The Heirocracy and the War of Loss

[thejopen27]

So we learn that the Heirocracy was an out of control, corrupt preisthood opressing the people and the Sun Maker cast down the arrogant Heirocracy and freed the people of Vorin Roshar from the twisted Dogma of the Vorin Church. Here is the entire entry in the Coppermind for the War of Loss;

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The War of Loss was the war that ended the Hierocracy and its control of Roshar.^[1]

The Vorin church had taken control of much of the world, obfuscating its own doctrine from the common people.^[2] People were taught to follow the ardents instead of the Heralds or the Almighty. They claimed visions from the Almighty himself.

The Sunmaker helped to cast them down and break the Hierocracy.^[2] He investigated the visions and found that they were nothing more than a fabrication designed to placate the people.

Vorinism was then shattered in the Devotaries, and ardents lost much of their power, only able to teach laws, not enforce them.^[1] They were no longer allowed to be involved in politics,^[3]unable to own property, and were actually considered the property of lighteyes.

 

 

Who was the Vorin Church before the War of Loss? Who won the war? Who told this version of the story? Cui bono?

I think the post Recreance Vorin church emerged from the servants, priests, and remnants of the Radiants. I think they stepped into the leadership gap left by the Recreance of the Radiants. Who steps in when the most powerful class in a society, a class that functions as the priests, leaders, generals, scholars, artists, champoins, judges, and heroes of the society, a class that is bound by supernatural oaths to act honorably stops functioning. Someone needs to step in. And the most logical choice initially would be the people closest to the Radiants. I also think that once those people gained power they would try to keep it and therefore try to associate themselves with the Radiants of old while distance themselves from the Recreant Radiants, they would try to hide information. When the Roman empire collapsed in the west the highest power left was the Roman Catholic Church and the church became the power in western Europe.

Just like the Nobility of Europe chaffed under the Roman church, I think the nobility of Eastern Roshar didn't like being underneath the Vorin Church. 

Side note: I don't think being Lighteyed means anything except that the Radiants had Light Eyes and were maybe called Light Eyes and I think the Nobility became those who had lighter eyes through a misunderstanding and because they associated themselves with the Radiants and shardbearers all having lighter eyes, but not Light eyes like the Radiants. 

I think that the War of Loss was a Civil war between the first estate, the clergy of the Vorin Church who were in charge, and the second estate, the Nobility. 

I think the Sunmaker was an Alethi Prince who subjugated, allied with, and persauded the other Alethi Nobility to help him overthrow the Priests to elevate the Nobility over the priests. I don't think it was a high minded war for freedom of thought, I think it was a petty war to see who got to be in charge. And in a move that imitated the enslavement of the Listeners after the last Desolation, the Nobility enslaved the priests and used them to tell their version of history where the church was lying and hiding things from the people (although this may be partially true). It was just a power struggle between the Nobility and the Priesthood. Not that the Priesthood would have been any better than the lighteyes. Kaladin, Sigzil, and Moash's discussions on what would happen if the darkeyes overthrew the lighteyes, the Babatharnum and their eldest rule society illustrate this. I just want to point out that the war probably wasn't what the lighteyes say it was and that we should look at who is telling history and why they would tell it how they tell it. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by thejopen27

[VirtuousTraveller]

I agree entirely that there's more to the Sunmaker conquest than we yet realize.  Vorinism's parallels to the Roman Catholic Church are incredible, namely that during the dark ages of church history, there were obvious problems within the church involving the sale of indulgences, the forgery of old manuscripts to support current dogmas, etc.  After the Recreance, there would have been a power vacuum, but it would have been natural for the structure that surrounded the Radiants to take this leadership on (the people probably looked to them anyways, especially after men greedily took the shardblades/shardplate for themselves).

There's a part of me that wants to see a proto-Bondsmith in the Sunmaker (since he seems so similar to Gavilar and Dalinar, uniting the kingdom and all) or even the corruption of Odium, but I see an equally valuable possibility that this was just as you describe - the powerful nobility throwing down the corrupted authority of the clergy.

[thejopen27]

2 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I agree entirely that there's more to the Sunmaker conquest than we yet realize.  Vorinism's parallels to the Roman Catholic Church are incredible, namely that during the dark ages of church history, there were obvious problems within the church involving the sale of indulgences, the forgery of old manuscripts to support current dogmas, etc.  After the Recreance, there would have been a power vacuum, but it would have been natural for the structure that surrounded the Radiants to take this leadership on (the people probably looked to them anyways, especially after men greedily took the shardblades/shardplate for themselves).

There's a part of me that wants to see a proto-Bondsmith in the Sunmaker (since he seems so similar to Gavilar and Dalinar, uniting the kingdom and all) or even the corruption of Odium, but I see an equally valuable possibility that this was just as you describe - the powerful nobility throwing down the corrupted authority of the clergy.

I don't think there is more to the Sunmaker, I think there is less. Just a powergrab and not a religious revolutionary. I don't think the Vorin church was any more or less corrupt than any other government. A lot of what we hear about them is propaganda by the Lighteyes to discredit and justify their take-over. Just like many counts, electors, mayors, kings of the Holy Roman empire and northern Europe had political disagreements with the Roman Church and used the radical religious revolution as an excuse to break free from Roman and Empirical control. It was an excuse, or a justification, just like the conflict over Seselemex Dar (although I think a mad Herald is twisting that situation as the Tukari God-priest, probably Ishar). 

Edited December 6, 2016 by thejopen27

[VirtuousTraveller]

3 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

I don't think there is more to the Sunmaker, I think there is less. Just a powergrab and not a religious revolutionary.

It was an excuse, or a justification, just like the conflict over Seselemex Dar (although I think a mad Herald is twisting that situation as the Tukari God-priest, probably Ishar). 

No, I agree!  That's what I mean by "there's more than we realize."  It's easy to look at everything in Brandon's stories as some hint of magic or something supernatural, but I think the Sunmaker is a perfect example of a story we'll learn is just that - worldbuilding history.

As for the Hierocracy, THAT'S something I think was influenced by Odium in the wake of the Recreance.  Good people tried to fill the void of leadership, however over the years Odium corrupted this idea into something very different than what it originally was (i.e. the succession of the Knights Radiant).

That Sunmaker "investigated" and found nothing only shows the secular nature of his conquest - "I've defeated the corrupt authorities and their lies!  Now I will break down the Vorin church so it doesn't rise to power again!" (not really caring about the religious implications, but because of their powerful influence in the past).

I had similar thoughts about the Tukari "God-King" after reading Edgedancer too!

Edited December 7, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller

[thejopen27]

4 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

No, I agree!  That's what I mean by "there's more than we realize."  It's easy to look at everything in Brandon's stories as some hint of magic or something supernatural, but I think the Sunmaker is a perfect example of a story we'll learn is just that - worldbuilding history.

As for the Hierocracy, THAT'S something I think was influenced by Odium in the wake of the Recreance.  Good people tried to fill the void of leadership, however over the years Odium corrupted this idea into something very different than what it originally was (i.e. the succession of the Knights Radiant).

That Sunmaker "investigated" and found nothing only shows the secular nature of his conquest - "I've defeated the corrupt authorities and their lies!  Now I will break down the Vorin church so it doesn't rise to power again!" (not really caring about the religious implications, but because of their powerful influence in the past).

I had similar thoughts about the Tukari "God-King" after reading Edgedancer too!

I've suspected the Tukari godking since we learned in WoR that Mraise doesn't think he is fully human or at least not of the local variety. Edgedancer just made me sure it was Ishar. As for the Heirocracy? I think they were just bureaucratic priests and the Sunmaker used propaganda to justify his take-over.

Edited December 7, 2016 by thejopen27