Fourth of the Sky

Question about Denth

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Denth shook, bleeding, and lost control. His hair suddenly bled to deep black, then blond, then an angry red. 3

Finally, the hair turned white with terror and stayed there. He stopped moving, life fading away, new Breaths and old both vanishing.

SO my question is, Why does Denth's hair change colour? Is it the Royal locks?

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JEREMY_CARROLL

Are/were all the Five Scholars Returned?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.
...

 

JEREMY_CARROLL

Can you give any history on Denth? I don't know what he did as one of the Five Scholars. ...

In short, Denth is a Returned.

Also, since this is your first post, welcome to the forums :) 

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26 minutes ago, KnightRadiant said:

In short, Denth is a Returned.

Also, since this is your first post, welcome to the forums :) 

  He has the Royal Locks independent of being Returned. I can't now, but I know there's a WoB on Theoryland regarding it. I'll pull it in 8 hours if no one else does first.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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46 minutes ago, KnightRadiant said:

In short, Denth is a Returned.

Also, since this is your first post, welcome to the forums :) 

But if the reason why it changes based on his mood is because he's Returned, why didn't Lightsong & Co. have the same ability? 

Also, thanks for the welcome!

 

20 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

  He has the Royal Locks independent of being Returned. I can't now, but I know there's a WoB on Theoryland regarding it. I'll pull it in 8 hours if no one else does first.

Super new Cosmere fan here, so what is "Theoryland"? I googled it and a lot of Wheel of Time things popped up.

Also, do you think that the reason why the Royals ran away is because Vasher/Kalad/Pacemaker/Warbreaker betrayed them by killing one of them (Shashara)?

Also, were they know as the Five Scholars post- or pre- becoming Returned?

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1 hour ago, Knight Radiant Bee said:

But if the reason why it changes based on his mood is because he's Returned, why didn't Lightsong & Co. have the same ability? 

Also, thanks for the welcome!

 

Super new Cosmere fan here, so what is "Theoryland"? I googled it and a lot of Wheel of Time things popped up.

Also, do you think that the reason why the Royals ran away is because Vasher/Kalad/Pacemaker/Warbreaker betrayed them by killing one of them (Shashara)?

Also, were they know as the Five Scholars post- or pre- becoming Returned?

Here's the WoB Spoolofwhool was referring to:

Quote

KURKISTAN

Does Denth have the Royal Locks, independent of being a Returned?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. (Good question.)

source

Theoryland has the Interview Database that contains interviews from both Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson. Sometimes you have to wade through Wheel of Time stuff, but it's usually the best place to look for what Brandon has said about the Cosmere.

 

That is an interesting idea. Given the timing of the Idrian royalty's exile and Shashara's death, it's possible they were related in the way you suggest, but I'm not sure if they considered Shashara one of them after she Returned (modern Idris at least wouldn't be pleased with her consuming and studying Breath) or how much they knew about who killed her. I don't think we have enough details about that time period to say much about how the Scholars, and Shashara in particular, interacted with the Idrian royalty.

Vasher says he doesn't remember his life before Returning, but he does remember being one of the Five Scholars, so it must have been after they became Returned, when they had the opportunity to amass a large amount of Breath. Maybe some of them were involved in scholarly persuits before Returning, but it doesn't seem likely they all knew each other back then. Otherwise Vasher would know more about his previous life. 

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The idea of Royal Family that runned away for Shahara's murder is nice. But if I don't remember wrong the Royal family runned away at the beginning of Manywar. While Shashara died about to the end, She used Nightblood in the final steps of the war and Vasher was disgusted by the being they created....and killed her to stop the possible spreading informations about Nightblood's creation.

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10 hours ago, Knight Radiant Bee said:

But if the reason why it changes based on his mood is because he's Returned, why didn't Lightsong & Co. have the same ability? 

Actually, Returned have much more control over their own body features (including hair) than most of them think. Just like Vasher can make himself not look like a Returned by "suppressing" his Divine Breath, any Returned could change in other ways (and those with the Royal Locks can change things other than their hair to some extent, too). It's obviously different from the Royal Locks because it's something they have to learn rather than being "automatic", so to speak, but they technically do have the ability. I think it's mainly a stronger control over one's Cognitive Image.

We are missing something though. Are the Royal Locks just a feature of children born from Returned, or is it just the Idrian Royal Line? If so, why?

Edited by Eki
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39 minutes ago, Eki said:

We are missing something though. Are the Royal Locks just a feature of children born from Returned, or is it just the Idrian Royal Line? If so, why?

Probably it's a side effect possible from every Returned's son...But in some way you have to "gain it"...Just to say, every Returned's son may be able to gain this feature but you probably need some mental gymnastic to trigger it. In the way I see it, the reason only the Royal line has this (and you may lose it, if you are no more in the royal line) is because the Idris' history teachs this.

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26 minutes ago, Yata said:

Probably it's a side effect possible from every Returned's son...But in some way you have to "gain it"...Just to say, every Returned's son may be able to gain this feature but you probably need some mental gymnastic to trigger it. In the way I see it, the reason only the Royal line has this (and you may lose it, if you are no more in the royal line) is because the Idris' history teachs this.

I guess that could explain why family lines that split from the succession line don't get the Locks... But it would also mean that royal babies don't have the Locks yet. Maybe their children really are taught, in some way. It is "proof" of their heritage, after all.

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Friends, I think you missed the quote @luckat just posted. They had the locks before and independent of being returned. No "son of Returned" involved. Just royal before the ascension.

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@1stBondsmith The quote is specifically saying that Denth has the Royal Locks independent of being a Returned. The reason why the Royal Locks exist in the first place is because Idrian royalty are descended from a Returned, specifically Vo.

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Correct. They had them prior to becoming Returned themselves. Characteristic given to them genetically. Not all returned have royal-locked children (as was the point of getting the marriage in the book). It sounds like only one line from one source.

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1 minute ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Not all returned have royal-locked children (as was the point of getting the marriage in the book)

I don't think we've seen another line of people descended from a Returned, so we can't say this for sure. That's what Eki and Yata are discussing, I believe. To put it another way: if another Returned, completely unrelated to Idrian royalty before death, were to have children, would those children have the Royal Locks?

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Per the Annotations:

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Only Potential Heirs of Idris Have Royal Locks

This is true. It’s not a matter of genetics, but lineage. That’s a subtle distinction. Only the children of the person who ends up inheriting will have the Royal Locks. (Though there are a couple of notable exceptions to this, they won’t show up in this book...

Which means, that in theory Denth is somehow in line to the throne because he has the Royal Locks... unless he is one of the "notable exceptions" mentioned. None of the other 5 Scholars have them and I doubt that other Returned children would have them... though maybe? 

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14 hours ago, luckat said:

Here's the WoB Spoolofwhool was referring to:

source

Theoryland has the Interview Database that contains interviews from both Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson. Sometimes you have to wade through Wheel of Time stuff, but it's usually the best place to look for what Brandon has said about the Cosmere.

 

That is an interesting idea. Given the timing of the Idrian royalty's exile and Shashara's death, it's possible they were related in the way you suggest, but I'm not sure if they considered Shashara one of them after she Returned (modern Idris at least wouldn't be pleased with her consuming and studying Breath) or how much they knew about who killed her. I don't think we have enough details about that time period to say much about how the Scholars, and Shashara in particular, interacted with the Idrian royalty.

Vasher says he doesn't remember his life before Returning, but he does remember being one of the Five Scholars, so it must have been after they became Returned, when they had the opportunity to amass a large amount of Breath. Maybe some of them were involved in scholarly persuits before Returning, but it doesn't seem likely they all knew each other back then. Otherwise Vasher would know more about his previous life. 

Thanks ! I'll probably spend my christmas break on that website now that I know of it! 

Also, the old Austre religion actually didn't condemn Awakening so I feel like they wouldn't disown her or anything like that, but I think @Yata is right about the Royal family running away at the beginning of the Manywar

12 hours ago, Yata said:

The idea of Royal Family that runned away for Shahara's murder is nice. But if I don't remember wrong the Royal family runned away at the beginning of Manywar. While Shashara died about to the end, She used Nightblood in the final steps of the war and Vasher was disgusted by the being they created....and killed her to stop the possible spreading informations about Nightblood's creation.

Thanks for the clarification!

7 hours ago, Eki said:

We are missing something though. Are the Royal Locks just a feature of children born from Returned, or is it just the Idrian Royal Line? If so, why?

Great question! I really hope they don't tho. Like I hope each returned who has had a baby have a different trait like one returned has kids that make their limbs bigger or smaller, or another that has kids with nails that change colour because of their moods, or some other wild things like that, lol

 

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1 hour ago, Knight Radiant Bee said:

Thanks ! I'll probably spend my christmas break on that website now that I know of it!

Exactly what I did the moment I finished catching myself up to date with Cosmere. Definitely why I'm able to pull random WoBs out of my chull because I remember reading them at some point.

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13 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Per the Annotations:

Which means, that in theory Denth is somehow in line to the throne because he has the Royal Locks... unless he is one of the "notable exceptions" mentioned. None of the other 5 Scholars have them and I doubt that other Returned children would have them... though maybe? 

We don't know if other Scholars had them, but Shashara was Denth's sister, so probably she had them as well.

I really want to know if Vo was special somehow, other than being the first Returned. I mean, do we even know if he really was the first one? Maybe there were others, but they died quietly without proclaiming any visions or having their friends set up a kingdom that would remember them.

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@Yata @Knight Radiant Bee the Idrian royal family actually fled toward the end of the war. From Warbreaker Chapter 55:

Quote

I’m . . . sorry for your pain. But your people are not innocent. They’re just like the Hallandren. In the Manywar, you rolled over us, made us your workers and slaves. Only at the end, when the royal family fled, did Idris and Hallandren split.

@Eki those are really good points, and things I might ask about at a signing. Shashara totally should have the Royal Locks. And it's definitely possible Vo was not the first Returned. It seems strange to me that it happened so recently. What was Endowment doing for thousands of years if not making Returned?

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 What was Endowment doing for thousands of years if not making Returned?

Planting pretty flowers? :)

I think she was probably performing quiet miracles on her own.

/begin wild speculation: Then people from a distant place show up and she gets wind of some dirty tricks brewing in Odium’s neck of the woods. She decides that she'll need some more powerful boots on the ground for whatever is coming, and she knows some things about Honor's shenanigans, so she makes her own version of Heralds. (Okay, that's mostly just going off of the similar increased size described in one of the epigraphs...)

Back on topic though, I keep thinking about Denth's assertion that the culture he's from is dead and gone. Can't put my finger on it just now, but it seems important.

Edited by Corax
Typo
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I still think that the Returned were part of Endowment's far future seeing Anti-Odium plan... specifically the part where they created Nightblood. Somehow he's going to be a key to destroying Odium. 

I'm going to have to re-read the portions with Denth, I don't remember him talking about culture being dead and gone. Though that could easily just be the Hallandren culture from before the Manywar...

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9 hours ago, Corax said:

Back on topic though, I keep thinking about Denth's assertion that the culture he's from is dead and gone. Can't put my finger on it just now, but it seems important.

 

8 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I'm going to have to re-read the portions with Denth, I don't remember him talking about culture being dead and gone. Though that could easily just be the Hallandren culture from before the Manywar...

Yeah, I don't remember that either, but it must be pre-Manywar Hallandren since he has the Royal Locks, so he must have been a member of the royal family that fled and formed Idris.

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