Waning, ch. 5 (V, L) (4276 words)

[neongrey]

Chapter 5, Lasila 3; we stop alternating next time because Lasila 4 will need to follow immediately. I'm not after anything too specific here, so do what your heart tells you for your callouts. 

Couple things though: * since starting this version, I've been including epigraphs and no one has commented on them. Have they been helpful? Interesting? Have you just been skipping them?

* In the second section, after Lasila's questions about the lawyer are answered, is anyone being unreasonable? If so, who?

* I have a couple other concerns but more of the 'turn you loose and see if anyone notices' variety, so.

Previously in Lasila's story: On the eve of the living goddess Alia's death, two things happen that will change Lasila's life: she takes on a new client and her brother announces he's leaving to assist with peace talks. The work for the client promises to be routine marriage contract negotiation, and her brother is adamant that this is a real chance to end the decades-long war that's been draining the city dry. Nothing will sway him, no matter how greatly Lasila objects to him, her only living family, leaving her entirely alone.

Matters only complicate when Lasila goes to pay her respects to the fallen goddess, and she encounters the mysterious priestess Maranthe who informs her that she is thick with the gifts to work shudkathra magic: the magic of the enemy, who use it in war to call down disease and demons. Maranthe implies that if Lasila would know more of this, she should attend an upcoming celebration to honour the rebirth of the goddess.

(surrounding these chapters, we learn that the goddess' death is not as routine as is being put about: we encounter her murderer, a moon-kissed boy/girl forced into collusion with the moon-priest Savae, who we last saw leaving to destroy one of the canals that forces water throughout the city)

This time: The routine contract negotiation turns complicated with the emergence of the other party's lawyer, and Lasila goes to meet with him.

[Mandamon]

Epigraphs: I always like them. Just haven't commented on them. They seem fine. Are they connected to the story, or just in world references that are somewhat related to the chapter?

pg 1: "It's the main canal that serves my neighbourhood," she says, slumping in her seat"
--this seems to come out of nowhere. Not sure what she's talking about.

pg 2: Eyes starting to glaze over during all the details of the proposal. Not sure how much it matters to the story.

pg 4: "letting her shoulders fall forward just so"
--Why? Varinen isn't looking at her

pg 4/5: The discussion between Lasila and Varinen is good. I didn't think anyone was unreasonable. Varinen had some good points about her safety and advice on the senator. Lasila had the same concerns of Varinen leaving her to run a household.

pg 6/7: the attack is well done. Gives us some information on the magic system.

[kais]

I always like a good epigraph. I generally only comment on things that stick out to me, whether good or bad. If I haven't commented on them, likely they just haven't struck me.

Overall

The first page and a half dragged, but it really picked up after that. The alley scene was very well done and I like the blinding part. Leaves a lot of questions and is a solid hook. The conversation with the siblings was very emotion-invoking this time, too. Nice work!

As I go

- Page two: LOL! Harsh critique of her last partner. But then, we've all been with that one woman...

- page two: aside from the amusing previous-partner lines, I'm not really engaged with the text until here: They're interrupted only once

- page 4: brother/sister dialogue here is nice

- the first paragraph on page five is the first time I have ever really connected with Lasilia and her struggle. Love it

- good end! 

[neongrey]

5 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Epigraphs: I always like them. Just haven't commented on them. They seem fine. Are they connected to the story, or just in world references that are somewhat related to the chapter?

They're pretty much always highly relevant, though I generally go full oblique on how they relate (and apparently feel urges to get more referential in them; but then, I was listening to a lot of Year Zero when I did this one's epigraph.............). 3's was actually our introduction to Senator Melqueth and his politics. But they're a means of dribbling need-to-know information in ways that won't interfere with the main text. And it's another means of foreshadowing, which I tend to apply with a trowel to everything. And nobody's said anything so I've been wondering if they were doing their job.

 

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pg 1: "It's the main canal that serves my neighbourhood," she says, slumping in her seat"
--this seems to come out of nowhere. Not sure what she's talking about.

It's directly referential to her disheveled appearance, but if that needs clearing up it needs clearing up.

 

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pg 2: Eyes starting to glaze over during all the details of the proposal. Not sure how much it matters to the story.

I'm gonna ask you to dig a little deeper here, because I need more on this. Specifically, what is giving you the impression that this is non-pertinent?

 

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pg 4: "letting her shoulders fall forward just so"
--Why? Varinen isn't looking at her

She isn't expecting he'll stay turned away the whole time, and even that aside your own carriage affects how you sound. Doing that sort of thing shoulders-square, straight-backed will still sound a lot more confident than she wants to sound. So she changes her whole body language to match the impression she wants to give. It's one of those things that's a bit too instinctive to exposit but it's also fairly well-grounded in real-world stuff.

3 hours ago, kaisa said:

I always like a good epigraph. I generally only comment on things that stick out to me, whether good or bad. If I haven't commented on them, likely they just haven't struck me.

Fair cop. Again, just wanted to make sure they're doing their job. 

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Overall

The first page and a half dragged, but it really picked up after that. The alley scene was very well done and I like the blinding part. Leaves a lot of questions and is a solid hook. The conversation with the siblings was very emotion-invoking this time, too. Nice work!

Yeah, I'm definitely feeling it works better there with the shorter age gap; there's less obligation for him to be in charge of her so him actually wanting to have his own damnation life isn't coming off as badly anymore. The thing about Lasila is that taken as individual pieces a lot of her positions would be fine but they're all bricks in the 'Lasila is an awful person' wall. And there's an undercurrent that while she doesn't really want him getting in the way of her life, she's still basically demanding that he remain at her disposal. But this is slightly closer to subtext than text so. She's got legitimate concerns and legitimate issues with him going, but.................

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As I go

- Page two: LOL! Harsh critique of her last partner. But then, we've all been with that one woman...

I'm a little more thinking that her last girlfriend dodged a bullet (even if she was lousy in the sack)... but then, I wouldn't want to get dumped for not taking a prestigious enough job...

This bit sort of frustrates me because it's part and parcel of the bisexual's dilemma. I think it should be fairly clear by this point that Lasila's fairly attracted to women (men hasn't come up because the only male she's interacted with is her brother) and there's definitely some sexual tension with Iluya which I need to fold back in because it was far more present in the original, but both of Lasila's primary love interests are men... and Iluya has a similar problem, too. I feel like doing more with the two of them together in that regard but then one runs into the problem of, again, both of them going for men overall, which, i mean, is fine, they're bi, but augh.

And here I am placing a relationship with a woman but it's very much in the past and aaaaaaaaaugh

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- page two: aside from the amusing previous-partner lines, I'm not really engaged with the text until here: They're interrupted only once

again, same sort of question as for Mandamon: what's feeling less significant about this?

In particular, the exclusivity clauses (and the related relationship polygons (I just drew an org chart. if i rearrange it slightly it forms a trapezoid with no bottom)(i could post it but there are ~spoilers~ lol)) here are highly plot critical, so if I'm losing people around here, that's an issue. The next chapter also has a fair bit of hammering out details around those clauses, so...

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- the first paragraph on page five is the first time I have ever really connected with Lasilia and her struggle. Love it

Interesting, because that's one of those bits that I worried about putting in; it's sort of built up to earlier on what with her bits about actually squeezing money out of the war, but this is the first real solid indication that Lasila really doesn't actually want anything to get better if it means she doesn't directly benefit. And it felt pretty heavy-handed to me doing it like this, so, hmm. But, y'know, if it works, it works.

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- good end! 

Lasila is, if nothing else, an expert in both faking it until she makes it and being absolutely, 100% stone-cold. It comes in handy sometimes. Hehe.

Edited November 29, 2016 by neongrey

[kais]

2 hours ago, neongrey said:

i mean, is fine, they're bi, but augh.

Yeah, but you've laid the groundwork. That's enough. Ne is bi too but only ever thinks about or does stuff with M. Unless you're writing a poly character or character in serial monogamy stints throughout the book, a bisexual character will likely skew one way or another. I wouldn't worry about it. 

2 hours ago, neongrey said:

what's feeling less significant about this?

It's just boring. I get that its plot critical, but I have to really work to digest the information and force myself to focus. It might need to be presented differently, like in thought or dialogue maybe? Make it more active?

2 hours ago, neongrey said:

And it felt pretty heavy-handed to me doing it like this

I thought it was great!

 

[neongrey]

5 minutes ago, kaisa said:

Yeah, but you've laid the groundwork. That's enough. Ne is bi too but only ever thinks about or does stuff with M. Unless you're writing a poly character or character in serial monogamy stints throughout the book, a bisexual character will likely skew one way or another. I wouldn't worry about it. 

Well, that is the thing, really, and that's part of why Iluya's exclusivity clause is so significant; there's a fair bit of polyamory of various sorts going around here (and not much of the form of stable multiparty groups format; eg there's a triangle formed between Iluya, Eshrin, and Lasila, but at no point the three of them all together (which would be bad news)).

Actually, here's the org chart. Mind there's some spoilers and one character who's never appeared in any material I've submitted and is honestly not terribly significant but still fills out the arm there. But this is all simultaneously. I mean. Not like in the same room simultaneously but yeah.

I dunno though, I feel like it's a little bit different with yours because they're both women and I'm kind of hemming and hawing and hoping it doesn't look like I'm doing the ol' 'girls are fun ~until you get a man~' sort of thing. But I dunno realistically nobody's in what I would call a traditional romantic relationship anyway.

I dunno, I'm probably overthinking things and how they'll come off in this particular sense. I do that a lot; I spent ages worrying about Lasila in general until I read a thing that's basically doing a similar thing with toxic masculinity that I'm going for with neoliberal white feminism (to wit, expressing disgust while beeing deeply and inevitably tainted by its influence; at least, this was my reading. most of the reviews on goodreads were talking about 'testosterone' and 'badass' and sighhhhh) that honestly didn't always succeed, and that was actually pretty reassuring. So yeah.

19 minutes ago, kaisa said:

It's just boring. I get that its plot critical, but I have to really work to digest the information and force myself to focus. It might need to be presented differently, like in thought or dialogue maybe? Make it more active?

A fair cop. I think what I'll do with this is wait until I've done the next chapter before thoroughly going over that bit, because the subject comes up with Adrichel as they go over things, and the two bits should complement each other, so I'll want to see what I've got to work with both sides.

[kais]

it's.... it's actually called a 'humping org chart'....

@neongrey I think I love you.

[neongrey]

look there's a lot of bits going into other bits and one needs to keep them straight! hehe

or, you know, not straight, as the case may be

[Mandamon]

12 hours ago, neongrey said:

I'm gonna ask you to dig a little deeper here, because I need more on this. Specifically, what is giving you the impression that this is non-pertinent?

I don't mean the contract is non-pertinent. The language you use, however, is very technical and not clear to me. Lots of talk of clauses, assets, and exclusivity. Not being a lawyer, I don't really understand (or care) what all this stuff means. 

For instance, I feel like this line is important: "Lasila, naturally, does not ask why Iluya requires no exclusivity with her husband," but I have no idea what it means.

Lasila might very well talk like this, as she is a lawyer. But as a reader, I want you to tell me why it matters to the plot without me having to look up legal phrases.

 

[Yados]

I read this chapter but I haven't read the others so my feedback is going to be a bit limited to flow and tone rather than plot or world since I'm not a fair judge of those in this context.

Overall

This is interesting. I am having a hard time "seeing" the world aside from the little bits specifically described... but I shouldn't need to know everything from jumping in after 5 chapters. I'm picturing 1930s new york but it's all bird people (angels?), but for all I know that's way off base. 

Overall, I like it. It's slow at first but picks up. I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to like this character or not, but then again, this seems like a very distinct pov and presently I have nothing to contrast it with. 

I think if you're going to start with a conversations between different characters until the last few pages, you might want to punch up the dialogue just a bit. I didn't feel like any of the characters had a distinct "voice" even as the pov character seemed distinct in the ways she thought and the things she noticed. 

Present tense is definitely working for me. 

I guess my main question about this is how much of this chapter's pov is the character and how much is you? Is this how you normally write or are the attentions to particular details and the, I don't know, sternness, consciously a character choice?

I don't know how helpful and of that is, but I'm definitely happy to be along for the ride. 

As I Go

Okay. Bird people, I think. 

Contracts. 

Cool. Gay bird lady. Who is a lawyer and something with magic. 

And it's also a law firm? Feels authentic in that capacity. 

Not keeping up with the politics, but that's probably on me. 

Okay, mugging. Nice. Magic. Why is it "they"? Is that a world thing or she can't determine the gender or something else?

She seems really aggressive and angry beyond just being mugged/her plans being messed up. Indignant. Very powerful pov. 

Secret magic on top of a world where there's a bunch of other stuff going on seems a little  hard to parse, but I could be misunderstanding how power is distributed in this world. 

[neongrey]

53 minutes ago, Yados said:

I read this chapter but I haven't read the others so my feedback is going to be a bit limited to flow and tone rather than plot or world since I'm not a fair judge of those in this context.

Overall

This is interesting. I am having a hard time "seeing" the world aside from the little bits specifically described... but I shouldn't need to know everything from jumping in after 5 chapters. I'm picturing 1930s new york but it's all bird people (angels?), but for all I know that's way off base. 

I very, very meticulously avoid direct real-world reference in the overall setting design but that's closer than not; there's little to no mechanization so I'd err earlier than that if I was drawing parallels myself but there's also a sort of economic decay that comes with depression-era stuff which is apt. So no, not off base at all.

53 minutes ago, Yados said:

Overall, I like it. It's slow at first but picks up. I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to like this character or not, but then again, this seems like a very distinct pov and presently I have nothing to contrast it with. 

Unsure is probably correct. She's the main character so the goal is to enjoy reading her but liking...

53 minutes ago, Yados said:

I think if you're going to start with a conversations between different characters until the last few pages, you might want to punch up the dialogue just a bit. I didn't feel like any of the characters had a distinct "voice" even as the pov character seemed distinct in the ways she thought and the things she noticed. 

Hmmm. I'll take a look at that.

53 minutes ago, Yados said:

Present tense is definitely working for me. 

I guess my main question about this is how much of this chapter's pov is the character and how much is you? Is this how you normally write or are the attentions to particular details and the, I don't know, sternness, consciously a character choice?

This is pure POV writing. Lasila's very restrained, very cold, self-centered, hyper-conscious of appearances.

53 minutes ago, Yados said:

Not keeping up with the politics, but that's probably on me. 

In this I won't sweat that so much; it's a broad intro, so if you're not getting everything yet the important thing is just having names and positions in your head.

53 minutes ago, Yados said:

Okay, mugging. Nice. Magic. Why is it "they"? Is that a world thing or she can't determine the gender or something else?

In this I will say 'yes'. English-wise this is they-unknown but the language and culture used internal to the story is trinary-gendered so one is generally inclined to hold to the unknown a bit longer than one would in English.

53 minutes ago, Yados said:

She seems really aggressive and angry beyond just being mugged/her plans being messed up. Indignant. Very powerful pov. 

Yeah she's not a nice person. Or a good person. How much walter white I shake into my frankandclaire underwood changes from time to time but those are the sorts of direct antecedents I'm looking at.

53 minutes ago, Yados said:

Secret magic on top of a world where there's a bunch of other stuff going on seems a little  hard to parse, but I could be misunderstanding how power is distributed in this world. 

There is a lot going on all at once, yeah. I have some concerns but I think this will work out. For Lasila, everything subordinates to the political/financial plots.

[neongrey]

7 hours ago, Mandamon said:

I don't mean the contract is non-pertinent. The language you use, however, is very technical and not clear to me. Lots of talk of clauses, assets, and exclusivity. Not being a lawyer, I don't really understand (or care) what all this stuff means. 

For instance, I feel like this line is important: "Lasila, naturally, does not ask why Iluya requires no exclusivity with her husband," but I have no idea what it means.

Lasila might very well talk like this, as she is a lawyer. But as a reader, I want you to tell me why it matters to the plot without me having to look up legal phrases.

 

That's... not a legal phrase at all, actually; that's a relationship phrase and not something that occurred to me as being obscure in the slightest (especially given surrounding context; serious question because I'm not sure I understand how you're reading: do you habitually stop mid-sentence or mid-paragraph and move downward when you're reading?); Iluya's putting her foot down on requiring an open marriage. Hmmm.

I mean by and large I'm ok with some jargon that needs to be picked up via context clues but if it's something that basic, hmm.

Yeah, I think the thing to do is do the next bit and use that to backpin in for clarity. Thanks.

Edited November 29, 2016 by neongrey

[rdpulfer]

- It seems a little weird we don't get her brother's reaction to the revelation from the last chapter (though I do like her thoughts on him leaving.)

- I do like to see a return to the legal side of things - even though it's something of a break from the main story - it's cool to see Lasila doing something other than just attending parties and getting information.

- I do like the flow of the present tense, in particular with the line "not so ready that Lasila won't go looking for weapons.".

- I do like Lissa's interaction with her brother when it finally happens.

- Okay, I like the ending of the chapter, but noticing you are not bleeding after a mugging is not a normal reaction . . . especially given all the things Lasilla is knee-deep in. I get she's busy, but she needs a better reason to pass off her lack of physical harm.

[neongrey]

40 minutes ago, rdpulfer said:

- It seems a little weird we don't get her brother's reaction to the revelation from the last chapter (though I do like her thoughts on him leaving.)

Yeah, one thing I do regret is losing the scene that was there before, but I think I ended up coming down on it not actually adding all that much, its point having been lost since Lasila's going to get her escort in a different way, and ultimately, it not being all that important to Lasila what he thinks. So I dunno. I think it stays gone.

40 minutes ago, rdpulfer said:

- I do like to see a return to the legal side of things - even though it's something of a break from the main story - it's cool to see Lasila doing something other than just attending parties and getting information.

Oh, goodness no, it's not a break at all, hehe.

40 minutes ago, rdpulfer said:

- I do like the flow of the present tense, in particular with the line "not so ready that Lasila won't go looking for weapons.".

Yeah, I'm satisfied with that change, I think. There's always people who don't like present tense and will always make sure you know how much they hate present tense but whatever really.

40 minutes ago, rdpulfer said:

- I do like Lissa's interaction with her brother when it finally happens.

- Okay, I like the ending of the chapter, but noticing you are not bleeding after a mugging is not a normal reaction . . . especially given all the things Lasilla is knee-deep in. I get she's busy, but she needs a better reason to pass off her lack of physical harm.

Hmm, is that how it's seeming? She was bleeding, a surface cut but quite a lot; there was blood that she both felt and saw. And the blood stopped... oh, right about the time she blinded them. In theory it should be guessable that there's a relation between the two before Lasila puts that together; I don't mind if the reader doesn't guess it on their own, and it is out of place that she's not bleeding, but if it's seeming like a contrivance so that she gets where she's going without apparent disturbance...

[Mandamon]

5 hours ago, neongrey said:

That's... not a legal phrase at all, actually; that's a relationship phrase and not something that occurred to me as being obscure in the slightest (especially given surrounding context; serious question because I'm not sure I understand how you're reading: do you habitually stop mid-sentence or mid-paragraph and move downward when you're reading?); Iluya's putting her foot down on requiring an open marriage. Hmmm.

I mean by and large I'm ok with some jargon that needs to be picked up via context clues but if it's something that basic, hmm.

Yeah, I think the thing to do is do the next bit and use that to backpin in for clarity. Thanks.

Ah, there's the disconnect, I am thinking of "exclusivity" in the legal definition (non-exclusive rights, for example), since they were talking about the marriage of two influential people. I'm sure they have multiple holdings and interests, and you mentioned "assets" in the last sentence.

Keep in mind I'm also coming at this as having been happily married for 12 years, so I don't often think of non/exclusivity in relationships. Make sense now, but keep in mind you may have to pound the meaning into those of us with denser skulls ;-) "Open marriage" gets the point across to me a lot easier.

To answer your other question, I will sometimes stop in the middle of a paragraph or even sentence when something strikes me as odd. I sometimes have to go back and erase or adjust a comment because it's literally explained in the next sentence after I comment on it.

[neongrey]

25 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

Ah, there's the disconnect, I am thinking of "exclusivity" in the legal definition (non-exclusive rights, for example), since they were talking about the marriage of two influential people. I'm sure they have multiple holdings and interests, and you mentioned "assets" in the last sentence.

Keep in mind I'm also coming at this as having been happily married for 12 years, so I don't often think of non/exclusivity in relationships. Make sense now, but keep in mind you may have to pound the meaning into those of us with denser skulls ;-) "Open marriage" gets the point across to me a lot easier.

Okay yeah, I think that's not quite the phrasing I would go for internally but that really helps me narrow down the problem. And with cleaning that bit up some I should hopefully make it be more interesting.

This is one of those things that's just super important both plotwise and characterwise to nail down; the iluya-eshrin subplot requires it, and character-wise... for whatever reason cheating is one of those things that always gets a really harsh negative reaction about a character. So, nail down early, nail down hard that whatever Iluya's doing, it's not cheating... won't solve every perceptual problem that way, but, y'know, all i can do is lead the horse to water.

25 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

To answer your other question, I will sometimes stop in the middle of a paragraph or even sentence when something strikes me as odd. I sometimes have to go back and erase or adjust a comment because it's literally explained in the next sentence after I comment on it.

Okay, hmm, thanks. That helps some; it's not how I read at all so sometimes I find myself scratching my head at how you arrive at some of the takes that you do. I tend to pick up a whole paragraph at a time and read back if I feel like I missed something. (which is probably why ginormous paragraphs are such an issue for me to read)

[Robinski]

More comments. Great chapter title and good epigraph.

• “If that's the only error she's caught there's probably others” – there are.

• “The token seems not to not be entirely sufficient here” – I’ve been working at not tagging split infinitive’s but this one’s a beauty.

• “catching to only suggest at form” – This phrasing is unclear to me. I can see what it’s getting at, but I’m not sure you suggest ‘at’ something. You could (should) drop ‘at’ altogether.

• From the phrasing, it seems to me that maybe ‘meted out during the day’ was intended in relation to the rationing of her confidence.

• “Las glances from side to side, but the street she's wandered down just has blank white walls facing it. The street is-- too far away, on either side” – I feel there is confusion here. She looks side to side in the street, then the street is too far away. The second reference is, I presume, to the main street at either end of the side street that she is in? I think it’s clear some distinction is needed here.

• There are four ‘buts’ in four lines where she tried to get free from the mugger. Doesn’t sound great.

• I like the encounter with the mugger, good tension, good threat. I wasn’t sure what was going to happen there, and felt the pacing of the encounter was good. Maybe Las got just a bit more thinking time than I might have expected, but I was 75% convinced by her first application of magic. It felt reasonable that there were few details, since she is untrained.

I think this chapter is a strong addition to the last version of the story that I read, which I seem to recall lacked this kind of urgent threat (of violence). Not that the last version did not have strengths in intrigue and drama, but I think the pacing is a lot stronger now that Las has more agency. Good job.

<R>

[neongrey]

On 2/5/2017 at 6:50 PM, Robinski said:

There are four ‘buts’ in four lines where she tried to get free from the mugger.

yeah, I do that, obviously, lol. thanks

On 2/5/2017 at 6:50 PM, Robinski said:

I like the encounter with the mugger, good tension, good threat. I wasn’t sure what was going to happen there, and felt the pacing of the encounter was good. Maybe Las got just a bit more thinking time than I might have expected, but I was 75% convinced by her first application of magic. It felt reasonable that there were few details, since she is untrained.

I'm actually really surprised by how well the tension in this bit seems to work for people just because of how much of a paper threat it really is from my end, but you know, I'm not complaining.

On 2/5/2017 at 6:50 PM, Robinski said:

threat (of violence)

yeah this story's relationship to physical violence is, hmm. Savae's story treats it one way, Lasila's another. Hers is not one where the primary threat to her is physical harm. And how the violence is addressed is done so accordingly...