, until the visions forced him to.

[elezraita]

On 12/20/2016 at 0:47 PM, djammmer said:

Although what we've seen with other Spren, is they often don't know, nor can they remember how KR things work.  If Renarin's spent had this level of knowledge... She would be the first.

Glys, Renarin's spren, is male. A fact that is strange considering that all the other spren we've seen so far are the opposite gender of the proto-KR with whom they are forming the Nahel bond. I have my suspicions as to why Renarin's spren breaks the pattern, but that is neither here nor there. I just felt the need to point out that Glys is a "he". Please carry now with the fascinating discussion.

[maxal]

2 hours ago, elezraita said:

Glys, Renarin's spren, is male. A fact that is strange considering that all the other spren we've seen so far are the opposite gender of the proto-KR with whom they are forming the Nahel bond. I have my suspicions as to why Renarin's spren breaks the pattern, but that is neither here nor there. I just felt the need to point out that Glys is a "he". Please carry now with the fascinating discussion.

Oh there is a WoB on spren's gender and why it tends to be the opposite gender as the knight. I do not recall the exact words nor do I have it readily on hand, but I recall it had something to do with how one person perceives itself ad how the spren can complement it. One of the current theories is Renarin feels inadequate as a "Vorin male" which has made Glys express himself as a male. However since most people would define themselves based on their actual gender, then most sprens are of the opposite one. Renarin, it seems, doesn't view himself as an adequate man.

[elezraita]

17 minutes ago, maxal said:

Oh there is a WoB on spren's gender and why it tends to be the opposite gender as the knight. I do not recall the exact words nor do I have it readily on hand, but I recall it had something to do with how one person perceives itself ad how the spren can complement it. One of the current theories is Renarin feels inadequate as a "Vorin male" which has made Glys express himself as a male. However since most people would define themselves based on their actual gender, then most sprens are of the opposite one. Renarin, it seems, doesn't view himself as an adequate man.

It's possible. Honestly, I just assumed he was gay, but given the societal views on gender roles, and how Renarin can't seem to get over his inability to fit them, that makes sense.

[djammmer]

2 hours ago, elezraita said:

Glys, Renarin's spren, is male. A fact that is strange considering that all the other spren we've seen so far are the opposite gender of the proto-KR with whom they are forming the Nahel bond. I have my suspicions as to why Renarin's spren breaks the pattern, but that is neither here nor there. I just felt the need to point out that Glys is a "he". Please carry now with the fascinating discussion.

Thanks.  Wasn't sure... and had to guess to use the word he vs. she... not knowing.  So it is "he".  Interesting.

[maxal]

16 minutes ago, elezraita said:

It's possible. Honestly, I just assumed he was gay, but given the societal views on gender roles, and how Renarin can't seem to get over his inability to fit them, that makes sense.

Brandon confirmed the spren's gender was not linked to the sexual orientation of the knight. He said sometimes, it might be, but in most cases not. Bottom line, he told us having a male spren did not imply Renarin was gay. It did not imply he wasn't. It just isn't a confirmation, either way.

[elezraita]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Brandon confirmed the spren's gender was not linked to the sexual orientation of the knight. He said sometimes, it might be, but in most cases not. Bottom line, he told us having a male spren did not imply Renarin was gay. It did not imply he wasn't. It just isn't a confirmation, either way.

I figured that was going to be the case, but I still wonder about Renarin. 

[river]

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that the reason predicting the future is seen as bad is because when the Vorin church tried to take over they controlled the people using "visions" that only they could see. When you can get people to believe that you can see the future and you know the will of the Almighty, you can use those visions to persuade them to do what you want. So while the current Vorin teachings are that foretelling the future is of the Voidbringers, I think that in the time of the Radiants it was not seen that way. And why would a spren tell a Knight Radiant that they can't tell about the future if the old Knights Radiant could?

Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Honestly, you guys seem to know a lot more about this than I do.

 

EDIT: Ah, I think I missed something. Still learning how to navigate these forums.

Edited January 2, 2017 by river

[Krandacth]

@river Interestingly, this isn't clear.  The evidence regarding the "evil-ness" of foretelling is:

* The Vorin church says it is of the Voidbringers (probably for the reasons you state, at least in part).

* Syl says that seeing the future "is not of Honor" and shudders at the thought. This doesnt mean it is definitely of Odium or the Voudbringers, however: It could also mean it is of Cultivation, and we've seen how Syl feels about Spren mostly of Cultivation (E.g. Cryptics).

* The Almighty says, in one of Dalinar's visions, that to *speak* of the future is forbidden. Seeing it is not, *acting* on it or giving guidance based on it is not (presumably), but *speaking* of it is. This could be related to some Mistborn plot points, or could be related to the trope of those acting to avoid a known future accidentally bringing that future about.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Krandacth

[The One Who Connects]

11 hours ago, river said:

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that the reason predicting the future is seen as bad is because when the Vorin church tried to take over they controlled the people using "visions" that only they could see. When you can get people to believe that you can see the future and you know the will of the Almighty, you can use those visions to persuade them to do what you want. [ .. ]

EDIT: Ah, I think I missed something. Still learning how to navigate these forums.

You are half right on this point. With the Hierocracy was the War of Loss, where a person known as the Sunmaker brought the kingdom back together and threw down the priests. It was he who declared that "fortelling the future is devilry." In essence meaning that he changed Vorinism. 

Also, yea it takes a while to properly wander the forums, the wiki and other info sources. It gets better with practice.

6 hours ago, Krandacth said:

* The Vorin church says it is of the Voidbringers (probably for the reasons you state, at least in part).

* Syl says that seeing the future "is not of Honor" and shudders at the thought. This doesnt mean it is definitely of Odium or the Voudbringers, however: It could also mean it is of Cultivation, and we've seen how Syl feels about Spren mostly of Cultivation (E.g. Cryptics).

* The Almighty says, in one of Dalinar's visions, that to *speak* of the future is forbidden. Seeing it is not, *acting* on it or giving guidance based on it is not (presumably), but *speaking* of it is. This could be related to some Mistborn plot points, or could be related to the trope of those acting to avoid a known future accidentally bringing that future about.

1) See Sunmaker point above

2) I had forgotten that Syl had any commentary on the subject. Given that Honor says that Cultivation is better at future sight, I imagine that her "not of Honor" is exactly what it says on the tin.

3) I assume that acting on what you saw is allowed, because what purpose could seeing the future serve if you cannot do anything about what you saw?

3a) Mistborn Spoilers

Spoiler

He acted to make sure what he saw happened, which may be vastly different to trying to prevent what you saw

We posit that Shards whose Intents allow for patience and forward thinking have better future sight than others. While you may not get Shard level visions, I imagine someone who is more patient and forward thinking may have some form of better visions than impatient people. 

My point being that someone forward thinking enough to peer further into the future wouldn't be content to just accept that what they saw will happen, they will try to make sure it does/doesn't.

3b) I'll give you the tropes. There's only so many different ways you can handle a concept in literature.

[Krandacth]

4 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

1) It was [Sunmaker] who declared that "fortelling the future is devilry." In essence meaning that he changed Vorinism. 

2) I had forgotten that Syl had any commentary on the subject. Given that Honor says that Cultivation is better at future sight, I imagine that her "not of Honor" is exactly what it says on the tin.

3) I assume that acting on what you saw is allowed, because what purpose could seeing the future serve if you cannot do anything about what you saw?

3a) Mistborn Spoilers

  Hide contents

He acted to make sure what he saw happened, which may be vastly different to trying to prevent what you saw

We posit that Shards whose Intents allow for patience and forward thinking have better future sight than others. While you may not get Shard level visions, I imagine someone who is more patient and forward thinking may have some form of better visions than impatient people. 

My point being that someone forward thinking enough to peer further into the future wouldn't be content to just accept that what they saw will happen, they will try to make sure it does/doesn't.

3b) I'll give you the tropes. There's only so many different ways you can handle a concept in literature.

1) I think we're all in agreement here But good added detail about Sunmaker.

2) I agree here too, but some people take her distaste as an indication that it is of Odium. I was just sliding my counterpoint in there

3) + 3b) Yup

3a) Interesting, that wasn't the plot point I meant but good points to include nonetheless! I was thinking more of (Mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

how Shards can generally see and hear basically anywhere they focus on. So speaking of futures seen could give Odium knowledge he wouldn't otherwise necessarily have access too, being fragments of Cultivation's foresight, which is supposed to be better than Odium's.

 

[Watchcry]

Am I the only one who thinks that the little POV exposure that Renarin gets in the next book will involve his decision making process over

Spoiler

who to tell about Adolin. Renarin has the ability to see, after all. His next oath will probably have to do with balancing supporting his brother vs how much to expose about the real murder of Sadeas.

Thoughts?

Edited January 2, 2017 by ANRILU
Spoiler omission

[maxal]

2 minutes ago, ANRILU said:

Am I the only one who thinks that the little POV exposure that Renarin gets in the next book will involve his decision making process over who to tell about Adolin. Renarin has the ability to see, after all. His next oath will probably have to do with balancing supporting his brother vs how much to expose about the real murder of Sadeas. Thoughts?

I have had similar thoughts. In fact, I have had many thought of how it could play out and this happens to be one of them. I have posted, somewhere, quite recently, how I felt the Truthwatchers might be about seeing lies into others.

Small Edgedancer spoiler down below.

Spoiler

It seems to be fit with the Stump claiming she is able to tell when a child is "faking" an illness which can also be linked to Ym wanting to hear the "real stories" of the kids he healed... 

This has brought me back to Chapter 14, back in WoR where Renarin helps Adolin get ready for his duel. In the sequence, he asks Adolin why he torments his guards so much. He goes as far as advising Adolin not to try to lie as he'd be able to tell if he were. Renarin states he knows his brother too much not to see the signs of Adolin trying to lie, but what if something more is at work? What if Renarin can actually tell a lie from a truth, just as other Truthwatchers seem to be able to?

In this optic, it makes sense for Renarin to be the one to figure out Adolin is withholding information. He might very well be the one to uncover his brother's act which would force to figure out how to deal with it: does he tell Dalinar or does he try to find another way to help Adolin? Does he need to tell all truth and, more importantly, is it his truth to tell? 

There are a lot of interesting potential conflicts to write with the brothers: Renarin finding the truth and having to deal with it, Renarin learning to become his own man which would steer him farther from his brother, Adolin having to deal with Renarin now ranking above him, Adolin having to deal with Renarin getting all the attention, once again... How supportive can both brothers remain of each other when life trust a chasm in between them? How long can Adolin endure being the one who has to live by all the rules before he cracks down, breaks them all and ditches his uniform in a garbage can?

I say the Renarin/Adolin relationship might something very interesting to read about going into the next book as Renarin's new abilities may end up creating large conflicts within their dynamic.

[djammmer]

On January 2, 2017 at 2:23 PM, ANRILU said:

Am I the only one who thinks that the little POV exposure that Renarin gets in the next book will involve his decision making process over

  Hide contents

who to tell about Adolin. Renarin has the ability to see, after all. His next oath will probably have to do with balancing supporting his brother vs how much to expose about the real murder of Sadeas.

Thoughts?

Totally agree.  My initial hypothesis, was that Renarin's witnessed the murder.  But I like yours as much... He foresaw the murder.  What if it was both: he foresaw it, then he followed Adolin (in the shadows) to see if it would really happen, and he saw it.  I bet that is a big part of the evolution of a truth watcher... Is learning that the foresight they have is actually true.  Initially when he started foreseeing things, probably thought it was luck or coincidence.  It would take a number of them actually happening to believe that it is actual foresight.  What if he was still deciding how accurate / real his foresight was and that's why he followed Adolin.

 

so yeah, I agree with you.

[maxal]

17 minutes ago, djammmer said:

Totally agree.  My initial hypothesis, was that Renarin's witnessed the murder.  But I like yours as much... He foresaw the murder.  What if it was both: he foresaw it, then he followed Adolin (in the shadows) to see if it would really happen, and he saw it.  I bet that is a big part of the evolution of a truth watcher... Is learning that the foresight they have is actually true.  Initially when he started foreseeing things, probably thought it was luck or coincidence.  It would take a number of them actually happening to believe that it is actual foresight.  What if he was still deciding how accurate / real his foresight was and that's why he followed Adolin.

 

so yeah, I agree with you.

He can't have witness the murder: he was at the top of the Tower revealing himself as a Radiant at the time of the death. It is why the scene is so heartbreaking: while every other character is cheering each other over being the new members of the refounded Radiant orders, Adolin is silently having an identity crisis culminating in him snapping out of his mind and offing one of the most high ranking individual on Roshar.

I however do not think Renarin would get vision of Adolin murdering Sadeas: it seems too much of a small scale event for him to get glimpses of. I hardly doubt the important figures within the Cosmere gives a care about what Adolin Kholin does or not: Wit's entire reaction to his character is rather telling. Nice kid, but not important enough for me to be bothered with.

I personally feel, if Renarin is implicated within this affair, it will be as I suggested: he catches Adolin lying or withholding information. He sees. He can tell. 

[Watchcry]

On 1/4/2017 at 0:16 PM, maxal said:

He can't have witness the murder: he was at the top of the Tower revealing himself as a Radiant at the time of the death. It is why the scene is so heartbreaking: while every other character is cheering each other over being the new members of the refounded Radiant orders, Adolin is silently having an identity crisis culminating in him snapping out of his mind and offing one of the most high ranking individual on Roshar.

I however do not think Renarin would get vision of Adolin murdering Sadeas: it seems too much of a small scale event for him to get glimpses of. I hardly doubt the important figures within the Cosmere gives a care about what Adolin Kholin does or not: Wit's entire reaction to his character is rather telling. Nice kid, but not important enough for me to be bothered with.

I personally feel, if Renarin is implicated within this affair, it will be as I suggested: he catches Adolin lying or withholding information. He sees. He can tell. 

Or perhaps he can use Stormlight to "see"something after the fact? Kind of like omnipresence? Do we know if that is out of the question?