The Art of Game Creation

[Straw]

1 hour ago, EXPERIENCE said:

So I've been making a game I would like to GM, but I really haven't played this for that long and I don't know if everything is balanced. I would just post it into this thread, but it's a blackout game, so I'm not sure what to do. 

It doesn't look like you're on the list of upcoming GMs, so you might want to ask someone to add you.

Also, I would not recommend running a blackout as your first game, as they tend to be more difficult to balance.

[Experience]

Yes. I am thinking of possibly just making it non blackout.  

[Experience]

Ok. I changed a few thing around. Here it is:

 

First of the Sun MR:

You are a group of adventurers on Patji who have traitors in your midst. The Traitorous Trappers need to equal the number of Trappers to win. The Trappers need to eliminate all of the Traitorous Trappers to win. 

Aviar(Roles):

Killer: You know that the only way to eliminate the traitors is to take matters into your own hands. Your Aviar gives you the strength to kill. (Each night you can kill one person).[Activates Traps]

Healer: Your Aviar gives you the knowledge to heal all but the most deadly of wounds. (each night you can protect one person from death. You cannot protect yourself two nights in a row. If someone is attacked by a Nightmaw, then your protection fails.)

Spy: Your Aviar gifts you with stealthiness letting you spy on the other Trappers. (Each night, you can check one person's alignment)[Activates Traps]

Good-looking: Your Aviar looks amazing and gives you the gift to look good as well.(If you are spied on, then you will appear as a Trapper. If your Aviar is spied on, then they appear as a Hidden Aviar)

Hidden: Your Aviar hides your mind from predators. (If the Nightmaw attacks you, you don’t die)

Messenger Your Aviar allows you to speak in somebody's mind for a short period of time. (During the night you can set up one PM with one other player. Must include GM(s). After night ends, you are not allowed to talk in the PM anymore)[Activates Traps]

Aviar Killer You know that without their Aviar, the traitors will be greatly weakened. Your Aviar gives you the ability to trap Aviar(Each night you can choose to kill one players Aviar)[Activates Traps]

Aviar Spy Your Aviar gives you the power to know other Aviar’s gifts. (Each night you can choose one person and you learn their Aviar's power)[Activates Traps]

Experience:

Supreme - 5%

Master - 9%

Apprentice - 13%

Amatuer - 17%

Events:

• Nightmaw attacks(The nights when 25%(rounded down) and 50%(rounded down) of the starting number of players have died, a Nightmaw attacks 1 random person). 

• Traps(If a person uses an Aviar power that Activates Traps then the percent of their experience is used. Whatever the percent is, whenever you encounter a trap you have that percent chance of dying.) Healers can protect you from traps. Each time that you encounter a trap and survive, you become more experienced and your experience percent decreases by 1(to a minimum of 1). 

 

Order of actions:

Traps

Aviar Spy & spy

Heal

Maf kill & town kill & aviar kill & nightmaw attack

Messenger

Other Things:

• A tie lynch vote is randomly chosen
• No PM's allowed except with the messenger
• Players submit their role actions through their GM PM.
• Traps are something that are there at the beginning of the game. You don't place them. Whenever you use an action that encounters a trap, or a maf attacks, then you have your experience percent chance of dying.  

Edited March 28, 2020 by EXPERIENCE
Changes nightmaws, order of actions, experience, making spies and healers not faction specific roles

[Straw]

Is there any way to change experience? Also, those experience levels seem really close to each other. Maybe consider having a more noticeable gap?

Also, I don't feel like the Nightmaw attack being completely random is very fair. If it's a close game, that one kill could make the difference between a win and a loss. Maybe connect them to the traps somehow?

[Experience]

16 minutes ago, Straw said:

Is there any way to change experience? Also, those experience levels seem really close to each other. Maybe consider having a more noticeable gap?

Also, I don't feel like the Nightmaw attack being completely random is very fair. If it's a close game, that one kill could make the difference between a win and a loss. Maybe connect them to the traps somehow?

So, at the moment experience doesn't change. I can make them more spread out though.

I will edit in the changes. What do you think the nightmaw attack should be connected to? If it's connected to traps, then the Aviar that hides you is kinda useless.

Edited March 27, 2020 by EXPERIENCE
grammer

[Experience]

I changed the Nightmaws to only attack at 25% and 50% of players, so that it won't effect the late game as much. I also made it so that experience can change.

Edited March 27, 2020 by EXPERIENCE

[Elbereth]

Ooh, ooh, a First of the Sun game! Fantastic! 

8 hours ago, EXPERIENCE said:

Killer: You know that the only way to eliminate the traitors is to take matters into your own hands. Your Aviar gives you the strength to kill. (Each night you can kill one person).[Activates Traps]

Healer: Your Aviar gives you the knowledge to heal all but the most deadly of wounds. (each night you can protect one person from death. You cannot protect yourself two nights in a row. If someone is attacked by a Nightmaw, then your protection fails.)

Spy: Your Aviar gifts you with stealthiness letting you spy on the other Trappers. (Each night, you can check one person's alignment)[Activates Traps]

I'm going to assume that the green color of these roles means they're always villagers. This is generally not ideal. 

Scenario: I'm a killer. I'm going to take a gamble and assume there's at least one healer in the game. Therefore, I claim in thread the first cycle, asking to be protected. This makes me an effectively guaranteed villager, since I can say "X will be killed" and then that happens. Because the healer can protect me every cycle, the eliminators can't kill me despite me being a significant threat to them (probably. Not all kill roles are equally successful), and meanwhile because I'm a confirmed villager everyone trusts and listens to me. Especially if I'm a player known to be "experienced" or "good" or whatever y'all are calling it nowadays. This is frustrating to the elims, and the village plays follow-the-leader instead of doing their own analysis. 

Scenario: I'm an Aviar Spy. Despite being a role-scanner, if I scan any of these three roles I can be absolutely certain they're good. The lack of PMs being open helps, significantly, in that there isn't an instant trust circle. But if I'm in contact with a PM person, I can indirectly tell any healer I scan to protect X other good role. Or tell a killer not to kill X other people because they're healers or spies. Etc. It makes the village much, much more accurate - and unlike the Spy, my role is verifiable. Elims can mimic alignment scanners fine, role scanners not so much. And that's even more helpful than a Spy, since I can't be fooled by Good-Looking Aviar. 

Basically, what I'm saying is: I know it makes sense for these three roles to all be village. And sure, you probably won't give the elims a kill. But you could absolutely give them a healer or spy just to trip up an Aviar Spy, for instance - and even if you don't it's always a possibility. But any roles which are confirmed to be a specific faction have historically not been great for the game as a whole in one way or another. 

8 hours ago, EXPERIENCE said:

Nightmaw attacks(The nights when 25%(rounded down) and 50%(rounded down) of the starting number of players have died, a Nightmaw attacks 1 random person). 

Okay, I have a slightly different question than Straw here. What's the point of this role? Traps have a purpose: they make powerful roles more risky to use, so players have to choose whether their target is worth the risk. But this is two arbitrary deaths that may affect the balance of the game for reasons entirely outside the players' control. So it's an interesting flavor, but as a game mechanic it's not something the players can interact with, change, or strategize around. 

 

8 hours ago, EXPERIENCE said:

Traps(If a person uses an Aviar power that Activates Traps then the percent of their experience is used. Whatever the percent is, whenever you encounter a trap you have that percent chance of dying.) Healers can protect you from traps. Each time that you encounter a trap and survive, you become more experienced and your experience percent decreases by 1(to a minimum of 1). 

Does the player know their experience level? 

[Experience]

Thank you for the feedback Elberth. I see what your saying about the confirmed good. I am totally open to changing roles to make things balanced. I'm thinking of just going to make the spy and healer possible for either allignment. I'm not sure what to do with the kill role though, because I would like there to be something like that for the town.

Ok, I just would really like to have the Nightmaws incorporated somehow, still trying to figure that out. If I change it so that it's not random then I will also need to change the Hidden aviar power.

Yes, you are told what you experience is at the beginning of the game.

[Elandera]

Super excited for a First of the Sun game.

9 hours ago, EXPERIENCE said:

Healer: Your Aviar gives you the knowledge to heal all but the most deadly of wounds. (each night you can protect one person from death. You cannot protect yourself two nights in a row. If someone is attacked by a Nightmaw, then your protection fails.)

I agree with El on this one. Especially if you're including a village kill role, this should be a neutral role.

On the note of the Killer, I like that it activates a trap, since it's a bit of a deterrent for wanton killing just because they can.

9 hours ago, EXPERIENCE said:

Spy: Your Aviar gifts you with stealthiness letting you spy on the other Trappers. (Each night, you can check one person's alignment)[Activates Traps]

While it's great this also activates a trap, I'm not so sure about it checking alignment. Alignment scans can be tricky in balancing a game, as it gives decided advantage if that person can stay alive. If you made this an action scan, you could also make the spy a neutral role fairly easily. Though that would be similar to the Aviar Spy... except it would show anyone who didn't take an action (passive Aviar) or took an action that didn't count as an Aviar (elim kill). You'd also need to decide if the Killer, Aviar Killer, and Elim Kill would all scan the same or differently (my vote is the same, as it helps obscure both the good and bad killers).

14 minutes ago, EXPERIENCE said:

Ok, I just would really like to have the Nightmaws incorporated somehow, still trying to figure that out. If I change it so that it's not random then I will also need to change the Hidden aviar power.

I wouldn't necessarily say the Nightmaw is a bad thing, but El is right. The only thing interacting with it currently is the Hidden Aviar, which seems to be a passive ability. Maybe you could link it with the traps somehow. Like, if they activate a trap and survive, they have a -% chance of attracting the Nightmaw the following cycle unless they have the Hidden Aviar? Hmm. That would only work if someone could end up with more than one Aviar, though. I'll keep thinking on this.

Does the elim kill trigger traps?

[Elbereth]

30 minutes ago, EXPERIENCE said:

Thank you for the feedback Elberth. I see what your saying about the confirmed good. I am totally open to changing roles to make things balanced. I'm thinking of just going to make the spy and healer possible for either allignment. I'm not sure what to do with the kill role though, because I would like there to be something like that for the town.

Ok, I just would really like to have the Nightmaws incorporated somehow, still trying to figure that out. If I change it so that it's not random then I will also need to change the Hidden aviar power.

Yes, you are told what you experience is at the beginning of the game.

I think making the spy and healer possible for either alignment would be an excellent idea. If you want to make the killer confirmed good, that's your choice as the GM and minor enough that I won't contest it. (I will grumble, but that's because I have a longstanding grudge against confirmed good roles. It's even in my sig.) 

I mean, the Hidden role could still work. Essentially as it stands, the Nightmaw is an unblockable kill that the healer can't help with - only the Hidden role can avoid it. You could make it a one-time kill: once during the game, the traitors release a Nightmaw at their preferred target. This is a solution to, for instance, wanting to kill a player who's highly likely to be protected because they're extremely trusted. 

Hm. Here's a suggestion to consider: everyone's experience starts at the same level, but increases every time the player posts 200 or more words of RP. Or of game-related discussion, if you prefer. You certainly don't have to this, or any variant of it, but my reasoning is: 1. Mechanics encouraging discussion or RP are almost always effective / popular. 2. Starting the game with some players more disadvantaged than others by chance is okay, but not something players always enjoy. (This ties into a stronger principle of 'complete randomness takes agency away from players', which I'm going to try to avoid giving a speech on right now. ) 
But I know that also takes away from the flavor a little bit. 

2 minutes ago, Elandera said:

While it's great this also activates a trap, I'm not so sure about it checking alignment. Alignment scans can be tricky in balancing a game, as it gives decided advantage if that person can stay alive. If you made this an action scan, you could also make the spy a neutral role fairly easily. Though that would be similar to the Aviar Spy... except it would show anyone who didn't take an action (passive Aviar) or took an action that didn't count as an Aviar (elim kill). You'd also need to decide if the Killer, Aviar Killer, and Elim Kill would all scan the same or differently (my vote is the same, as it helps obscure both the good and bad killers).

Okay, this is also a good point. I was more focused on the confirmed roles, but alignment scanners can cause similar mayoring issues. A Spy could claim C1, asking for protection, and confirm people every day. And then the elims can't kill the scanner, and have to either let confirmed villagers build up or commit to killing them every night. (Unless there are two protects. Then it's even worse.) Probably the Spy gets lynched eventually, to make sure they've been village, but even if there's one Good Looking aviar in there it's still a huge advantage for the village. 

[Experience]

As of now, yes the elim kill triggers traps.

[Elbereth]

Hm. I would advise against that. The village killer doesn't have to kill: killing should be dangerous for them, so they don't just kill someone every cycle even if they don't have a target. The elims do have to kill (or, they technically don't - I'm pretty sure there was a game where they didn't or near-didn't - but it makes the game much harder), so the risk-benefit looks less like "both options have pros and cons" and more like "both options have cons". It's akin to every village lynch having a 15% chance of killing a village - the village will still do it because they don't have other options, but it'll make the game harder to win. A killer can say "ah well, I gambled and lost". The elims can only say "I did what I had to and chance killed me anyway". 

Or, revision: if you choose that ruling, I would recommend a stronger elim team than standard (so, larger size or at least one healer or both - healers help a lot here, in fact). 

[xinoehp512]

13 hours ago, Elbereth said:

release a Nightmaw at their preferred target.

Just a little idea- a Patji's Flower trap instead, for flavor? 

[Experience]

Here is the new and improved version. I think I addressed all of the problems so far. 

First of the Sun MR:

You are a group of adventurers on Patji who have traitors in your midst. The Traitorous Trappers need to equal the number of Trappers to win. The Trappers need to eliminate all of the Traitorous Trappers to win. 

Aviar(Roles):

Healer: Your Aviar gives you the knowledge to heal all but the most deadly of wounds. (each night you can protect one person from death. You cannot protect yourself two nights in a row. If someone is attacked by a Nightmaw, then your protection fails.)

Spy: Your Aviar gifts you with stealthiness letting you spy on the other Trappers. (Each night, you can check one person's alignment. Has 30% chance of giving wrong alignment)[Activates Traps]

Good-looking: Your Aviar looks amazing and gives you the gift to look good as well.(If you are spied on, then you will appear as a Trapper. If your Aviar is spied on, then they appear as a Hidden Aviar)

Hidden: Your Aviar hides your mind from predators. (If the Nightmaw attacks you, you don’t die)

Messenger Your Aviar allows you to speak in somebody's mind for a short period of time. (During the night you can set up one PM with one other player. Must include GM(s). After night ends, you are not allowed to talk in the PM anymore)[Activates Traps]

Aviar Killer You know that without their Aviar, the traitors will be greatly weakened. Your Aviar gives you the ability to trap Aviar(Each night you can choose to kill one players Aviar)[Activates Traps]

Aviar Spy Your Aviar gives you the power to know other Aviar’s gifts. (Each night you can choose one person and you learn their Aviar's power)[Activates Traps]

Experience:

Supreme - 5%

Master - 9%

Apprentice - 13%

Amatuer - 17%

Events:

• Nightmaw attacks(Once per game, the Traitorous Trappers can unleash a Nightmaw instead of their night kill. The Nightmaw attack cannot be protected by the healer). 

• Traps(If a person uses an Aviar power that Activates Traps then the percent of their experience is used. Whatever the percent is, whenever you encounter a trap you have that percent chance of dying. Mafia attack does not activate traps.) Healers can protect you from traps. Each time that you encounter a trap and survive, you become more experienced and your experience percent decreases by 1(to a minimum of 1). 

 

Order of actions:

Traps

Aviar Spy & spy

Heal

Maf kill & aviar kill & nightmaw attack

Messenger

Other Things:

• A tie lynch vote is randomly chosen
• No PM's allowed except with the messenger
• Players submit their role actions through their GM PM.
• Traps are something that are there at the beginning of the game. You don't place them. Whenever you use an action that encounters a trap, then you have your experience percent chance of dying.  

Changed rules:

• Scrapped the kill role.
• Changed Nightmaw
• Changed traps slightly
• Changed Spy
• Made Spy and Healer not alignment specific. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by EXPERIENCE

[Experience]

Also wondering, would it work to make it so that the maf can't win until they have unleashed the Nightmaw?

[Experience]

Where do I go to sign up as a GM?

[Straw]

4 hours ago, EXPERIENCE said:

Where do I go to sign up as a GM?

You usually ask one of the mods. @Devotary of Spontaneity is on at the moment, so they might be able to help.

[Zillah]

I have been developing a ruleset recently, and I was hoping for some feedback/suggestions. I have linked the document rather than putting the entire ruleset here. (Because formatting.)

[link has been removed]

Edited April 18, 2020 by Zillah
Typo

[Straw]

46 minutes ago, Zillah said:

I have been developing a ruleset recently, and I was hoping for some feedback/suggestions. I have linked the document rather than putting the entire ruleset here. (Because formatting.)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11lpB6xRY07yPCxO5ps7xOpZ50iSgrbyDBI-zI3TmhYg

I need permission to access that document,

[Elbereth]

@EXPERIENCE what format of game would you like to sign up for? 

[Straw]

Just now, Elbereth said:

@EXPERIENCE what format of game would you like to sign up for? 

Fifth said he handled it.

[Elbereth]

Yep, he did.  I just saw. 

[Zillah]

1 hour ago, Straw said:

I need permission to access that document,

I think I fixed it now. 

[Experience]

What do the percents on the right side of the tables stand for?

[Zillah]

The percentage is the likelihood of that passion being given to a player. It corresponds to the reference chart below. I wanted to use a D20 as my “RNG” for them because I’m a nerd and why not?