The Art of Game Creation

[Straw]

6 hours ago, Somebody from Sel said:

Hey do the SE games have to be in the Cosmere or can they be in say, the Cytoverse because I'm thinking of spewing out some Superiority based roles here and maybe GMing a game after I've played one or two more games

SE games can be set in any work by Sanderson. Skyward is definitely fine.

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

4 hours ago, Straw said:

SE games can be set in any work by Sanderson. Skyward is definitely fine.

Got it will spew later

Edited October 31, 2020 by Somebody from Sel

[Alvron]

13 hours ago, Somebody from Sel said:

Hey do the SE games have to be in the Cosmere or can they be in say, the Cytoverse because I'm thinking of spewing out some Superiority based roles here and maybe GMing a game after I've played one or two more games

7 hours ago, Straw said:

SE games can be set in any work by Sanderson. Skyward is definitely fine.

They can also be non-Sanderson if you want but those require a pass to play.

 

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

Okay so I said I would spew and I'm gonna spew 

This will be "aliens" vs humans in concept I've done some balancing but not perfect balancing

Alien roles

Figments: Figments can spend one night in order to have one of their chosen targets PMs revealed at random. All of its contents will  either be shown by screenshot or the Figment enters and exits the PM (if Elims get a pm this couldn't be chosen) they can do this until a person has no more pms to be revealed.

Kitsen: Kitsen can gain one extra vote to use whenever they want however this is one-time use.

Burls: Burls can once per game defend a character from a Elim kill and are immune to being voted off until they have stopped a player from being killed (they must protect a player every night).  Unique

Diones: Diones can create two-way PM's that can either contain the Dione or not.

Varvax: Varxax (I don't know the plural) can't do anything. Standard villagers.

Cleaning drone: cleaning drones can see a players role (they cannot see what type of human it is they will just know it's a human).

Krell: Krell can choose to kill a target once per game.

Humans abilities:  all Unique

Cytonic: The Cytonic can protect themselves from being voted off once per game.

Delver: The Delver is the killer of the human group they cannot be killed by a Krell.

AI: The AI can add an extra vote but when they do their name is revealed to the aliens. The AI is also immune to being voted off. When the Delver dies the AI becomes the Delver and they retain DO NOT retain their immunity.

Drone pilot: The Drone pilot can detect the role of their target. Will appear as Cleaning Drone to the Cleaning Drone.

The Hologrammer: Twice per game the Hologrammer can make a alien look like a human or a human look like any alien role.

Pls critique and give your opinions on these

Edited October 31, 2020 by Somebody from Sel

[Mat]

So what are the factions?

Can any of the roles have more than one in the game? Are any faction-specific?

10 minutes ago, Somebody from Sel said:

Figments: Figments can spend one night in order to have one of their chosen targets pms revealed at random (if Elims get a pm this couldn't be chosen) they can do this until a person has no more pms to be revealed

Does this mean that a Figment can target someone and figure out who has a PM with them? What would the point of not counting elims be?

11 minutes ago, Somebody from Sel said:

Kitsen: Kitsen can gain one extra vote however after they use it they cannot vote anymore (or can only vote once not sure which)

So this means that they can vote double once (or vote on two separate people?), and then can't for the rest of the game? That seems underpowered to me, if you only want them to use the power once I think they just can use it once, but still vote normal.

13 minutes ago, Somebody from Sel said:

Burls: Burls can once per game defend a character from a Elim kill and are immune to being voted off

Slightly overpowered imo, though it could be balanced around.

14 minutes ago, Somebody from Sel said:

Diones: Diones can create one way PM's that can either contain the Dione or not

What does 'one-way PM's' mean?

14 minutes ago, Somebody from Sel said:

Cleaning drone: cleaning drones can see a players role (they cannot see what type of human it is they will just know it's a human)

So that's an alignment scanner, not a role scanner? If all the roles are faction specific it's essentially the same thing.

15 minutes ago, Somebody from Sel said:

Delver: The Delver is the killer of the human group they cannot be killed by a Krell

So they're the only one who can submit kills? If they die, the elims basically lose, I would change this.

16 minutes ago, Somebody from Sel said:

AI: The AI can add an extra vote but when they do their name is revealed to the aliens. The AI is also immune to being voted off. When the Delver dies the AI becomes the Delver and they retain their immunity.

Oh, I see... though how does the village win if there's an immune elim? If they kill the krell the elims have a guaranteed win, and that's a problem.

17 minutes ago, Somebody from Sel said:

The Hologrammer: Twice per game the Hologrammer can make a alien look like a human or a human look like any alien role

How long does this last for? If it's permanent, once per game is probably better.

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

On 10/31/2020 at 3:02 PM, Matrim's Dice said:

So what are the factions?

Can any of the roles have more than one in the game? Are any faction-specific?

Does this mean that a Figment can target someone and figure out who has a PM with them? What would the point of not counting elims be?

So this means that they can vote double once (or vote on two separate people?), and then can't for the rest of the game? That seems underpowered to me, if you only want them to use the power once I think they just can use it once, but still vote normal.

Slightly overpowered imo, though it could be balanced around.

What does 'one-way PM's' mean?

So that's an alignment scanner, not a role scanner? If all the roles are faction specific it's essentially the same thing.

So they're the only one who can submit kills? If they die, the elims basically lose, I would change this.

Oh, I see... though how does the village win if there's an immune elim? If they kill the krell the elims have a guaranteed win, and that's a problem.

How long does this last for? If it's permanent, once per game is probably better.

Aliens and humans. Humans=Elims.

The human roles are unique. Otherwise only the Burl is.

They can use the extra vote however you want. I put the fact that they can have votes afterwards in hyphens because I wasn't sure if they should or not.

The fact that there is only one helps balance it i should make it more clear that they lose the immunity after they protect someone.

Meant two-way. Essentially means only two people per pm.

It's both. It's an alignment scanner for humans and a role scanner for aliens

Gonna change that to they do not keep immunity but AI cannot be killed at night that should fix it

Probably until the night after it's used so two rounds. Might make it 3 times.

Okay I've added some more stuff:

If a tie occurs neither party will be able to vote anymore but neither will be killed

If all of the aliens lose their ability to vote they lose 

If the are an equal number of voting humans to aliens, they win

There will be one "joke" that will be played on the players there will be some inclusion in the main post that shows they haven't found out what the joke is yet

Edited November 2, 2020 by Somebody from Sel

[+Lotus]

I have a game idea... Yes another one

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bEqkC4UaTv-DnLgmt543qnXDJNNB_m0GjsS8mo6DY94/edit?usp=sharing

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

On 11/17/2020 at 7:36 PM, Lotus said:

I have a game idea... Yes another one

Are the base chances for 0/1/2 cards and card frequency the same, such that people have a ~10 percent chance of getting a particular card each turn? That high a chance for kills and alignment scans worked out in Zillah's LG69 but maybe you wouldn't want to be able to soulcast a card into an alignment scanner.

Does the cheater submit their replacement action and pick which one of the three cards they want on the same turn? Can they play that card on the same turn they get it?

Everyone gets a card action and a role action, and the elim kill takes up someone's role action, correct?

You'll need a vote minimum/tie determination, PM rules(I'd guess closed) and an OoA, especially for the cheater and clever/one of swords actions.

[Straw]

On 11/17/2020 at 7:36 PM, Lotus said:

I have a game idea... Yes another one

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bEqkC4UaTv-DnLgmt543qnXDJNNB_m0GjsS8mo6DY94/edit?usp=sharing

For the Honest, what kind of tells were you thinking?

Cards: How much is random and how much is predetermined? Is the "deck" an actual deck that has cards removed from it, or just a set of odds? Is the 0-2 thing random? Do Voidbringers have the same deck as everyone else?

Edited November 21, 2020 by Straw

[+Lotus]

16 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Are the base chances for 0/1/2 cards and card frequency the same, such that people have a ~10 percent chance of getting a particular card each turn? That high a chance for kills and alignment scans worked out in Zillah's LG69 but maybe you wouldn't want to be able to soulcast a card into an alignment scanner.

Cards wouldn’t all be the same chances. I haven’t worked out what but soulcasting/Shardblades is going to be pretty hard to get.

16 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Does the cheater submit their replacement action and pick which one of the three cards they want on the same turn? Can they play that card on the same turn they get it?

They would submit the action and revive the replacement card the next turn.

 

16 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Everyone gets a card action and a role action, and the elim kill takes up someone's role action, correct

It would take up a card action. Because the role actions are like ‘out of game’ and the card actions are like ‘in the game.’

1 hour ago, Straw said:

For the Honest, what kind of tells were you thinking?

Like, ‘every time you lie you have to have a question mark somewhere in that post’ Something fairly small but if someone paying attention they might be able to tell.

1 hour ago, Straw said:

Cards: How much is random and how much is predetermined? Is the "deck" an actual deck that has cards removed from it, or just a set of odds? Is the 0-2 thing random? Do Voidbringers have the same deck as everyone else?

I’d love to have a actual deck but it will probably be RNG. The 0-2 is random, except if you have the lucky role, in that case it would be 1-2.

Voidbringers have the same deck.

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

I came up with this earlier would like some feedback:

There would be 3 factions, which would be,

Voidbringer: standard Elim

Listener: they win if at least one member lives to see the Voidbringers lose, they do not count towards parity bit if the number of Village is equal to the number of Elim and there is at least one Listener then the game won't end.

Knights Radiant: standard village

All factions will have these roles bit only ever one at a time.

Adhesion: roleblocks a chosen player.

Gravitation: changes a players target.

Division: kills a player, blockable by shardplate and shardblade.

Abrasion: nullify any actions targeting a specific player.

Progression: protects a player from an Elim kill or an division kill.

Illumination: swap two players surges.

Transformation: change a players surge into a chosen surge.

Transportation: (this is worded badly, I wasn't sure how to say it) swap any abilities targeting one player with a different player.

Cohesion: stop yourself from being Elim killed, only works once.

Tension: stop yourself from being division killed.

Village only roles and abilities:

Bondsmith (unique): detect either a players alignment or their non faction specific ability.

Shardblade: protect another player from the Elim kill, one time target.

Shardplate: protect yourself from the Elim kill, two time target.

Listener only roles and abilities (all are passive):

Dullform: will appear as Village to a Bondsmith alignment scan.

Workform: survive a single Elim kill.

Warform: survive a single division kill.

Nimbleform: nullify and actions targeting you, the targeter will not know.

Scholarform: know the role of a single player at the start of the game, if the player you know the role of dies you will learn the role of a random other player.

Listeners won't appear as having a role to the Bondsmith, no matter which action they choose they will appear as a Listener. Any Villagers will have both a shardplate and a shardblade. I believe this would be a long game, not sure on that though.

[Straw]

7 hours ago, Somebody from Sel said:

Voidbringer: standard Elim

Listener: they win if at least one member lives to see the Voidbringers lose, they do not count towards parity bit if the number of Village is equal to the number of Elim and there is at least one Listener then the game won't end.

Knights Radiant: standard village

For the Listeners, is the first bolded bit essentially the same as saying that the Voidbringers must kill all Listeners to win?

Can both the Listeners and the Knights Radiant win?

7 hours ago, Somebody from Sel said:

All factions will have these roles bit only ever one at a time.

What exactly do you mean?

9 hours ago, Somebody from Sel said:

Cohesion: stop yourself from being Elim killed, only works once.

Does this mean that you can only protect yourself once, or does it mean that you'll automatically survive one elim kill?

9 hours ago, Somebody from Sel said:

Division: kills a player, blockable by shardplate and shardblade.

Shardblade: protect another player from the Elim kill, one time target.

Shardplate: protect yourself from the Elim kill, two time target.

Wouldn't it be easier to say that Blade and Plate block kills in general, given how they seem to block both elim and Division kills?

9 hours ago, Somebody from Sel said:

Shardblade: protect another player from the Elim kill, one time target.

Shardplate: protect yourself from the Elim kill, two time target.

By "one time target" do you mean that you can only try to save someone once, or that you can only successfully save someone once?

9 hours ago, Somebody from Sel said:

Nimbleform: nullify and actions targeting you, the targeter will not know.

Nullifying any actions against you is a bit strong IMO, given how it'd make you immune to any kills.

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

1 hour ago, Straw said:

For the Listeners, is the first bolded bit essentially the same as saying that the Voidbringers must kill all Listeners to win?

Can both the Listeners and the Knights Radiant win?

What exactly do you mean?

Does this mean that you can only protect yourself once, or does it mean that you'll automatically survive one elim kill?

Wouldn't it be easier to say that Blade and Plate block kills in general, given how they seem to block both elim and Division kills?

By "one time target" do you mean that you can only try to save someone once, or that you can only successfully save someone once?

Nullifying any actions against you is a bit strong IMO, given how it'd make you immune to any kills.

Yes and no, if the Voidbringers have more players than the Radiants then they win, if it's an equal number then Listeners mess with it.

Yes.

No matter which faction a player is (except Listener) they will have a surge, Bondsmith counts as a surge.

You have to actively choose to protect yourself but you can do that as many times as you want, you can only survive once.

Yes I wrote these in a weird order.

You can only try to save someone once, if you protect them, great if you don't well too bad.

Yes probably would only actually do anything once, but would always be able to do it.

[DrakeMarshall]

G'day friends.

So I had this idea for a game setup.

It's pretty different from a typical mafia / werewolf setup, but I feel like maybe it could work. It's a single page of rules, though I won't pretend they are particularly simple in practice.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g6hFwS5AShes7Nd_pCPe4G4RlOc9rSi8_uqYMzW-53o/edit?usp=sharing

I don't really know if I would be in a good place to run this by the time I hypothetically got to the end of the SE games queue, so I will also say that if anybody else is interested in using this setup, they may.

[+Lotus]

13 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

G'day friends.

So I had this idea for a game setup.

It's pretty different from a typical mafia / werewolf setup, but I feel like maybe it could work. It's a single page of rules, though I won't pretend they are particularly simple in practice.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g6hFwS5AShes7Nd_pCPe4G4RlOc9rSi8_uqYMzW-53o/edit?usp=sharing

I don't really know if I would be in a good place to run this by the time I hypothetically got to the end of the SE games queue, so I will also say that if anybody else is interested in using this setup, they may.

Sounds a bit like a free-for all game. Sounds fun though.

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

30 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

G'day friends.

So I had this idea for a game setup.

It's pretty different from a typical mafia / werewolf setup, but I feel like maybe it could work. It's a single page of rules, though I won't pretend they are particularly simple in practice.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g6hFwS5AShes7Nd_pCPe4G4RlOc9rSi8_uqYMzW-53o/edit?usp=sharing

I don't really know if I would be in a good place to run this by the time I hypothetically got to the end of the SE games queue, so I will also say that if anybody else is interested in using this setup, they may.

Does actions being publicly revealed include the target(s) of those actions?

Is there any benefit to having a low cardinal? It seems like having a low number means you have to kill more people to win and also makes you a target because everyone else will want to kill you if they find out. People with low cardinal could have more clout, but then it might be necessary to adjust action thresholds up.

[DrakeMarshall]

36 minutes ago, Lotus said:

Sounds a bit like a free-for all game. Sounds fun though.

This game is pretty much a free-for-all game. You only win by surviving to the end, so clearly it's every person for themselves.

This game is pretty much a faction game. There are lots of different groups of people that can win together, but some groups have exclusive win conditions.

This game is pretty much a mafia game. A few people want to kill almost everyone else, and almost everyone else wants to stop those few people.

12 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Does actions being publicly revealed include the target(s) of those actions?

Yes, that was what I had in mind. The downsides of taking higher profile actions are substantial, I think, but then so are the benefits.

Quote

Is there any benefit to having a low cardinal? It seems like having a low number means you have to kill more people to win and also makes you a target because everyone else will want to kill you if they find out. People with low cardinal could have more clout, but then it might be necessary to adjust action thresholds up.

Mechanically: No. Having a lower cardinal is strictly more difficult.

Within limits, I'm okay with some roles being harder than others. The odds are generally stacked against a serial killer type role and they are still quite fun to play in my opinion.

I also don't believe the disadvantages are quite as severe as they initially seem. Nobody has a cardinal of zero, so you're never going at it completely alone. You can generally pick who you would like to team up with, and if you reveal yourself as low cardinal to somebody and ask them to be one of your only allies I feel there is generally less incentive for distrust. I also think it will be pretty hard for high cardinal players to work together in larger groups, for much the same reason the village doesn't always beat the elims, so I suspect that players of both lower and higher cardinals might end up as part of smallish coalitions, at least in practice.

All that said, I'm definitely not opposed to buffing low cardinal players some. I'm open to giving them a bonus to clout, if there's a sensible way to determine what that bonus should be for different cardinals (and you are right, action thresholds might also need to be revisited in that case).

[Straw]

2 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

G'day friends.

So I had this idea for a game setup.

It's pretty different from a typical mafia / werewolf setup, but I feel like maybe it could work. It's a single page of rules, though I won't pretend they are particularly simple in practice.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g6hFwS5AShes7Nd_pCPe4G4RlOc9rSi8_uqYMzW-53o/edit?usp=sharing

I don't really know if I would be in a good place to run this by the time I hypothetically got to the end of the SE games queue, so I will also say that if anybody else is interested in using this setup, they may.

Looking at the rules, I'm confused as to why Investigate costs much more than Assail. It seems like eliminating someone would be much better than learning their Cardinal.

Also, what exactly is revealed when your action is announced?

It might be good to give the Overt method more clout, given how +1 clout is a minor advantage, since it's not at a threshold (4 clout is needed to kill, so going over wouldn't be that good). It also comes with a pretty severe disadvantage, since people know your offensive actions and can cancel them. It also requires you to put things in one cycle behind, which means you lose a ton of flexibility. I can't really see people using it.

I agree that lower Cardinal players should be given some benefit, and giving them more clout seems like a solid solution.

[DrakeMarshall]

Just now, Straw said:

Looking at the rules, I'm confused as to why Investigate costs much more than Assail. It seems like eliminating someone would be much better than learning their Cardinal.

I believe this is fairly realistic. Eliminating a potential threat is generally a lot simpler than determining whether or not you can trust someone.

In a game like this, I'd say trust is more valuable than the removal of a potential enemy. Or at least it is if your cardinal is high.

Of course, some people might not see it that way, in which case killing is indeed a more efficient playstyle.

12 minutes ago, Straw said:

Also, what exactly is revealed when your action is announced?

Under the current setup, pretty much everything. It is revealed that X player took Y action targeting player(s) Z.

Actions that aren't covert have something in common with voting in a regular SE game.

14 minutes ago, Straw said:

It might be good to give the Overt method more clout, given how +1 clout is a minor advantage, since it's not at a threshold (4 clout is needed to kill, so going over wouldn't be that good). It also comes with a pretty severe disadvantage, since people know your offensive actions and can cancel them. It also requires you to put things in one cycle behind, which means you lose a ton of flexibility. I can't really see people using it.

I do think it is a reasonably substantial advantage, considering that overt actions end up having nearly twice the clout of covert actions. You can get more bang for your buck if you're willing to plan ahead and let people see you coming, but there is some element of diminishing returns. I can think of several cases where an overt approach would be pretty useful, but they aren't most cases.

It might be a good idea to increase the flexibility of overt actions, though. I feel there should still be some penalty for canceling an overt action, but maybe it could just be a -1 penalty to the clout of whatever action you decide to take in its place, instead of not being able to take an action. This introduces more IKYK because you can never know for sure if they are actually taking that action or just pretending, which I think is a feature.

Of course, I would be pretty surprised if my best guesses for what all the base "clout" numbers should be all turned out to be correct, and that's something worth watching for if this ever got run, so you may be right about needing to increase the clout of overt actions.

44 minutes ago, Straw said:

I agree that lower Cardinal players should be given some benefit, and giving them more clout seems like a solid solution.

Yeah, I might think about ways I can work that into the rules.

[Straw]

5 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I believe this is fairly realistic. Eliminating a potential threat is generally a lot simpler than determining whether or not you can trust someone.

In a game like this, I'd say trust is more valuable than the removal of a potential enemy. Or at least it is if your cardinal is high.

It might be more valuable in some cases, but I don't think it's that much more valuable.

7 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I do think it is a reasonably substantial advantage, considering that overt actions end up having nearly twice the clout of covert actions. You can get more bang for your buck if you're willing to plan ahead and let people see you coming, but there is some element of diminishing returns. I can think of several cases where an overt approach would be pretty useful, but they aren't most cases.

It might be a good idea to increase the flexibility of overt actions, though. I feel there should still be some penalty for canceling an overt action, but maybe it could just be a -1 penalty to the clout of whatever action you decide to take in its place, instead of not being able to take an action. This introduces more IKYK because you can never know for sure if they are actually taking that action or just pretending, which I think is a feature.

Of course, I would be pretty surprised if my best guesses for what all the base "clout" numbers should be all turned out to be correct, and that's something worth watching for if this ever got run, so you may be right about needing to increase the clout of overt actions.

I think you're missing what I'm saying about thresholds. You seem to be evaluating Overt based on how much clout it gives, rather than evaluating how useful that extra clout is. Consider the following:

-A minimum of four clout is required to kill someone.
-A minimum of seven clout is required to investigate someone.

Having five clout rather than four or three does not seem to be particularly useful for either of these action. For example, if you are attacking someone on your own, you have little reason to be Overt rather than Standard, as +1 clout would not be enough to overcome any defenses they might have. Similarly, if two people are working together to investigate someone, their cheapest option is Covert + Standard. Going above that only offers an advantage if they are both Overt and there is only a single Covert player defending their target.

Essentially, Overt isn't all that good regardless of disadvantage, considering that the thresholds are composed of fours and threes, meaning that a five isn't very useful. Overt only seems to be useful in situations with large teams directly opposing each other, and it isn't very useful even then.

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

30 minutes ago, Straw said:

-A minimum of four clout is required to kill someone.
-A minimum of seven clout is required to investigate someone.

You need an excess of four clout to kill someone and an excess of seven clout to investigate, meaning you need at least five clout to kill and at least eight clout to investigate.

[Straw]

2 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

You need an excess of four clout to kill someone and an excess of seven clout to investigate, meaning you need at least five clout to kill and at least eight clout to investigate.

Okay, in that case Drake's completely correct.

[xinoehp512]

A little while ago I had an idea for a faction game. The main idea would be that each player would potentially be able to be a member of more than one faction, and the game would end when one faction controlled the majority. A bit bare-bones, I know, but... thoughts?

[Elandera]

2 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

A little while ago I had an idea for a faction game. The main idea would be that each player would potentially be able to be a member of more than one faction, and the game would end when one faction controlled the majority. A bit bare-bones, I know, but... thoughts?

There would need to be some kind of balance with the people in more than one faction that keeps them from entirely selling out one faction over the other. You'd also need to make sure each one had the same number of potential traitors, so they don't feel cheated.

[Mat]

Because my LG shouldn't be ran anytime near the AG, today I designed another LG to run once my slot comes up. It's set during tWoK time period. Presenting: Alethi Politics!

The main thing I'm looking for feedback on is the marketplace, particularly the pricing. Any feedback, however, is much appreciated. Thanks!