Jump to content

[Theory] The Highstorm is a mobile Perpendicularity


Yata

Recommended Posts

Hi guys, I am writing this post to expose a theory I worked on for a while, recently I got some new possible contros and I developed a derivated theory of the main one (but that I like very very less).

The core concept of the theory for both the main and the derivate ones is that an Highstorm is actually a perpendicularity...a mobile one (to be honest I think it better to say that an Highstorm has a Perpencidularity at its inside)

Pros:

- An Highstorm spreads Stormlight...Investiture that comes directly from the Spiritual Realm (many WoB about Stormlight as lightbulb to the spiritual realm), a perpendicularity is a place where the Realms are spiked and the Spiritual is "in contact" with the phisical.

- Shadesmar seems really poor of Stormlight, another clue about the direct travel Spiritual->Physical (with maybe some minor leak in the Cognitive, that may be the origin of the proto-Spren)

- The Perpendicularities we saw are all in a liquid state and may be part of a greater waterpool (often called water of live in certain Cosmere Culture) and the Hightstorm is actually a great amount of water (as every storm's cloud) compressed together. The Highstorms help to grown plants and have some benefit to the living healt (I think it's the reason the "Herald's wisdom" suggest to go out in the Highstorm to wash) fitting well with the "water of life" concept

- The phase where the Spheres get the Stormlight is actually the same phase when Listeners can obtain a new form and the phase where people willing or unwilling are slightly pulled out of the Physical (the "calm eye" of the Highstorm).

- Roshar is a place where the boundary between the Realms are less strong, what is better than a Perpendicularity that regularly pass over the whole planet ?

Contro:

- We never actually saw a mobile perpendicularity

The previous part is common by both the Main theory and the Derivate one. Now I will talk about the difference between the two:

 

Main theory: Adonalsium's design

We know that Adonalsium explicity created Roshar as we see it, We know that the Listener predate the Shards there and that the Listener were created by Adonalium to fit the Roshar's ecology. As other Rosharans' beings the Listener are quite dependant from the symbiosis with a Spren. My idea is that Adonalsium left on Roshar as part of his design a great "Investiture Vault"(I see it as a willing analogue to the Ruin's stolen power) to put in place the Invested Highstorm as a tool to made the Spren's birth naturally possible. The bounday between Realms are weaker and the Mind of the physical being may more easy influence-gave birth to the Cognitive beings (thanks also to the higher level of Investiture). A specific Adonalsium's Splinter was put in charge or developed on his own the purpose to carry and manage the Highstorm (of course I am talking of the Rider of the Storm).

Pro to the main theory:

- Roshar's ecology seems to be strictly dependent from Stormlight

- Roshar's flora/fauna is high developed to the Highstorm (this is actually a doutbful pro, because the Highstorm may be a regular uninvested powerful Storm in the Ancient time)

- This would fits to the theory who saw the Purelake as a Shard's Perpendicularity along with Horneater's peaks and leave a place for the Highstorm as other source perpendicularity

Contro to the main theory:

- A recent WoB said that is possible to create a Spren from Stormlight while isn't possible to create it from Preservation's power because it comes from a different WoB. This suggest that Stormlight is from one of the shard that are actually parents of the Radiant Spren (without put an exception like "Adonalium's Investiture as untainted Investiture may be used corrupted with an Intent and be used as Shard's Investiture)

- The presence of an huge amount of Adonalsium's Investiture is something never saw in other places of the Cosmere and in my opinion it would be cause a Manifestation of Investiture to arose on Roshar (like if a Shard was Invested).... I actually think that the Fabrial aren't from H&C but this is quite an external topic in this theory.

- The Drominad System's essay seems to point as First of the Sun as an unique case in the Cosmere, where you can find a perpendicularity without a Shard on the planet. This may be semanthic, but actually on Roshar the Adonalsium's perpendicularity may be masked by the presence of H&C or it's not so relevant because you may actually use the Shards' perpendicularities

 

Derived theory: Cultivation's will

Cultivation is the Stormlight's source (I have another topic in working called "Stormlight isn't of Honor").

Pros to the derivate theory:

- More in line with the Shard's investiment on a Planet

- Stormlight has healing and growing proprieties on large scale, this seems to fit Cultivation's mandate/Intent

- If the Purelake's theory is false, we have a good candidate to the second Shard's perpendicularity on Roshar (thanks to the guys who informed me that the Purelake's perpendicularity is a theory not a confirmed fact)

- It doesn't need to put exception to the Cosmere's mechanics

Contros to the derivate theory:

- How the hell Did Roshar's survive before the Shards' arrive ?

 

I would really know your opinions about... Soon or later I will wrote all my Roshar's model
PS: If you find some horrible grammar horror in the theory please let me know it...I will fix it as soon as possible

Edited by Yata
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I have some similar thoughts. Number one is that the main theory is likely correct, up to the point where there may not actually be a perpendicularity created, but the boundary between Realms is certainly weakened, so Elsecalling and Soulcasting are probably easier then. The other main point is that I think the Highstorms are the equivalent of the mists, and R+P both have a mist. It matters because I agree that the Highstorm was Mr A's design, but I think H+C Invested and corrupted the storm. Odium came later and caused a new occasional storm. The storm may have been much less Invested when Mr A was still around, but it is able to travel partially because of the Investiture it holds, so it had to have had at least some in the past.

Your point about spren growing from the Highstorm was novel to me, and very interesting. Splinters growing from ambient uncontrolled Investiture? Cool! Whether that works... no idea. It probably does, but I don't think we can confirm it.

PS your grammar is far from perfect, but you make pretty consistent mistakes so I have gotten used to reading it and hardly notice any more. It has improved over time, too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't go too far about the Spren or Stormlight because I thought it was quite OT in the context of the Theory (but as I said I have another couple of topics to made about those arguments).

Yeah I know that my grammar is far from good. But I can't actually see my own errors to try to avoid them the next time....My Hope is always to make posts that are understandable also if I seem a "9 years old child".

Returning to the main point of the Highstorm's source, I don't think Honor has some of his own in it (it's the reason I didn't put him in the Derivated theory). I explain myself better. Honor died, his power was splintered and now reside in the Cognitive Realm (in the form of an huge number of Spren or proto-Spren).

This mean that IF Honor's power was part of the Stormlight...now there is no more of him in there (stormlight again is tapped directly from the Spiritual). I suppose this would be something that will change a bit the Stormlight's nature and nothing in the books (Dalinar's vision or Spren's worlds) seems to point in some " relative recent" change in the Stormlight.

Of course there is another possibility, Honor (and Cultivation) could  cut off a part of himself to place it in the Stormlight-cycle (almost in the same way I propose, Adonalsium did it)...But I find it unlikely. I see no point in weaken yourself without a real benefit, when you are currently in war with a big bad guy who had already managed to overcome other two Shards together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, AnanasSpren said:

I think we have it via WoB that when the Stormfather became Tanavast's CS, he also dispersed a fair bit of the power in the form of more Spren (which would stop what happened on Sel)

Stormfather didn't became Tanavast's CS....The being that now we call "Stormfather" is the merging of the Rider of the Storm and the actual Tanavast's CS. It's both a Splinter (thanks to Rider of the Storm) and a Sliver (for the Tanavast's Shadow)....I always see it as a Shard's parody

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

The myth Hoid tells in Words of Radiance is referencing how worldhopping works

The myth is the story about Fleet, the man who ran faster than a highstorm.  In the end, he died and his spirit left his body in order to continue down to the western shores of Shinovar in an attempt to best the Stormfather.  That Brandon mentions the idea of worldhopping in relation to the highstorm makes me think you're onto something with this idea @Yata.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Yata said:

Stormfather didn't became Tanavast's CS....The being that now we call "Stormfather" is the merging of the Rider of the Storm and the actual Tanavast's CS. It's both a Splinter (thanks to Rider of the Storm) and a Sliver (for the Tanavast's Shadow)....I always see it as a Shard's parody

Didn't mean in the literal sense, late night posting and all that haha

As for the theory, I'm definitely with you that boundaries to the realms would no doubt be a little softer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ahh, but my WoB that you can make spren didn't say you could make certain types of spren with Regrowth, so presumably you can make spren that are Honorspren, Cultivationspren, or something that is mixed. That suggests to me that Honor is involved in the Storm, which makes sense since his Cognitive Shadow merged with the Rider of the Storm.

I really do like this theory, though. Hopefully the two of us with our respective recent perpendicularity threads can get people to really think about them and get us some more ideas. It is one of the less understood, but highly important fields of inquiry. I feel like we need to get more information on perpendicularities in particular if we want to have a better understanding of Realmatics. It is also something I feel like if we use careful wording, we can actually get answers, so there is that.

I just really want to know more about how to mix the magics, and transportation is key to that. I also hope this post doesn't come off rudely, so sorry if it bothers anyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two other semi-related WoB:

Crem, which is deposited by highstorms, is something akin to Shard-waste:

Spoiler

Interview: Oct 9th, 2015

Question

Is crem spren poop? Or at least… not literally, but something like it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it’s more like Shard poop. (Somewhat unsure sounding?

Highstorms manifest in CR but RAFO regarding how:

Spoiler

Interview: Oct 6th, 2015

Nethseaar

Do Highstorms manifest in Shadesmar? If so, how? A giant wall of glass beads?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they do manifest in Shadesmar. You will need to read to find out how.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/4/2016 at 6:48 AM, Yata said:

Honor died, his power was splintered and now reside in the Cognitive Realm (in the form of an huge number of Spren or proto-Spren).

This is suspicious to me. We have a WoB (in fact a few of them) about how VERY SPECIAL Sel is, because (as we learned later) on Sel, the power of the Splintered Shards resides in Cognitive Realm.  It wouldn't be THAT SPECIAL if Roshar had the same thing going.  

Separately from this, while we still do not know which parts of Roshar as we see it now Honor was responsible for vs which parts Cultivation was responsible for, but given certain subtle hints (prevalence of honor-based cults out West, where highstorms are the strongest; Stormfather being a cognitive shadow of Honor) suggest that Stormlight is at least in part of Honor.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 04/12/2016 at 10:10 AM, Yata said:

Contro:

- We never actually saw a mobile perpendicularity

 

Actually, while we have never seen one, Khriss references what seem to be mobile, or at least sometimes non-existant Perpendicularities in Arcanum Unbound, in her essay on the Threnody system.

Spoiler

She says that travelling to Threnody is difficult due to it's Perpendicularities being "Difficult to predict" and having a "Somewhat morbid (or unsettling, I forget which exactly) origin" .

The difficulty implies to me that the Perpendicularities are mobile, or perhaps sentient and therefore can only be accessed when their physical forms are awake etc.

Edited by Rawrbert
Tweaked wording
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, emailanimal said:

This is suspicious to me. We have a WoB (in fact a few of them) about how VERY SPECIAL Sel is, because (as we learned later) on Sel, the power of the Splintered Shards resides in Cognitive Realm.  It wouldn't be THAT SPECIAL if Roshar had the same thing going.  

We have the WoB who said that Roshar would be in the same problem as Sel if there wasn't another Shard and a tons of Spren who works as release valve for Honor's Power (while the Seon&Skaze on Sel are really not enough to performe this works).

2 hours ago, emailanimal said:

Separately from this, while we still do not know which parts of Roshar as we see it now Honor was responsible for vs which parts Cultivation was responsible for, but given certain subtle hints (prevalence of honor-based cults out West, where highstorms are the strongest; Stormfather being a cognitive shadow of Honor) suggest that Stormlight is at least in part of Honor.

As I said some post before, the current Stormfather is a mix of the spren knowed as Rider of the Storm and the Tanavast's Cognitive shadow. I think that H&C (and maybe Odium) corrupted some great Spren that were already on Roshar for some specific purpose ( Rider of the Storm, the Nightwatcher and another spren that I can't actually sure for sure). This attuned those Adonalsium's Spren to them. Making those spren compatible to the magic system knowed as Surgebinder.

When Tanavast dies, his Cognitive Shadow tried a way to fight again...or maybe just to pass the visions. And he get to the Stormfather, the only one who may actually find a good vessels for the visions.

@Rawrbert yes I read that essay but I find some difference between something that "spawn and vanish in different locations" and an actual "mobile things". But thanks to post it

 

PS: I think that may be clear, but also if I proposed both of theories. I am actually more about the main one with Adonalsium as Stormlight's source

Edited by Yata
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Yata said:

@Rawrbert yes I read that essay but I find some difference between something that "spawn and vanish in different locations" and an actual "mobile things". But thanks to post it

To be fair, I think that being in different locations is kind of the definition of "mobile" XD But yeah, we need more confirmation on that. I think it's definitely an indication that mobile Perpendicularities are possible though!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Yata said:

We have the WoB who said that Roshar would be in the same problem as Sel if there wasn't another Shard and a tons of Spren who works as release valve for Honor's Power (while the Seon&Skaze on Sel are really not enough to performe this works).

Would be. Not "is". That's a huge difference in my book.

 

5 hours ago, Yata said:

corrupted some great Spren

I would prefer to think of this as "coopting some great Spren".  Wonder what Nightwatcher was like before.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@emailanimal When I used the word "corrupted" I didn't want to give some morality in the act. Investiture's mandate always influence the host, so if I give a shard's Investiture to a being/entity, that entity would become more or less attuned to the Shard :) (I believe that infused/gifted/attuned/corrupted/twisted/empowered are all good terms for this)

Edited by Yata
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we can conclusively say there is Honor in Stormlight. Someone asked at a signing a while ago, I think at Paris, maybe somewhere else, about where the Light that powers Highstorms comes from. He said it comes from the SR, and is then filtered through the Stormfather into the storm. That clinches for me that some of Honor's intent must reside in Stormlight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is kinda random but because were talking about perpendicularities i'll post it here. So the Radiants could draw upon magnitudes of investiture through surgebinding, if you had enough Radiants surgebinding would they create a perpendicularity? and is the voidbringers were cast into damnation which I think is braize or ashyn, the Radiants would make a massive perpendicularity making it so the voidbringers could jump worlds and cause a desolation, and that is why the radiants broke their oaths.

-sorry if this is not organized i am really tired.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

I think we can conclusively say there is Honor in Stormlight. Someone asked at a signing a while ago, I think at Paris, maybe somewhere else, about where the Light that powers Highstorms comes from. He said it comes from the SR, and is then filtered through the Stormfather into the storm. That clinches for me that some of Honor's intent must reside in Stormlight.

Well not for sure.

Whatever the Stormfather is made. This tell us about nothing on the Stormlight's composition. Also Preservation was capable of spreading Ruin's Investiture in the physical Realm. In the same way, if there is a of Vault of Investiture avaliable on Roshar...Also beings made by other "powers" may be able to manipulate it (much more if the Investiture is "black" as probably was Adonalsium's one).

Remember also that for sure the Stormfather gained deep Connection to Honor only after his Death. We don't know how he was before (He may be an Honor's Spren from the beginning, an Adonalsium Spren later converted to Honor, an Adonalsium Spren who gained Honor's attributes only with the Tanavast's Shadow)

 

@Nightblade the problem here is that a perpendicularity will not help the Voidbringer to return. First of all there are already a couple of perpendicularities on Roshar (at least), if also Cultivation may shout down her own (we are unsure if she could), there are still the Honor's one.

On another note, all the Radiant of the universe can't tap more than the sum of the Highstorm's Stormlight. Therefore if those amount is enough to make a Perpendicularity, there are yet a perpendicularity in the Storm and the Voidbringer can use it.

Edited by Yata
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4.12.2016 at 5:06 PM, Yata said:

Stormfather didn't became Tanavast's CS....The being that now we call "Stormfather" is the merging of the Rider of the Storm and the actual Tanavast's CS. It's both a Splinter (thanks to Rider of the Storm) and a Sliver (for the Tanavast's Shadow)....I always see it as a Shard's parody

I didn't know the part with the Rider of the Storm. What is the Rider of the Storm exactly?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, blueshard said:

I didn't know the part with the Rider of the Storm. What is the Rider of the Storm exactly?

It's the Listener's name for the Stormfather (it comes from one of Eshonai's PoV)...it seems his ancient name. Many (me included) prefer to use that name to refer to the Stormfather before He merged with Tanavast's Shadow, to avoid confusion to write everytime "stormfather before the merging with Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Nightblade said:

So the Radiants could draw upon magnitudes of investiture through surgebinding, if you had enough Radiants surgebinding would they create a perpendicularity?

If I recall Brandon's words from last night correctly, this is actually how Elsecalling works. The difference between what they do and what a permanent perpendicularity (such as the Well of Ascension) is just scale. 

On topic, Brandon RAFO'd the question about whether the highstorms are/contain Honor's perpendicularity. He did say that it (Honor's perpendicularity) is moving though.

You'll want to keep an eye out on the Chicago Arcanum Unbounded thread for when the audio and/or transcription shows up if you want confirmation and exact words for those though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Yata said:

 

@Nightblade the problem here is that a perpendicularity will not help the Voidbringer to return. First of all there are already a couple of perpendicularities on Roshar (at least), if also Cultivation may shout down her own (we are unsure if she could), there are still the Honor's one.

On another note, all the Radiant of the universe can't tap more than the sum of the Highstorm's Stormlight. Therefore if those amount is enough to make a Perpendicularity, there are yet a perpendicularity in the Storm and the Voidbringer can use it.

Have you read the Lift short story? if or when you do tell me what you think about Nins reasons for killing the radiants.

It might add on the voidbringers ties to perpendicularities.

 

Edited by Nightblade
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read it, and I honestly I can't add more than what I already said in that post.

There I said that probably it's some kind of part of the Oathpath to allow the Voidbringer to start a Desolation and the Desolation was a real problem already before the KR's birth.

The only thing I could say...it's that maybe a tons of KR "are equals" to the Oathpath to at least one fully operational Herald...and we know that if the Heralds didn't return to the Damnation, a new Desolations would start  (for "fully operational Heralds" I refer to Heralds with their Honorblade and that obey to whatever their duty was)...but it's just a speculations of mine

Edited by Yata
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...