Trell is various Shards theory

[Sallin Zeras]

Yesterday, I finished rereading BoM, and the ending with Edwarn and the red-eyed Faceless Inmortal left me thinking the whole day about Trell, specifically about what Shard he/she might be. I know there's many clues that lead us to think that Odium is Trell, but, do keep in mind that at first, Trell wanted to use the Set to dominate Scadrial, which  does not fit Odium's personality. Then, the Faceless Inmortal told Edwarm that Trell now wanted to destroy Scadrial. I kept on wondering about what might have caused this change in Trell's plans, and I came up with a conclusion: Trell is various Shards. I think that Trell was another Shard before he/she got replaced or splintered by Odium. I have no idea who this Shard may be, but if my theory is proven right, I'm sure we have not seen the Shard yet. This theory isn't that solid, because the only proof I have is the change in Trell's plans. The only Shard that came into my mind when I created this theory is Dominion, but she is splintered already. I am totally excluding Autonomy, it can't be a splintered Shard, so it leaves us only with Cultivation and Endowment, but their intent does not fit Trell's initial plan, so if this is true, it's not a Shard that we know of as of right now. 

 

Let me know what you think of this theory, if you liked it or not, if you think it's right, or wrong, etc. I would really appreciate it, this being the first theory that I post in the Shard.

[emailanimal]

23 minutes ago, Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew said:

. I am totally excluding Autonomy,

Perhaps, a mistake.  Brandon, in commenting on Autonomy's Vessel gender ventured that Bavadin has been known by many deific personas to many people/peoples.

This, as well as the observations about the alignment of the original Trell religion with the Dayside/Darkside organization of Taldain, suggest that Bavadin has been involved in creation, if not proliferation of Trell on Scadrial.

At this point, it is not unreasonable to assume that A LOT of religions in Cosmere have been started, or co-opted by Bavadin.

23 minutes ago, Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew said:

so it leaves us only with Cultivation and Endowment

The most recent WoB is literally "Cultivation is alive and kicking".   So is, apparently  Endowment.

[Sallin Zeras]

Just now, emailanimal said:

Perhaps, a mistake.  Brandon, in commenting on Autonomy's Vessel gender ventured that Bavadin has been known by many deific personas to many people/peoples.

This, as well as the observations about the alignment of the original Trell religion with the Dayside/Darkside organization of Taldain, suggest that Bavadin has been involved in creation, if not proliferation of Trell on Scadrial.

At this point, it is not unreasonable to assume that A LOT of religions in Cosmere have been started, or co-opted by Bavadin.

The most recent WoB is literally "Cultivation is alive and kicking".   So is, apparently  Endowment.

But Autonomy's intent does not align with Trell's initial goal. Autonomy is literally the capability of a nation, place, etc. of ruling itself, so I don't think ruling a world would be Bavadin's thing.

[emailanimal]

14 minutes ago, Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew said:

But Autonomy's intent does not align with Trell's initial goal. Autonomy is literally the capability of a nation, place, etc. of ruling itself, so I don't think ruling a world would be Bavadin's thing.

Word of Brandon:

Quote

Quote

mistborn:

 

Bavadin has several male personas, and has often appeared as male for one purpose or another, so it's not that much of an issue. She has more female personas, but some of the male ones are quite popular.

This won't be relevant for a long while, but as a service to the community, let me say this: try not to get too hung up on gender, race, or even human appearance where Bavadin is concerned. There are some peoples who worship entire pantheons where every member is actually her.

You are severely underestimating what Bavadin is up to.  There is sufficient evidence that the "pantheons where entire member is actually her" are not limited to Taldain.

You are also ignoring the pretty blatant hints in the Wax&Wayne books that the follows of Trell literally seek autonomy (for themselves and from Harmony).

Also Trell's initial goal, as I pointed out before was to praise night and shun day. Very much aligns with life on the Darkside of Taldain.

[Sallin Zeras]

6 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

Word of Brandon:

You are severely underestimating what Bavadin is up to.  There is sufficient evidence that the "pantheons where entire member is actually her" are not limited to Taldain.

You are also ignoring the pretty blatant hints in the Wax&Wayne books that the follows of Trell literally seek autonomy (for themselves and from Harmony).

Also Trell's initial goal, as I pointed out before was to praise night and shun day. Very much aligns with life on the Darkside of Taldain.

Hadn't seen that stuff, thanks for the info. Now that I think about it, Autonomy being Trell makes more sense, even though keep in mind that he wants to destroy Scadrial, so I don't know if that is something related to Autonomy.

[Jedal]

Well, tinkering with the idea of a splintered Shard,(and I know this should not be here) could a splintered Shard form around another Intent? Odium may have been splintered at the end of Stormlight first half, and AoL is after book 5, so Odium may have reformed around Destruction... leading him to change his plans and desire the destruction of a planet instead of the splintering of its Shard. The way Harmony portrays the red haze seems to be more destructive than hateful, less human, and more pure evil.

[SpeakoftheDeval]

It's always possible that Trell is the combination of multiple shards like harmony. Maybe Bavadin picked up Odium?

[Jofwu]

I noticed something SUPER interesting in a SoS reread just now. Thought about making a new topic, but this one seems close enough...

At the end of chapter 7, Wax goes in to interrogate Rian, the man who tried to shoot Winsting. Here's a rough quote:

Quote

"She said you'd come talk to me," Rian said softly.

"She?" Waxillium said.

"God."

"Harmony?"

"No. She said I had to kill the governor. Attack him. I tried not to listen."

Waxillium narrowed his eyes. "You met her. What did she look like? What face was she wearing?"

"You can’t save him," Rian said. "She’s going to kill him. She promised me freedom, but here I am, bound. Oh, Ruin."

From here Rian goes on to point out the coin buried in his skin and so on. Now, I'm not particularly familiar with SoS. But I don't think we've ever had much reason to find this interaction very notable.

But now we have this news that Autonomy (Bavadin, rather) is female. And the "she" really catches my eye, folks. I think we generally assume Wax is correct that Rian is talking about Paalm. But isn't it clear that something else is at work behind all that we've seen?

Follow me. What if Trell is the "she". Rian didn't hear from a faceless immortal. He heard from God. Harmony? No, some other God. Trell. Autonomy. Bavadin.

Do we have a good idea of what Autonomy's Intent looks like in practice? Because this line sounds suspicious to me: "She promised me freedom..." A "she" promising freedom, and the guy think's she's a god? We know Autonomy has left Taldain and is up to something. I'm curious if this little conversation is one that's going to have SO much more deep meaning in retrospect, after Trell is revealed.

That's all.

As an aside, Trell can't be multiple Shards, I think. There's a recent WoB that Harmony is the only vessel holding multiple Shards. Brandon cited Dev & Dom as the only other case where two shards are mixed. (Besides Harmony) I think this is from the recent Chicago signing. The outdoor Q&A.

 

[BeskarKomrk]

9 hours ago, jofwu said:

I noticed something SUPER interesting in a SoS reread just now. Thought about making a new topic, but this one seems close enough...

At the end of chapter 7, Wax goes in to interrogate Rian, the man who tried to shoot Winsting. Here's a rough quote:

From here Rian goes on to point out the coin buried in his skin and so on. Now, I'm not particularly familiar with SoS. But I don't think we've ever had much reason to find this interaction very notable.

But now we have this news that Autonomy (Bavadin, rather) is female. And the "she" really catches my eye, folks. I think we generally assume Wax is correct that Rian is talking about Paalm. But isn't it clear that something else is at work behind all that we've seen?

Follow me. What if Trell is the "she". Rian didn't hear from a faceless immortal. He heard from God. Harmony? No, some other God. Trell. Autonomy. Bavadin.

Do we have a good idea of what Autonomy's Intent looks like in practice? Because this line sounds suspicious to me: "She promised me freedom..." A "she" promising freedom, and the guy think's she's a god? We know Autonomy has left Taldain and is up to something. I'm curious if this little conversation is one that's going to have SO much more deep meaning in retrospect, after Trell is revealed.

That's all.

As an aside, Trell can't be multiple Shards, I think. There's a recent WoB that Harmony is the only vessel holding multiple Shards. Brandon cited Dev & Dom as the only other case where two shards are mixed. (Besides Harmony) I think this is from the recent Chicago signing. The outdoor Q&A.

 

It's definitely possible that Rian was actually referring to Bavadin in this conversation, but my gut says he was talking about Paalm. Paalm talks about giving people freedom throughout the book (meaning freedom from Harmony's control), and was also trying to plant the idea that she was going to kill the governor (the "him" in the quote) to mislead Wax about who she was impersonating. It fits too well into Paalm's plan for me to believe Rian is talking about anyone else.

[Sallin Zeras]

9 hours ago, jofwu said:

I noticed something SUPER interesting in a SoS reread just now. Thought about making a new topic, but this one seems close enough...

At the end of chapter 7, Wax goes in to interrogate Rian, the man who tried to shoot Winsting. Here's a rough quote:

From here Rian goes on to point out the coin buried in his skin and so on. Now, I'm not particularly familiar with SoS. But I don't think we've ever had much reason to find this interaction very notable.

But now we have this news that Autonomy (Bavadin, rather) is female. And the "she" really catches my eye, folks. I think we generally assume Wax is correct that Rian is talking about Paalm. But isn't it clear that something else is at work behind all that we've seen?

Follow me. What if Trell is the "she". Rian didn't hear from a faceless immortal. He heard from God. Harmony? No, some other God. Trell. Autonomy. Bavadin.

Do we have a good idea of what Autonomy's Intent looks like in practice? Because this line sounds suspicious to me: "She promised me freedom..." A "she" promising freedom, and the guy think's she's a god? We know Autonomy has left Taldain and is up to something. I'm curious if this little conversation is one that's going to have SO much more deep meaning in retrospect, after Trell is revealed.

That's all.

As an aside, Trell can't be multiple Shards, I think. There's a recent WoB that Harmony is the only vessel holding multiple Shards. Brandon cited Dev & Dom as the only other case where two shards are mixed. (Besides Harmony) I think this is from the recent Chicago signing. The outdoor Q&A.

 

When I said that Trell was multiple Shards, I didn't mean as in Harmony, I meant that the identity of Trell has been taken by two or more Shards throught Scadrial's history. Trellagism, the initial Trell religion, was extremely different from Trellism, Trell's religion in Wax and Wayne. So I mean that the Shard that created Trellagism is not the same Shard that invented Trellism

[Jofwu]

Just now, BeskarKomrk said:

It's definitely possible that Rian was actually referring to Bavadin in this conversation, but my gut says he was talking about Paalm. Paalm talks about giving people freedom throughout the book (meaning freedom from Harmony's control), and was also trying to plant the idea that she was going to kill the governor (the "him" in the quote) to mislead Wax about who she was impersonating. It fits too well into Paalm's plan for me to believe Rian is talking about anyone else.

You mean the Paalm who was spiked with trellium?

I decided to make another thread anyways, if you want to discuss more there.

@Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew Ah, I see what you're saying. That could make sense, though my personal guess is that Trell co-opted an existing religion. I doubt his influence extends that far back.

[VirtuousTraveller]

On 12/11/2016 at 0:49 AM, Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew said:

it's not a Shard that we know of as of right now.

There's also a WoB that says the metal spike that Bleeder was using was from a Shard that we do know.  I think Autonomy is the culprit, however I don't know that Autonomy is working alone.  In some thoughts on another thread, I suggested that Autonomy is baiting Harmony into a conflict with Odium, as Odium definitely has the intent to destroy other shards.  In The Letter, Hoid references his grudge (singular) against Bavadin AND Rayse. so I'm working under the theory that they're working together somehow (even if that means Autonomy is using Odium).

[KidWayne]

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 4:02 PM, MadhavDeval said:

It's always possible that Trell is the combination of multiple shards like harmony. Maybe Bavadin picked up Odium?

A being with a heart full of hate who wants to do things her own way with no regard for anyone else's input or authority? Yeah, that sounds like a pretty decent template for a Devil / Satan character to me... +1

[Fezzik]

What if Trell is Ambition? Whoever is behind trellagism has some serious stones to go after the only planet in the cosmere with a double shard. We have "seen" ambition before on SoSitFoH, so that WOB applies, and AU doesn't explicitly confirm that ambition is totally dead, so it is possible that this is ambition's play to get back in business. Plus all of the references to shades in BOM (the newspaper story, the red eyed faceless immortals) make it seem more than a wild shot in the dark.

[Fezzik]

Shadows of/for? Silence in the Forests of Hell

[VirtuousTraveller]

27 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

Brandon did confirm in a WoB that  Ambition was Odium's primary worry to his plans.

But Ambition has been splintered, wounded in the Threnodite system, but splintered somewhere.  My guess is that we haven't seen this place yet, as there's still a lot of cosmere left undiscovered yet.

I think that it's unlikely that Trell is anyone but Autonomy based on the language Paalm uses in SoS, and the fact that the spike she used was from a shard we know (which at the time did not include Ambition).  Is it possible that Autonomy picked up a piece of the splintered Ambition?  I suppose, however wouldn't that be something Odium would have planned for?  He didn't want anyone picking up the shardic power on Sel, so he insured that it was stuck where no one could get it.

I think Autonomy is working with Odium, but I don't think the two shards are combined.  I think Bavadin, who we know to be manipulative and clandestine in her involvement in the cosmere, is manipulating Rayse into doing her dirty work.

Possible theory: Odium escapes the Roshar system at the end of Stormlight 5 and goes to Scadrial, where Autonomy has set the stage already by messing with Harmony and building an organization dedicated to subterfuge in the Set.  It's like the faceless immortals are foreshadowing a Scadrian desolation by declaring that life will be removed from the planet.

Only drawback to this idea is the question of how the Stormlight Archive can be a standalone series if the main bad guy escapes halfway through, doing things in a different cosmere world.  Maybe Odium regains the ability to do stuff on other worlds at the end of Stormlight 5, but has been forced to invest too much in the Roshar system (i.e. the Unmade and voidspren) that he ends up being splintered by the end of Stormlight 10, never able to fully escape (despite trying).

[Fezzik]

But we did know of ambition because by that point Shadows...Hell had come out. Brandon talked about us "knowing" of two more shards long before WoK named Aona and Skai.

[VirtuousTraveller]

16 minutes ago, john203 said:

But we did know of ambition because by that point Shadows...Hell had come out. Brandon talked about us "knowing" of two more shards long before WoK named Aona and Skai.

No, Ambition was new as of AU.  Prior to that, we knew about Dominion, Devotion, Preservation, Ruin, Odium, Honor, and Cultivation.  We learned about Autonomy officially in the release of White Sand, but Brandon had discussed this shard (and its holder Bavadin) prior to its release.

Of these "we knew" shards, Autonomy or Odium are the main culprits, but Odium is unlikely as he's trapped in Roshar (unless he escapes by SoS), and Paalm talks a lot about personal autonomy, AND Brandon revealed that Bavadin is crafty with a bunch of personas, so Autonomy's where my money is.

[SoulWeaver]

That's a fascinating idea that Trell is a corrupted shard, or combination of shards. I would also submit that he is another whole shard/shards of Adonalsium (Shard of Chaos as opposite to Harmony possibly? i.e. Honor and Odium are opposites) or maybe he is from outside Adonalsium. Either another whole deific entity, or a shard of Adonalsium's opposite/counterpart. 

[Sallin Zeras]

21 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

That's a fascinating idea that Trell is a corrupted shard, or combination of shards. I would also submit that he is another whole shard/shards of Adonalsium (Shard of Chaos as opposite to Harmony possibly? i.e. Honor and Odium are opposites) or maybe he is from outside Adonalsium. Either another whole deific entity, or a shard of Adonalsium's opposite/counterpart. 

That would be a let down. I think Trell is Brandon's chance to introduce the Cosmere in Mistborn, I mean, he has introduced it, but not as much as in SA

[Thanatos]

What if Rayse dies at the end of Stormlight book 5 and Bravadin now holds Autonomy and Odium?

That way the fights even.

Bravadin is Brandons favorite shard.

[Thanatos]

Fivelate

Brandon has said that Trell is a shard we already know.

 

[Thanatos]

It happens. 

You read to many Cosmere theories and fact and theory gets mixed.

That happens to me. lucky my lil bro keeps rereading and rereading and graphic audioing and rereading the books. 

 

[BeskarKomrk]

4 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Fivelate

Brandon has said that Trell is a shard we already know.

 

This isn't technically true. Brandon said the metal in Bleeder is from a Shard we know. However, there's nothing in the text or in any WoB that explicitly connects that metal to "Trell", the entity that Miles/the Set worship. I'll grant you that it's likely they're related, but we can't say that for sure yet.

[SoulWeaver]

Hold up hold up, why is Autonomy evil?