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Okay, I kind of forgot about Zillah's game, and never ended up really looking at it. :unsure: So, here are my thoughts on it:

In general:

First of all, I assume that this game is either a mid-range or a long game? I'd personally recommend making it a long game, but that's just my preference, and it could probably work as a complex mid-range.

Looking at the factions, there isn't really any information about them other than some nice flavor. Given the colors, I'll just assume that they're standard village and elim factions with the elims having a doc and a kill.

Passion tables:

-I'm glad that the illegal table has consequences. I was worried that the elims could just repeatedly choose that table and hope for an extra kill.

-As far as I can tell, safety is focused around beneficial actions, illegal stuff is focused around negative actions, and politicking is a mix of both.

-I feel like the most intelligent move for the village would to just have everyone choose politicking. Assuming everyone who gets the passion of passions chooses research, around 30% of the village would get a scan every cycle. Additionally, this advantage grows when you consider the passion of planning, as this would allow a player to have two chances at getting passion/research. Combined with the fact that no one has a role, and is therefore free to release any results, the eliminators are pretty much doomed.

-Assuming you nerf the above strategy, there's also an issue with the safety table. By employing a similar method to the one I described above, you could get a large number of villagers with action scans and protects. By using these, you can get a pretty high chance of either blocking the elim kill or finding a possible suspect to lynch. Players who rolled survival could redirect to protected players, which would waste the elim kill.

It's almost past midnight, so I'll go sleep and maybe post some more thoughts later.

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16 minutes ago, Straw said:

-I feel like the most intelligent move for the village would to just have everyone choose politicking. Assuming everyone who gets the passion of passions chooses research, around 30% of the village would get a scan every cycle. Additionally, this advantage grows when you consider the passion of planning, as this would allow a player to have two chances at getting passion/research. Combined with the fact that no one has a role, and is therefore free to release any results, the eliminators are pretty much doomed.

Thats a very fair point, a couple edits I have in mind are as follows:

-The passion of passions excludes one thing on each table, for the politicking table maybe change it from logic to research

-change logic from ‘move a vote’ to ‘you get two votes’ 

-Switch passion of research to 10% and logic to 15%

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  • 1 month later...

@BrightnessRadiant game related discussion is difficult to quantify. In my opinion, it’s better to go with a definite thing, both for GM sanity and so players can keep track. I’ve seen someone (DrakeMarshall in QF30 I believe) used a vote based inactivity filter. As Elandera said, a word count filter could work. As my rule in LG64, I did a PM based inactivity filter, but PMs were also tied with action targets and stuff. If your game has any special mechanics, you could also make players use those mechanics as an inactivity filter (the KKC games are an example of this).

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2 hours ago, Straw said:

@BrightnessRadiant game related discussion is difficult to quantify. In my opinion, it’s better to go with a definite thing, both for GM sanity and so players can keep track. I’ve seen someone (DrakeMarshall in QF30 I believe) used a vote based inactivity filter. As Elandera said, a word count filter could work. As my rule in LG64, I did a PM based inactivity filter, but PMs were also tied with action targets and stuff. If your game has any special mechanics, you could also make players use those mechanics as an inactivity filter (the KKC games are an example of this).

Yeah I couldn't remember which thread to post this in. Thanks!

Yeah in my Reckoners game I made it where you got points to spend on the black market for a certain amount of game related posts + rp posts. But I feel like there should be something else that keeps the players from being in the game and not posting a single thought or vote. I really like the vote filter. That's a good one I might use. Because it gives stuff to analyze at least if you don't say anything else.

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I've been working on a game idea for a while now, I was looking to get some feedback on it. It's an LG set on Sel, in Arelon right after the Reod.

Here is the link to the doc. I'm also including the rules here.


 

Reforging Arelon

 

You play as members of the merchant guild of Kae (the capital of Arelon) directly after the Reod. Since the elantrians fell, there is a very very loose ruling structure that could collapse at any time. The new laws and policies are still being put into place, and as they form the game itself will change. When certain conditions are met, rules will be added, removed, or changed.

 

There are those among you who think that Arelon has outstayed its welcome and that the people or Arelon would be better off integrating with Fjorden; it is the job of the loyal merchants to root them out and remove them from power - and remove them from life. The guillotines will be busy. In this volatile state of change, will the merchant guild be able to reforge Arelon into a great nation once more?

Factions:

Spoiler
  • Loyal merchants:

    • You win when all the Fjorden Sympathisers are dead

 

  • Fjorden Sympathisers:

    • You win when you outnumber or tie the number of Loyal Merchants, and the Dakhor Monk Spy is dead

    • You have a doc to conspire in as per normal

    • You have a faction kill action as per normal

 

  • Dakhor Monk Spy:

    • There is only one of you, and you won’t have a role outside of Dakhor Monk Spy

    • If you are alive when the Fjorden Sympathisers outnumber the Loyal Merchants, then you win instead of the Fjorden Sympathisers

    • If all the Fjorden Sympathisers die, you lose

    • You can survive one attack

    • If you are the only player to vote on the player you are voting for, you unlock an extra secondary action that you can use to roleblock a player or protect a player other than yourself from an attack

      • This extra action is available for that turn only

Cycles:

Spoiler
  • 48 hour day turn

    • Voting for the lynch

    • You’ll get your income from last cycle at the beginning of the day turn

 

  • 24 hour night turn

    • Actions

Roles:

Spoiler
  • King Iadon

    • As an action you can swap the roles (not alignments) of two players

    • There will only be one of this role

    • If King Iadon is removed from the game the Executive Secretary can no longer use their ability

    • If King Iadon is lynched at any point, the Item Market and the Contract Market will be closed for one cycle

 

  • Adjudicator

    • As an action you can target one player other than yourself. During the next day turn, that player will be immune to the lynch.

    • If the Adjudicator is killed by an attack then the lynch must have 50% or greater of players voting for a lynch to occur 

 

  • Executive Secretary

    • As an action you can target a player and learn either which action they took OR who they targeted

    • After the first cycle you can learn which action they took and who they targeted

    • After the third cycle you can learn either which action they took and who they targeted OR what role they have

    • After the fifth cycle you can learn either which action they took and who they targeted and what role they have OR what alignment they are

    • After the seventh cycle you can learn all of those things.

      • If there are tons of players these numbers might be made higher, official numbers for the game will be announced cycle 1

    • If at any point King Iadon is removed from the game, you can no longer scan anyone.

 

  • Socialite

    • Once PMs are opened (see the PM section of the rules) you can have two additional PMs open and active

    • You can use your action to open two PMs instead of just one.

    • You can use your action to send an anonymous message to up to two players

    • If there were votes on 4 separate players during any given day turn when PMs are open, Socialites can create group PMs instead of one-on-one PMs

    • If there are no longer any socialites alive in the game then PMs can only be used during the day turns, not the night turns

 

  • Actor

    • As an action you may target a player, any action targeting that player will target you, and any action targeting you will target that player instead

      • A scan will read who the action actually targeted, not who the player using that action targeted

    • If the Actor is targeted with an action, the player who targeted them will not receive any income for that cycle

      • If the Actor is targeted but they trade places with another player so that the action ends up targeting the other player, this clause is not triggered

 

  • Trademaster

    • You get a 10% discount on the Item Market

    • After you buy an item you get a further 5% bonus discount, this is cumulative but caps at 35%

    • Whenever a Trademaster dies the prices at the Item Market raise by 10%

 

  • Kingpin

    • You get a 10% discount on the Contract Market

    • After you buy a contract you get a further 5% bonus discount, this is cumulative but caps at 35%

    • Whenever a Kingpin dies the prices at the Contract Market raise by 10%

 

  • Burglar

    • As an action you can target a player and if they have any items you steal the items

    • If at any time you have four or more items in your possession you unlock the ability to target two people with your burglary action

Lynch:

Spoiler
  • Start of Game Lynch Rules

    • No vote minimum

    • Kills player

    • Ties result in RNG lynch

 

  • Alterations to Lynch Rules

    • State of emergency - 33% of players dead

      • 2 vote minimum

    • Martial Law - 67% of players dead

      • Majority vote needed to lynch

    • Anarchy in Court - If an Adjudicator dies to an attack

      • 50% or more of all living players must vote for the lynch to occur

Actions:

Spoiler
  • Each player has one action they can use to do any of the following:

    • Use a role ability

    • Increase your income for this cycle by 50%

      • Ex. If your income is 10 then after using this action the income you get will be 15.

    • Buy something from the item market (explained more later)

    • Buy something from the contract market (explained more later)

    • Create a PM (only if the necessary conditions have been met, see the PMs section of the rules)

 

  • Once 50% or more of players are dead, everyone gets an extra action, although you cannot use this additional action for the same thing as your other action

The Dakhor Monk Spy still gets their secondary action in addition to these two actions

PMs:

Spoiler
  • Start of Game PM Rules

    • PMs are closed

 

  • Alterations to PM rules

    • Conference - There is a majority vote

      • PMs are unlocked

      • You may create a maximum of two PMs

      • PMs can only be made between two players (for the exception see the Socialite role)

      • Making a PM takes an action

      • Tell the GM whom you would like to open a PM with and that PM will be made for you the following day turn. Please do not make your own PMs

      • If a player with whom you had a PM dies then that PM does not count against your total number of PMs

    • Assembly - If Conference has been unlocked and there is no lynch

      • There is no limit to the number of PMs you can create for the rest of the game

  • If at any point there are no socialites alive in the game PMs can only be used during the day turns, not the night turns

Currency:

Spoiler
  • The currency in Arelon is the Deo, after Aon Deo meaning gold or metal

  • Every cycle players will receive 20 Deo as income from their business ventures

  • Players must post at least one game related post throughout the cycle to get their income from that cycle.

    • If there are extraneous circumstances come talk to the GMs

Item Market:

Spoiler
  • The following items are for sale:

    • Noble Insignia - remove one vote from yourself

      • 22 Deo

    • Trade Rights - your vote counts as two votes

      • 22 Deo

    • Embargo - roleblock one player

      • 35 Deo

    • Personal Messenger - Send a message to another player (no more than 50 words) which they can respond to once

      • 15 Deo

      • You will send the message in your GM PM and it will be forwarded to the player through their GM PM

      • If the player you message doesn’t reply within the turn you send the message or the turn subsequent, they can no longer reply at all

 

  • Items bought from the Item Market are not used when you buy them. They are instead in your possession until you choose to use them during a later turn

    • You are able to use the vote manipulation items during day turns

  • Items do not take an action to use

  • If you are roleblocked then you did not buy the item, you will not lose any money either

  • Items can be given to other players without using an action, however the player who receives it cannot use that item that cycle

  • Whenever a Trademaster Dies the prices at the Item Market will raise by 10%

  • If you die with items in your possession the items are taken by authorities (essentially destroyed)

Contract Market:

Spoiler
  • The following contracts are for sale:

    • Murder - Kill a player

      • 100 Deo

    • Surveillance - Learn a players alignment

      • 65 Deo

    • Mercenary Bodyguard - Protect a player of your choice, yourself included

      • 65 Deo

    • Identity theft - Steal the role of another player

      • 79 Deo

      • There will only be one contract of this kind in the game, once it has been purchased once nobody else can purchase it

      • If two players try to purchase it in the same turn the first player to submit the action will receive it

 

  • Contracts bought from the Contract Market are not like items, they do not stay with you. You buy a contract and it is carried out that same turn

  • Contracts are illegal business, so if you buy a contract there is a ⅓ chance that you will be detained and be unable to vote next turn.

    • Detainments will be made public, but not which contract you bought

    • If you are detained the contract will still go through

  • Instead of risking being detained, you can pay an additional 50% of the price of what you are buying to buy off any guards that walk by

  • If you are roleblocked then you are stopped from buying anything at all, you will not lose money, you will not have a chance at getting detained, and the contract will not be carried out

  • Whenever a Kingpin dies the prices at the Contract Market increase by 10%

Order of Actions

Spoiler

Order of Action Daytime

  • Embargo

  • Noble Insignia / Trade Rights / Personal Messenger

  • Lynch

 

Order of Action Nighttime

  • Dakhor Monk Spy Roleblock 

  • Embargo

  • Actor Place Swap

  • Executive Secretary Scan / Socialite Anonymous Message / Surveillance Contract / Increase income by 50% / Buy item / PM creation / Personal Messenger / Adjudicators Lynch Protection

  • Burglars thievery

  • Dakhor Monk Spy Protection / Mercenary bodyguard

  • Murder Contract

  • King Iadon’s Role Swap

  • Identity Swap

  • Elim Kill

 

Edited by Kynedath
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@Kynedath, I keep meaning to check this. I don't have time right now, but could you ping me if I haven't responded by tonight? 

EDIT: I did have time for a brief skim, so I'll add a few notes really quickly. 

On 5/16/2020 at 9:15 PM, Kynedath said:

Murder - Kill a player

  • 100 Deo

Does this give someone the ability to kill a player? Or would they have to have a kill ability in order to fulfill the contract? 

The restrictive lynch is also somewhat concerning, as it really inhibits the village ability to do anything late in the game. Since there don't seem to be any village kill roles (outside of the potential of a Murder contract), they would just be systematically slaughtered by the elims with no reliable ability to stop them. 

Edited by Elandera
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On 5/17/2020 at 0:15 AM, Kynedath said:
  • King Iadon

    • As an action you can swap the roles (not alignments) of two players

    • There will only be one of this role

    • If King Iadon is removed from the game the Executive Secretary can no longer use their ability

    • If King Iadon is lynched at any point, the Item Market and the Contract Market will be closed for one cycle

Does the Dakhor Monk Spy count as a role in addition to being an alignment?

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4 hours ago, Elandera said:

Does this give someone the ability to kill a player? Or would they have to have a kill ability in order to fulfill the contract?

You do not have to be able to kill someone to fulfil the contract. It's like hiring an assassin, anyone can buy it and kill a player

4 hours ago, Elandera said:

The restrictive lynch is also somewhat concerning, as it really inhibits the village ability to do anything late in the game. Since there don't seem to be any village kill roles (outside of the potential of a Murder contract), they would just be systematically slaughtered by the elims with no reliable ability to stop them.

That's really fair actually. My reasoning was that since there are a couple ways to scan people that it should balance out, but even then there would be a difficulty doing anything about it. Plus with the vote manip it gives even more power to the elims. Would you suggest loosening the restrictions on the lynch or adding a village kill role? I'm partial to the latter as I feel like the lynch rules are at the core of this game.

3 hours ago, Straw said:

Does the Dakhor Monk Spy count as a role in addition to being an alignment?

I didn't want them to come up in scans which is why I made it an alignment without specifying that it was not technically a role. And I don't want King Iadon to be able to switch their role either. So no, it does not count as a role i addition to an alignment. I can make the following change to clarify the matter: change "you have no role other than Dakhor Monk Spy" to "Dakhor Monk is not a role, although being of this alignment does give you the abilities mentioned here".

Another thing I think I should add is specifically say that there is a vanilla role with no actions tied to it. I don't plan on making this a role madness game. So that will go in the next iteration.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/19/2020 at 9:58 AM, Kynedath said:

You do not have to be able to kill someone to fulfil the contract. It's like hiring an assassin, anyone can buy it and kill a player

Got it, then it should be fine.

On 5/19/2020 at 9:58 AM, Kynedath said:

Would you suggest loosening the restrictions on the lynch or adding a village kill role? I'm partial to the latter as I feel like the lynch rules are at the core of this game.

 I'd also suggest a village kill role. The lynch rules are interesting and I'd like to see them in play, but you would need to give a little more ability to the village to act in the late game. It wouldn't be out of place to have up to two village kill roles (depending on player count) that have a limited number of kills. That plus the contract to kill would be enough to balance the restricting lynch.

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Alright, then a kill role I shall add. I can't just make it a normal kill role though, so I'll add a bit of flair. Maybe they can kill every second turn, but once 50% of players have been killed they only get one or to more kills the whole game?

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25 minutes ago, Kynedath said:

Alright, then a kill role I shall add. I can't just make it a normal kill role though, so I'll add a bit of flair. Maybe they can kill every second turn, but once 50% of players have been killed they only get one or to more kills the whole game?

Yeah, my suggestion was just to keep them from being able to kill freely every turn.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So i am interested in hosting a game...

I have a few ideas, although it most likely needs balancing.

factions:

Bridgeboys

about four? most likely four bodyguards. vote who to protect and have a doc.

if there are 4 bridgeboys, one protect vote means 25% chance of surviving a kill. these votes stack.

E.G

random1 votes to protect random, random has a 25% chance of surviving a kill directed at them.

if random1 and random2 vote to protect random, random has a 50% chance of surviving a kill directed at them.

if random1 and random2 vote to protect random, and random3 and random4 vote random2:

random has a 50% chance of surviving a kill directed at them and random2 will have 50% chance of surviving a kill directed at them.

 

looses and wins along with the royal entourage.

An... interesting position.

#stormmoash will hate or love this game. depends on if moash dies or not...

has access to both docs(elim and bridgeboy)

is both one of those 4 bridgeboys, and one of the 5 lets kill the king!

wins along with lets kill the king.

ALSO looses if all bridgeboys(moash himself doesnt count for this matter) die.

needs to keep bridgeboys alive while helping the elims win.

The Royal Entourage

needs to kill all lets kill the king.

looses if Dalinar dies.

looses if the lets kill the king outnumber them.

Lets kill the king!

five players? including moash

get an elim doc.

they vote which player to attack.

the player with most votes wins!(a free death.)

looses if Dalinar dies.

looses if all lets kill the king(including moash) are dead.

wins when it outnumbers the village.

roles:

Moash can vote to protect one person with the bridgeboys.

can not vote to kill with the elims.

Adolin can visit one person of their choosing.:ph34r: what do they do is up to the imagination.

if the person adolin visited is lets kill the king adolin dies.

this does NOT include Moash.

Renarin can see if someone is lets kill the king or not. (moash will appear as not lets kill the king.)

Kaladin is just like the other bridgeboys, but can survive one lynch or kill.

Once in the game they can take matters into their own hands...

and kill one player.

after that they die.

Dalinar

i dont know weather this role should have abilities.

no one wants to lynch or kill this role.

so they are kind of overpowered.

claim first cycle and you will be invulnerable

 

 

so this is it.

please tell me how to make it better

i would really love to host this.

I think i will need an IM right?

perhaps a co-host cause i will struggle to keep up with everything.

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Uh could you do some formatting for that?

I think this is correct:

Factions:

Spoiler

Royal Entourage: The normal village. Wins if all Traitors are dead. Loses if Dalinar dies.

Bridgemen: Each Bridgeman can target someone else, giving them a 25% chance of surviving any attack directed at them. This chance stacks. The Bridgemen have a doc to communicate and have the same goals as the Royal Entourage.

Traitor Bridgemen: They are in both the Traitor doc and the Bridgemen doc. The Traitor Bridgemen have the Bridgemen's protection ability but do not get to vote for the Traitor kill. Has the same goals as the Traitors, but has the additional goal of making sure that at least one Bridgeman survives the game.

Traitors: The normal eliminators. They have a factional kill each night (decided via vote) and a doc to communicate in. Wins if they outnumber the Royal Entourage. Loses if Dalinar dies.

Roles:

Spoiler

Adolin: Can visit one person each night. If the person they visit is a Traitor, they die.

Renarin: Can scan one person each night, finding out if they are a Traitor.

Dalinar: No abilities.

Kaladin: Can survive one lynch/kill. Once per game, they can sacrifice themself to kill someone.

I'll give some balance thoughts soon, I just need to read through everything again.

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The first main issue is Dalinar. Dalinar is a confirmed good role that no one wants to kill. As you said, Dalinar can claim right away and then lead the village as a confirmed good. If multiple people claim Dalinar, they can be cleared with Renarin or Adolin. Another issue I see with Dalinar is if the elims are about to lose, they can threaten to kill him, since they'd lose either way. All in all, I don't see much reason for people to lose if Dalinar dies. If you want Dalinar to be unkillable, just make him unkillable.

Another major issue is the threat of a mass claim. Adolin, Renarin, Dalinar, and Kaladin can all claim right away, as they are unique roles that are confirmed good. The the bridgemen can also all claim, since they all know each other. This massively reduces the pool of possible elims. For example, let's say there are 20 players, with four bridgemen and five traitors. A mass claim would leave a pool of 13 players with four elims in it. There would also be four confirmed good players, and three bridgemen with one traitor among them. Adolin and Renarin would be outed to the thread, so the village could work together to clear three people in the pool each cycle (lynch and two scans). The traitors can try to kill Adolin or Renarin, but will run into the issue of bridgemen protection. To avoid the traitor bridgeman revealing the protection target, the three good bridgemen would likely want to choose randomly between Adolin and Renarin. This means that the eliminators would have to risk wasting a kill in order to kill one of the scanners. Once the pool of 13 is cleared, there would be a maximum of three bridgemen to clear.

I'll think a bit more on what you could do to balance this, and I'm sure others will have ideas, but I would recommend having some kind of mechanic that punishes people for claiming. As I said before, I would also recommend changing Dalinar, probably by removing him from the game. Unkillable players who are confirmed good are not particularly interesting or fun to play with. It'd also be nice to give the traitor bridgemen the ability to vote for the traitor kill. That way, if all the true traitors die, they have a better chance of winning.

Questions:

If Adolin is protected by four bridgemen and he visits a traitor, does he still die? Does this also apply to Kaladin? If Kaladin kills someone before using his extra life, does he still die?

Are PMs open or closed?

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30 minutes ago, little wilson said:

Doesn't really make much flavor sense for the Traitors to want to keep Dalinar alive? That could fix the problems with Dalinar claiming to the thread and then controlling the game.

In Words of Radiance, I believe the traitors wanted to put Dalinar on the throne? I assume the traitors are Graves' group?

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4 minutes ago, Straw said:

In Words of Radiance, I believe the traitors wanted to put Dalinar on the throne? I assume the traitors are Graves' group?

You could probably solve the Dalinar thing by adding Elhokar to the game and giving them the role that Dalinar currently has.

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24 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

You could probably solve the Dalinar thing by adding Elhokar to the game and giving them the role that Dalinar currently has.

Uh... the traitors want to kill Elhokar. Why would that fix it?

Edited by Straw
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20 minutes ago, Straw said:

Uh... the traitors want to kill Elhokar. Why would that fix it?

Make it so that Elhokar wouldn't be able to mayor. Not sure what role to give Dalinar in that version though. 

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Thanks for all the ideas.

Yes, i was thinking about adding

the one in white

szeth-son-son-vallano wants to kill dalinar.

has a kill used every cycle.

(adolin dies if he visits szeth.)

and yes, grave's people want to kill Elokhar so dalinar takes the throne.

I was thinking perhaps one PM per cycle?

perhaps remove kaladin.

also the bodyguard protects dont work for when adolin visits someone.

also, if the one in white or the elims target adolin when he visits someone, the kill doesnt work.

plus, if adolin visits the target of a kill, he dies or is protected along with the target.

 

Oh, and perhaps add something like...

Jasnah

wins along with the villagers, but only if renarin is dead.

can target any player, if the player targeted is renarin, he dies. if the player targeted is not renarin, that person is notified.

and

one of Adolin's girlfriends

wins along with the elims, but only if adolin is dead.

if they vote to kill someone and that player is adolin, adolin dies.(even if all other elims voted someone else)

 

 

thanks again for all the ideas!

and for the formatting, it is perfect.

 

tell me what do you think about the one in white.

oh and...

the cycles last 48 hours, ending and starting midday UTC.

one PM

Edited by Lord_Silberfarben
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If you add Szeth, the main issue would be if he got lucky and hit Dalinar early, instantly winning the game. To fix this I would recommend buffing bridgemen, maybe to 50% each. If that sounds OP, you could make the bridgeman protection all or nothing where if two bridgemen target someone, they defend against all attacks, but if only one bridgemen protects them, all attacks hit. These two changes would essentially make it so Szeth's win condition would be to kill all but one of the bridgemen and then attack Dalinar. This adds opposition to Moash's goal of keeping the bridgemen alive, and discourages the bridgemen from claiming. It also gives the traitors a choice between keeping bridgemen alive and taking the risk that their attack will be blocked vs killing bridgemen and bringing the game closer to a win for Szeth.

Also, on the topic of Dalinar, I'd recommend making Dalinar an outed NPC who doesn't count for parity. Being confirmed good and unkillable isn't particularly interesting to play, and he works better as a NPC. I think past games have done similar things (Ex: Elend Venture in LG41). It also helps prevent mayoring from Dalinar, especially since if he could talk, Renarin and Adolin could just PM him with results.

I'm not sure about how balanced it is to have Adolin be able to dodge kills while visiting someone. It basically removes any consequences to him outing himself in the thread. All it does is it stops him from saying who he is going to visit, and not much else.

By one PM per cycle, do you mean one PM channel with unlimited talking? Or do you mean one PM message, like MR42 has?

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