Murderous Ascension

[DrakeMarshall]

We keep seeing WoBs about what happens when you become too invested.

You ultimately ascend to become the vessel of the shard whose investiture you hold so much of.

That much is established... But it makes me wonder... What happens if you get enough investiture to ascend... But the current vessel of the shard is still alive?

Now, we have technically seen such an occurrence, when Vin ascended and took Preservation from Kelsier. On the other hand... In my estimation, Kelsier wasn't really holding the shard to full capacity. I do not think his example really counts at all.

But it still raises questions. What happens? Would the current shardholder be killed? Just like that? That sounds like a surprisingly easy way to kill a shardholder.

Or would perhaps the would-be ascendant be killed? For anyone here who has read the traveller's gate triology... I can't help but think of what happened to someone when they tried to become an incarnation of a territory when that territory already had a living incarnation in the real world. It wasn't pretty.

No matter which way you cut it, this kind of ascension has some serious implications. And while Sanderson has said more than once that holding lots of investiture is a way to ascend, his silence on what happens to the existing shardholder sticks out to me as significant... I wonder if we will see such an ascension down the road.

[Spoolofwhool]

I don't think anything would happen to either person. After all, we have a case of it happening many times. Over the history of Scadrial, many Heroes of Ages have ascended using the power of the Well of Ascension, while Leras still held Preservation. Leras didn't die, they didn't die, or at least Rashek didn't, so I honestly think nothing significant happens, at least with the Well of Ascension. The thing, they aren't ascending the shard, they're just ascending using some of the power of the shard. There is some connection to the shard, but not to the main power of the shard, just a specifically isolated portion of it.

The case of Vin ascending Preservation while Kelsier was holding doesn't really tell us anything, because Kelsier gave it to her.

Overall though, it's possible that there are difference cases based on how the investiture used to ascend was obtained, and the holder's connection. I can see a possibility of someone ascending a part of a shard's power while somehow having a stronger connection to the shard, in which case they might be able to merge with the greater power and cause it to reject the holder. However, I see this as unlikely, as a holder's connection strengthens over time, so it would have to be a new holder.

MS:SH

Spoiler

This is probably the reason why the Ire, despite having a device which would artificially create a strong connection to Preservation, had to wait for Leras to die. While he lived, his connection would've been too strong regardless of their device. 

 

Edited December 4, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[ZenBossanova]

I suppose part of the question is, where do you get that much investiture without taking it from an existing shard? 

I don't think ascension is inherently murderous, but the current supply of investiture is limited, and the main source is the shards themselves. 

[Spoolofwhool]

13 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

I suppose part of the question is, where do you get that much investiture without taking it from an existing shard? 

I don't think ascension is inherently murderous, but the current supply of investiture is limited, and the main source is the shards themselves. 

True, but as we've seen with Preservation and the Well of Ascension, a shard can separate enough investiture from themselves to give to someone in order to allow them to ascend while still holding their power.

[skaa]

I think the only answer for which there is any evidence is that the huge amount of Investiture won't stick, and that the would-be ascendant will just be a Sliver in the end, just like Rashek.

I mean, it's not conclusive evidence, as we don't know if the Well of Ascension (despite its name) has enough of Preservation's Investiture at full capacity for a person to become Preservation while the Shard had no Vessel, but it's still evidence.

Edit: Didn't see @Spoolofwhool's post, which already mentioned the Well. Whoops.

Edited December 4, 2016 by skaa

[Zathoth]

If Vin had ascended when Leras was still alive she would probably just been a greatly invested cognitive shadow.

She wont pass on unless she wants to so she would probably just be stuck in the cognitive realm.

[Djarskublar]

I basically asked this question recently by asking what would happen if Preservation kept splitting off as much Lerasium as they could and passing it to some particular person. Eventually they become a Lerasium savant, and WoB you would Ascend from that. I guessed at the time that the two potential Vessels would basically end up in a cagefight of the mind, if they both wanted the Shard. The current Vessel would probably win, and then the Lerasium candidate would end up as a shadow, since their physical form would dissolve.

I don't recall what everyone else said in the thread, though. I'll link it later if I remember.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

I basically asked this question recently by asking what would happen if Preservation kept splitting off as much Lerasium as they could and passing it to some particular person. Eventually they become a Lerasium savant, and WoB you would Ascend from that. I guessed at the time that the two potential Vessels would basically end up in a cagefight of the mind, if they both wanted the Shard. The current Vessel would probably win, and then the Lerasium candidate would end up as a shadow, since their physical form would dissolve.

Why wouldn't they regain their body afterwards? All other ascended beings regain their physical body when they cease to be ascended. The only person who we've seen not have a physical body afterwards is the person who ascended without a physical body.

[Djarskublar]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Why wouldn't they regain their body afterwards? All other ascended beings regain their physical body when they cease to be ascended. The only person who we've seen not have a physical body afterwards is the person who ascended without a physical body.

Fair enough, but a Lerasium savant would be permanently in a state of partial Ascention, so who knows. The current Vessel would probably just have to kill them in the end...

[Spoolofwhool]

6 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Fair enough, but a Lerasium savant would be permanently in a state of partial Ascention, so who knows. The current Vessel would probably just have to kill them in the end...

Possibly. The current vessel could probably just undo the changes in order to stop that though.