Metacognition

The Art of Game Creation

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1 hour ago, Cadmium Compounder said:

So I was reviewing the games I've played in, and in the King Killer Chronicle game (MR 29, I believe), There was a joke going on before the game actually started to lynch the GM, and it got me wondering...

Have there been any games where the GM also had a secret role or something that allowed them to directly influence the game in an unknown way? If so, could someone point me to it? It seems like it could be an interesting and fun mechanic.   

Hahahaha...

Any of Joe’s games are a good launching point (I recommend QF14 if you want truly interesting mechanics with supposedly OOG characters). GM intervention is interesting, but also fraught with risk in many ways. The main role of the GM is to be an impartial facilitator of an enjoying game, and having them possess direct influence would undermine that slightly. That said, having the GM function like an NPC and have a jester role or similar has been successfully implemented before. Consider LG15a and LG41, in which the GM had to be lynched for the Elims to win, or games (there’s quite a few of these) where the GM used a character of their own to advance writeups. It really kind of depends on what you have in mind, I suppose. :P 

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2 hours ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Hahahaha...

Any of Joe’s games are a good launching point (I recommend QF14 if you want truly interesting mechanics with supposedly OOG characters). GM intervention is interesting, but also fraught with risk in many ways. The main role of the GM is to be an impartial facilitator of an enjoying game, and having them possess direct influence would undermine that slightly. That said, having the GM function like an NPC and have a jester role or similar has been successfully implemented before. Consider LG15a and LG41, in which the GM had to be lynched for the Elims to win, or games (there’s quite a few of these) where the GM used a character of their own to advance writeups. It really kind of depends on what you have in mind, I suppose. :P 

There was also an idea for a Legion game in which the GM is Stephen and a village wincon is to help Stephen somehow while the elims are trying to hurt him. Could this be implemented?

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10 minutes ago, Lumgol said:

There was also an idea for a Legion game in which the GM is Stephen and a village wincon is to help Stephen somehow while the elims are trying to hurt him. Could this be implemented?

Ooh, I really like this. Now I’m super tempted to build a game like this.

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On 3/14/2019 at 3:47 PM, Mailliw772 said:

There was also an idea for a Legion game in which the GM is Stephen and a village wincon is to help Stephen somehow while the elims are trying to hurt him. Could this be implemented?

On 3/14/2019 at 3:58 PM, Snipexe said:

Ooh, I really like this. Now I’m super tempted to build a game like this.

May I direct your eyes towards QF6. It doesn't have everything you are asking for but may give you a couple of ideas should you decide to make one yourself.

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Figured I’d throw these here as well to get some more feedback. I wanted to play with the 8 basic Allomantic metals, but in a different way from Meta’s classic rules for them. I’ll probably run this as a Long Game. 

Soother: A Soother can burn brass and Soothe a player each night, causing their zeal for justice to diminish. During the next cycle, the Soothed player cannot post in thread or use abilities.

Rioter: Once per game, a Rioter can burn their zinc during the day to encourage a second lynch. That day, the two players with the most votes will be lynched. The Eliminators will also get a second kill due to their anger being rioted.

Seeker: A Seeker is told which players used abilities that night. The more they use their ability, they grow in skill and the more information they’ll receive.

Smoker: Smokers interfere with Seeking. At night, a Smoker can choose a player to Smoke. When they do this, it distorts the information the Seeker receives about that person. If a Smoker is one of the two most voted for players up for a lynch when the Rioter uses their ability, the Smoker will not die.

Coinshot: As a Coinshot flies around the city at night, they spot any attacks. When they do, they have the ability to Push on the weapon and deflect it to the player above or below the intended target on the player list.

Lurcher: A Lurcher can choose to Pull attacks toward them and their protective shield, bringing the kill one person on the player list closer to the Lurcher’s own position.

Tineye: Tineyes have enhanced senses that they use to observe at night. To them, the city is an open book. Their senses enable them to evade any actions taken against them while burning tin at night. They’ll be told what action(s) were taken against them.

Pewterarm: When a Pewterarm is attacked, they will fight for their survival. They will stay alive for one turn after being attacked or lynched. During that turn, they can choose a player to kill. If they kill their attacker, they will survive.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/12aSHFZDQ1AQJnYEOcSFvHHRioHHypWSBuAagcvFTVB4

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25 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

Soother: A Soother can burn brass and Soothe a player each night, causing their zeal for justice to diminish. During the next cycle, the Soothed player cannot post in thread or use abilities.

I like this twist, but I’d be careful with restricting a player’s ability to post. The roleblock seems fine, but silencing people may cause disengagement or disillusionment with the game—as this ability stands, it effectively kills a player for one cycle, which can be incredibly frustrating especially in combination with denial of the ability to submit an action. 

26 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

Seeker: A Seeker is told which players used abilities that night. The more they use their ability, they grow in skill and the more information they’ll receive.

Could you disambiguate this slightly? As this ability stands, I’m not entirely sure what this does. Would it simply provide imperfect lists of who takes action each Night, or is it more specific?

30 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

Coinshot: As a Coinshot flies around the city at night, they spot any attacks. When they do, they have the ability to Push on the weapon and deflect it to the player above or below the intended target on the player list.

Would they target a specific player or attack, or would they simply say “any attacks are Pushed one player up/down” as an order? The same applies to the Lurchers. Would these abilities affect both Thug and Eliminator kills? 

31 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

Tineye: Tineyes have enhanced senses that they use to observe at night. To them, the city is an open book. Their senses enable them to evade any actions taken against them while burning tin at night. They’ll be told what action(s) were taken against them.

This seems...a little overpowered? A village tin claimant could be both completely untouchable while at the same time knowing exactly what other people are doing to them. There’s heavy potential for a mayorship to be set up here, and even giving the role to an Elim doesn’t fix much; they’d still be immortal except to the lynch and generally have too much of a protective shield. Perhaps give the ability a limit on frequency of use, or add a drawback such as vote negation? 

Factions are presumably typical village/Eliminator, yes? Are PMs allowed? If two Rioters use their abilities simultaneously, would three people be lynched/killed at Night? 

I do think that this ruleset should prove very interesting, though, and I like the novel mechanics you’ve come up with. Your conception of Pewter is an excellent thematic twist as well. It’s good to see diverging interpretations of Meta’s original roles. 

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2 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

I like this twist, but I’d be careful with restricting a player’s ability to post. The roleblock seems fine, but silencing people may cause disengagement or disillusionment with the game—as this ability stands, it effectively kills a player for one cycle, which can be incredibly frustrating especially in combination with denial of the ability to submit an action. 

Could you disambiguate this slightly? As this ability stands, I’m not entirely sure what this does. Would it simply provide imperfect lists of who takes action each Night, or is it more specific?

Would they target a specific player or attack, or would they simply say “any attacks are Pushed one player up/down” as an order? The same applies to the Lurchers. Would these abilities affect both Thug and Eliminator kills? 

This seems...a little overpowered? A village tin claimant could be both completely untouchable while at the same time knowing exactly what other people are doing to them. There’s heavy potential for a mayorship to be set up here, and even giving the role to an Elim doesn’t fix much; they’d still be immortal except to the lynch and generally have too much of a protective shield. Perhaps give the ability a limit on frequency of use, or add a drawback such as vote negation? 

Factions are presumably typical village/Eliminator, yes? Are PMs allowed? If two Rioters use their abilities simultaneously, would three people be lynched/killed at Night? 

I do think that this ruleset should prove very interesting, though, and I like the novel mechanics you’ve come up with. Your conception of Pewter is an excellent thematic twist as well. It’s good to see diverging interpretations of Meta’s original roles. 

Most of these confusions come from me posting only the metal mechanics, not the rest of the rules for the game, so sorry for that. 

Concerning Soothing, that is a good point that I didn't consider. PMs are completely open in this game, so they would still have interactions that way. Maybe I would change it to only last for the turn, either day or night, depending on when the Soother used it. 

So, the first turn a Seeker burned bronze, they'd learn which players burned metals at all. The second night, they'd learn which burned physical and which burned mental metals, and so on, getting more specific each night they burn their metal. I left it ambiguous on purpose, since I haven't exactly decided how the progression will work, but the example here should suffice for now. 

  • Maill is a Seeker and burns Bronze N1. He gets this as a result: Fifth, Alv, and Wilson burned metals. N2, he's more practiced with his metal and gets something like: Fifth and Alv burned physical metals, Wilson burned a mental one. N3: Fifth and Wilson burned a pushing metal, Alv burned a pulling metal. N4: Fifth burned Steel, Alv burned Tin, and Wilson burned Brass.
  • Does that make more sense?

So the part I neglected to put in is that the eliminators would submit their kill during the day, but the action wouldn't take place till the night. Flavor-wise, they deliberate and then make the decision during the day so that the assigned killer can use the night to make the kill. At the beginning of the night, the Coinshot would be told who was being attacked and then could choose to not affect the kill, move it up the player list, or down, with the current rule. I think Iron/Steel need the most finetuning, but I want to do something along these lines. Their abilities would only affect the eliminator kill. I've also had the idea(thanks to Lum) that Lurchers might choose to switch places with someone else on the player list and affecting the elim kill and coinshots in that way. 

Good point concerning Tineyes. Maybe they can alternate nights between observing a specific player to see who they target and from being on alert themselves to evade attacks. I also like the idea of them being tired from being on guard all night so they fail to vote. 

Yep, typical village/eliminator game. There will be open PMs. Yes, if two Rioters used their abilities on the same cycle, up to 6 people could be attacked that cycle. 

Thanks for the feedback as well as the compliment! It helps to have people like you to analyze the rules as well. :)

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If a Rioter uses their ability and the Elims place kill orders during the Day, how would the Elims know to place a second kill?  Would they be allowed to submit a second order during the Night or would they have to submit an order each Day on the off chance a Rioter uses their ability?

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12 minutes ago, Gammalv Fiend said:

If a Rioter uses their ability and the Elims place kill orders during the Day, how would the Elims know to place a second kill?  Would they be allowed to submit a second order during the Night or would they have to submit an order each Day on the off chance a Rioter uses their ability?

Oh, good point. I’d probably say they can submit 2 during the day on the off chance of a Riot. 

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Hey Maill, this looks like a cool ruleset!

One question, if a Rioter uses their ability, but a Smoker also used theirs, if the Smoker was the person with the most votes, would they still die?

In other words, does smoking prevent lynch immunity when rioted, or only immunity to the extra rioted lynch?

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10 hours ago, Furamirionind said:

Hey Maill, this looks like a cool ruleset!

One question, if a Rioter uses their ability, but a Smoker also used theirs, if the Smoker was the person with the most votes, would they still die?

In other words, does smoking prevent lynch immunity when rioted, or only immunity to the extra rioted lynch?

Thanks!

It negates the Rioting completely, so if the Smoker was either the first or the second person with the most votes, they wouldn’t die. But the other person with the most votes would. So lynch immunity when there’s a Riot. 

12 hours ago, Mailliw73 said:

Oh, good point. I’d probably say they can submit 2 during the day on the off chance of a Riot. 

@Gammalv Fiend

I actually changed my mind on this. Burning Zinc will be a night action, that way everyone knows there is a second lynch and kill. 

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On 3/15/2019 at 9:06 PM, tiny wilson said:

Soother: A Soother can burn brass and Soothe a player each night, causing their zeal for justice to diminish. During the next cycle, the Soothed player cannot post in thread or use abilities.

Along with the points that Fifth Scholar mentioned, this role seems to be biased towards to elims. I can't really think of a situation in which the village would want a player to be silenced.

On 3/15/2019 at 9:06 PM, tiny wilson said:

Rioter: Once per game, a Rioter can burn their zinc during the day to encourage a second lynch. That day, the two players with the most votes will be lynched. The Eliminators will also get a second kill due to their anger being rioted.

I'm seeing a lot of possible problems with this role. First of all, giving the elim team this role would be very dangerous. At any point, the elim team has the opportunity to remove four players in a single turn, drastically swinging the balance of the game (especially if they manage to remove valuable players). On the other hand, it would also give the village the ability to gain a burst of information, and possibly remove two villagers. Essentially, this role seems very swingy and difficult to balance.

On 3/15/2019 at 9:06 PM, tiny wilson said:

Coinshot: As a Coinshot flies around the city at night, they spot any attacks. When they do, they have the ability to Push on the weapon and deflect it to the player above or below the intended target on the player list.

Lurcher: A Lurcher can choose to Pull attacks toward them and their protective shield, bringing the kill one person on the player list closer to the Lurcher’s own position.

How important is the player list in your game? Are there mechanics allowing players to change their position on it?

On 3/15/2019 at 9:06 PM, tiny wilson said:

Tineye: Tineyes have enhanced senses that they use to observe at night. To them, the city is an open book. Their senses enable them to evade any actions taken against them while burning tin at night. They’ll be told what action(s) were taken against them.

Either part of this role is powerful on its own, but when combined it seems a bit overpowered. Maybe change it to just be the latter part?

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