BlackYeti

Has Brandon Chaged the Canon? [Edgedancer Spoilers]

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If you remember from the original version of Words of Radiance, Kaladin rammed a Shardblade through Szeth’s chest, after which Nale found Szeth and healed him with a fabrial. However in Edgedancer Lift tries to heal a girl who had also had a Shardblade rammed through her chest, and it didn’t work. Wyndle then explains that since she was killed by Shardblade, she cannot be healed at all, unless she is healed right after it happened. Since Nale was obviously not with Szeth and Kaladin to heal him immediately, this appears to be a contradiction.

Therefore, either Nale has some way to remotely heal someone (of which we have no evidence), "right after" is being used very loosely, or when Brandon changed the scene to have Szeth fall to his death instead, he also changed the rules governing what can or can’t be healed.

If so, what other rules could have been changed at the same time? Is there some additional significance to the change in wording from fabrial to Surgebinding for instance? Moreover this would be a somewhat significant precedent that Brandon is setting, and I’m not sure what to make of it.

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I think it's safe to say that the stuff changed in the new WoR edition can no longer be considered canon, so that includes reviving Shardblade victims some time after death. But yeah, I also wish Lift could have resurrected that girl. It would have made that hug that Lift gave Nale in the end much more bearable to read for me. Storming Darkness...

Edited by skaa
Misread OP. Stupid skaa...
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In new version of WoR Szeth wasnt killed by Shardblade but wounded. He died from fall.
Wound from Shardblade can be healed with Stormlight after some time too -> Kaladin healing his arm.

In Edgedancer girl was killed by Shardblade (burned eyes etc).

So there are differences and Edgedancer do not contradict WoR.

Edited by Kanrei
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12 minutes ago, Kanrei said:

In new version of WoR Szeth wasnt killed by Shardblade but wounded. He died from fall.
Wound from Shardblade can be healed with Stormlight after some time too -> Kaladin healing his arm.

In Edgedancer girl was killed by Shardblade (burned eyes etc).

So there are differences and Edgedancer do not contradict WoR.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that it contradicts the new version, it obviously doesn't as you pointed out.

What I'm saying is that it contradicts the rules that were given in the old version, and thus Brandon didn't just change what happened in the book but the underlying mechanics as well. He's previously said that he would write future books such that they would work with either version, but this doesn't seem to be the case any more.

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3 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that it contradicts the new version, it obviously doesn't as you pointed out.

What I'm saying is that it contradicts the rules that were given in the old version, and thus Brandon didn't just change what happened in the book but the underlying mechanics as well. He's previously said that he would write future books such that they would work with either version, but this doesn't seem to be the case any more.

Ok. Hmmm.

For rules to work with either version, Nale would need to be very close to Szeth and Kaladin's fight, pick up body asap and use fabrial.
or
Fabrial is more effective? We dont know what power level is replicated with fabrial - is it similar to power of Radiant with 2 Oaths? or one with all 5 Oaths?

There is possibility that if Lift said more Oaths is she could save girl.
I dont have book with me atm, but my assumption was that it was both matter of how much time passed and how much power Lift could use and Wyndle pointed I think to both - too much time passed, and not enough power.

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8 hours ago, Kanrei said:

There is possibility that if Lift said more Oaths is she could save girl.

Wyndle certainly implies so.

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Interesting. Perhaps the huge amount of Investiture that has passed through Szeth's body over the years gave his dead self a longer time limit in the Cognitive Realm, just like a certain character we know from another series.

Or... maybe the girl could have been saved if her body also fell a hundred feet from the ground whilst being pummeled by a highstorm. ;)

Edited by skaa
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Thanks for the clarification @PeterAhlstrom, that does make me feel better about this.

As for what the differences are I think @skaa, you might have hit the nail on the head. Maybe it also helped that Szeth was Invested when it happened.

The only other difference that I can think of is that the girl was impaled with an Honourblade rather than a regular Shardblade.

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I think it was the fabrial used to heal Szeth that was different. Lift had only said 2 oaths at that point so maybe the she hadn't "advanced" enough to heal the girl. Maybe now that she's said 3 oaths she could use her powers better.

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I think it also has to do with the fact that Kaladin killed Szeth with a living sprenbade, while Nale killed the girl with his honorblade (which I thought would work like a dead shardblade)

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5 hours ago, Dirigible said:

I think it also has to do with the fact that Kaladin killed Szeth with a living sprenbade, while Nale killed the girl with his honorblade (which I thought would work like a dead shardblade)

Ah, you are, unfortunately, incorrect here. Brandon, in a polarizing move, decided to change the ending of Words of Radiance a little bit and have Kaladin not kill Szeth with Jezrien's Honorblade, but to instead let him get killed by the storm itself. There is a blog entry on his site where you can read the new (and now officially canon) ending, as well as his reasons behind the change.

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13 hours ago, Argent said:

Ah, you are, unfortunately, incorrect here. Brandon, in a polarizing move, decided to change the ending of Words of Radiance a little bit and have Kaladin not kill Szeth with Jezrien's Honorblade, but to instead let him get killed by the storm itself. There is a blog entry on his site where you can read the new (and now officially canon) ending, as well as his reasons behind the change.

Yes I know; I was referring to the fact that Peter said the old way was still canonical--and Sanderson specifically mentioned in that blog post that the cut section had importance relating to the difference between living and dead shardblades:

Quote

I’m sad to lose this sequence, as it’s an important plot point for the series that dead Shardblades cannot heal the soul, while living ones can.

So I thought that might explain some of the differences to the two situations.

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23 minutes ago, Dirigible said:

Yes I know; I was referring to the fact that Peter said the old way was still canonical--and Sanderson specifically mentioned in that blog post that the cut section had importance relating to the difference between living and dead shardblades:

So I thought that might explain some of the differences to the two situations.

I think he's clarified that quote later as noting that he meant that having a living Shardblade would allow you to heal Spiritual wounds to yourself, while having a dead Shardblade (or presumably Honorblade, except perhaps one granting Regrowth) would not.  It doesn't have anything to do with the blade used to wound you, but the one you yourself have while trying to heal a wound you've received.

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45 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

I think he's clarified that quote later as noting that he meant that having a living Shardblade would allow you to heal Spiritual wounds to yourself, while having a dead Shardblade (or presumably Honorblade, except perhaps one granting Regrowth) would not.  It doesn't have anything to do with the blade used to wound you, but the one you yourself have while trying to heal a wound you've received.

Do you have a link to this WoB? It doesn't make sense to me in the context of the change, as Szeth was the person who died during the conflict, and he had no bond to a living Shardblade at the time he was healed, and Nale used some sort of fabrial to heal him iirc. So I don't know how changing the original version to the new one would prevent the reveal of that plot point.

The full paragraph that I quoted earlier is below:

Quote

The question this raises is about Szeth being stabbed by a Shardblade, then being resuscitated. I’m sad to lose this sequence, as it’s an important plot point for the series that dead Shardblades cannot heal the soul, while living ones can. I’m going to have to work this into a later book, though I think it’s something we can sacrifice here for the stronger scene of character for Kaladin and Szeth.

Edit:

Oh, I get it...because in the original version, Szeth was bonded to the Honorblade and that couldn't heal the spine wound...I'm an idiot, that makes sense.

Edited by Dirigible
Remembered
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I have some Mistborn: Secret History spoilers here that I think are relevant.

So we know that your soul sticks around in the Cognitive Realm for a while, and Preservation even states in SH that Allomancers and Feruchemists stick around longer because of their use of investiture. Meanwhile commoners are shown to move on almost immediately.

Upon reading Wyndle's explanation, my first thought was that it was a bit of an Easter Egg, relating to this. A common girl would move on immediately, Szeth would stick around awhile because of his heavy magic usage.

I just went back and read the Edgedancer passage again and I don't quite get the same implication this time, but I think it might be relevant.

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Now, @PeterAhlstrom very clearly told us that the canonical mechanics of reviving someone killed by a Shardblade have not been changed by the revision to the ending of WoR, but let's just say that he never popped in to tell us that.

I still don't see any contradiction. A Herald, who is thousands of years old and full of the knowledge of the ages, shows up with a specially made fabrial and revives a man killed by a Shardblade... Compare that to a 13-year-old child (who thinks she's still 10), who doesn't have enough Stormlight to revive her subject, regardless, and just learned how to heal others, anyway.

Yes, Wyndle said that it had been too long, but is Wyndle remembering things properly? He's better off than any other newly bonded spren, but he still has some memory loss. And how does the fabrial that Nalan used affect the process? Also, how much time passed between Szeth dying and Nalan healing him (in either version of the story)? And how much time passed between Nalan killing the girl and Lift attempting to heal her? Is there a difference between how much time you have to heal a subject who has wielded an Honorblade for years and how much time you have when your subject is a preteen petty thief? 

There are more than enough vagaries there to conclude that the story probably works just fine. But also, Peter told us that it does. 

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On 11/22/2016 at 2:34 PM, skaa said:

Interesting. Perhaps the huge amount of Investiture that has passed through Szeth's body over the years has given his dead self a longer time limit in the Cognitive Realm, just like a certain character we know from another series 

I like that thought. Seems likely.

 

On 11/22/2016 at 2:34 PM, skaa said:

Or... maybe the girl could have been saved if her body also fell a hundred feet from the ground whilst being pummeled by a highstorm. ;)

This is clearly MUCH more plausible though :P 

 

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On 11/22/2016 at 7:20 PM, Argent said:

Wyndle certainly implies so.

We're not told that it is so. We're told that Wyndle believes that it is so. That's a big difference.

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I'm fairly certain it has to do with timing. I don't have access to excerpts from either story at the moment, but If i remember correctly the amount of time that has passed was mentioned in each circumstance.

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@Matrim "“Too much time passed for this one, mistress,” Wyndle said softly. “I’m sorry.”
“Gawx was longer.”
“Gawx wasn’t slain by a Shardblade,” Wyndle said. “I … I think that humans don’t die instantly, most of the time. Oh, my memory. Too many holes, mistress. But I do know that a Shardblade, it is different. Maybe if you’d reached this one right after. Yes, you’d have been able to then. It was just too long. And you don’t have enough power, either way.”"

I guess difference is that Shardblade severe soul connection to body.
And for ability to revive one killed by Shardblade combination of both, time passed and power used matter. Probably more time pass - more power you need to use.
Looks that even if Lift reached girl asap she wouldnt be able to help her because of not enough power.

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12 hours ago, Kanrei said:

@Matrim "“Too much time passed for this one, mistress,” Wyndle said softly. “I’m sorry.”
“Gawx was longer.”
“Gawx wasn’t slain by a Shardblade,” Wyndle said. “I … I think that humans don’t die instantly, most of the time. Oh, my memory. Too many holes, mistress. But I do know that a Shardblade, it is different. Maybe if you’d reached this one right after. Yes, you’d have been able to then. It was just too long. And you don’t have enough power, either way.”"

I guess difference is that Shardblade severe soul connection to body.
And for ability to revive one killed by Shardblade combination of both, time passed and power used matter. Probably more time pass - more power you need to use.
Looks that even if Lift reached girl asap she wouldnt be able to help her because of not enough power.

Aye, thanks Kanrei.

Here is the excerpt from WoR:

“I waited until you crashed to the ground,” the man said, “until you were broken and mangled, your soul cut through, dead for certain. Then, I restored you.”

“Impossible.”

“Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right fabrial. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late.”

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On 22/11/2016 at 8:50 PM, BlackYeti said:

Thanks for the clarification @PeterAhlstrom, that does make me feel better about this.

As for what the differences are I think @skaa, you might have hit the nail on the head. Maybe it also helped that Szeth was Invested when it happened.

The only other difference that I can think of is that the girl was impaled with an Honourblade rather than a regular Shardblade.

In the middle of a High Storm, so effectively infinite amounts of Stormlight are available. Verses Lift being very short.

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Probably a mistborn:secret history thing

Spoiler

Kelsier stayed longer in the cognitive realm, and could thus return via spike.  In contrast, others stayed in the cognitive realm fleetingly before going to the other place.

 

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On 11/24/2016 at 2:10 AM, Argent said:

Ah, you are, unfortunately, incorrect here. Brandon, in a polarizing move, decided to change the ending of Words of Radiance a little bit and have Kaladin not kill Szeth with Jezrien's Honorblade, but to instead let him get killed by the storm itself. There is a blog entry on his site where you can read the new (and now officially canon) ending, as well as his reasons behind the change.

I didn't know that. If I bought WoR in mass market paperback in October '16, would it have the new ending in it?

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