20161121 - EotFP - JBM Ch1

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Hello again,

Here's the first chapter of Jet Black Medium.

Any advice or comments are welcome, but in particular I'd like to hear what you think of the dialogue/flirting. This is something I really struggle with, and I'll want to rewrite this several dozen times, so any feedback will make that go smoother.

Did I move over anything too quickly?
In the previous version, there were comments that I used some unfamiliar terms without explaining them (quaestor, lictor, ...). This time, I tried to insert a general idea of what they do into the text without actually spelling it out. Is this sufficient explanation for you, or do you still feel the need to grab a dictionary?

Eagerly awaiting your comments,

 

Eagle.

[aeromancer]

Thoughts as I go: The sentences are very choppy, so-to-speak. They all work, I’m just not getting a smooth transition sense, which I would like for the exposition at the beginning.

The wheelbarrow scene gave me the sense that either L is paranoid, or crimes are frequent.

Notes: So, a Quaestor is a law keeper of such? I’m getting a very vague sense. Also there’s magic in the form of Atramancy, which is quasi-legal. This is kind of vague, and while I get a sense of L’s character (somewhat), I’m not getting a good world building sense. The dialogue seems fine though some of the dialogue seems to run-on with the narration.

[Mandamon]

Since I've reviewed the first version, I'll focus on what you specifically asked about.

I think the unfamiliar terms are better this time. I didn't have a problem with them, though whether that's because I read this before, I can't say.

Notes while reading:

Celsior and Celsitudum are sort of confusing

pg 3: "Got a description, ma’am. It was fairly accurate; though it neglected to mention how pretty you are."
--still makes my skin crawl.

pg 4: Cedrinalia.  With this and the first two C-words, now I'm really confused.

pg 4: "Just then, a porter pulling a heavy-laden barrow "
--for this to be effective, the threat needs to come right after she gets pushed against the wall, not a paragraph later.

pg 5: "Not that I ever complain about holding hands with a pretty lady"
--yeah, there are better ways to say this.  Could just leave off "with a pretty lady" and the point will probably come across.

pg 5: “I just didn’t think you’d be superstitious. It’s rather cute, actually.”
-nope. Also, Laurea hasn't made any response to any of the overt things he's said so far, so it comes across as him being creepy and pushy. If she accepted his flirting
(for lack of better word) and encouraged him, that would be another thing.

pg 6: "He flashed another of those dazzling smiles, “also, because you like me.”
--unless he's telepathic, she's given no sign of that.

The banter at very the end is much better. Putting that sort of thing earlier will at least let us know Laurea is hearing him and either encouraging him or not. I think Janus still comes across as a creep, but you can put Laurea in charge of the situation by responding or cutting off his advances rather than let him just keep making them with no response.

[rdpulfer]

- In the first page, it feels like there's too much info-dumping and not enough description. I think you want to hook the reader with an image of the world before going into Laurea's thoughts.

- I do like the interaction between Janus and Laurea for the most part.

- I agree there's better phrasing for "Not that I ever complain about holding hands with a pretty lady". It seems way too informal for someone to say to someone he just meant.

- I also like Janus' reaction to her last line. It's a very breezy selection, but I think it works. 

[kais]

I just made pie, so my comments may be more sugar-filled than normal.

Overall

After the first page got through, the pacing was fine as was the description. What did not work for me at all was the dialogue between the two characters. Janus comes off incredibly predatory and Laurea.... likes it? She's terrified one minute, being not-so-willingly led the next, and then flirts at the end. Very contradictory, and triggery. I think you could clean it up easily with just some minor dialogue changes though. The structure of the narrative itself is engaging.

Reading through previous comments
I see @Mandamon picked up on similar things. 

Your direct questions
The new terms were worked in very well to the narrative, and I had no issues determining what they were. I don't think anything went too quickly, although a few transitional sentences here and there would help. I did not care for the flirting, although I think to fix it would be a very minor rewrite. It's not the scenes and actions that are troublesome, it's the dialogue and reactions.

As I go

- the first paragraph, and even the first page, is a little info-dumpy. 

- Oh wait, is this the first chapter to a book? If so, you need a lot more tension in your first line and your first page. I agree with @rdpulfer here. Thoughts and descriptions are for a little later. Hook us immediately.

- I would start your chapter here, and add a little more kick to the sentence: The Suscepta drew up to the spire’s docks shortly before noon

- page three: young law keeper is a creeper

- Why would she blush? More internal monologue needed. Does she think he's cute? Does she like his uniform? Women don't just blush when random men given them compliments. Has to be some mutual something going on.

- page four: Out of nowhere, Janus pushed her aside and pinned her ... Woah WOAH. You've already established him as a creeper, and her reaction is of him being a creeper, and now he pins her to a wall? Pushing her to the side, or pinning and apologizing and saying 'porter!' would have been much better. If I had picked this book up at a bookstore this would be be the point at which I put it back on the shelf.

- end of page four: Janus just grabs her hand? After being pinned to a wall and the like I'd be out of there. 

- page five: pretty lady reference.... Let's have a discussion. Are you trying to set Janus up as a sexual predator? That's how he is coming across. If YES, then solid writing job. You might want to give the readers a little bit more warning before launching into that, although its effective the way it is. If NO...edits and reactions need to be changed drastically.

- page five: and he called her cute. Nope.

- page six: he says she likes him, and she has given no indication of this. Yup. Sexual predator.

 

[Vreeah]

Hihi, Eagle!

Oooh, flirting. That's always fun, makes me want to skip right over to that. But nah, best to read the whole thing.

Pacing at the beginning was fine. I know where she's going, what she thinks of her peers, and her current motivation.

Sounds like our main viewpoint character's first major trait is confidence.

Uh... hm. This lictor is rather forward, among other things. I don't think these two characters are very good at communicating.

During the bit with the barrows, the tension it generated seemed forced, and the character reactions felt off. Why didn't Laurea hear something so dangerously fast and solid beforehand? There was a crowd at the top of the stairs, you'd think someone up there would be shouting something. Why did Janus smile after being punched in the gut by someone that likely looked distressed? Why did Laurea immediately resort to a punch before questioning the situation? Why did Janus not say any variation of "Watch out!" before the event, or a variation of "Hold on, there's danger." during the event?

I think there are too many ways for the moment of misunderstanding to be completely avoided. Because of that, the misunderstanding didn't work for me.

Yeah, Janus is incredibly forward. It'd be nice to have some kind of warning before being pulled through a rough crowd. Also, again, remarking about the appearance of who you got to hold hands with is not appropriate in this context.

The last part of their interaction is largely improper, and I'm surprised by how mellow Laurea's reactions are.

Dialogue isn't working for me. Too aggressive and candid from Janus. Too tolerant and unusually approving from Laurea. Overall, a hostile interaction between strangers that ended more pleasantly than it should have

Edited November 22, 2016 by Vreeah

[TKWade]

Things I'm interested in after reading it. The work structure at the spires and how Laurea is going evolve and move up through them. I say this, but I say it without a real good sense of WHO she is. I understand that she's not just a hardworked but a smart worker as well. That's it thought.

I'm intrigued to find out what an Atramancer is.

Other than those two things it feel pretty flat. As mentioned, for a chapter 1, I think you need a much stronger hook. I would have put this back probably because it just didn't grab me. I read the first paragraph and just didn't have a reason to keep reading. I didn't feel engaged at all.

In the first bit I get the sense that Laurea is going to be this strong, independent, free thinking style woman, but then dialog hits and it's like she's a completely different person than described. I don't feel like she has her own voice.

You have intriguing elements, keep at it. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by TKWade

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

On 11/21/2016 at 9:22 PM, aeromancer said:

Thoughts as I go: The sentences are very choppy, so-to-speak. They all work, I’m just not getting a smooth transition sense, which I would like for the exposition at the beginning.

The wheelbarrow scene gave me the sense that either L is paranoid, or crimes are frequent.

Notes: So, a Quaestor is a law keeper of such? I’m getting a very vague sense. Also there’s magic in the form of Atramancy, which is quasi-legal. This is kind of vague, and while I get a sense of L’s character (somewhat), I’m not getting a good world building sense. The dialogue seems fine though some of the dialogue seems to run-on with the narration.

Quaestors are indeed lawkeepers, specifically the investigative side of things; the beat-cop aspect is fulfilled by the lictors.
Atramancy is fully legal, Laurea was going to arrest Janus for impersonating a cop.

For your other comments, I don't have a response right now, but they are going on the things-to-watch-out-for list.

Thanks for the feedback.

* * *

I sorted your comments by theme, Mandamon.

On 11/21/2016 at 9:32 PM, Mandamon said:

Celsior and Celsitudum are sort of confusing

pg 4: Cedrinalia.  With this and the first two C-words, now I'm really confused.

I'll get rid of Celsitudum, that's one name that I'm not particularly attached to. Maybe I can figure something out for Cedrinalia as well, but I'm not completely convinced I'll need to.

On 11/21/2016 at 9:32 PM, Mandamon said:

pg 4: "Just then, a porter pulling a heavy-laden barrow "
--for this to be effective, the threat needs to come right after she gets pushed against the wall, not a paragraph later.

For it to be effective as what? I think you might have gotten something else out of the scene than I wanted to put in.

On 11/21/2016 at 9:32 PM, Mandamon said:

The banter at very the end is much better. Putting that sort of thing earlier will at least let us know Laurea is hearing him and either encouraging him or not. I think Janus still comes across as a creep, but you can put Laurea in charge of the situation by responding or cutting off his advances rather than let him just keep making them with no response.

Good points on the flirting, especially the suggestion to have Laurea respond more, this is exactly the sort of thing I need to improve my writing.

Thanks for the feedback, Mandamon.

* * *

On 11/22/2016 at 2:54 AM, rdpulfer said:

- In the first page, it feels like there's too much info-dumping and not enough description. I think you want to hook the reader with an image of the world before going into Laurea's thoughts.

I'll probably be shunting another chapter in front of this one, so it might be less important, but I'll try this out.

On 11/22/2016 at 2:54 AM, rdpulfer said:

- I do like the interaction between Janus and Laurea for the most part.

You're in a definite minority there, I'm sorry to say. 

Thanks for your feedback, rdpulfer.

* * *

On 11/22/2016 at 9:27 PM, kaisa said:

- the first paragraph, and even the first page, is a little info-dumpy. 

- Oh wait, is this the first chapter to a book? If so, you need a lot more tension in your first line and your first page. I agree with @rdpulfer here. Thoughts and descriptions are for a little later. Hook us immediately.

- I would start your chapter here, and add a little more kick to the sentence: The Suscepta drew up to the spire’s docks shortly before noon

For the interest of 'kick', I'm thinking about moving chapter 2 up to chapter 1 (it's a different POV character, so I can do that without messing up the timeline), stay tuned to see if that works out.

On 11/22/2016 at 9:27 PM, kaisa said:

- page three: young law keeper is a creeper

- Why would she blush? More internal monologue needed. Does she think he's cute? Does she like his uniform? Women don't just blush when random men given them compliments. Has to be some mutual something going on.

- page four: Out of nowhere, Janus pushed her aside and pinned her ... Woah WOAH. You've already established him as a creeper, and her reaction is of him being a creeper, and now he pins her to a wall? Pushing her to the side, or pinning and apologizing and saying 'porter!' would have been much better. If I had picked this book up at a bookstore this would be be the point at which I put it back on the shelf.

- end of page four: Janus just grabs her hand? After being pinned to a wall and the like I'd be out of there. 

- page five: pretty lady reference.... Let's have a discussion. Are you trying to set Janus up as a sexual predator? That's how he is coming across. If YES, then solid writing job. You might want to give the readers a little bit more warning before launching into that, although its effective the way it is. If NO...edits and reactions need to be changed drastically.

- page five: and he called her cute. Nope.

- page six: he says she likes him, and she has given no indication of this. Yup. Sexual predator.

I'll most certainly keep this in mind for the next version (and for more than just fear of you hunting me down, even if I didn't fridge anyone  ), I need Janus to be a player, not a creep, and it looks like I've got my work cut out for me to get him there. Maybe it's better if I just cut the wheelbarrow thing out entirely?

Thanks for the feedback, Kaisa, it's always spot-on. I hope the pie was good.

* * *

On 11/22/2016 at 11:51 PM, Vreeah said:

Pacing at the beginning was fine. I know where she's going, what she thinks of her peers, and her current motivation.

Thanks! It's not too navel-gazey, then?

On 11/22/2016 at 11:51 PM, Vreeah said:

Sounds like our main viewpoint character's first major trait is confidence.

In a big way, yes.

On 11/22/2016 at 11:51 PM, Vreeah said:

Uh... hm. This lictor is rather forward, among other things. I don't think these two characters are very good at communicating.

That's a problem, well half a problem: she's supposed to be bad at it, but he shouldn't be.

 

On 11/22/2016 at 11:51 PM, Vreeah said:

During the bit with the barrows, the tension it generated seemed forced, and the character reactions felt off. Why didn't Laurea hear something so dangerously fast and solid beforehand? There was a crowd at the top of the stairs, you'd think someone up there would be shouting something. Why did Janus smile after being punched in the gut by someone that likely looked distressed? Why did Laurea immediately resort to a punch before questioning the situation? Why did Janus not say any variation of "Watch out!" before the event, or a variation of "Hold on, there's danger." during the event?

I think there are too many ways for the moment of misunderstanding to be completely avoided. Because of that, the misunderstanding didn't work for me.

I could tell you plausible reasons for each of those things, but since I wouldn't be able to work them into the story, there's no point. I'll just cut the scene, it didn't really add much to the overall story anyway.

 

On 11/22/2016 at 11:51 PM, Vreeah said:

Yeah, Janus is incredibly forward. It'd be nice to have some kind of warning before being pulled through a rough crowd. Also, again, remarking about the appearance of who you got to hold hands with is not appropriate in this context.

The last part of their interaction is largely improper, and I'm surprised by how mellow Laurea's reactions are.

Dialogue isn't working for me. Too aggressive and candid from Janus. Too tolerant and unusually approving from Laurea. Overall, a hostile interaction between strangers that ended more pleasantly than it should have

I'll try to fix it, but it's going to take a lot of work.

Thanks for the feedback, Vreeah.

* * *

On 11/25/2016 at 8:42 PM, TKWade said:

Other than those two things it feel pretty flat. As mentioned, for a chapter 1, I think you need a much stronger hook. I would have put this back probably because it just didn't grab me. I read the first paragraph and just didn't have a reason to keep reading. I didn't feel engaged at all.

I hear you, and I've got a possible solution in the works.

On 11/25/2016 at 8:42 PM, TKWade said:

In the first bit I get the sense that Laurea is going to be this strong, independent, free thinking style woman, but then dialog hits and it's like she's a completely different person than described. I don't feel like she has her own voice.

The first bit is what she's supposed to be, but also pretty bad at social interaction. I've apparently not got a good enough handle yet on how to get that on paper.

On 11/25/2016 at 8:42 PM, TKWade said:

You have intriguing elements, keep at it. 

Thanks TKWade, I will. Thank you for the feedback.

[Robinski]

More comments, I hope they are useful.

• I think the opening scene reads better than last time, I feel like the language is tighter and the character comes over better, more sympathetic. I also like that she has a clear goal in life. The aside about her sister is interesting, I find myself wondering what career path she took.

• No need for a scene break, your narrative basically continues on. I can’t see a break, just a change of pace.

• “excepting the captain” – the captain would never be the first off a ship, he has a responsibility to passengers, crew, owners – everybody. All that nonsense in Star Trek about the captain going on landing parties? Poppycock, and poor strategy. “while the captain was still handing over his passenger and cargo documents to a dock master” – he’s got to have a first officer or purser or some such to deal with this, surely.

• One or two more layout issues and typos, but I thought this read much smoother and was more satisfying in itself than the earlier version that I read. I think this is a good step up. I’m getting a sense of character for Laurea and I think Janus is easier to take, brashness turned down to a more reasonable level.

I like what you’ve done with the edit, good job. I’m looking forward to reading more.

<R>

p.s. – Flirting: better than before. Have you read it out loud? That’s a useful exercise. I don’t think it would hurt to continue to refine it, but not at the expense of finishing your story in draft.

I will add that, while I was okay with the flirting, it is laid on pretty thick, and would get tiresome over time, I think, and it does nothing to endear Janus to the reader. From my pov, he's less annoying than first time, but not likeable. I was okay with the following line, Janus is just flying a kite, if he's wrong he loses nothing.

On 21/11/2016 at 8:32 PM, Mandamon said:

pg 6: "He flashed another of those dazzling smiles, “also, because you like me.”
--unless he's telepathic, she's given no sign of that.

 I do agree with @kaisa that the problems with the flirting are more around Laurea's uneven reactions.