Ym's Order [Edgedancer Spoilers]

[Djarskublar]

I am up in the air as to the deal with Ym's Order, but here were my initial thoughts along with some points I have noticed since I read.

First is that he was most likely a proto-Edgedancer based on Wyndle's comment about watching the old cobbler.

The other main camp is that he was a proto-Truthwatcher. This doesn't have a ton of evidence for it, but it is something to consider.

My initial theory was that he was both. I was in the Truthwatcher camp, so seeing them consider him as an Edgedancer made me react with 'oh storms! he was both!'

The only solid evidence I know of for this is how reticent Brandon has been about telling us his order. Taken in the light of him being a potential member of two orders, this makes a lot more sense.

[Toaster Retribution]

His spren did not look like Wyndle as far as I remember, so that would mark him a Truthwatcher. Then, since Truthwatchers and Edgedancers share a power, they might be a bit similar personality wise. But anyway, the fact that Wyndle and co chose Lift, makes me believe that the Truthwatcher-spren chose him. I dont know if the Edgedancer-spren would have sent two spren away. So I am now in the Ym as a Truthwatcher camp.

The only problem with this is that Stump, Ym and Renarin all might be Truthwatchers. However, we are not sure about Stump, and she might be a replacement for Ym. As for Renarin, there are some theories about wierd stuff going on with him and his spren, so he might not be a Truthwatcher either. 

[Yata]

@Chull #445 You have to remember that Lift is most affine in the Cognitive than a standard Human being, She may see her Spren as He is in the Cognitive instead of his look on the physical. Therefore it's normal than she see a Cultivation spren differently than other Edgedancer.

@Djarskublar Ym was considerate as an Edgedander's candidate three years before the current time, He may be progressed almost at any point in that time. Honestly he manage to use efficiently and willing a Surge. This is not a proto-radiant thing (of course I don't think he is beyond the first oath).

[Landis963]

Ym's spren is described as "crystals in a sunbeam... little strands of light grew from it like vines."  This appears to be a dead ringer for Wyndle (except, of course, that Lift-vision can see more of him), except that Ym's spren talks with a female voice.  Stump describes her spren as "light reflected from a mirror."  (Which muddles the issue somewhat - Ym's spren is described by the author in Ym's voice, while Stump's is described by Stump)

[Djarskublar]

Well, one way or another, my initial thought was both. It certainly would explain why he wouldn't tell us.

I am currently leaning towards the Edgedancer camp, but I thought that my initial thoughts were worth going over just to broaden the discussion.

[Amanuensis]

I think I'm leaning towards Ym (and Stump) being proto-Truthwatcher(s), and it's mostly because of this statement: 

Quote

"Did you know we were considering bonding this nice cobbler man instead of you?"

Emphasis mine.

The primary definition of the word consider is "think carefully about (something), typically before making a decision." Since Ym was in the bonding stage, that implies action on the part of the cultivationspren. Instead would mean that they can only bond one or the other. I might be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure both Ym and Lift had a Spren at the same time. While Ym could have certainly become an Edgedancer with the proper guidance, I don't think what we know of him and what we know of the Edgedancers align quite that well, especially compared to Lift, and I can see more similarities between Ym and Stump than I can with Lift.

Also, likely that bit about the light growing like vines doesn't really sound like cultivationspren to me, I just think it's a result of the spren being closer to Cultivation than Honor.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Ciridae]

The first time I read it I was sure that Ym (and Stump too since their spren are described so similarly) was an Edgedancer. Their actions do line up nicely with remembering/helping those who have been forgotten and ignored. 

@Amanuensis, that's a good point, but the Edgedancer spren could have sent more of their kind since Wyndle bonded Lift. He says that a motivation for bonding her was her connection to the Old Magic, but that doesnt mean that different Edgedancer spren wouldnt then later bond the other candidate(s). I dont think that only because Edgedancers amd Truthwatchers share a surge, they necessarily have similar ideologies. Windrunners and Skybreakers seem to have very different views on what is right, for example. 

Also, seeing that the Truthwatchers are opposite to the Bondsmiths, it has been theorized that they both bond special spren or have god-surges. Assuming that Renarin really is a Truthwatcher (which I'm not sure about if I'm honest), it would be weird to suddenly have so many others like him.

[ZenBossanova]

2 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

The first time I read it I was sure that Ym (and Stump too since their spren are described so similarly) was an Edgedancer. Their actions do line up nicely with remembering/helping those who have been forgotten and ignored. 

@Amanuensis, that's a good point, but the Edgedancer spren could have sent more of their kind since Wyndle bonded Lift. He says that a motivation for bonding her was her connection to the Old Magic, but that doesnt mean that different Edgedancer spren wouldnt then later bond the other candidate(s). I dont think that only because Edgedancers amd Truthwatchers share a surge, they necessarily have similar ideologies. Windrunners and Skybreakers seem to have very different views on what is right, for example. 

Also, seeing that the Truthwatchers are opposite to the Bondsmiths, it has been theorized that they both bond special spren or have god-surges. Assuming that Renarin really is a Truthwatcher (which I'm not sure about if I'm honest), it would be weird to suddenly have so many others like him.

I am really not sure what is going on with Renarin. I want it to be awesome, but right now, I wouldn't rule anything out. 

[nervousnerd]

Yeah. After reading Edgedancer I just assumed that, after Wyndle was sent to Lift, they decided to keep bonding to more edgedancers. I also thought that Stump seeing a mirror would somehow fit a Truthwatcher better.

[thejopen27]

I am convinced that Ym and Stump for sure are becoming Truthwatchers. Renarin I'm less sure, but still pretty sure. The attributes of Paliah and the Truthwatchers are Learned and Giving. Both Stump and Ym are demonstrating the giving trait while they learn about the people in their lives, while Renarin demonstrates the Learned more obviously and he has shown a willingness to help, even if he isn't as openly charitable as Stump and Ym. It has been implied that some Spren (including Cultivationspren) have only sent one spren to bond but we don't know if that's true for any of them. What if Ym's Spren went in search of a new bondmate after Ym died who showed the same attributes as Ym, while another Lightspren?? was looking for a more learned person to bond. Wyndle implies that he is the only Cultivationspren currently bonded and the attributes of Truthwatchers (Learned, Giving) soundvery similar to Edgedancers (Loving, Healing). It would make sense that Cultivationspren and (Lightspren?) would consider similar candidates. Kaladin was a less terrible life away from being a Skybreaker, If Dalinar thought more like a soldier and less like a general he might be a Windrunner. If Shallan hadn't been so creative she could have been a Truthwatcher. 

 

I also think that the Spren of Ym and Stump sound like a cross between the crystals of Cultivationspren and the patterns of Cryptics. 

[emailanimal]

On 11/27/2016 at 9:17 PM, thejopen27 said:

Renarin I'm less sure, but still pretty sure.

So... this puzzles me... We do have the "Radiant Gathering" scene at the end of WoR where Renarin names himself one. Why are you "less sure"?

[Jofwu]

Stump's description of her spren made me assume Truthwatcher at first. I can see how Wyndle would look like Ym's spren without Lift-vision. Stump's description was too lacking, and the "mirror" feels Truthwatcher-y to me.

But this thread has made me rethink it. Stump's description is too vague to put much weight in it, and it's easy to see how it might be a cultivationspren after all. On top of this, both Ym and Stump seem like textbook Edgedancers to me when you consider their activity. Doesn't get much more "remember those who have been forgotten" and "listen to those who have been ignored" than taking care of orphans. Even if Stump is as grouchy and selfish as she seems... It's still something.

And yes, Wyndle was sent to Lift rather than Ym (or someone else). But that was three years ago, and he presumably hasn't been in contact with his fellow cultivationspren. I'd be surprised if they hadn't sent out more of their kind in that time.

[Toaster Retribution]

8 hours ago, emailanimal said:

So... this puzzles me... We do have the "Radiant Gathering" scene at the end of WoR where Renarin names himself one. Why are you "less sure"?

I think there are theories that says that Renarin is fooled to believe that he is becoming a Radiant, while in fact, he is affected by something else (Odium, I think). I do not know it very well myself, but if you look around a bit, you will probably find it.

[emailanimal]

6 minutes ago, Chull #445 said:

I think there are theories that says that Renarin is fooled to believe that he is becoming a Radiant, while in fact, he is affected by something else (Odium, I think). I do not know it very well myself, but if you look around a bit, you will probably find it.

Fair enough, although the one blurb about the order of Truthwatchers we do have seems to be consistent with what is going on with Renarin.  I myself have little doubt about it.

[Yata]

9 minutes ago, Chull #445 said:

I think there are theories that says that Renarin is fooled to believe that he is becoming a Radiant, while in fact, he is affected by something else (Odium, I think). I do not know it very well myself, but if you look around a bit, you will probably find it.

He can use Stormlight and in the next book probably Shallan would try make some experiments with him, She has a block with the Illumination surge and he may be the "standard" user of Illumination.

Anyway I think that Glys's plan (if there is something like this) to fake Radiancy....it's quite a stupid plan, He can't actually performe the feat almost all associate with the KR, He would be discovered in a very little time.

[djammmer]

On 11/29/2016 at 7:45 AM, Yata said:

Anyway I think that Glys's plan (if there is something like this) to fake Radiancy....it's quite a stupid plan, He can't actually performe the feat almost all associate with the KR, He would be discovered in a very little time.

I don't think that it's such a stupid plan. Of the current KRs we know, only Jasnah has extensive knowledge due to her studies... and that is from books 100s/1000s years old.  Outside of Jasnah, pretty much all the KRs knowledge about KRs come from their single spren.  So if that spren was inclined to mislead them... he/she could really mislead them.

[Kanrei]

Sanderson at last signing said that Ym wasnt Edgedancer, so that leave only Truthwatcher.

As his and Stump sprens look alike I think its safe to assume that Stump is Truthwatcher too.

 

[Massik]

On 11/27/2016 at 10:42 AM, Chull #445 said:

His spren did not look like Wyndle as far as I remember, so that would mark him a Truthwatcher. Then, since Truthwatchers and Edgedancers share a power, they might be a bit similar personality wise. But anyway, the fact that Wyndle and co chose Lift, makes me believe that the Truthwatcher-spren chose him. I dont know if the Edgedancer-spren would have sent two spren away. So I am now in the Ym as a Truthwatcher camp.

The only problem with this is that Stump, Ym and Renarin all might be Truthwatchers. However, we are not sure about Stump, and she might be a replacement for Ym. As for Renarin, there are some theories about wierd stuff going on with him and his spren, so he might not be a Truthwatcher either. 

Lift has spoken words.   Webdon't know if Ym had.  Syl looked like a windspren when Kal first notices her, but she evolves as she hangs with him.  

[Pagerunner]

50 minutes ago, Massik said:

Lift has spoken words.   Webdon't know if Ym had.  Syl looked like a windspren when Kal first notices her, but she evolves as she hangs with him.  

Ym used Progression, so he's developed to the point where he has take in Stormlight and channel it to a Surge. At that point, he must have either been an Edgedancer or a Truthwatcher, since they're the two Orders with that Surge. If he's not an Edgedancer, he must be a Truthwatcher.

I was in the Edgedancer camp, and very firmly so. But our ideas need to adapt to the text and to special revelation, and I don't see a way to reconcile Brandon's latest statement with Ym as an Edgedancer.

[Djarskublar]

So, does this mean my idea in the OP is confirmed, and Brandon was tight lipped about Ym's Order because he was a candidate for two Orders?

If so, can we call this an in text confirmation that you can have multiple Nahel bonds at once, it is just extremely unlikely?

[Massik]

I'm not sure that there wouldn't be more than one egedancer spren out there.  

Remember, Jasnah jas had a spren for a looong time.  It isn't necessarily a new thing for spren to be bonded.  But, what's more, the KR have Orders, which implies more than one of any type, no?

 

As for the appearance of Ym's spren.  Some spren are able to change appearance.  This is why I brought up Syl.  She's been leaves, a light ribbon and a woman. 

We don't have enough time with Ym to see if his spren may have changed, or any mention of his spren explaining the form it chose.   

Additionally, if Wyndle was to bond Ym, it means he has a certain draw.  Consider this.  With the way Kal is, would another spren have bonded him?  He is honorable.  Shallan's lies and truths drew a cryptid.  And Dalinar's charisma/need to unite drew 5he Stormfather.  Who they are decides the type of spren they attract, so if Wyndle was almost bonded to Ym, doesnt that mean Ym has the traits compatible with an edgedancer?

 

 

[Djarskublar]

1 hour ago, Massik said:

I'm not sure that there wouldn't be more than one egedancer spren out there.  

Remember, Jasnah jas had a spren for a looong time.  It isn't necessarily a new thing for spren to be bonded.  But, what's more, the KR have Orders, which implies more than one of any type, no?

 

As for the appearance of Ym's spren.  Some spren are able to change appearance.  This is why I brought up Syl.  She's been leaves, a light ribbon and a woman. 

We don't have enough time with Ym to see if his spren may have changed, or any mention of his spren explaining the form it chose.   

Additionally, if Wyndle was to bond Ym, it means he has a certain draw.  Consider this.  With the way Kal is, would another spren have bonded him?  He is honorable.  Shallan's lies and truths drew a cryptid.  And Dalinar's charisma/need to unite drew 5he Stormfather.  Who they are decides the type of spren they attract, so if Wyndle was almost bonded to Ym, doesnt that mean Ym has the traits compatible with an edgedancer?

 

 

We now have direct WoB that Ym was not an Edgedancer. That leaves only Truthwatcher.

I actually have no idea what you are trying to say with this post. It looks like a bunch of disconnected points to me.

Ym was a Truthwatcher, and he was considered for Edgedancer. Does this mean he could potentially have bonded both of them simultaneously?

[Massik]

What of he wasn't an technically an edgedancer because he only spoke the first ideal?

the points I made above are saying that specific spren go with a specific type of person.  Sort of like horeshoes go on horses and regular shoes go on people.  They're both shoes, but they only work with the hoof/foot they fit.  

Edited December 1, 2016 by Massik

[FeatherWriter]

On 11/29/2016 at 9:32 AM, Chull #445 said:

I think there are theories that says that Renarin is fooled to believe that he is becoming a Radiant, while in fact, he is affected by something else (Odium, I think). I do not know it very well myself, but if you look around a bit, you will probably find it.

 

On 11/29/2016 at 9:39 AM, emailanimal said:

Fair enough, although the one blurb about the order of Truthwatchers we do have seems to be consistent with what is going on with Renarin.  I myself have little doubt about it.

Hello, hi friends. Pretty sure the theory you're talking about is mine, Renarin's Visions and Truthwatching. There's a lot going on in that theory but the crux of it is that Renarin's visions aren't a normal expression of Truthwatching, and that there's something possibly sinister going on with them.

That said, I do believe that Renarin is probably actually a Truthwatcher. He has a spren, he healed his eyes with Stormlight, he hears screams when holding dead Shardblades. I just also thing there's more going on than just normal surgebinding when it comes to his visions.

As for the rest of this thread, it's funny, I immediately pegged both Ym and Stump for Truthwatcher, and thought it was confirmed by the text alone. I'm now trying to figure out why I did that, considering I don't remember Ym using anything other than Progression. I think. It was probably the appearance of his spren, who looked like refracted light rather than the vines and crystals we got from Wyndle. 

Now, the fact that neither Stump nor Ym displayed or mentioned any kind of compulsive vision behavior during highstorms or any kind of hypergraphia just kind of feeds into my "there's more going on with Renarin than just Truthwatching" theory. I feel like Stump's orphans, at least, would have seen and mentioned something if she were succumbing to visions like Renarin was. 

[kari-no-sugata]

Maybe Renarin is getting visions from Cultivation...? I don't think we can say for sure whether Renarin is a unique case or not yet (unless I'm missing something) though if all Truthwatchers get something similar during highstorms then it could explain why they're (apparently) particularly secretive. I can think of lots of different possibilities at least, due to the lack of solid information. 

Will Renarin continue to get visions during highstorms? Will being in Urithiru make any difference? Will he be similarly affected by the Everstorm passing over?