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29 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

With the confirmed elim, everyone else could move and once it’s clear one person in the game hasn’t moved then they’re confirmed evil. I don’t really see a downside to moving docs.

But how would they know that the elim didn’t move? There wouldn’t be a list of who’s in what doc in the writeup.

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13 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

But how would they know that the elim didn’t move? There wouldn’t be a list of who’s in what doc in the writeup.

“So there’s a confirmed Elim stuck on Sel. Everyone on Sel move to Roshar. Whoever doesn’t show up on Roshar dies.” 

Or something like that. Even if it’s not explicitly like that, or the rules don’t explicitly force Elims to stay in place, rules that favor Elims and Villagers differently can be exploited. No in-thread communications prevent mass mayoring, but the general rule is if there’s a way for Elims to be found mechanically, the players will take utmost advantage of it.

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13 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

“So there’s a confirmed Elim stuck on Sel. Everyone on Sel move to Roshar. Whoever doesn’t show up on Roshar dies.” 

Or something like that. Even if it’s not explicitly like that, or the rules don’t explicitly force Elims to stay in place, rules that favor Elims and Villagers differently can be exploited. No in-thread communications prevent mass mayoring, but the general rule is if there’s a way for Elims to be found mechanically, the players will take utmost advantage of it.

Oh, that makes sense. That probably isn’t the best idea, then.

Spoiler

But if it was a secret rule...

 

Edited by Szeth_Pancakes
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6 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

Oh, that makes sense. That probably isn’t the best idea, then.

  Reveal hidden contents

But if it was a secret rule...

 

Spoiler

Don’t crowd-source secret rules :P

(RoW, same thing as last time)

Spoiler

Well, Thaidakar’s whole thing is he wants to learn how to get off of his planet... he’d also be pretty hard to kill, so could make him public + immune to most kills.

 

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Was gonna say the setup reminds me of the shard games. Others already pointed this out. There are parallels, what with there being planet docs and players getting abilities based on what planet they're on and stuff.

 

But you know, the more I think about it, the more it reminds me of another game from long ago: QF21. Actually this was the first game I ever played as an eliminator :) Didn't end up winning that one, alas :P

Basically, the premise of the game was that game-related discussion was banned from the thread. Everything had to be done in one-on-one PMs.

Except, you couldn't just make PMs at-will. You were put in contact with 2 random other players at the start of the game. IIRC, the only ways to gain additional contacts was from the intervention of a special role, or if one of your contacts died you would inherit one of your dead contact's contacts. So it kinda resulted in this really tangled web of PMs where game discussion could happen, but a lot of the stuff you would hear would be second or thirdhand.

It worked surprisingly well, all things considered.

I think the setup you have in mind could also work surprisingly well.

 

There is a possibly pertinent difference between your setup and QF21, though. In your planets setup, if you wanted to get a message out to somebody on a different planet, you would have to wait at least one cycle for people to move between planets, and potentially another cycle to receive their reply. In QF21, it was theoretically possible to have something you say reach any other player without having to wait a cycle, if enough people were interested in relaying it. You might have needed to go through several intermediaries, but everyone was reachable, and so the game discussion was still at least sorta unified.

Idk hopefully this anecdote is at least somewhat relevant and/or helpful.

Like you said, a possible spin on the "planets" setup is that people are given a fairly limited ability to use PMs. So a small amount of communication between planets is possible, but the quality of communication between people who are on the same planet is vastly better. I can think of maybe a few meaningfully distinct ways to do that:

  • Everyone starts the game with 1 or 2 PMs with other players.
    • This is maybe boring, but it ensures that connections are spread evenly and that they exist from D1.
  • There is a role/item that confers the ability to start PMs.
    • Possibly flavored as seons.
  • Anyone can start PMs, but only with people who are currently on the same planet, and it costs an action.
    • Possibly flavored as creating a pair of spanreeds and giving one half to another player.
      • In which case, this might be the ability players get when they visit Roshar, instead of a thing you can do everywhere.
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I thought I'd share the first draft of my ruleset here :)

Constructive criticism would be very much appreciated.

Spoiler

MR## - 17th Shard v. Ghostbloods

 

Premise

The Seventeenth Shard is under attack from those dastardly Ghostbloods! They have infiltrated your organization, and are trying to take control of it by wreaking havoc and killing your members! You must stop them (and capture Hoid) before it’s too late!

 

Basics

  • Each cycle is 48 hours long, with a combined Day and Night.

  • Each cycle, a player is voted out of the game. If no player gets more than two votes, no one is removed. If two or more players each have the same number of votes, (two or more) all tied players are removed.

  • There will be a certain number of shared docs, which correspond to different planets in the cosmere (one for every four players who join). Each player will be assigned one of them at the beginning of the game. At any one time, each player has viewing and edit access to one and only one of these docs. See Worlds And Worldhopping.

  • Each cycle, players can worldhop. This involves gaining access to a doc of your choosing, and losing access to your old doc.

  • After the game has started, players may not make posts in the game thread other than to vote, to retract their vote, or to participate in Out-Of-Game Discussion. Using this to send coded messages is strictly forbidden.

  • PMs are not open, unless you have a Seon Box (See Items).

  • You may take one action each cycle, not including worldhopping.

  • When a player is removed, their items are randomly split up between the players on the same planet as them.

  • When a player is killed, all of their items go to the killer.

 

Factions

  • Seventeenth Shard: You win if there are no Ghostbloods remaining.

  • Ghostbloods: Each cycle, one of you can submit an action to kill one player who is on the same planet as you. You win if you reach parity with the rest of the players.

  • Hoid: If either the Ghostbloods or the Seventeenth Shard reaches their wincon and you’re still alive, then you win. Note that this does not count as a win for either of the other two factions.

 

 

Roles

Each player can have up to three roles, and only one role from each category.

 

Faction-Specific Roles:

 

  • Hoid: If you are on a planet, you may gain the Investiture Role associated with that planet. On Roshar, you can obtain Lightweaving. On Scadrial, you can obtain Soothing. On Nalthis, you can obtain Awakening. First of the Sun and Threnody (if used) have no associated roles. These roles will not show up on scans.

  • Thaidakar: You love being at the top, so you couldn’t stand to impersonate anyone but one of the most noteworthy members of the Seventeenth Shard. Your vote counts twice.

  • Demoux: As a former Church of the Survivor member, you know all about Thaidakar. Once per cycle, you can scan one player, and you will get a result that tells you if that player is Thaidakar or not. As one of the more influential members of the Seventeenth Shard, your vote counts twice.

 

Investiture Roles:

 

  • Lightweaver:  Once per cycle, you can disguise yourself to look like a different role and alignment than you actually are. You have two Lightweavings worth of Stormlight to use during the course of the game, and you can refill your Stormlight for one action while on Roshar.

  • Soother: Physical Allomancy is nice, but as a high-ranking member of the Seventeenth Shard (or the Ghostbloods), emotional Allomancy is far more useful. Once per cycle, you can burn brass to cancel out one vote from a person on the same planet as you. You have two Soothings worth of brass to use over the course of the game, and you can refill your brass stores for one action while on Scadrial.

  • Awakener: Once per cycle, you can Awaken an object and send it to kill another player on the same planet as you. You aren’t likely to get your Breath back after you use it, so you can only do this once per game.

 

Other Roles:

 

  • Records Keeper: You have access to all of the records of each of the Seventeenth Shard members. Once per cycle, you can look into another player on the same planet as you to see any and all of their non-faction-specific roles. 

  • Investigator: You have the skills needed to dive into each members’ pasts, and figure out if something seems to be off. Once during the game, you can look into another player on the same planet as you to learn their alignment and faction-specific roles.

  • Records Writer: Each cycle, you can send a message to HQ to be put in the write-up. This does not cost an action.

 

Worlds and Worldhopping

 

At the start of the game, each player is assigned one of the following world docs, which they can access and edit. Once per cycle, they can then transfer to another doc of their choosing. This does not cost an action. There is no Sel doc because of the dangerous conditions in Sel’s Cognitive Realm.

  • Roshar: While on Roshar, you can instantly start a PM with anyone else on Roshar once per cycle by using a pair of Spanreeds. This PM can be accessed for the rest of the game, even if you leave Roshar.

  • Scadrial: While on Scadrial, you can get a Device (the latest technology) that tells you if you’ve been targeted by the Records Keeper, the Investigator, or Demoux. However, this costs you one action, and the device will stop working after one cycle.

  • Nalthis: While on Nalthis, you have a 20 percent chance of Returning if you are executed or otherwise killed. However, if you have Returned once, you cannot do it again.

  • First of the Sun: First of the Sun is only used if there are 14 or more players. While there, you can bond with an Aviar (for one action) that will protect you from any causes of death except for the execution. This is only available once per game.

  • Threnody: Threnody is only used if there are 18 or more players. While there, you can send a short (100 words or less) message to the dead/spec doc. This does not cost an action.

 

Items

 

  • Spanreeds: See Roshar.

  • Device: See Scadrial.

  • Aviar: Aviars are only available if there are 14 or more players. See First of the Sun.

  • Seon Box: If you have a Seon Box, you may instantly start a PM with one player of your choice for an action. This PM will last until the end of the game.

  • Connection Medallion: When taking an action targeting someone, you can use the Connection Medallion to target someone on a different planet. 

 

Order of Actions

 

  1. Records Writer

  2. Lightweaving

  3. Aviar

  4. Demoux/Thaidakar Vote Manipulation

  5. Execution

  6. Returning from Execution

  7. Awakening

  8. Returning from Awakening kill

  9. Records Keeper/Investigator/Demoux

  10. Device

 

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7 hours ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

I thought I'd share the first draft of my ruleset here :)

Constructive criticism would be very much appreciated.

  Hide contents

 

MR## - 17th Shard v. Ghostbloods

 

Premise

The Seventeenth Shard is under attack from those dastardly Ghostbloods! They have infiltrated your organization, and are trying to take control of it by wreaking havoc and killing your members! You must stop them (and capture Hoid) before it’s too late!

 

Basics

  • Each cycle is 48 hours long, with a combined Day and Night.

  • Each cycle, a player is voted out of the game. If no player gets more than two votes, no one is removed. If two or more players each have the same number of votes, (two or more) all tied players are removed.

  • There will be a certain number of shared docs, which correspond to different planets in the cosmere (one for every four players who join). Each player will be assigned one of them at the beginning of the game. At any one time, each player has viewing and edit access to one and only one of these docs. See Worlds And Worldhopping.

  • Each cycle, players can worldhop. This involves gaining access to a doc of your choosing, and losing access to your old doc.

  • After the game has started, players may not make posts in the game thread other than to vote, to retract their vote, or to participate in Out-Of-Game Discussion. Using this to send coded messages is strictly forbidden.

  • PMs are not open, unless you have a Seon Box (See Items).

  • You may take one action each cycle, not including worldhopping.

  • When a player is removed, their items are randomly split up between the players on the same planet as them.

  • When a player is killed, all of their items go to the killer.

 

Factions

  • Seventeenth Shard: You win if there are no Ghostbloods remaining.

  • Ghostbloods: Each cycle, one of you can submit an action to kill one player who is on the same planet as you. You win if you reach parity with the rest of the players.

  • Hoid: If either the Ghostbloods or the Seventeenth Shard reaches their wincon and you’re still alive, then you win. Note that this does not count as a win for either of the other two factions.

 

 

Roles

Each player can have up to three roles, and only one role from each category.

 

Faction-Specific Roles:

 

  • Hoid: If you are on a planet, you may gain the Investiture Role associated with that planet. On Roshar, you can obtain Lightweaving. On Scadrial, you can obtain Soothing. On Nalthis, you can obtain Awakening. First of the Sun and Threnody (if used) have no associated roles. These roles will not show up on scans.

  • Thaidakar: You love being at the top, so you couldn’t stand to impersonate anyone but one of the most noteworthy members of the Seventeenth Shard. Your vote counts twice.

  • Demoux: As a former Church of the Survivor member, you know all about Thaidakar. Once per cycle, you can scan one player, and you will get a result that tells you if that player is Thaidakar or not. As one of the more influential members of the Seventeenth Shard, your vote counts twice.

 

Investiture Roles:

 

  • Lightweaver:  Once per cycle, you can disguise yourself to look like a different role and alignment than you actually are. You have two Lightweavings worth of Stormlight to use during the course of the game, and you can refill your Stormlight for one action while on Roshar.

  • Soother: Physical Allomancy is nice, but as a high-ranking member of the Seventeenth Shard (or the Ghostbloods), emotional Allomancy is far more useful. Once per cycle, you can burn brass to cancel out one vote from a person on the same planet as you. You have two Soothings worth of brass to use over the course of the game, and you can refill your brass stores for one action while on Scadrial.

  • Awakener: Once per cycle, you can Awaken an object and send it to kill another player on the same planet as you. You aren’t likely to get your Breath back after you use it, so you can only do this once per game.

 

Other Roles:

 

  • Records Keeper: You have access to all of the records of each of the Seventeenth Shard members. Once per cycle, you can look into another player on the same planet as you to see any and all of their non-faction-specific roles. 

  • Investigator: You have the skills needed to dive into each members’ pasts, and figure out if something seems to be off. Once during the game, you can look into another player on the same planet as you to learn their alignment and faction-specific roles.

  • Records Writer: Each cycle, you can send a message to HQ to be put in the write-up. This does not cost an action.

 

Worlds and Worldhopping

 

At the start of the game, each player is assigned one of the following world docs, which they can access and edit. Once per cycle, they can then transfer to another doc of their choosing. This does not cost an action. There is no Sel doc because of the dangerous conditions in Sel’s Cognitive Realm.

  • Roshar: While on Roshar, you can instantly start a PM with anyone else on Roshar once per cycle by using a pair of Spanreeds. This PM can be accessed for the rest of the game, even if you leave Roshar.

  • Scadrial: While on Scadrial, you can get a Device (the latest technology) that tells you if you’ve been targeted by the Records Keeper, the Investigator, or Demoux. However, this costs you one action, and the device will stop working after one cycle.

  • Nalthis: While on Nalthis, you have a 20 percent chance of Returning if you are executed or otherwise killed. However, if you have Returned once, you cannot do it again.

  • First of the Sun: First of the Sun is only used if there are 14 or more players. While there, you can bond with an Aviar (for one action) that will protect you from any causes of death except for the execution. This is only available once per game.

  • Threnody: Threnody is only used if there are 18 or more players. While there, you can send a short (100 words or less) message to the dead/spec doc. This does not cost an action.

 

Items

 

  • Spanreeds: See Roshar.

  • Device: See Scadrial.

  • Aviar: Aviars are only available if there are 14 or more players. See First of the Sun.

  • Seon Box: If you have a Seon Box, you may instantly start a PM with one player of your choice for an action. This PM will last until the end of the game.

  • Connection Medallion: When taking an action targeting someone, you can use the Connection Medallion to target someone on a different planet. 

 

Order of Actions

 

  1. Records Writer

  2. Lightweaving

  3. Aviar

  4. Demoux/Thaidakar Vote Manipulation

  5. Execution

  6. Returning from Execution

  7. Awakening

  8. Returning from Awakening kill

  9. Records Keeper/Investigator/Demoux

  10. Device

 

At first glance, I think Thaidakar's (and maybe Demoux's) ability should be optional. Otherwise it would be rather easy for the village to find Thaidakar, at the expense of also losing Demoux. Giving the village an easy 1-1 trade isn't the best for balance, I think.

I'd also say the planet abilities could use some work, depending on what your intentions are for them. As things are, likely everyone would jump to Roshar C1 to get all their PMs, and then go to Nalthis to not die, and then somewhere else if they return.

Depending on how settled you are on what's already here, I would suggest trying to design your game primarily around the core mechanic of the world docs (if this is, in fact, what you want to be the main feature of your game). The game might become more interesting if worldhopping is somehow limited.

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On 5/24/2021 at 7:03 PM, Araris Valerian said:

At first glance, I think Thaidakar's (and maybe Demoux's) ability should be optional. Otherwise it would be rather easy for the village to find Thaidakar, at the expense of also losing Demoux. Giving the village an easy 1-1 trade isn't the best for balance, I think.

I'd also say the planet abilities could use some work, depending on what your intentions are for them. As things are, likely everyone would jump to Roshar C1 to get all their PMs, and then go to Nalthis to not die, and then somewhere else if they return.

Depending on how settled you are on what's already here, I would suggest trying to design your game primarily around the core mechanic of the world docs (if this is, in fact, what you want to be the main feature of your game). The game might become more interesting if worldhopping is somehow limited.

I've done some thinking on it - would it become imbalanced if worldhopping was random? Like, if you're on Roshar C1 (and we have more than 18 players, so we're using all of the world docs), you have a 20% chance of staying on Roshar for C2, and a 20% chance of going to each other world doc. Maybe instead of that, worldhopping has a 25% chance of failing and landing you on a planet that isn't where you wanted to go.

Edited by Szeth_Pancakes
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2 hours ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

I've done some thinking on it - would it become imbalanced if worldhopping was random? Like, if you're on Roshar C1 (and we have more than 18 players, so we're using all of the world docs), you have a 20% chance of staying on Roshar for C2, and a 20% chance of going to each other world doc. Maybe instead of that, worldhopping has a 25% chance of failing and landing you on a planet that isn't where you wanted to go.

I think the random worldhopping has some potential. If you keep the planet abilities as they are, even adding a chance of failure, players would likely just hop 1-2 extra times until they end where they want. I think for best results you want something that either encourages players to spread out somewhat evenly (you probably want to rethink some of the bonuses the planets give in this case), or (like the random mechanic your proposed) that forces a roughly even distribution. Because players clustering in the same doc kinda removes the point of restricting game discussion from the thread.

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On 5/22/2021 at 4:19 PM, DrakeMarshall said:

So a random weird game idea I just had:

A Serial Killer type role but with a very nonstandard killing power based on information gathering. Every night they can submit one role+alignment guess for each player. All players whose roles and alignments were both correctly guessed on that night are attacked.

Now, this would be horribly unbalanced in anything but an extreme role madness game, probably one where each player has a unique role or set of roles, and there are some possible configurations of roles that never even appear in the game. But for such a game, it might be balanced. The Serial Killer starts out extremely weak and probably unable to kill anyone on the first cycle, but gets stronger as they accumulate more information, to the point where if the other factions let them live into the late game they are a massive threat who could theoretically end the game in a single night. Serial Killers often have a much harder time hiding in the late game compared to the early game, so this sort of escalation sort of works. Also, it gives the Serial Killer quite a bit more to do than just avoid being caught. Also, it provides a significant mechanical incentive for everyone else to avoid roleclaiming like the plague, which might be desirable in some setups.

Idk how well it would actually work, but I am generally rather fond of unusual SK roles that impact how the village and elims play the game.

I've seen a close variant of this role mentioned other places, mainly as an elim role. As you mentioned, it's good for preventing roleclaiming. I've seen it used in a few games where mass roleclaiming would have broken the game. The main issue with the role is getting people to give up information. With a lot of roles, it's already pretty easy to go through the game without claiming or making your role obvious. This role gives people even more of a reason to avoid claiming. I'm a bit unsure about how well this would work as a Serial Killer role. The ability of the role to win is pretty much dependant on whether villagers choose to claim. This means that the SK can get really screwed over if people just refuse to claim.

A few other issues to consider:

  • You'd have to make sure that the game would still be balanced if the SK dies. If the SK is the only mechanism preventing roleclaims, then people could freely claim after the SK dies. This would mainly be an issue if you were using the SK as a mechanic to prevent roleclaims.
  • This version of the SK would hurt the village much more than the elims. People are much more likely to be village than elim, so unless an SK has a very strong read against a particular player, they'd just put down village for every player's alignment. This means that far more villagers would be killed.
  • The SK could decide to play it safe and just guess the same role for everyone each time. The SK also has an incentive to pursue this strategy if there are any roles in the game that could harm it. So in a setup with this role, I think that most high powered village roles would die quickly.

So overall, I could see it working, but it'd have to be a very carefully designed setup. I think it works a bit better as an elim role or elim faction ability.

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26 minutes ago, Straw said:

This means that the SK can get really screwed over if people just refuse to claim.

I think you underestimate the levels of PM unsafety the current meta can reach :P 

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5 hours ago, Straw said:

I've seen a close variant of this role mentioned other places, mainly as an elim role. As you mentioned, it's good for preventing roleclaiming. I've seen it used in a few games where mass roleclaiming would have broken the game. The main issue with the role is getting people to give up information. With a lot of roles, it's already pretty easy to go through the game without claiming or making your role obvious. This role gives people even more of a reason to avoid claiming. I'm a bit unsure about how well this would work as a Serial Killer role. The ability of the role to win is pretty much dependant on whether villagers choose to claim. This means that the SK can get really screwed over if people just refuse to claim.

A few other issues to consider:

  • You'd have to make sure that the game would still be balanced if the SK dies. If the SK is the only mechanism preventing roleclaims, then people could freely claim after the SK dies. This would mainly be an issue if you were using the SK as a mechanic to prevent roleclaims.
  • This version of the SK would hurt the village much more than the elims. People are much more likely to be village than elim, so unless an SK has a very strong read against a particular player, they'd just put down village for every player's alignment. This means that far more villagers would be killed.
  • The SK could decide to play it safe and just guess the same role for everyone each time. The SK also has an incentive to pursue this strategy if there are any roles in the game that could harm it. So in a setup with this role, I think that most high powered village roles would die quickly.

So overall, I could see it working, but it'd have to be a very carefully designed setup. I think it works a bit better as an elim role or elim faction ability.

Hurrah, a wild feedback has appeared! :) Thank you; it is in many ways quite insightful.

I am pretty sure I have come across the elim variant at some point, though I do not recall where or when. It would be valid to draw parallels between them, seeing as it is a considerable part of my inspiration for this role. However, I do believe the particulars of this role might address at least some of the issues you outlined.

To speak to the first one, all of my thinking about the balance of this role has taken for granted the fact that nobody would roleclaim in such a game (at least, certainly not in the thread). It would be a tad silly of me to suggest a role that deliberately encourages an absence of roleclaiming, which then becomes broken in the event that nobody roleclaims :P If anything, the role becomes broken if people do start roleclaiming for whatever reason, in which case half of the serial killer's job has already been done for them. Remember that the serial killer has the ability to submit guesses for every player on every night. If the game went on long enough, they are guaranteed to eventually find everyone's role no matter what, even if nobody role claims and they are just making completely random guesses. The question is how much better than random they can do: how quickly they can manage to narrow down who is who, and how long they can survive in the meantime. And surviving while figuring out who is who is largely the premise of the game, no? This is much the same challenge one is presented with when choosing who to vote up or who to use an alignment scanner on.

For other things:

  • You are entirely correct that a game still has to be balanced if the SK dies. The deterrent to roleclaiming is conditional on the SK's survival. Or another way to look at it is that it potentially only works as a deterrent in the early game, and not the late game. The role is definitely not an effective band-aid for a game setup that would become broken if everyone roleclaimed. The idea of a deterrent from roleclaiming appeals to me more as a way to mix up the meta, not as a way to fix balance issues that are part of a game.
  • Yeah, this is gonna be a bit of an issue for the SK role, no matter which way you cut it. While most any SK will hit more villagers in the average game (at least until the elims have taken a clear lead), that tendency is likely exaggerated for this particular SK, for the simple reason that guessing "village" alignment is much more likely to result in a successful kill. The presence of this role improves the odds for the elims to some extent, and any setup that uses it will have to take that into account, and even the scales somehow. Even so, I do not think the disparity is as dire as you may believe, because of two mitigating factors:
    • It is decidedly not in the SK's interest to wipe out the village while leaving the elim team intact. This is especially the case because in many setups, the SK will lose automatically if the elims ever reach parity, which means the SK has to kill all the elims before finishing off the village.
    • Even though submitting "village" for most of your guesses is definitely the best way to get early kills, I would argue that this playstyle is not always the optimal way to play the role. The role is not really limited by action economy: it can theoretically kill everyone concurrently in one night. As such, I would think that getting information is at least as valuable as getting kills, and getting to rule out possibilities for somebody's role/alignment might sometimes be as useful as killing them.
  • Yeah, this is one of the big reasons that a game like this is needs to have some roles (or combinations of roles, if that's a thing the game does) that are not given to anyone. Such holes in the roster hopefully make a systematic approach like the one you are describing rather more unsafe, since it means any attempt at removing the high-power village roles could end up being wasted. Also, I would imagine one of the roles with the biggest targets on their backs would be protect-type roles, and if you give them the ability to self-protect, than they at least have the ability to anticipate and counter the strategy you are describing.
    • I suppose this need not necessarily be restricted to only protective roles: any sufficiently "high-powered" role with an obvious target on their back could receive a complementary limited-use ability to self-protect. This would be yet another thing that would have to be factored into the game balance, but it's an option.

At the end of the day, you're right that the role needs a very specific setup in order to work. It's a game that needs to be interesting and playable with the SK, and equally interesting and playable without it, which is no mean feat. And it's practically required that the GM who does role distribution is trolling the players :P In addition, a lot of thought has to be given about how many possible roles to include, since this directly impacts the SK's power compared to everybody else. As roles go, this role is undoubtedly trickier than most to incorporate into a setup whilst maintaining balance.

Idk if it would ever get used in anything, but I can hope the payoff would be worth the trouble :D It's definitely fiddly, but a lot of SKs are fiddly, and I do think there are real gains you get from making this be an SK role and not an elim role. I think a relatively simple (at least on paper) ability that escalates in power as the game goes on is a good fit for an SK, and I hope that it creates a third party with genuinely different and interesting methods compared to the other two factions.

Phew and now I've gone and made a really rather lengthy post for what was initially a pretty short role description :P Anyway I guess this is plausibly a good warmup for the upcoming game? :P Because Lord Ruler knows I like making big analysis posts*

*unless I'm a Gasper again

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On 5/23/2021 at 8:19 AM, DrakeMarshall said:

So a random weird game idea I just had:

A Serial Killer type role but with a very nonstandard killing power based on information gathering. Every night they can submit one role+alignment guess for each player. All players whose roles and alignments were both correctly guessed on that night are attacked.

Now, this would be horribly unbalanced in anything but an extreme role madness game, probably one where each player has a unique role or set of roles, and there are some possible configurations of roles that never even appear in the game. But for such a game, it might be balanced. The Serial Killer starts out extremely weak and probably unable to kill anyone on the first cycle, but gets stronger as they accumulate more information, to the point where if the other factions let them live into the late game they are a massive threat who could theoretically end the game in a single night. Serial Killers often have a much harder time hiding in the late game compared to the early game, so this sort of escalation sort of works. Also, it gives the Serial Killer quite a bit more to do than just avoid being caught. Also, it provides a significant mechanical incentive for everyone else to avoid roleclaiming like the plague, which might be desirable in some setups.

Idk how well it would actually work, but I am generally rather fond of unusual SK roles that impact how the village and elims play the game.

Have you been peeking into my Docs?  :o  I happen to have a role in my role insanity game that works almost exactly how you described it.  I balanced it by have several ways to hide roles from scans, a plethora of false roles and a couple of ways to gain or lose roles so even if someone learns your role, that doesn't mean it will still be your role later in the game.
Of course there's numerous ways to learn someone's role too. :P 
Surprisingly, while the game looks very hard to balance what with everyone having multiple roles, every simulation I've run has the teams fairly even.

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  • 4 weeks later...

As mentioned, I've been toying for a couple years with the idea of a Bladerunner game (thanks, Bladerunner 2049!) and then the idea came back to me when looking up old SE games last year or so and remembering the utter chaos that came with LG8. This game takes a base Tyrian Falls ruleset (alright, not quite base Tyrian Falls - I'm using a combination of base Tyrian and Wyrm's refinements in LG17) and tries to salvage the kandra rules from LG8.

Without further ado:

LGXX: Do Kandra Dream of Electric Sparrows?

“And blood-black nothingness began to spin
A system of cells interlinked within
Cells interlinked within cells interlinked
Within one stem. And dreadfully distinct
Against the dark, a tall white fountain played.”

Pale Fire, Vladimir Nabokov

As Scadrial marches on into the neon-washed reaches of the far future, Heron IndustriesTM is one of the megacorporations at the forefront of innovation, driving technological progress through its extensive R&D investments, and combining engineering with Hemalurgic science to usher in a new era of wonders and prosperity.

...For some.

This, however, might be about to change for you.

A representative from Heron IndustriesTM has been sighted lurking around the Electric Sparrow, putting out word that she has a job for a skilled Mistrunner crew. This, you hear, is the score: the big one. Heron IndustriesTM has never been stingy in compensating the mercenaries it hires, and for all the times you’ve run the mists, there might never be such an opportunity again. 

All you need to do is to penetrate a secure installation under lockdown, deal with a containment breach, and the boxings will be wired to your account. The risks are high, but the rewards are greater still.

What could possibly go wrong?

 

ajP5AmsOMw1891gojId4eWXYqfmnvQyj5t76Ny8iDQYwbVrz68x9GDMgz9u3mNDPURb-BYot3WvqxPTxY7JwZI6jkwE2LeO9cJOzBxovYmtbJmwmAqsxmYfE-g0alWC2p1-4JN7Y

 

General Rules:

Spoiler

1. This game is a standard Anonymous LG, with 48 hour Day Turns and 24 hour Night Turns. PMs are closed until or unless I tell you otherwise.

2. Voting is to be done in the thread. There is a minimum threshold of two votes for terminations to take place. Ties will result in no termination taking place. Please colour-code your termination votes as follows: Wyrmhero [red and bold]. Retract your termination votes as follows: Wyrmhero [green and bold].

3. The SynthKandra know who each other are and the roles they have, and will have access to a faction doc to coordinate. In addition, every Night, the SynthKandra may send in a kill order.

4. Write-ups will be minimally informative. At this point, the only thing the write-up will announce accurately are the roles and alignment of the deceased. It will also differentiate between a SynthKandra kill and a Sharpshooter kill. Otherwise, the write-up should not be regarded as an accurate guide to what actually happened. I intend to take full creative liberties and will not be held responsible for any confusion, false assumptions, or damages resulting from treating the write-up like the Holy Word of Wyrm. There may be Shardblade duels.

5. The Order of Actions is as follows:

Quote

Day:

-Infiltrator
-Negotiator/Enforcer
-Termination

Night:

-Communications Specialist
-Hacker, Close-Quarters Specialist
-Combat Medic
-Sharpshooter/Kill/Perfect Mimicry

6. Players only have one action per Turn. This rule applies to any role actions, with the exception of Perfect Mimicry, which is a free action.

7. Please @ me for clarificatory questions in thread, and bold them so I will pick them out. For clarificatory questions in PM and doc, please bold them. While I will do my best to get to all questions in a timely manner, my priority will be to address rule clarifications asked in the stipulated manner. (This also guarantees I won’t derp and miss them.)

8. Players are reminded this is an anon game, and are encouraged to maintain anonymity and to refrain from confirming or denying their identity, or using their personal relationships with others to authenticate themselves. The anonymous game rules are summarised below:

Quote

At the start of the game, you will be issued an anonymous account. There are a number of rules associated with the use of an Anonymous Account. Please follow them carefully. Given the potential for abuse of Anonymous Accounts, any rule breaking using the accounts will be dealt with harshly.

1) Do not change the password of the anonymous account you are issued. The IM and I will have access to all anonymous accounts for the duration of the game.

2) Do not use the anonymous accounts to PM any non-anonymous account, other than the accounts of the GM(s). Please do not use your normal accounts to PM anonymous accounts.

3) Once again, do not tell any other player or individual associated with SE whether you are playing or not playing the Anonymous Game. Player identities will be revealed after the game, not on the death of their avatar. Players are asked (but not required) not to reveal their own identity after their death, until the end of the game, including in the dead/spec doc. Players wishing to spectate rather than play should PM me for a link to the spectator doc. Questions and rules clarifications should be submitted in your sign up PMs, and will be posted by myself in the signups thread.

4) Do not change anything cosmetic about the accounts, including member title, username, signature, and avatar.

9. Due to a conversion element in this game, it is inevitable some players may enter the game playing to get converted. While this is not strictly banned, you are encouraged to think about how your teammates would feel about your decision.

 

f-oIqZb_IqOYhslmEOmkbqak0z1PRlfejUFwkViyAg7jOqjPJCqhZgYU4WYN3_n40H-FIWN7-fLfgBZramQLJ3gGIn65_XsQ1qzo6gl8jibQuEwTlO3DzTRjdsrwn6uEpyfpzeQr

 

Win Conditions:

Spoiler
  • The Mistrunners are aiming to contain the damage from Project Replicant. They win when they can identify and terminate all the SynthKandra.
     
  • The SynthKandra are trying to survive and avoid termination. They win when they can outnumber the surviving players.

 

ajP5AmsOMw1891gojId4eWXYqfmnvQyj5t76Ny8iDQYwbVrz68x9GDMgz9u3mNDPURb-BYot3WvqxPTxY7JwZI6jkwE2LeO9cJOzBxovYmtbJmwmAqsxmYfE-g0alWC2p1-4JN7Y

 

Roles:

Spoiler

Field Operative: You provide the brute force (or brute intelligence, whichever is required) for the job. While you may not provide a specific strength, your versatility allows you to contribute particularly well to missions.

SynthKandra*: The final, crowning success of Project Replicant, combining both engineering and Hemalurgic science, SynthKandra were created to emulate Harmony’s own kandra, becoming the perfect industrial spies. They have access to a faction kill.

  • Perfect Mimicry: Similar to the kandra they imitate, SynthKandra have the ability to devour the bones of their victims. This enables them to assume the form of those they have killed. X times in a game, each SynthKandra may send in a Mimicry order. This enables them to replace a freshly-killed player by taking over their anonymous account. Doing so will abandon their previous body, and this will be announced and reflected in the write-up, with that player being revealed having been killed. The kill must succeed for Perfect Mimicry to work, but does not need to be the faction kill. [N.B. X will be defined based on player count and balance considerations.]

  • Players affected by Perfect Mimicry become Taken. Their win condition changes to that of the SynthKandra, and they get a private doc with the SynthKandra who has taken over their body. They do not get access to the SynthKandra doc, and pass on to the dead doc the moment the SynthKandra takes another player’s body.

  • See clarifications for how the SynthKandra role works; it interacts differently with rolescans, and they may start with another base role.

Communications Specialist: You are the communications expert on a Mistrunner crew, allowing the team to communicate through secured comm channels while out in the field. As long as one Communications Specialist lives, players may send PMs to each other.

  • Emergency Broadcast: Every Night Turn, you may send in a message to the GM to be posted in the write-up.

Hacker: A master of sniffing out information from the Cognitive Matrix, the computer systems at the secure Heron IndustriesTM installation are your plaything. Technically, you’re supposed to leave most of the systems alone, but since when have you cared about the rules of megacorps anyway?

  • All Your (Data)Base Are Belong To Me: Every Night, the Hacker may invade the Cognitive Matrix, raiding databases in search of a player’s specialisation [=role.]

Close-Quarters Specialist: You specialise in fighting in close-quarters combat with opposing security forces. 

  • Shock Probe: Armed with the proprietary Heron IndustriesTM Shock Knife (developed after the Rosharan Pain Knife) and shock darts, you are capable of stunning a player. While non-lethal, the electric shock is specifically calibrated to disrupt the neuro-muscular systems of a SynthKandra, briefly revealing their true identity to you. Every Night, you may target a player, discovering their alignment.

Combat Medic: You have an extensive knowledge of medicine, first aid, and extraction under opposing fire, and combined with some of the latest megacorp advancements that...fell off a back of a truck, you are well-equipped to treat injuries that your crew members may acquire while operating in the field.

  • As Good As New: Every Night, you may target yourself or another player, saving them from death [=one kill.] You cannot target the same player twice in a row.

Sharpshooter: With your fast reflexes and keen eyes, you are used to taking up a supporting position in order to remove persistent enemy targets that your crew is going up against.

  • One Shot, One Kill: Every Night, the Sharpshooter may target another player for death, taking them out.

Negotiator: Charismatic and well-connected, a crew’s Negotiator plays an important role in soliciting jobs, and...encouraging others to change their minds. Your methods of persuasion are tested and they work, even on the recalcitrant.

  • Hello, There!: Every Day, you may target another player and...persuade them to see things your way. That player’s vote will change to be on another player of your choice. This sacrifices your own vote. This change will be reflected in the number of votes in the writeup, but the player will still appear to have voted for their original choice.

Enforcer: A crew’s Enforcer is a blunt solution to more elegant problems. Sometimes, you don’t need to overthink things. Armed with a number of coercive methods, the Enforcer is able to break opposition, allowing a Mistrunner crew access to secrets and places they wouldn’t otherwise.

  • Aggressive Negotiations: Every Day, you may target another player and persuade them to stay out of it. This changes their vote to a no vote. This change will be reflected in the number of votes in the writeup, but the player will still appear to have voted for their original choice.

Infiltrator: Meticulous and cautious, you lay the groundwork for infiltrations and deep cover assignments. You are a master of disguise, capable of augmenting your deceptions by altering even information available in various data silos across the Cognitive Matrix, as well as fuzzing disruptive communications from others.

  • White Noise: Every Day, you can hide the Alignment and Role of yourself and/or another player during the next Cycle. This causes the target(s) to appear as a Field Operative and Mistrunner. White Noise also prevents the target(s)' vote from being hijacked. Unless stated otherwise by the player, you are assumed to be using this ability at Day on yourself.

Weapons Expert: Tough as nails, your cybernetic augmentations give you an edge in combat situations, and your weapons expertise helps you walk out of them alive.

  • Die Another Day: You can survive a single kill or termination, and your survival will be reflected in the write-up. If they are attacked again, you die; finally.

 

f-oIqZb_IqOYhslmEOmkbqak0z1PRlfejUFwkViyAg7jOqjPJCqhZgYU4WYN3_n40H-FIWN7-fLfgBZramQLJ3gGIn65_XsQ1qzo6gl8jibQuEwTlO3DzTRjdsrwn6uEpyfpzeQr

Taken House Rules:

Spoiler
  • Taken should be playing in primarily an advisory role; while Taken can proofread or help the SynthKandra with posts and PMs, the SynthKandra should do most of the writing/legwork. Ultimately, the SynthKandra should not be a conduit for the Taken.
     
  • Taken will be locked out of the anon account when the SynthKandra takes over.
     
  • Taken and SynthKandra should be clearly demarcated at all times within their private doc with distinct colours.
     
  • SynthKandra are not permitted to copy and paste between their Taken doc and the Elim doc.
     
  • SynthKandra are, however, allowed to copy and paste freely between their PMs, the thread, and the Taken doc.

 

ajP5AmsOMw1891gojId4eWXYqfmnvQyj5t76Ny8iDQYwbVrz68x9GDMgz9u3mNDPURb-BYot3WvqxPTxY7JwZI6jkwE2LeO9cJOzBxovYmtbJmwmAqsxmYfE-g0alWC2p1-4JN7Y

 

Thoughts/Comments:

Spoiler
  • SynthKandra will take over the roles of players devoured via Perfect Mimicry, but this will come at the cost of losing any base roles they may have started with. This should also give the Infiltrator reason to exist.
     
  • Not all Elims may be SynthKandra; similarly, not all SynthKandra may have the same amount of hops. The number of hops will not be told to the Village.
     
  • I like base Tyrian rules, and given that Tyrian is the most basic game type (minus QF1 type games) to exist in SE, it's an established baseline from which to work.
     
  • This will end up being a hybrid conversion/NK game. Balancing that should be trickier than normal, which is another reason I like the idea of baseline Tyrian.
     
  • Since the kill must go through, the first time Weapons Experts are attacked, they won't be valid targets for Perfect Mimicry.
     
  • While SynthKandra can actually use Perfect Mimicry on any player dead in that Night Turn (i.e. they can occupy the body of players killed by a Sharpshooter kill), this will burn one of their body hop attempts, even if it fails. In general, if the player fails to die, the attempt is still expended. Flavour-wise, you tried to devour them, were repelled (surprise!), and injured in the process.
     
  • CQS-es should be able to scan SynthKandra - Hackers should get the base role, whether vanilla or otherwise. They won't see SynthKandra.
     
  • Each SynthKandra has a separate body hop attempt counter. They cannot share it with their teammates or bestow it upon them.
     
  • SynthKandra who take over a Weapons Expert will not get back the expended extra life.
     
  • Perfect Mimicry is a free action. It does not count to the action limit. So a SynthKandra can submit a kill and a Perfect Mimicry order at the same time. 

 

Edited by Kasimir
v 2.2
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  • 2 weeks later...

Here's my new game, I came up with the idea while reading LG1's aftermath and saw someone mention a Kandra elim faction, so I attempted that with a unknown vampire faction that is connected by PMs with a known killless elim faction.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/19J5aPnxpMqpTnLuy81eVYM5gg_p_NtuMKv0exbR75MY/edit?usp=drivesdk

I checked to make sure the link was working this time.

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On 5/7/2021 at 10:25 AM, Araris Valerian said:

I've updated the rules for my PM Unsafety LG: link. The main change involved limiting the uses of all abilities, and changing the location abilities, taking inspiration from One Night Werewolf. I'd love to hear any feedback. The goal of these rules is to explore the current meta of PMs in the community by forcing players to share information to be able to successfully use their roles.

I think I'd really love to see what a player like Maili or Drake could do with this, since there's the element of potentially sharing someone else's location or info-brokering :P (Or, I suppose, a lot of people lying about their location to try to trick the location out from someone else.)

I like the general idea and I think you're right that it'll be interesting to build a location system on top of the base game. I have some questions/thoughts about the location rules in particular:

  • Players are not informed if their location changes unless otherwise specified. How does this work? Does this mean you can't change your location unless you use a location ability (and those have 1 charge)? 
  • Since OoA has location actions a step below Allomantic actions, I'd assume that even if your target changes location, as long as you specify where they began from at the start of the night, you should be good to go.
  • I'm a bit concerned about the Elim Coinshot issue. If the Elims don't have a faction kill, or if the faction kill is location-dependent, then without the Coinshot, the Elims are going to be in trouble. (Of course the Elims could have more than one Coinshot and this is likely given the location issues, just thinking that this then tells the players something about the likely distro.) 
  • Four buildings seems good to me. There's still concerns about players randomly guessing but four should reduce that to unlikely.
  • I do like the Elim location scan as it prevents Village from hunkering down. And I think the prospect of using their abilities should make Villagers a bit more free with information. That being said, what's to stop Villagers from deciding not to share info and turning this into a vanilla game? It's not entirely awful as a prospect since the Elims would be tied down to whoever they scanned the Night before, and it's plausible that the player may simply have moved right after the scan.

I like the location roles and am interested in this game and seeing how they interact :P But my perspective as a player might be an outlier because I don't feel incentivised enough to necessarily give up my location.

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8 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Players are not informed if their location changes unless otherwise specified. How does this work? Does this mean you can't change your location unless you use a location ability (and those have 1 charge)? 

Yeah, locations are meant to change infrequently. That way there is some lasting value to location info, but having your location known isn’t guaranteed to get you killed or whatever.

 

8 hours ago, Kasimir said:
  •  
  • Since OoA has location actions a step below Allomantic actions, I'd assume that even if your target changes location, as long as you specify where they began from at the start of the night, you should be good to go.

Correct. The reasoning for this is that the allomantic abilities lose a charge if they fail, and I wanted that to mostly be a penalty for incorrect guessing, not a location change happening at the last minute.

 

8 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I'm a bit concerned about the Elim Coinshot issue. If the Elims don't have a faction kill, or if the faction kill is location-dependent, then without the Coinshot, the Elims are going to be in trouble. (Of course the Elims could have more than one Coinshot and this is likely given the location issues, just thinking that this then tells the players something about the likely distro.) 

I am still thinking about this. One thought I had was that the elims have both a faction scan and a faction kill, but have to choose which one they use. Or, maybe just give them both. I do want any faction kill to be dependent on location, because I want there to be a significant risk behind the village trusting players with their actual location. The benefits of only having elim Coinshots is that villagers who lie well about their location can potentially cripple the elims. Perhaps a Coinshot spike could function as a passable Coinshot role among the elims, acting as both a faction kill but with the other restrictions of a Coinshot.

8 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I do like the Elim location scan as it prevents Village from hunkering down. And I think the prospect of using their abilities should make Villagers a bit more free with information. That being said, what's to stop Villagers from deciding not to share info and turning this into a vanilla game? It's not entirely awful as a prospect since the Elims would be tied down to whoever they scanned the Night before, and it's plausible that the player may simply have moved right after the scan

Depending on the distribution, not sharing any information could disadvantage the village. But I don’t honestly think this will be an issue in the current PM meta. Or the current meta in general. Hopefully the folks that sign up for this game would be ones hoping to take advantage of it’s mechanics. But, a game with crazy rules turned vanilla isn’t the worst thing to ever happen to a GM around here.

Thanks for the feedback! I’ll definitely change the elim faction abilities, and put some thought into incentivizing sharing locations a bit more.

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Okay, I've made a couple of changes: link to updated rules. The first, directed at preventing this game from turning into just a vanilla game, is a flavor award:

Quote

End of game bonus:

Location info will not be revealed in the dead/spec doc, but may be discussed there. At the end of the game, all players have the option of submitting a list of the final location of each player. Points will be earned based on how many cycles prior to game end each player occupied the location guessed for them: 5 points for a correct guess, and then minus 1 per cycle since that location was occupied. For example, suppose Aralis is in Location 1 until Cycle 4, when he moves to Location 2. Then the game ends at Cycle 6. A player that guesses Aralis is in Location 2 will earn 5 points, while a guess of Location 1 will earn 3 points. Any other guess will earn 0 points. Whoever earns the most points wins the honorary title Lord of the Slums, to be used at their discretion. A bonus writeup may be given for the player that wins the award.

I still think the mechanics themselves offer incentive enough for trading info, but this should add to that without actually changing the game balance at all.

The other change is to give the elims a faction kill, subject to the same restrictions as a normal coinshot ability:

 

Quote

  • Standard eliminator faction. The Ministry Agents win when they reach parity with the  Skaa. They have a group doc to communicate in, a faction Night location scan, and a faction kill, both detailed below.
  • Ministry Records: Each night, any one Ministry agent can scan a single player to learn their location.
  • Hemalurgic Steel Spike: Each night, any one Ministry agent can target a single player to kill them. This ability has the same restrictions as the Coinshot role; two charges shared among the faction members, with loss of one charge and failure of the action if the target’s location is not correctly given. This may only be recharged by an elim Metallurgist.

I also made the Elder and Metallurgist roles unable to grant players more role charges than they started with, and unable to self-target, so they will want to be in contact with someone before using their ability.

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5 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

 

Here's a simple QF I've been working on. Thoughts? Has this, or something similar, been done before?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VFj2XbOHzXdxv-aFKQRGpb0fB_2iu7WYJy1zl4Qs_yw/edit?usp=sharing

What’s stopping a single Inner Circle member from outing the whole elim team D1?

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