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Helaran timeline alternate theory


Djarskublar

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I am basically just going to put out the timeline that I just theorized, and then put in support for it afterward. I need to get the timeline out so I can see it and support it, and I'm not editing the whole post.

First, Shallan breaks for some unknown reason and becomes a Lightweaver. She progresses past the point she is at in WoR, so she was a complete or very near complete Radiant.

Her Skybreaker adherent mother finds out and attempts to kill her. The events of Shallan's flashbacks take place. That is Shallan's timeline, but it drastically impacts Helaran's.

First, after his mother is killed, he like others believes it was done by his father. This plants the seed of hatred if it wasn't already there, which it likely was. Give it a few years for his hatred of his Ghostblood father to grow. And then the pivotal moment: he either figures it out, it is let slip, or someone tells him (probably a Ghostblood contact) the actual circumstances of his mother's death. He at some point in the timeline is inducted into the Ghostbloods. He now hates the Skybreakers because their ideals in his mother effectively ruined their family.

Seeing how relatively easy it will be to manipulate a passionate, idealistic young man like Helaran, the Ghostbloods give him Plate and Blade to do their dirty work. He still hates his father because of all that he has done to the family since his mother's death, and potentially even before then. Helaran goes off to kill his targets provided by the Ghostbloods so that he can get closer to killing the Skybreakers.  Helaran is deployed to kill Amaram and is killed by Kaladin.

Now for support and reasoning. First, I would like to establish that his mother was almost certainly a Skybreaker. Of all the secret societies we have seen on Roshar, only the Skybreakers would kill a budding Radiant out of hand. The Envisagers and Sons of Honor would be overjoyed to find Shallan. Diagrammists would be content to monitor her at least to start off. Ghostbloods, as demonstrated in book, would just try to use her. The Listeners would kill her, but that is irrelevant for obvious reasons. AFAIK that covers the known secret societies. I don't think any mother would kill their daughter like she tried to if they started to demonstrate magic powers not seen for millennia simply because they got the powers. She is practically guaranteed to be a Skybreaker by sheer process of elimination.

If she hadn't been a Skybreaker and hadn't tried to kill Shallan, things in the family might have gone much better. His father may have been less influenced by Odium. The Radiants could have been refounded sooner. Basically, I have a hard time seeing what she did in a good light, particularly considering events in Edgedancer, and I have no reason to think Helaran would either. I can easily see Helaran displacing some of his various negative emotions onto not just his father, but the Skybreakers as well, once he found out.

The only piece of this that isn't really supported in text or by WoB is that he found out the secret. I imagine it is likely the Ghostbloods knew, though, so my guess about him being informed by one of his contacts in their organization is at least somewhat reasonable. This casts his search for the Skybreakers in a whole different light. He wasn't trying to join them. He was trying to destroy them. He probably joined the Ghostbloods in order to have access to the resources necessary to fuel his vendettas. Since his father was also a part of them, they wouldn't directly help him with that, but they would be just fine with having another pawn to help tip the balance of power away from the Skybreakers and towards themselves.

Helaran was almost certainly a Ghostblood, since Amaram seems to think he is, and he would have had the obligatory tatoo. That is fairly obvious to me. While I have seen the recent theory that he wasn't the Shardbearer Kaladin killed, it assumes that he joined the Skybreakers, which my theory explicitly holds the opposite to be true.

I think this theory fits the known facts well, and really only has one major assumption- that he found out the secret of his mother's death. I would love to see what you all think of it, though, since it just occurred to me today, and I only put a half hour of thought into it before writing this. I wouldn't be surprised if I am missing some holes, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

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I think he was a Skybreaker. Amaram assumes he's a Ghostblood, but doesn't know. If Helaran had a tattoo Amaram would know. Amaram doesn't know what he's doing. He knows somethings but is clueless about others. Your theory relies on Amaram's assumption. Both Gavilar and Amaram assume it is the Ghostbloods coming to kill them and both are wrong. I doubt Amaram is aware of the Skybreakers because Amaram doesn't know the Heralds are active or about an Order of Radiants still working in the world. 

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17 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

I think he was a Skybreaker. Amaram assumes he's a Ghostblood, but doesn't know. If Helaran had a tattoo Amaram would know. Amaram doesn't know what he's doing. He knows somethings but is clueless about others. Your theory relies on Amaram's assumption. Both Gavilar and Amaram assume it is the Ghostbloods coming to kill them and both are wrong. I doubt Amaram is aware of the Skybreakers because Amaram doesn't know the Heralds are active or about an Order of Radiants still working in the world. 

I don't have access to the text atm, but Amaram isn't some schmuck. He is important in the Sons. He either had the tatoo, so Amaram would think he was one of them, or he didn't and Amaram would think of, say, a Diagrammist.

I will address this more fully after work.

5 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

I believe that Shallan's mother belonged to the same organization as Teft's parents (Envisagers?). they believed that a mortal crisis would bring out the powers. Her death scene sounded more like this to me.

Except she had already become a Surgebinder, and one who has progressed far enough to have a Blade. If her mom was an Envisager, she would be celebrating, not attempting murder. I addressed this in the OP, but I guess it wasn't clear enough.

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4 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

I don't have access to the text atm, but Amaram isn't some schmuck. He is important in the Sons. He either had the tatoo, so Amaram would think he was one of them, or he didn't and Amaram would think of, say, a Diagrammist.

I will address this more fully after work.

Except she had already become a Surgebinder, and one who has progressed far enough to have a Blade. If her mom was an Envisager, she would be celebrating, not attempting murder. I addressed this in the OP, but I guess it wasn't clear enough.

Whether or not Amaram was a schmuck not withstanding (I think he isn't as smart as he thinks he is, he's an idiot in-fact, he's trying to start a desolation to bring back the Heralds! Who never went anywhere to start with!) that doesn't mean he knows everything about the Ghostbloods and the absence of evidence isn't evidence. 

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20 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Except she had already become a Surgebinder, and one who has progressed far enough to have a Blade. If her mom was an Envisager, she would be celebrating, not attempting murder. I addressed this in the OP, but I guess it wasn't clear enough.

I understood your position, but I think her mother had no idea she already attracted a spren, or if she did, that Shallan had come to be able to use some powers. We have no writing anywhere to indicate she used powers in front of her mother prior to her taking her mother's life. I think there was a great disconnect there that her mother would have celebrated, had she known. I great bit of irony in my opinion.

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2 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

I understood your position, but I think her mother had no idea she already attracted a spren, or if she did, that Shallan had come to be able to use some powers. We have no writing anywhere to indicate she used powers in front of her mother prior to her taking her mother's life. I think there was a great disconnect there that her mother would have celebrated, had she known. I great bit of irony in my opinion.

From WoR, chapter 88:

Quote

"Why did she try to kill me, Pattern?" Shallan whispered.

"Mmm..."

"It started when she found out what I could do."

[...]

Mother calling Shallan one of them.

So yeah, I think it's pretty clear that her mother knew what she was, and tried to kill her for it.

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On 12/9/2016 at 5:25 PM, Eki said:

From WoR, chapter 88:

So yeah, I think it's pretty clear that her mother knew what she was, and tried to kill her for it.

Eki has my back.

 

On 12/9/2016 at 2:55 PM, thejopen27 said:

Whether or not Amaram was a schmuck not withstanding (I think he isn't as smart as he thinks he is, he's an idiot in-fact, he's trying to start a desolation to bring back the Heralds! Who never went anywhere to start with!) that doesn't mean he knows everything about the Ghostbloods and the absence of evidence isn't evidence. 

I fully agree the goals of the Sons of Honor are idiotic, from a readers perspective. From theirs though, they are restoring their gods in exchange for the potential near destruction of humanity. They always defeated the desolations before, so it's not a bad trade... right?

To go to the point though, he had to have a reason to think he was a Ghostblood. As you say, absence of evidence and all that. He doesn't need to know everything about the Ghostbloods, he just needs to know they are a group that might want to kill him and have a distinctive tattoo. There wouldn't be a reason to believe it wasn't some assassin from one of the other Princedoms or vassals if there was no tattoo.

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12 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

I fully agree the goals of the Sons of Honor are idiotic, from a readers perspective. From theirs though, they are restoring their gods in exchange for the potential near destruction of humanity. They always defeated the desolations before, so it's not a bad trade... right?

To go to the point though, he had to have a reason to think he was a Ghostblood. As you say, absence of evidence and all that. He doesn't need to know everything about the Ghostbloods, he just needs to know they are a group that might want to kill him and have a distinctive tattoo. There wouldn't be a reason to believe it wasn't some assassin from one of the other Princedoms or vassals if there was no tattoo.

Mraise himself tells Shallan that her brother was a Skybreaker

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1 hour ago, thejopen27 said:

Mraise himself tells Shallan that her brother was a Skybreaker

Does he? I thought he only went as far as saying Heleran was searching out the Skybreakers, not that he had become one of them. I personally dont believe he was a Ghostblood. At least not on the evidence provided. Its all based on the assumption that Amaram found a tattoo that there was absolutely no mention of him finding. And if he had found it, why not mention. Something as simple as "The man was a Ghostblood. Made obvious by the tattoo hidden on the inside of his lower lip..." or something like that.

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6 hours ago, The Ninja Yodeler said:

Does he? I thought he only went as far as saying Heleran was searching out the Skybreakers, not that he had become one of them. I personally dont believe he was a Ghostblood. At least not on the evidence provided. Its all based on the assumption that Amaram found a tattoo that there was absolutely no mention of him finding. And if he had found it, why not mention. Something as simple as "The man was a Ghostblood. Made obvious by the tattoo hidden on the inside of his lower lip..." or something like that.

I also don't think he was a Ghostblood and while yes, Mraise only says "your brother sought out the Skybreakers" I think his actions combined with that imply he was a Skybreaker (in the organization, not a surgebinder Skybreaker) I also think Shallan's mother and her "friend" were Skybreakers based on their actions. I think Helaran was introduced to the Skybreakers through his mother. 

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On 12/11/2016 at 10:10 PM, thejopen27 said:

I also don't think he was a Ghostblood and while yes, Mraise only says "your brother sought out the Skybreakers" I think his actions combined with that imply he was a Skybreaker (in the organization, not a surgebinder Skybreaker) I also think Shallan's mother and her "friend" were Skybreakers based on their actions. I think Helaran was introduced to the Skybreakers through his mother. 

Ok yeah, so we're on the same page then. Thats exactly what I think happened.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/11/2016 at 10:10 PM, thejopen27 said:

I think his actions combined with that imply he was a Skybreaker (in the organization, not a surgebinder Skybreaker)

What actions are those?

On 12/8/2016 at 10:33 PM, Djarskublar said:

I think this theory fits the known facts well, and really only has one major assumption- that he found out the secret of his mother's death. I would love to see what you all think of it, though, since it just occurred to me today, and I only put a half hour of thought into it before writing this. I wouldn't be surprised if I am missing some holes, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

I find this theory pretty convincing. It seems pretty clear to me that (a) Helaran _was_ the man that Kaladin killed, (b) the man that Kaladin killed was not a Surgebinder, and (c) Taravangian clearly thought that Helaran was a Surgebinder. This theory covers all three of those facts pretty well.

Also, I think it explains why Mraize would want to highlight this for Shallan, which other theories don't. If the truth was Helaran was happily part of the order that caused her mother to try to murder her, then it seems weird that he would highlight Helaran's involvement in particular. (Why not ask her why her _mother_ sought out the Skybreakers, in that case?) It makes more sense to me if Mraize's pitch is going to be, "You can finish what your brother started and bring down this terrible organization that tore your family apart." That would draw her closer into the Ghostbloods going forward.

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14 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

When did Taravangian ever discuss Helaran?

After he talks with Szeth in his interlude chapter in WoR:

Quote

“Who is it?” he asked softly. “Who is this Surgebinder?”
“Jasnah’s ward?” Adrotagia said.
They had been startled when that one arrived on the Shattered Plains. Already they hypothesized that the girl had been trained. If not by Jasnah, then by the girl’s brother, before his death.
~Taravangian thinking of Shallan, 
Words of Radiance, Interlude I-14

 

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Are we actually so shure of Shallan's mother being one of the Skybreakers? True, they would be the only known group (save the Listeners) who are going around trying to off Radiants, but Nale is still keeping vehemently within the boundries of the law and I would expect any follower of his to do the same. If that would still be the reason why Shallan was to be killed there would need to be something within Veden law allowing for this. We know of no thing that could have happened to allow this. To be fair, we know no details of Shallan's life prior to this save that something caused her to break and she attracted Pattern, and said breaking point could potentially have come with a law break.

But if we allready are speaking in the unknowns, the only known group...

Edited by Eilemelie
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4 hours ago, Eilemelie said:

Are we actually so shure of Shallan's mother being one of the Skybreakers? True, they would be the only known group (save the Listeners) who are going around trying to off Radiants, but Nale is still keeping vehemently within the boundries of the law and I would expect any follower of his to do the same.

Nale's people don't seem so clear on the subject. One of them cut Gawx's throat in front of him, for example. I suspect it's hard for him to simultaneously sell the message that Surgebinders need to be stopped to prevent a Desolation from coming to the world _and_ that they need to be stopped within the law at all times.

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1 hour ago, Eilemelie said:

Are we actually so shure of Shallan's mother being one of the Skybreakers? True, they would be the only known group (save the Listeners) who are going around trying to off Radiants, but Nale is still keeping vehemently within the boundries of the law and I would expect any follower of his to do the same. If that would still be the reason why Shallan was to be killed there would need to be something within Veden law allowing for this. We know of no thing that could have happened to allow this. To be fair, we know no details of Shallan's life prior to this save that something caused her to break and she attracted Pattern, and said breaking point could potentially have come with a law break.

But if we allready are speaking in the unknowns, the only known group...

This is a fair point, I have no direct counter evidence, but there isn't really any evidence for the idea either, so whatever. I do agree that their mother could have been from another organization or just plain crazy. For all we know, she was a fanatical Vorin believer and thought that Surgebinders are evil, so when she realized what her daughter was doing she tried to kill her. This is a possibility, but I feel like the obvious answer of her being a Skybreaker minion is more likely. It is a simpler answer and also accounts for her having a friend along to help kill Shallan. And to account for the legality of killing her, she probably rationalized that what Nale doesn't know, won't get you killed. Besides that, it would be embarrassing to admit to your organization that the exact thing you are hunting (that is extremely rare, mind) showed up in your family.

On 12/11/2016 at 8:10 PM, thejopen27 said:

I also don't think he was a Ghostblood and while yes, Mraise only says "your brother sought out the Skybreakers" I think his actions combined with that imply he was a Skybreaker (in the organization, not a surgebinder Skybreaker) I also think Shallan's mother and her "friend" were Skybreakers based on their actions. I think Helaran was introduced to the Skybreakers through his mother. 

That is the prevailing theory. I simply don't agree with it. I always disliked it, but accepted it due to the lack of an alternative. It just feels... contrived, and it doesn't really explain things well. Now I have crafted an alternative that fits the facts and makes sense on its own. Even if the explanation in the OP, in retrospect, was pretty shoddy.

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Between Mraize and Taravangian's comments, I lean towards believing Helaran was positively associated with the Skybreakers. This doesn't necessarily mean he was a full-fledged member. He might have been a proto-Skybreaker. He might have merely been interested in them. I can see how he might have reason to hate them, but there's just no textual support for that. I think it's a big leap to assume his whole arc is bent around this idea of getting revenge on them.

I'm also a bit confused by some points on your timeline...

First, you suggest Lin was associated with the Ghostbloods fairly early on. I think it's much more likely that he got connected with them later--shortly before his economic turnaround.

Second, you suggest that Helaran got his Shardblade after discovering the truth about his mother's death. This doesn't fit to me, because he strongly hates and opposes his father for quite some time after receiving the blade. While he may have had many reasons to dislike his father, I just don't see how their relationship works with this order of events.

My personal guess is that he was with the Skybreakers all along. Given his mother's clear involvement with them, it makes sense that he'd be able to get connected with them. He got the Blade from them. The only hole I see with this is the fact he doesn't try to kill Shallan. There are probbaly a few ways to handle this, but I'd say the easiest solution is that he just didn't know. It's entirely possible that Shallan's secret died with his mother and her friend. And if the secret somehow did reach him down the road, it would explain why he stopped communicating with her.

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2 hours ago, jofwu said:

My personal guess is that he was with the Skybreakers all along. Given his mother's clear involvement with them, it makes sense that he'd be able to get connected with them. He got the Blade from them.

So if that's the case, Helaran isn't a Surgebinder (because he both wouldn't be able to wield a regular Shardblade and also wouldn't need one); and yet Taravangian is clearly under the impression that he is. Why would that be?

 

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1 minute ago, Harry the Heir said:

So if that's the case, Helaran isn't a Surgebinder (because he both wouldn't be able to wield a regular Shardblade and also wouldn't need one); and yet Taravangian is clearly under the impression that he is. Why would that be?

Two possible explanations I see:

1) The Skybreakers don't just recruit (or generally make use of) Surgebinders. There might be stronger evidence for this possibility somewhere... But the best support that comes to mind is Shallan's mother (and her friend). I don't see being a Surgebinder as something very easy to hide, and if Shallan's mother was one then there's little apparent indication of that. Also, I don't remember the details of the fight in Lin Davar's study... But I have a hard time believing that TWO Surgebinders could be killed by a very young and totally untrained Shallan (even if taken by surprise).

2) He simply wasn't that far along in his development as a Skybreaker. Brandon has said that Dalinar was on the Bondsmith path for quite some time, and he had no problem using a Shardblade all this time. I don't know if the Heralds have a stigma about the use of Shardblades, but if they do I'd expect Nale to be more okay with it in general. He's all about "ends justify the means".

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1 hour ago, jofwu said:

Two possible explanations I see:

1) The Skybreakers don't just recruit (or generally make use of) Surgebinders. There might be stronger evidence for this possibility somewhere... But the best support that comes to mind is Shallan's mother (and her friend). I don't see being a Surgebinder as something very easy to hide, and if Shallan's mother was one then there's little apparent indication of that. Also, I don't remember the details of the fight in Lin Davar's study... But I have a hard time believing that TWO Surgebinders could be killed by a very young and totally untrained Shallan (even if taken by surprise).

2) He simply wasn't that far along in his development as a Skybreaker. Brandon has said that Dalinar was on the Bondsmith path for quite some time, and he had no problem using a Shardblade all this time. I don't know if the Heralds have a stigma about the use of Shardblades, but if they do I'd expect Nale to be more okay with it in general. He's all about "ends justify the means".

The major point you are ignoring here is that the Skybreakers may not have any Shards. They have Surgebinders in their midst, and therefor have spren that abhor them. We don't know enough about the organization of the Skybreakers to say whether there are enough people in the group that aren't proto-Skybreakers compared to live spren to make it reasonable for other members to own Shards. I will assume for the moment that you have read Edgedancer, and understand where I am coming from. It could be a large secret society, or it could just be the few proto-Radiants controlled by Nale.

In the end your first point is directly contradicted by in book evidence. The Skybreakers do use Surgebinders, but we haven't the faintest how much. Trying to avoid spoilers here, but it's tough. I'll edit this if people think it is too spoilery.

Your second point doesn't really make sense to me. If I was trying to bond a spren, then owning a Shardblade is the last thing I would want to do. The Skybreakers would know what Shardblades really are, so they certainly know the effect it would have on your bondability. If Dalinar hadn't had a Blade, maybe he would have become a Radiant sooner. I would get rid of it however is the most convenient and least likely to get in trouble with the regional government. Nale is not 'ends justify means' he is 'ends justify means that are at least tenuously within the law.'

That point about Dalinar just made a new mini theory pop into my head. Owning a Blade opens you up to the influence of Odium more and that is why Blade owners experience the Thrill more.

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2 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

The major point you are ignoring here is that the Skybreakers may not have any Shards.

Yeah... but they also might... I don't think you can assume they don't, especially if non-Surgebinders are involved. Nale certainly has the means to acquire them. It's a toss up. None of these arguments prove anything- they're just hypothetical.

6 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

The Skybreakers do use Surgebinders

Yes, and I've read Edgedancer so I know what you're getting at. But this isn't proof that they don't make use of non-Surgebinders. Another toss up. Heck, I'd argue it suggests that they at least have non-Surgebinder servants and such. Which means non-Surgebinders are involved with the Skybreakers to some degree. Where's the line?

13 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

If I was trying to bond a spren, then owning a Shardblade is the last thing I would want to do. The Skybreakers would know what Shardblades really are, so they certainly know the effect it would have on your bondability.

I don't think we have evidence that having a Blade reduces your odds of getting a bond. That feels like an assumption to me, that very well may not be true. And as you say, if it's NOT true then they'd know it.

15 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

'ends justify means that are at least tenuously within the law.'

Sure, if you want to be precise. That's irrelevant to my point about his personality.

16 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Owning a Blade opens you up to the influence of Odium more and that is why Blade owners experience the Thrill more.

I don't think that's quite the case. There aren't THAT many Blades in Alethkar for the Thrill to be as common as it apparently is. Take Sadeas for example. He's never owned one, so far as we're aware, until he gets Oathbringer. Yet he's very familiar with the Thrill. I think the argument would be that violence/killing opens you up to the influence of Odium. And people with Blades (particularly in Alethkar) are obviously doing a lot of that with their blades, so there may be a correlation in that way.

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