Is Allomancy really of Preservation

[Brightshade the Cunning]

I know that it is widely accepted that the power of Allomancy comes from Preservation. This makes sense in that in order to become an Allomancer you must either ingest, or be a descendant from someone who has ingested, Lerasium. This idea is given further weight by the fact that Preservation gave a bit of himself in order to make humans more preservation minded. However, the nature of the shards of Preservation and Ruin, and their combination in Harmony, reject this idea. The easiest example of this is Ruin and his magic of Hemalurgy, power is taken and the result is less than before. Mathematically put, if you have starting power X and received power Y you would say that X > Y. In Feruchemy you give power to receive it back when needed, while in Allomancy you expend power, by burning metal, giving you the the variable Z for expended power. Mathematically put, Feruchemy would be X = Y and Allomancy would be modeled X + Z < Y.

When you compare these mathematical breakdowns of Scadrial's magic systems to the shards present their, a different reality becomes apparent. With Feruchemy being the only magic system involving the preserving of power, it must be of Preservation. Whereas Allomancy involves the sacrificing of some power in order to gain more, implying it is of Harmony or, more accurately, a balance of the powers of Ruin and Preservation. This idea is given further credit by the fact that even though Preservation gave up some of his power to humans, the only people who cared about preservation as an attribute were the Terrismen, while people in other areas appear to have had a stronger tie to Ruin in their hearts, regardless of the presence of Preservation's power. With that in mind, the ingesting of Lerasium would increase the person's devotion to Preservation, allowing for an equal devotion to both shards, as well as an amount of power that comes directly from a shard.

Thanks for looking at my theory. If you can show me any place where Brandon Sanderson has said anything that proves me wrong, please add a link in your post.

[Spoolofwhool]

Brandon has not been lying to us about Preservation and allomancy.

Quote

ERIC LAKE ()

Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things?

BRANDON SANDERSON

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift—allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

[Source]

 

[Brightshade the Cunning]

Thanks, but that still doesn't prove me wrong.

[Oversleep]

1 hour ago, Brightshade the Cunning said:

This makes sense in that in order to become an Allomancer you must either ingest, or be a descendant from someone who has ingested, Lerasium.

Not true. There were Allomancers before lerasium, although incredibly rare (and I'm not talking about those who were mist-Snapped). Similarly Southeners have seeds of Three Metallical Arts in them so there could sometimes be a Misting among them.

1 hour ago, Brightshade the Cunning said:

This idea is given further weight by the fact that Preservation gave a bit of himself in order to make humans more preservation minded.

There was a quote that "some people who were deeply touched by Preservation were not necessarily good people". I though it was in epigraphs but it's not. Somebody remembers it? Maybe it was a WoB?

Anyway, as for your mathematical model: to preserve equilibrium you actually need to expend energy because of entropy. Allomancy is constant influx of Investiture which preserves the piece of Preservation in Allomancer's soul. That's why it's net-positive.

[Droughtbringer]

7 minutes ago, Brightshade the Cunning said:

Thanks, but that still doesn't prove me wrong.

Okay then, let's break this down in a different viewpoint...using math.

Hemalurgy is obviously Ruin, no problem there.

So discussing allomancy: x + y < z     where is the ruin? If this is of ruin, and we are basing this off of the intent, but there is no degredation of power, there is no sacrifice. The metal, and the user are increasing their power.

 

Now feruchemy X = Y the ruin comes at storing, imagine if you got stuck storing any of the metals, gold; constantly sick, steel; really slow, etc. would you not consider yourself ruined? But you are actually preserving the power, able to call it back at a later date, with the exact same preserved power.

 

Finally, at the AU release party someone asked Brandon about how Ruin could mess with the prophecy while it was in someones metalmind, Brandon said that because Feruchemy is partially Ruins power when someone draws from it, during that short transfer of power Ruin can mess with it.

Conclusion: I like your ideas, keep at it, some time one these obvious thing that everyone accepts will suddenly fall away under close scrutiny and change the world...cosmere....website? (Idk what to say it will change)

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Brightshade the Cunning said:

Thanks, but that still doesn't prove me wrong.

Well, one, it has Brandon directly stating as a Word of God that allomancy is of Preservation, unless you would venture to say that he's directly lying to us, which doubt. Secondly, it explains away your argument in the first and second paragraph of why allomancy increases power, which doesn't follow preservation, when feruchemy would make more sense since it is an actual preservation of power. Yes, as per your original argument, it could just be that our widely held belief on the matter is wrong, but then you would also be arguing that Brandon is just lying to us. 

In addition, the WoB I posted explain why your mathematical reasoning is wrong. Preservation's intent towards the manifestations of investiture produced from his power deals only with the preservation of the user's power. It doesn't preserve the overall energy of the system because that's just the way it worked. So to re-explain the math: If X is someone's personal power, then Xa is always greater than X, where Xa is the power they possess while using allomancy. On the other hand, looking at feruchemy, a person's personal power is not preserved at every given moment. Xs, the power of the person during storage, is always less than X. Yes, their power is preserved over the entire range of time, but that's not what matters.

[Pagerunner]

@Brightshade the Cunning, it's a popular question: we've had several threads discussing this very topic in the last year. [1, 2, and 3] I suggest you read through those, and see what we've already come up with; maybe something in there can address your question.

The way I understand it, it has to do with the meaning behind "Preservation." The Shard isn't about saving things for later; it's more along the lines of perpetual motion, keeping everything working unchanged forever. But, since perpetual motion machines aren't possible, there's always energy required; Allomancy adds energy to the system, end-positive, staving off the heat death of the universe. Hemalurgy removes energy, have an accelerating effect; end-negative. Feruchemy neither gains nor loses power, so it doesn't affect the total entropy. And that's what @Spoolofwhool's quote is illustrating above, that the Shards' intents are tied to the concept of entropy.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Pagerunner

[Spoolofwhool]

42 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

The way I understand it, it has to do with the meaning behind "Preservation." The Shard isn't about saving things for later; it's more along the lines of perpetual motion, keeping everything working unchanged forever. But, since perpetual motion machines aren't possible, there's always energy required; Allomancy adds energy to the system, end-positive, staving off the head death of the universe. Hemalurgy removes energy, have an accelerating effect; end-negative. Feruchemy neither gains nor loses power, so it doesn't affect the total entropy. And that's what @Spoolofwhool's quote is illustrating above, that the Shards' intents are tied to the concept of entropy.

Thank you. That's a better way of putting it than I did. Slight correction though. It's heat death, not head death. Universe doesn't have a head...

Spoiler

Though if Adonalsium is the Cosmere, and he had a physical avatar, then maybe Cosmere had a head until Leras killed it... so he's trying to stop that from happening again.

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Brightshade the Cunning]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Well, one, it has Brandon directly stating as a Word of God that allomancy is of Preservation, unless you would venture to say that he's directly lying to us, which doubt. Secondly, it explains away your argument in the first and second paragraph of why allomancy increases power, which doesn't follow preservation, when feruchemy would make more sense since it is an actual preservation of power. Yes, as per your original argument, it could just be that our widely held belief on the matter is wrong, but then you would also be arguing that Brandon is just lying to us. 

In addition, the WoB I posted explain why your mathematical reasoning is wrong. Preservation's intent towards the manifestations of investiture produced from his power deals only with the preservation of the user's power. It doesn't preserve the overall energy of the system because that's just the way it worked. So to re-explain the math: If X is someone's personal power, then Xa is always greater than X, where Xa is the power they possess while using allomancy. On the other hand, looking at feruchemy, a person's personal power is not preserved at every given moment. Xs, the power of the person during storage, is always less than X. Yes, their power is preserved over the entire range of time, but that's not what matters.

I fully admit that all of that suggests that I am wrong, but you never know how hard Sanderson is trying to mislead you.

[Spoolofwhool]

5 minutes ago, Brightshade the Cunning said:

I fully admit that all of that suggests that I am wrong, but you never know how hard Sanderson is trying to mislead you.

This is true. However, be aware that there is a difference between misleading and flat-out lying when asked to explain a mechanic. He does the former, not the latter, because the latter is a terrible way of dealing with fans. Unless you can suggest a way that "Allomancy is of Preservation" can be interpreted in sone other way which would mislead away from that, I don't see how it can be interpreted as misleading. This would be something your theory needs to sustain itself, else the base premise it stands on ceases to exist.

[skaa]

Ah, yes, the age old question of which Shard owns which power. To defuse the tension here somewhat, allow me to increase the confusion by supplying two of my favorite WoBs on the matter:

 

Quote

 

ANDREW THE GREAT (19 OCTOBER 2008)

Why can Vin fuel Elend's atium-burning, even though Atium is Ruin's Body and Vin is using Preservation? Or did I misread that and he was just burning atium and had run out of everything else?

BRANDON SANDERSON (20 OCTOBER 2008)

Yes, as has been pointed out:

A powerful peace swelled in Elend. His Allomancy flared bright, though he knew the metals inside of him should have burned away. Only atium remained, and the strange power did not—could not—give him this metal. But it didn’t matter. For a moment, he was embraced by something greater. He looked up, toward the sun. (From the text.)

As a note here, the powers granted by all of the metals—even the two divine ones—are not themselves of either Shard. They are simply tools. And so, it's possible that one COULD have found a way to reproduce an ability like atium's while using Preservation's power, but it wouldn't be as natural or as easy as using Preservation to fuel Allomancy.

The means of getting powers—Ruin stealing, Preservation gifting—are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.

 

 

(Source.)

 

Quote

 

CZANOS (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (Minus Atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or Atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

 

 

(Source.)

Emphasis (in bold red) mine.

Enjoy.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Ookla the Insipid

[Voidus]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Insipid said:

Ah, yes, the age old question of which Shard owns which power. To defuse the tension here somewhat, allow me to increase the confusion by supplying two of my favorite WoBs on the matter:

 

 

(Source.)

 

 

(Source.)

Emphasis (in bold red) mine.

Enjoy.

I would have bolded
' Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. '
personally since I think that's the proof that Feruchemy = both, Hemalurgy = Ruin, Allomancy = Preservation.

But yeah as others have mentioned it's been brought up quite frequently but it's pretty clear that Allomancy is of Preservation not Feruchemy.
Which makes sense because in terms of what they do with Investiture all magics are either end neutral, end negative or end positive but there are only three shards that have direct bearing on those traits so we'd have to say that it means that all end-positive magic is Ruin+Preservation, all end negative magic is Ruin and all end-neutral magic is Preservation and no other Shards own any magic.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Don't the Hero of Ages epigraphs have Sazed (as Harmony) stating outright that Allomancy is of Preservation?
I'd hardly think he could be wrong about that, since he is Preservation at that point.

... plus that WoB...

[skaa]

27 minutes ago, Voidus said:

I would have bolded
' Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. '
personally since I think that's the proof that Feruchemy = both, Hemalurgy = Ruin, Allomancy = Preservation.

But that point has already been made in previous posts. The point I was trying to make was that the correlation is not strictly exclusive. It's much more complicated than saying that this power belongs to that Shard. That's why I bolded the parts that I did.

[Brightshade the Cunning]

12 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Unless you can suggest a way that "Allomancy is of Preservation" can be interpreted in sone other way which would mislead away from that, I don't see how it can be interpreted as misleading

I never said Allomancy wasn't of Preservation, I said Allomancy wasn't of Preservation alone.

[18th Shard]

Annotations to Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson

"Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn’t be needed....  Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers."

 

[Spoolofwhool]

11 minutes ago, Brightshade the Cunning said:

I never said Allomancy wasn't of Preservation, I said Allomancy wasn't of Preservation alone.

The implication is that there is an alone in there. Otherwise, it would've been "Allomancy is of Preservation and Ruin," as feruchemy is described.

[Edgedancer]

On 2.12.2016 at 6:53 AM, skaa said:

Ah, yes, the age old question of which Shard owns which power. To defuse the tension here somewhat, allow me to increase the confusion by supplying two of my favorite WoBs on the matter:

 

 

(Source.)

 

 

(Source.)

Emphasis (in bold red) mine.

Enjoy.

So while we're on the topic of confusing things, how does using Allomancy equal preserving the user? Now, I do realize that at first glance the answer seems obvious, you burn steel and you get a fancy power to rely on. Except, that's ignoring part of the picture, isn't it? Of all the metalic arts, Allomancy is the one that can use other metals than the 16 (+god metals) and with those end up making the Allomancer sick or even kill them. I mean, full Feruchemists for example are save from using the wrong metals from how I understand things, so why is the magic system with the closest connection to Preservation the one that can get you killed?

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Edgedancer said:

So while we're on the topic of confusing things, how does using Allomancy equal preserving the user? Now, I do realize that at first glance the answer seems obvious, you burn steel and you get a fancy power to rely on. Except, that's ignoring part of the picture, isn't it? Of all the metalic arts, Allomancy is the one that can use other metals than the 16 (+god metals) and with those end up making the Allomancer sick or even kill them. I mean, full Feruchemists for example are save from using the wrong metals from how I understand things, so why is the magic system with the closest connection to Preservation the one that can get you killed?

In the same way that the Ruinous One (Hemalurgy) may boost your abilities.

Seriously...The Feruchemy too may kill you if you store too much of an vital attribute but you can't judge a system using the wrong uses of it.

PS: It's never happen or said but nothing prevent that a Feruchemist may store in not-compatible metals....in the end simply losing an attribute

Edited December 4, 2016 by Yata

[Edgedancer]

18 minutes ago, Yata said:

In the same way that the Ruinous One (Hemalurgy) may boost your abilities.

Seriously...The Feruchemy too may kill you if you store too much of an vital attribute but you can't judge a system using the wrong uses of it.

PS: It's never happen or said but nothing prevent that a Feruchemist may store in not-compatible metals....in the end simply losing an attribute

The comparision is faulty, because Hemalurgy's ruinous nature has nothing to do with how it affects the user, it has to do with requiring ruinous tasks, Allomancy's nature meanwhile is directly related to it preserving the user and thus it killing the user is in direct contradiction to the reasoning why it's of Preservation.

While I can't find a WOB for the only using the right metals on the fly I could find something talking about not being able to tap too much of an attribute.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

The low end is bounded. You can pull out tons--but in filling, you can only go so far. I didn't ever explicitly talk about this in the series, but the implications are there. Not all have the same bounds, but in your example, the body just can't slow beyond a certain point. Think of it this way--you can only fill a weight metalmind with as much weight as you have to give. So you can become very, very light--but you only add to a time for doubling your weight. You can't make yourself 100,000 times slower and gain 100,000 times multiplication. You can give up all of your normal speed, and so when you tap that speed out you are at 200% for an equal period. (And that's a theoretical maximum; realistically, you can only go to down around 75% slower or the like.)

(http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='feruchemy' Bullet point 49)

Even if I'm interpreting this WOB somehow wrong and you can kill youreslf by tapping too much, that still doesn't explain away how power meant to preserve you can kill you, thus completely contradicting itself.

[Yata]

1 minute ago, Edgedancer said:

Even if I'm interpreting this WOB somehow wrong and you can kill youreslf by tapping too much, that still doesn't explain away how power meant to preserve you can kill you, thus completely contradicting itself.

The power can kill you because you try to filter it with the wrong structure....It's try to make the magic works with a broken tool, there is a nice analogy with Sel

Elantris Spoiler:

Spoiler

The AonDor and the Elantrian stopped to works because the strucure/form of the magic was wrong...and almost all weirdness may happen there.

In the case of the Mistborn (a Misting because it's safe from this problem) you try to force Preservation's Power into a wrong templace...this mean problem/weirdness, but this problems happen inside of you.

 

I am unsure about your previous point about Feruchemy...If you store too much Strenght or Health (for example), you will die. The regular Ferring may store almost 100% of his attributes...if he accept the possibility of death through some of them (other attribute don't create problems)

[Agent34]

On 12/5/2016 at 0:20 AM, Yata said:

I am unsure about your previous point about Feruchemy...If you store too much Strenght or Health (for example), you will die. The regular Ferring may store almost 100% of his attributes...if he accept the possibility of death through some of them (other attribute don't create problems)

I think the WoB addresses this; one cannot store too much and therefore die. They can probably become close in the case of Health by causing blood clotting to slow and infections to continue to spread and the like but I don't think they'd necessarily die. A Feruchemist cannot practically store all of one attribute, the example Brandon gave/responded said about 75% of an attribute.

[Knight Oblivion]

On 12/4/2016 at 3:20 AM, Edgedancer said:

So while we're on the topic of confusing things, how does using Allomancy equal preserving the user? Now, I do realize that at first glance the answer seems obvious, you burn steel and you get a fancy power to rely on. Except, that's ignoring part of the picture, isn't it? Of all the metalic arts, Allomancy is the one that can use other metals than the 16 (+god metals) and with those end up making the Allomancer sick or even kill them. I mean, full Feruchemists for example are save from using the wrong metals from how I understand things, so why is the magic system with the closest connection to Preservation the one that can get you killed?

It's preserving the investiture of the individual from use by fueling the magic through Preservation's own power. 

 

The metals burned are the focus of the magic in essentially the same way an Aon or Aon formula focuses the power of the Dor in AonDor. A bad metal will have a deleterious effect on the Allomancer much in the same way a bad Aon formula will mess up an Elantrian or its target. This seems to be a feature of end-positive magic systems that bluntly channel the external power.

As for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy, both arts actually store power/attributes (this is essentially what Hemalurgy does by ripping chunks of one's spiritweb and grafting it to an individual) for later use instead of shaping raw investiture for use. The metals are thus containers that can store specific things in these arts. Presumably, using anything outside the basic 16 metals (and God metals with their various alloys) for them stores something less noticeable like ability to produce insulin or the ability to produce the electric jolt tht allows the heart to pump. However, we suffer from a lack of perspective from a new Hemalurgist or Feruchemist and an apparent lack of WoB (I haven't seen one through some brief searching). Allomancy has the advantage in that regard thanks to Vin. We simply do not know what happens because all the characters that use Feruchemy and Hemalurgy we see know the basics of the Metallic Arts and about their abilities. All we have is speculation.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Knight Oblivion

[natc]

To begin with Allomancy basically does not mess with innate investiture of the person. Souls or what have you. Whether you kill your physical body using it is a completely different problem entirely; you can burn the right metals and still die from misuse stemming from sheer idiocy. Burning the metal is what shapes power, so it's still part of using the ability. It is merely a heavily automated aspect. If you mess up even something this basic I imagine Hoid facepalming somewhere out there.

 

On that note, Mistings can't seem to burn at all past a certain margin of error in chemical makeup. Mistborn literally have all "safeties" off in this regard, and since they're a naturally all but impossible irregularity using them to judge the system hardly seems fair.

[Oversleep]

On 5.12.2016 at 3:18 PM, Agent34 said:

I think the WoB addresses this; one cannot store too much and therefore die. They can probably become close in the case of Health by causing blood clotting to slow and infections to continue to spread and the like but I don't think they'd necessarily die. A Feruchemist cannot practically store all of one attribute, the example Brandon gave/responded said about 75% of an attribute.

Feruchemist can store all of one attribute. They'd probably die doing so. The practical limit is 75% (if you store all of your speed... I'm not sure what happens on cellular level but certainly your heart will stop).

The whole thing with Allomancy being of preservation can be seen in two ways:

1. The Snapping is a self-preservance mechanism... (it happens due to extreme strain on the soul - it's usually pain or strong emotions - but it can also be extreme joy. Rare, but possible)

2. The flow of the power into you preserves the piece of Preservation in your soul. It makes sense as you need to constantly expend energy to counteract entropy maintaining equilibrium.