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12_05_16 - Dreamt and Lost - Chapter 1 Version M - 2,500 words


Vreeah

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Hey everyone!

I made an alternate version of my story's first chapter for this round. I've always been intentionally vague about how I had my dream magic function, but recently I've been curious about how the story comes across if I displayed more of the system's characteristics in the beginning.
 
I've also shifted a different character's introduction here, and switched from Ellis's viewpoint to Sofia's viewpoint in the middle of the chapter. There's also less emphasis on the exact dreams they're facing. It's a significant difference from how I had the style and structure arranged before. I do like it, but I have no idea what impression it's giving.
 
I appreciate the help with this little puzzle. Thanks for reading
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Impressions: Interesting. This introduction definitely intrigue me and sets some of the basis for what I can only assume to be the magic system, yet I don’t really know anything concrete yet. For an opening chapter, this is a good hook to make me want to read the second, but I hope there’s more concrete things to come.

Dream magic seems difficult to work with, as dreams are often nonsensical and ever-changing, though this world might have different rules. Are the children special? I assume they are.

The shift works, mostly, but the dialogue seems a bit loose for sentries. I’m not a good person to comment on tight dialogue, though.

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Overall

Well your writing just keeps getting better! This is by far the best version I've seen yet. I like this format, with some comments below. I very much appreciate the information about the magic system right up front. Not a fan of the head hopping, especially with the backdate time for Sofia.

Keep up the awesome work!

As I go

- good, strong cold open. You've come a long way!

- liking the detail of the second full paragraph a lot

- page two is delightful

- top of page three, the ideas seem less developed and I get confused

- the discussion of fighting style kills the decent tension. I want more hook still, not a debate. It's first chapter after all

- bottom of page six - head hopping, as in, POV swaps mid-chapter, are not generally well-liked in new author fiction. Just heads up

- I'm confused as to when Sofia's POV starts. Is it right after we leave her brother?

- it looks like Sofia's POV jumps back in time a little. This kills tension, because we already know how the battle ends. I'm not invested in this scene

- tension back around page nine

- the ending isn't very cliff hanging because I don't know what the consequences are for dreams getting loose. It's an eye. It's loose. So what?

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I also used the word 'esprit' for familiars in my WIP! I guess it is a common word to come up with. Anyway, my first feedback on this site hope it's OK. 

I liked the writing, it was colorful and vivid. I enjoyed the relationship between brother and sister and I love friendly big guy characters like Cornias. Reading how the dreams work was also interesting.

Improvement wise...

5 hours ago, aeromancer said:

Dream magic seems difficult to work with, as dreams are often nonsensical and ever-changing

 

Dreams are probably difficult to make concrete, perhaps grounding the readers with more detail in one aspect, such as the main character or the setting might help some? I think you also have a fair bit of repetitive exposition, for example, the explanations about the dreams during the fight, and also drawing the readers attention to Sophie's grace and zeal on at least two or more occasions. I found the tension on and off. Cutting some exposition and better phrasing some character actions or descriptions such as yawning and childish dreams etc might help with that.

My skimmed page three, as I felt there wasn't much going on other than a blow by blow account, and on page 7 I was confused about the silver bar until Sophie's thought popped up. I wasn't quite sure what kind of bar? What it looked like? How he climbed through it?

Quote

Ellis stared... likely also questioning how it survived...

1
 

That sentence did seem almost like head hopping. She can't know what he is thinking, and you've made it seem like she's guessing, but it's a pretty exact assumption and is also mirrors the POV thought right before it. You can probably cut that. 

I hope this was useful. All in all, I liked this piece and would read more. If you don't mind me asking, what kind of audience/age group you are writing for? I wasn't quite sure if it was Children's or YA or Adult Fantasy

Edited by Lost Owl Needs Tea
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I'll hope to deliver, @aeromancer!

I've always loved the chaos and freedom you find in dreams, but in many stories they're locked in dream sequences, prophetic visions, or dream walking. The process of dreaming in this world does indeed mirror our world, but to make the magic system more stable, dreams are locked in their forms once they've been release for the first time.

The children aren't special. They just can't control the dreams they release, yet, so it's dangerous for them to be unsupervised.

I'll keep a watch on how my dialogue develops. I do need to make some changes, because I want their voice to convey as much of their character as they can while still flowing naturally.

---

I'm always delighted by your visits, @kaisa! Thanks for all your help and attention, you've made big impacts to the thoughts I have mingling through my head.

Hm, gotcha, I'll keep an eye on the page 3 concepts. If I'm not giving them enough attention, I'll give them a better spotlight elsewhere. They might not be pairing well enough with the cold open.

Sofia's POV isn't strictly necessary in this chapter, since I've written the chapter entirely in Ellis's POV before. I'll certainly swap back over to that if it performs better.

Page nine, ah, the eye. Hm, I'll add more details to the end of that scene for clarity, then. My author knowledge got in the way of creating a proper ending hook. The eye's not one of the children's dreams.

---

Hello @Lost Owl Needs Tea!

Oh yes, esprit is a great word, isn't it? I originally debated between using "soul" or "vitality", but they didn't quite convey the heart of the magic. I needed something closer to the mind, but "creativity" and "imagination" were both mouthfuls. There was no way they were going to survive daily usage by the inhabitants. "Reverie" was so close, but since it also described a type of dreaming I had to use it in another part of the system. Making up words was always fun, as well, but I wanted to try my hand and keeping things more relatable to our reality in this story. Finally I stumbled on "esprit" and I basically hugged the word.

Oh whoops I gushed. Right, back on topic.

I appreciate being the recipient of your first feedback!

Yeah, I thought it'd be tragically ironic if a story that centers around dreams and splendor was written with plainer descriptions. I need to walk the blurry line between ornate and over-embellished.

Hm, okay, that's two points against the flow of page 3. It deserves some deeper analysis on my part.

This is indeed very useful. Thank you so much!

It's meant to be an adult fantasy.

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P.1

Lovely opening line. I feel like you lose it a bit as the page goes on-- I haven't read the previous version-- but I feel like you're explaining a bit too much already. Feels a bit clumsy; reaching a little too hard for an anchor, given the subject matter.

P.2

Better here, and better towards the top of the page. Sort of I feel like the last line of dialogue on the page is a bit redundant; I'd cut, I think.

P.3

Good, much better, but I think the language is feeling a bit too precise, too grounded in place. 'it was likely tinged', 'three out of seven', etc, but I think here most of the issues are just some style adjustments.

Too much simile throughout the page though. Dreams aren't the place for simile.

P.4

The shift in style going into the description of the blond man is jarring, and I'm not loving the descriptive phrasing in general here. Canteloupes is a weird comparator for arms, a beard covering the lower half of the face is a fairly ordinary thing for a beard to do and doesn't actually tell us much about what the beard looks like (it rules out a couple styles but that's about it) and describing skintone as a degree of shades of colour really only makes sense, I think, when you're talking about what foundation one uses. And that 'however' sentence is trying a bit too hard to cram setting info into a place where it doesn't belong.

P.5

You're losing me here and kind of fast; it feels like you're giving me the reader information.

p.6

Like, this conversation has potential, but it's so clearly working towards a goal, an authorial goal, that it just feels way too constructed.

And breathe, not breath, though I'm sure someone's caught that already.

P.7

Yeah, see, I think your stronger paragraphs like the last one really just show the contrast of when it doesn't work. I think you could still be a lot looser with your description and it would be better, but it's really nice down here.

P.8

'fighting with extreme pole dancing' is such a scene-breaking sentiment though, it's almost heartbreaking how much that line doesn't work for me.

This conversation flows more naturally but I also don't think it's a great fit for the prose styling you've had when you've really got it going. In this, it's not that the dialogue isn't believable or even that it's bad; but it is, I think, too conversational, too grounded in up-to-the-moment vernacular. It's of our place, not this place where dreams must be defended against. I would say that goes for pretty much all of Sofia's internal monologue, too.

P.9

Again, the prose styling is at its best when it's not making comparisons, when you're avoiding these likelies (and the way you use your 'likely' just feels like a cheap workaround on your POV; it's a little hat on the fact that what the text really wants to be doing is saying what's inside this other character's head. I'd advise snip-snip)

I feel like 'originated' is not a word that has any place in any dream.

P.10

This paragraph is, I think, a little too clinical.

I think the big thing here for me, overall, is that you're grounding yourself too much. Tell me it's a dream, tell me you're working with dreams, and I will run with it, I will run with what happens. Tell me what the viewpoint character does and that this is dreams, and I will take whatever you give. Everything else is just chaining you down. This has potential, but away from the individual moments, away from attempts to contextualize, away from the conversations in a vein that one might overhear walking through a mall. 

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Hm, interesting.  I like this one better than your old one.  I think you’ve still kept the whimsical nature of the dream fighting, which is good.  I liked that we get to see more of Sophia and Ellis’s character.  I still got a little fatigued by the fighting with no plot yet, but that might be because I’ve read your old first chapter, so it wasn’t fresh for me.

Ellis was one of the sentries stationed at the cavern gates...
This whole paragraph was awesome.

At the middle of page 3, I'm ready for more plot, or context, or character... fight fatigue has hit me.

Most of the children in the nursery were fully awake by now...
Also a great paragraph.

"Ha, you'll be surprised. You're not entirely wrong, though..."
At this point the discussion about fighting styles is getting old.  I don't really have any context to tell me why this might matter.  The discussion ends a few sentences later, so I think you were close to the sweet spot.

She glanced toward the gates at her brother. Ellis had made a chair for himself...
Love it. This is the kind of character-revealing action we never saw from Ellis before.  Also, in general I like that the siblings anticipate each other so well.

On December 5, 2016 at 10:14 PM, kaisa said:

- the ending isn't very cliff hanging because I don't know what the consequences are for dreams getting loose. It's an eye. It's loose. So what?

I second this.

10 hours ago, neongrey said:

This conversation flows more naturally but I also don't think it's a great fit for the prose styling you've had when you've really got it going. In this, it's not that the dialogue isn't believable or even that it's bad; but it is, I think, too conversational, too grounded in up-to-the-moment vernacular. It's of our place, not this place where dreams must be defended against. I would say that goes for pretty much all of Sofia's internal monologue, too.

Hmm I think this is a good description of something that's always bothered me about Sophia's dialogue.  She's just a little too casually removed from the situations she's in.  It ends up not feeling real.  However, I will say that I really like the "This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules, this guy is a pole dance fighter???  Nooo, my brother is going to be friends with this weirdo..." line. I think with the right context in her character, that line can work well.

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  • 1 month later...

Hey there, my attempts to catch up continue. Interested to see how you’ve changed what I read before.

  • There are some good lines on the opening page, and I like that it’s an active opening. I think the language could be tidied up; some of the phrasing seems a bit muddy and unclear, but that’s what edits are for! Also, I get a decent sense, at a high/introductory/basic level, of how the main dream processes manifest, which is good. Enough to be curious to learn more.

  • Shower of noodles, peanut squirrels – lol.

  • As you may recall, I never was in favour of being overly prescriptive about the magic system, so the more detailed explanation at the top of Page 2 starts to lose me. If I’m going to get into greater detail, I don’t want it so close to the start.

  • “red-tipped, black thorn lance and a cactus needle rapier” – cool image of Sof.

  • I don’t like the abbreviation of seven-year. Don’t see the point, you’re only saving two letters, and it looks weird.

  • On the subject of confusing language, I think the encounter with the wolves could be smoother. I know it’s all editing, but I’ll flag where I think language is an issue.

  • “like she's always in the middle of gracefully falling over” – nice description, and novel too.

  • “It'll help me out if I ever need to fight it” – Ooh, suspicious, or is that my paranoia showing? Ah, no, Ell sees it too.

  • “Sofia forgot to breathe

  • “A long, silver bar spun span and snaked through the air” – I believe.

  • I lose track of the dynamics of Cor’s fighting, I can’t picture what he’s going. You talk about him striking at one point (I think), but with that?

  • The reference to pole dancing threw me completely. It really makes me question what sort of wider world these charcaters live in, that she would know about that. I imagine that there is a gritty Game of Thrones city somewhere, that’s all pain and death, but everyone in the nursery lives in a fairy-tale. That pole dancing reference feels way out of place to me.

  • “there was a disc along its surface that made a slight bump” – I don’t find this description all that clear, although it becomes apparent that it’s an eye, of course.

I do enjoy the light and colourful tone of the story, which I’m glad to see is still there. It’s pretty fundamental. The thing that sticks out in my mind as I read this chapter is the story’s scope. All this effort and resource going into the maintenance of a nursery. It makes me wonder what is happening in the wider world. I don’t mind a story with a narrow scope, and it’s certainly entertaining, but I can’t help thinking whether things like politics, geography, economy, religion are going to be touched upon. If not, that’s fine, not all stories need to be, or should be, epics – it’s just something I found myself wondering about – essentially, how does society work? You mention temple culture, which starts to hint at these things, and sparks my interest.

I liked the ending where the eyeball was discovered and then flew away, a nice note of tension / threat at the end that promises conflict to come.

<R>

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On 08/12/2016 at 7:03 AM, neongrey said:

'fighting with extreme pole dancing' is such a scene-breaking sentiment though, it's almost heartbreaking how much that line doesn't work for me.

Yeah, it's painfully out of place, completely agree.

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