The Art of Game Creation

[Straw]

So, since I don't know what the secrets are, I'm just going to pretend like there aren't any secrets, and just give advice based on the rules.

Vyre just being survival with a scan is pretty meh. IMO pure survival roles don't tend to be very interesting, since they don't really have any opposition to work against. Their goal is to pretty much just sit around and try not to get too much attention, which is pretty uninteresting. Giving them some kind of target to kill or something would be interesting. At the very least, give them some kind of ability that's a bit more interesting to use.

I feel like it'd be better to not have the Windrunners be confirmed good. Since full lashings are presumably Windrunner-only, it'd be a bit too easy to confirm yourself. Shardblade balancing is going to be tough, since you'll suddenly have a lot of people gaining vigilante abilities.

I assume that the Full Skybreaker and Nale do not actually have access to all of the lashings, since one of the lashings involves Adhesion. Full Skybreakers having a blade is very risky, since it'd mean drastically increasing the kill power of the elim team. They probably need it though, given the Basic Lashings going around, and all the people with Shardplate.

Could I get some more information on how exactly the store works? When do you buy from it? Can you buy multiple items at once? What happens if two players try to buy the same item?

It'd probably be best to set the number of items based on the number of players, rather than putting it in the rules.

Nightblood seems very mediocre if it doesn't even kill its target. If you're going to keep it like that, increase the number of times it can be used and make it so it always hits, even if the target is lashed differently.

I really don't see much point to the Larkins. They serve as a counter to Nightblood, which isn't great given how restricted Nightblood is already. I don't feel like anyone's going to buy them, so you could remove them from the store without any negative effects.

Yelig-nar’s Gemstone really depends on the power of the ten surges, which we don't know since that's secret.

Shardblades and Shardplate are going to go very quickly, since you could easily get enough Stormlight to buy them by the start of N1. 

The knives and blades are also going to go very quickly, and will result in a lot of kill power being added to the game.

The big problem I'm seeing with the items is the Skybreakers rushing it and getting tons of kills. Or they could go and buy out all of the bandages so no one can heal injured villagers. Skybreakers are able to work together to buy stuff, which makes them a lot more powerful.

The PM Stormlight rewards could get out of control very quickly. In some of my games, people have had hundreds of PM responses (looking at you El and Burnt), which would result in them having hundreds of Stormlight charges.

I don't like the reward for lynching/killing a Skybreaker. It feels like it favors the village a bit more than necessary, especially when the Skybreakers have a constant drain on their Stormlight due to Division. It also kind of encourages bussing a bit too much.

As Mint said, the most posts thing is problematic.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Straw

[The Young Pyromancer]

Re:PM's, something we considered for 66 that didn't end up working was if the thing was per pm, the elims could set up a group PM and just spam messages to each other, or because there were PM spies in that game, just spam a bunch of messages one on one.

[|TJ|]

9 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Re:PM's, something we considered for 66 that didn't end up working was if the thing was per pm, the elims could set up a group PM and just spam messages to each other, or because there were PM spies in that game, just spam a bunch of messages one on one.

Lol, the group PM of me, Pyro and Mage had reached 15 pages  

[Ookla-son-son-Ventyl]

5 hours ago, Straw said:

So, since I don't know what the secrets are, I'm just going to pretend like there aren't any secrets, and just give advice based on the rules.

Vyre just being survival with a scan is pretty meh. IMO pure survival roles don't tend to be very interesting, since they don't really have any opposition to work against. Their goal is to pretty much just sit around and try not to get too much attention, which is pretty uninteresting. Giving them some kind of target to kill or something would be interesting. At the very least, give them some kind of ability that's a bit more interesting to use.

I feel like it'd be better to not have the Windrunners be confirmed good. Since full lashings are presumably Windrunner-only, it'd be a bit too easy to confirm yourself. Shardblade balancing is going to be tough, since you'll suddenly have a lot of people gaining vigilante abilities.

I assume that the Full Skybreaker and Nale do not actually have access to all of the lashings, since one of the lashings involves Adhesion. Full Skybreakers having a blade is very risky, since it'd mean drastically increasing the kill power of the elim team. They probably need it though, given the Basic Lashings going around, and all the people with Shardplate.

Could I get some more information on how exactly the store works? When do you buy from it? Can you buy multiple items at once? What happens if two players try to buy the same item?

It'd probably be best to set the number of items based on the number of players, rather than putting it in the rules.

Nightblood seems very mediocre if it doesn't even kill its target. If you're going to keep it like that, increase the number of times it can be used and make it so it always hits, even if the target is lashed differently.

I really don't see much point to the Larkins. They serve as a counter to Nightblood, which isn't great given how restricted Nightblood is already. I don't feel like anyone's going to buy them, so you could remove them from the store without any negative effects.

Yelig-nar’s Gemstone really depends on the power of the ten surges, which we don't know since that's secret.

Shardblades and Shardplate are going to go very quickly, since you could easily get enough Stormlight to buy them by the start of N1. 

The knives and blades are also going to go very quickly, and will result in a lot of kill power being added to the game.

The big problem I'm seeing with the items is the Skybreakers rushing it and getting tons of kills. Or they could go and buy out all of the bandages so no one can heal injured villagers. Skybreakers are able to work together to buy stuff, which makes them a lot more powerful.

The PM Stormlight rewards could get out of control very quickly. In some of my games, people have had hundreds of PM responses (looking at you El and Burnt), which would result in them having hundreds of Stormlight charges.

I don't like the reward for lynching/killing a Skybreaker. It feels like it favors the village a bit more than necessary, especially when the Skybreakers have a constant drain on their Stormlight due to Division. It also kind of encourages bussing a bit too much.

As Mint said, the most posts thing is problematic.

I should probably clarify you buy from the store in the night turn. And yeah, I’ll change the amount of items to the amount of players. Also, I’ll buff Nightblood a little bit to give the Larkins more purpose. When I said it has two uses, I meant for player that gets it. So Nale could use his uses, then if someone kills him I might make it so where you could have a chance of getting it, along with other items. That person uses it twice, and then the theif could possibly steal it. Then someone could kill the theif, and so one. So that’s why I’m a little hesitant to buff Nightblood.

Yelig-nar’s gemstone is extremely OP, but hopefully not broken. Also, I’ll up the cost of the Plate and Blades. Knives and Blades have to have the Basic Lashings line up. Also, I hope to prevent the Skybreakers from buying them all with Kaladin’s discount. I also might make it 1 per person, except that Kaladin could buy maybe like 4 or 5. 

Also for the PMs it’s you only get the Stormlight Charge for one reply, not every reply. After that one reply, you don’t get any more Charges from that PM. 

Regarding the lynch/kill rewards for Skybreakers, I’ll probably get rid of that.

I might make it so they need the post to be 200 words. 

EDIT: 

Alright I’ve updated some of the rules, especially regarding items. I still need to put in that items are bought at night. Also here is the link to the hidden rules. If you think you would want to play this game, then don’t read them. And if you do, I’ll kindly ask you that you don’t play the game when I finally run it. If you have comments about the rules, I have made it so you can make comments in the doc, as I don’t want to spoil the game in here for anyone who might want to play.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/19nGrgreyFNHNd1_bgUg2PsYHIat7LkvMGdLIf3itS74/edit

Edited July 6, 2020 by Ventyl
wrong link!

[Ashbringer]

49 minutes ago, TJ Shade said:

Lol, the group PM of me, Pyro and Mage had reached 15 pages  

What about the one with me?

... I still don’t know what to feel about that. 

[|TJ|]

9 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

What about the one with me?

... I still don’t know what to feel about that. 

Yeah sorry about that xD 

I mean, we were right to be suspicious of you, and make a group without you

I think the one with you had like 5 pages. 

[Ashbringer]

True. I had just thought at the end that I’d convinced everyone Karnage was the Kandra, but turns out I was a lot less inconspicuous than I thought I had been... 

At least you missing Pyro vindicates it somewhat. And you thought I was Elim, not Kandra, if I got that from the Elim doc right

[|TJ|]

9 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

True. I had just thought at the end that I’d convinced everyone Karnage was the Kandra, but turns out I was a lot less inconspicuous than I thought I had been... 

At least you missing Pyro vindicates it somewhat. And you thought I was Elim, not Kandra, if I got that from the Elim doc right

Yeah, in the beginning maybe. But we slowlry started discussing kandra!you possibilities. One of the things that actually worked (not as intented ) is we decided Mage should fake having an extra charge to protect Pyro, in order to dissuade you from killing him. But that ended up persuading you instead xD 

[The Young Pyromancer]

THAT GAME... *siiighhh*

We really should have won that one. 

But I think the shouty shout was way longer. I'll check the length in a bit

[Ashbringer]

Yeah, I fell for that Brute bait hard, but I also thought Pyro wasn’t in any real danger and I wanted to cause some chaos to draw attention away from Mist. And I wanted PMs gone... and I didn’t retract the action in time when I realized Pyro was the spy...

I guess I did do a really good job causing chaos 

[The Young Pyromancer]

Okay, nope, our group PM was longer. However, I think SHOUTY SHOUT AGENCY!!! wins on word count.

[+Lotus]

I’m new around here but I’ve been thinking a lot about game ideas. Does anyone know if their have been any games done in the Wheel of Time world?

[Araris Valerian]

Yeah, the first one was LG6, and I think it's been rerun once (or maybe twice).

[Straw]

LG6, LG22 (rerun of LG6), MR32, and MR41 have all been set in the Wheel of Time world.

[Mat]

I went crazy.

COMPLETLEY CRAZY

And made a Shattering of Adonalsium game: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1016hH-L2DkKsW8o715XGhzxVSaUtX-q7uqYguPAKK7M/edit?usp=sharing

Please view/comment on it, though note it's mostly blackout. There is another link in the doc to a separate doc with all the secret mechanics and everything, and would like some feedback on that to. Because it is 100% broken, nearly guaranteed :P.

Well, anyway, enjoy.

[Ashbringer]

Oh dear.

Spoiler

I'm not looking, but I'm hoping that some of the real Vessels (Tanavast/Leras/Ati/Rayse/Bavadin/Uli Da) show up?

I will say, Hoid's maybe-protect is a little strange. Why not just make it guarunteed?

[Mat]

Just now, Ashbringer said:

Oh dear.

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm not looking, but I'm hoping that some of the real Vessels (Tanavast/Leras/Ati/Rayse/Bavadin/Uli Da) show up?

I will say, Hoid's maybe-protect is a little strange. Why not just make it guarunteed?

'Oh dear' is a very good response to this xD.

>:)

That's me worried about balance. The blackout rules make that make a bit more sense, but can't help you there :P.

[+Lotus]

I keep meaning to make a White Tower game. That’d be fun. Hunting down the black Ajah.

[Straw]

30 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I went crazy.

COMPLETLEY CRAZY

And made a Shattering of Adonalsium game: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1016hH-L2DkKsW8o715XGhzxVSaUtX-q7uqYguPAKK7M/edit?usp=sharing

Please view/comment on it, though note it's mostly blackout. There is another link in the doc to a separate doc with all the secret mechanics and everything, and would like some feedback on that to. Because it is 100% broken, nearly guaranteed :P.

Well, anyway, enjoy.

Some thoughts on the full rules in the spoiler below:

Spoiler

First of all, feedback on the public rules:

• Why have the minimum number of players? I don't see much reason for it. Also, I tend to lean against minimum player count stuff like that, since activity varies a lot.
• You might want to give Hoid more equal options for Day abilities. Moving a vote is usually a lot better than cancelling a vote.
• For Hoid, the 50% chance is a bit odd. Maybe make it an odd night only ability?

Next, the secret rules:

• Why have the Shattering be on D3? There will probably be four players dead by then, with two being. Or really, why have the Shattering not be at the start of the game?
• Will all roles be used?
• You might want to give Hoid some kind of yes/no scan for Odium.
• Dominion's kill being random isn't great. It's not terribly fun to be a Shard and get hit out of nowhere with a random kill.
• With Ruin, maybe change his alignment scan to a Preservation scan? Can Ruin win with others?
• Like I said with Hoid, Endowment's vote move is much more powerful than the vote addition or subtraction.
• I'd recommend giving the Survival Shard extra lives, instead of making it random.
• What's preventing the Unknown Shards from claiming to each other?

Overall, I feel like the Followers are in a lot of trouble. The Shards are claimable and confirmed good, and there are a lot of them. I given all the scans and stuff, I don't think it'll take too long to kill all the followers.

I'd recommend giving the Supporters something to do other than just surviving.

Probably missed some stuff. I'll probably check over the rules again later.

[Mat]

8 minutes ago, Straw said:

Why have the minimum number of players? I don't see much reason for it. Also, I tend to lean against minimum player count stuff like that, since activity varies a lot.

More of a suggestion than anything else. I just don't see the game working with less people, similar to El's game going on now.

13 minutes ago, Straw said:

You might want to give Hoid more equal options for Day abilities. Moving a vote is usually a lot better than cancelling a vote.

What would you suggest?

13 minutes ago, Straw said:

For Hoid, the 50% chance is a bit odd. Maybe make it an odd night only ability?

That was an attempt to balance the protection, but I could make it an odd night only, which would also work.

Now secret:

Spoiler

10 minutes ago, Straw said:

Overall, I feel like the Followers are in a lot of trouble. The Shards are claimable and confirmed good, and there are a lot of them. I given all the scans and stuff, I don't think it'll take too long to kill all the followers.

I... am confused about the Shards being 'confirmed good'. After the Shattering they basically all become their own faction- a lot of them with goals opposite of others-, with the exception of the Unknown Shards. But yeah, that's a problem. It also is why a lot of players is better, because more players=more Followers. Should I add something to the Followers?

15 minutes ago, Straw said:

Will all roles be used?

Yes. The Shard roles will be given as Vessels in the original Gm Pm, and after the Shattering the alive Vessels will Ascend. If Ati dies D2, how the game currently is is that Ruin just won't be a factor later.

17 minutes ago, Straw said:

You might want to give Hoid some kind of yes/no scan for Odium

Didn't think of this, hmm...

17 minutes ago, Straw said:

Dominion's kill being random isn't great. It's not terribly fun to be a Shard and get hit out of nowhere with a random kill.

I talked with someone else in the secret doc, and this did actually get changed.

18 minutes ago, Straw said:

With Ruin, maybe change his alignment scan to a Preservation scan? Can Ruin win with others?

I don't think so, because his win-con is to kill the last follower so he needs a way to determine who that follower is. If Ruin wins the game ends (Or Odium/Ambition, for that matter), and any other Shard who has completed their win-con already also wins, since their win-cons aren't game ending.

20 minutes ago, Straw said:

Like I said with Hoid, Endowment's vote move is much more powerful than the vote addition or subtraction.

Yeah, but I wanted more options. :/

21 minutes ago, Straw said:

I'd recommend giving the Survival Shard extra lives, instead of making it random.

Huh, I recall giving the Survival Shard a passive extra life, but guess not xD. Should I give them 1 or 2?

22 minutes ago, Straw said:

What's preventing the Unknown Shards from claiming to each other?

I mean, technically nothing. But it not being confirmed makes the game more interesting :P.

23 minutes ago, Straw said:

I'd recommend giving the Supporters something to do other than just surviving.

Good idea. Should they also need to eliminate the Followers, or is that overkill? :P.

 

[|TJ|]

On 7/30/2020 at 4:03 AM, Lotus said:

I keep meaning to make a White Tower game. That’d be fun. Hunting down the black Ajah.

May I interest you in one? Here's a re-flavored, heavily remodeled re-run of QF22.

[Kynedath]

I'm not a master of balancing games, but I do have a couple questions/comments/queries/concerns/conundrums/quibbles/counterpoints.

1) you say in the faction descriptions that every Aes Sedai is bonded and then don't really explain further until the bonded section. Maybe that could be altered in a way that kind of explains bonding better, or maybe doesn't mention bonding at all? Or even if you moved the bonded section of rules to right after that it would be clearer.

2) Your faction descriptions say "you are bonded to another player" which insinuates that each player is bonded to one warder. But then in the bonded section you say that any given Aes Sedai may or may not be bonded to none or multiple warders. Which is it?

3) The colors you used for the black ajah are somewhat difficult to read. The red on black strains my eyes. Perhaps try a different color. I know a lot of them are taken up by the ajahs, but what about purple? It's normally a serial killer color but it could work in theory. Alternatively maybe the red ajah could be changed to a color that isn't typically used for the elim faction, burgundy, more of an orange, something like that. I don't know, I might be being a bit picky, I understood the point and the different factions/abilities, so if you got the point across it might not have to be changed.

4) The sentence "White Ajah are not told of the partner of the pair if one of them is dead." Is confusing and awkward and I'm not entirely sure what it even means.

[+Lotus]

2 hours ago, TJ Shade said:

May I interest you in one? Here's a re-flavored, heavily remodeled re-run of QF22.

This is quite similar to what I had in mind, although also with some major differences...

one thing I always thought would be fun is you know how the black Ajah don’t know everyone in their team. So if every black sister only knew two others. They could figure it out, of course, eventually, but not having that communication, that’d be fun.

Ive also thought it could be cool I’d each Ajah has a PM or a doc they have access to, but of course that would make the Warder mechanics in that pointless.

Also, another storyline that could be similar would be the Aes Sedai stuck in the tower with Elaida trying to hunt down the Black Ajah, I love that part.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Lotus

[|TJ|]

Hi, Kynedath! Thanks for the feedback.

23 minutes ago, Kynedath said:

1) you say in the faction descriptions that every Aes Sedai is bonded and then don't really explain further until the bonded section. Maybe that could be altered in a way that kind of explains bonding better, or maybe doesn't mention bonding at all? Or even if you moved the bonded section of rules to right after that it would be clearer.

Done. Moved the Bond Mechanics right after it is mentioned. 

23 minutes ago, Kynedath said:

2) Your faction descriptions say "you are bonded to another player" which insinuates that each player is bonded to one warder. But then in the bonded section you say that any given Aes Sedai may or may not be bonded to none or multiple warders. Which is it?

Most of them will be bonded. Some of them might not be bonded, or bonded to 2 Warders. Changed the faction description to say " you are possibly bonded to another player".

28 minutes ago, Kynedath said:

3) The colors you used for the black ajah are somewhat difficult to read. The red on black strains my eyes. Perhaps try a different color. I know a lot of them are taken up by the ajahs, but what about purple? It's normally a serial killer color but it could work in theory. Alternatively maybe the red ajah could be changed to a color that isn't typically used for the elim faction, burgundy, more of an orange, something like that. I don't know, I might be being a bit picky, I understood the point and the different factions/abilities, so if you got the point across it might not have to be changed.

Done. I changed Black Ajah to a deeper shade of purple. 

28 minutes ago, Kynedath said:

4) The sentence "White Ajah are not told of the partner of the pair if one of them is dead." Is confusing and awkward and I'm not entirely sure what it even means.

Well, basically their action fails if their target's partner is dead. But yeah, I worded it weirdly. Changed and moved the sentence under White Ajah. 

Thanks! 

19 minutes ago, Lotus said:

This is quite similar to what I had in mind, although also with some major differences...

one thing I always thought would be fun is you know how the black Ajah don’t know everyone in their team. So if every black sister only knew two others. They could figure it out, of course, eventually, but not having that communication, that’d be fun.

Ive also thought it could be cool I’d each Ajah has a PM or a doc they have access to, but of course that would make the Warder mechanics in that pointless.

Also, another storyline that could be similar would be the Aes Sedai stuck in the tower with Elaida trying to hunt down the Black Ajah, I love that part.

Hmm, yes, what you have in mind is fundamentally different, I feel. I already have a game with limited info elim teams (here), so I didn't want to repeat that. And yes, each Ajah with a doc would work very well for a faction game. I'm actually interested to see your version! Games around Aes Sedai would be very interesting. 

[+Lotus]

On 8/1/2020 at 7:35 AM, TJ Shade said:

Hmm, yes, what you have in mind is fundamentally different, I feel. I already have a game with limited info elim teams (here), so I didn't want to repeat that. And yes, each Ajah with a doc would work very well for a faction game. I'm actually interested to see your version! Games around Aes Sedai would be very interesting. 

I don’t have class today, so I should be able to do a basic write-up of my ideas.

@TJ Shade

Black Ajah in the Tower

It's far from complete, but this was my basic idea.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Lotus