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The Art of Game Creation


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Yes. I am just reading Kingkiller, and this sounds AMAYZING! Unfortunately, any GM who runs this will get +12 to their insanity roll and have to be put in the Crockery.

 

Heh. Yeah.....At one point, Aonar suggested I add a mechanic that allowed people to pull Kvothes and learn things above their rank. I think I said something about how this version of the University is filled with semi-honest students who don't do stuff like that....and if I had to deal with that mechanic then I was going to end up in the Crockery by the end of it all. So he said all GM's are insane. Especially the trolls.

 

Why did I have Aonar helping me again?

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Heh. Yeah.....At one point, Aonar suggested I add a mechanic that allowed people to pull Kvothes and learn things above their rank. I think I said something about how this version of the University is filled with semi-honest students who don't do stuff like that....and if I had to deal with that mechanic then I was going to end up in the Crockery by the end of it all. So he said all GM's are insane. Especially the trolls.

 

Why did I have Aonar helping me again?

 

 

And I believe I eventually convinced you to put in a slightly simpler version of that mechanic anyways. :P (Banned Books, anyone?)

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An absolutely insane game, as expected. Looks fun though. I particularly want to see people RP those apologies. No gameplay effect whatsoever, just incredibly amusing to me :P.

 

I note there though that I go mad, get a kill contract on me from Kas, and get killed, apparently after trusting Kas enough to elevate him up as well. I feel like there's something you're trying to tell me, Wilson :P (though I don't mind being used as a warning an educational example).

 

Also... 'Wyrm will have +4 to his Insanity Roll, making it all that much more likely that he will go insane.'. Sigged with no context :D.

Edited by Wyrmhero
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Wow. Just... Wow. Bravo Wilson, this thing is a MONSTER! :blink: (and people were frightened that my Elantris game would be too complicated...)

 

First of all, the praise:

Yay for a Kingkiller game! I've been waiting for one of these.  :lol:

 

Brilliant idea using the University as a setting. You've done an excellent job capturing all the feel and functions of the University into one game.

 

I love the tuition/board/income mechanics. Also, the "Underdark" really needs to be a possible place to board, perhaps only accessible through special conditions being met.

 

I LOVE Devi's role in the game- nailed it perfectly.  :D

 

The black market- Another brilliant idea. I can't wait to see that play out.  :D

 

 

Now, for some constructive criticism:

 

Clarity:

You use the phrase "action period" repeatedly, but it's unclear as to what exactly you mean by that. I think I have that figured out, but you may want to make that clearer (especially with a game this complicated).

 

Likewise with votes/complaints/Masters'-secret-votes: This mechanic is not clear to me at all. It could use a good summary and perhaps an example or two.

 

Also, calling the insanity modifiers "bonuses" was confusing for me, since they actually INCREASE the chances you'll go insane. I'd suggest dropping the word "bonus" and just say "such and such adds +X to your insanity roll."

 

Size of the game:

I fear that this game will be TOO big. I believe the biggest game we have ever had has been about 30 people? Assuming that you would be able to draw that many people into the game (and with it being this complex, I expect that will be difficult. A lot of people will be frightened away by that), that means a full 1/3rd of the players will be Masters. Is that what you intended? Also, what happens if you are only able to recruit about 20 people? That would make half of the starting players Masters.  :wacko:

 

On that note, too, what happens when people start getting eliminated and there are no viable candidates to elevate to a Master position in a particular field?

 

My advice would actually be to make the "Masters" a GM controlled mechanic, and let all the players start as students (possibly making it so that they can elevate to Master level at some point throughout the game by meeting a bunch of criteria). There is an added benefit to doing this: playing as a student sounds WAY more interesting and fun than playing as a Master. Yes, as a Master, you would get a few extra perks and abilities (like the secret votes), but at that point you are locked into your role and powers. As a student you have way more options and possibilities laid out in front of you, and many different avenues to explore.

 

Complexity:

To be honest, I think it is waaaaaay too complex- much more so than it needs to be. You have literally dozens of different mechanics at play here. Rough estimate, with 9 fields of study and about 4 powers possible with each field, plus a few more for Naming, that's 40 different game mechanics right there. Add onto that the finances, tuition, board, the Crockery, all the Imre actions- that's a LOT of stuff to try to keep track of, whether you are a player or a GM. And really, the main goal of the game- finding and eliminating the Skin-dancers, kind of gets lost in all of that.  :wacko:

 

My advice is to cut the powers down to about 1 per field, with the effectiveness of that power increasing as you go up through the ranks. It would make things much more manageable, while still allowing you to get the right "feel" for the university and the different fields. It might also be a good idea to cut out a few of the less interesting fields, like Arithmetic and Rhetoric, but that's a tough call to make. I like the mechanics involved with each of the disciplines, though there is some redundancy with things like role-blocking actions and what-not. (Side note: you seemed to be looking for what exactly to do with Rhetoric: might I suggest some vote-manipulation power(s)? It seems perfectly suited for Rhetoric, persuading others to your point of view and all that.)

 

Safe Roles:

I highly advice against making the Masters safe roles. It's bad enough having 1 safe role, let alone 9. And since they are in such a strong position of power anyway, I guarantee the players will find some way to exploit that. Having all the Masters reveal themselves and calling on the players to pool resources to buy bodyguards to protect them and etc etc etc. Again, I suggest making it so that no players start out as Masters, but if you insist on keeping that setup, then I think you'd be much better off by not making them safe roles.

 

Naming:

I kind of like that the Naming powers are so vague and open ended, but I also fear it, too. The nature of players is that they will try to find loopholes and exploit them, and when something like this is dependent solely on the GM's discretion, you're going to end up with nasty situations and hurt feelings somewhere down the line (Case and point: the secret codes which I allowed to be used in my recent Legion Quick Fix. I was expecting some simple codes here and there, along the lines of "if I bold my vote, vote for that person too, if I italicize it, it means I think they're innocent," I was NOT expecting what actually happened, and I know that some players were annoyed by it.) So in my limited experience, hard rules are much much better than firm rules or soft rules.

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Ooooh, feedback! Thank you, Hero! This is excellent! :D
 

I love the tuition/board/income mechanics. Also, the "Underdark" really needs to be a possible place to board, perhaps only accessible through special conditions being met.


I considered trying to fit the Underthing in somewhere but wasn't sure where. That could work. Could put it as the lodging for anyone who escapes the Crockery. Possibly. I'll look into it.

 

You use the phrase "action period" repeatedly, but it's unclear as to what exactly you mean by that. I think I have that figured out, but you may want to make that clearer (especially with a game this complicated).


Good catch. Some of that stuff with the action periods I added in late, since the role abilities were among the last things I really solidified. It probably doesn't help that I also counted complaint-filing with the actions, though slightly differently. Basically, everyone starts with one role action, but that role action could be used with an item if you have an Artificery or Alchemy item or you bought something in Imre. When I say that you get a new action period, you have an additional action period, so if you have multiple abilities, or a multi-use ability/item, you can use those. So you have two action periods. Or three if you're an El'the, or four if you're a Master. At least, in those particular fields.

 

Likewise with votes/complaints/Masters'-secret-votes: This mechanic is not clear to me at all. It could use a good summary and perhaps an example or two.


The votes in this game work differently. There's no lynching. When players "vote" in the thread, they're actually filing a complaint against that student with the Masters. And every two votes counts as a half vote in the Master's Secret Vote. And then the Masters all send in votes to me/the GM on who they personally would like punished that cycle. And then depending on how many votes a student ends up with, they'll be punished accordingly. It's practically a guarantee that multiple students will be brought On the Horns in the same turn, and it's also possible that multiple students could get charged with malfeasance. It's even possible, though unlikely, that multiple students could get expelled in the same turn.

As an example, let's say that Wyrm had 5 complaints filed against him (yes, Wyrm. People are now complaining about you too. :P), Aonar had 6, and Meta had 2. Everyone else had either one or none. So Aonar enters the Secret Vote with 1 1/2 votes on him already. Wyrm has 1 (since the fifth vote doesn't count as it's only every two that puts a half vote on), and Meta has a 1/2 vote on him. Let's say that 3 Masters voted for Aonar, 2 voted for Meta, and the other 4, including the Chancellor, voted for Wyrm. The final tally would look like this:

Wyrm - 5 1/2
Aonar - 4 1/2
Meta - 2 1/2

So we're now working with these:

2.5-3 votes: 60% charges dropped, 30% Undignified Mischief (apology), 10% Reckless Use of Sympathy (lashings)

4.5-5.5 votes: 20% Undignified Mischief (apology), 20% Reckless Use of Sympathy (lashings), 50% Conduct Unbecoming a Member of the Arcanum (lashings), 10% Conduct Unbecoming a Member of the Arcanum (expulsion)

 

Let's say the dice roll favors Meta and the charges against him are dropped. He walks away free and clear (though since he was brought On the Horns, he'll have that ding against him in the tuition).

Aonar's dice roll ends up with him being charged with Undignified Mischief, so now the Lord of Troll is being trolled and has to RP an apology for something he didn't do. :P

Wyrm is horribly unfortunate with his dice roll. Somehow, his dice roll puts him in that 10% chance of getting expelled. Poor Wyrm. He's kicked out of the University. :(

Does that make more sense?

 

Also, calling the insanity modifiers "bonuses" was confusing for me, since they actually INCREASE the chances you'll go insane. I'd suggest dropping the word "bonus" and just say "such and such adds +X to your insanity roll."


I will make that change just as soon as I'm back on my laptop. :)

 

I fear that this game will be TOO big. I believe the biggest game we have ever had has been about 30 people? Assuming that you would be able to draw that many people into the game (and with it being this complex, I expect that will be difficult. A lot of people will be frightened away by that), that means a full 1/3rd of the players will be Masters. Is that what you intended? Also, what happens if you are only able to recruit about 20 people? That would make half of the starting players Masters. :wacko:


This is definitely something to consider. There would need to be more than 20 players, for sure. I was guessing it would end up closer to 30. Mostly based on past games and the fact that this is a Kingkiller game. Simply by that virtue alone, it's going to appeal to people that might not usually play the games. For example, the last time we had a non-Sanderson game, there were 6 new players that joined and 4 of them haven't participated in another game since then. They came in solely for that game.

 

On that note, too, what happens when people start getting eliminated and there are no viable candidates to elevate to a Master position in a particular field?


....I'm still working on that. For a different reason though. I was working on it from the angle of "If one of the starting Masters is inactive and so is the E'lir in their field (assuming they even have an E'lir starting in their field), what happens?" I haven't decided, but I think you gave me an idea that I'm going to run with....

 

My advice would actually be to make the "Masters" a GM controlled mechanic, and let all the players start as students (possibly making it so that they can elevate to Master level at some point throughout the game by meeting a bunch of criteria). There is an added benefit to doing this: playing as a student sounds WAY more interesting and fun than playing as a Master. Yes, as a Master, you would get a few extra perks and abilities (like the secret votes), but at that point you are locked into your role and powers. As a student you have way more options and possibilities laid out in front of you, and many different avenues to explore.


I really like this idea. A lot. I think I'm going to do that, and I'll adjust the voting system slightly, making it so every complaint counts as a half vote. That'll make it so the loss of the Masters won't affect the punishments, but as long as there aren't any Masters to cast their secret votes, it'll be less likely for people to be expelled. So becoming a Master is still very game-relevant, but it's not a starting position.

 

My advice is to cut the powers down to about 1 per field, with the effectiveness of that power increasing as you go up through the ranks. It would make things much more manageable, while still allowing you to get the right "feel" for the university and the different fields.


Hm. This is good advice. I like it, and I see the merit of it. My only problem with it is that I really like some of the field abilities. They're just so perfect. I might be biased though. :P It also probably doesn't help that I'm thinking about this in terms of GMing, and with having cut out the Masters starting position, I'd be automating the ability-assignment side of things, so it wouldn't be too terribly complicated. The worst would be getting orders and figuring out what happened, but even then, I don't think that's too bad, since a decent amount of players are only going to have one action each cycle anyway. But from a player standpoint, it could get crazy.

However, I forgot to put this in the doc, so it didn't get mentioned in game post: Elevations are public knowledge. Not what field each player was elevated in, but a list is given in each writeup to say who got elevated that cycle. So that should make it easier for people who are paying attention to that kind of stuff to know who is at what rank. Especially since there aren't Masters.

Would that make it any easier?

 

It might also be a good idea to cut out a few of the less interesting fields, like Arithmetic and Rhetoric, but that's a tough call to make. I like the mechanics involved with each of the disciplines, though there is some redundancy with things like role-blocking actions and what-not. (Side note: you seemed to be looking for what exactly to do with Rhetoric: might I suggest some vote-manipulation power(s)? It seems perfectly suited for Rhetoric, persuading others to your point of view and all that.)


Oh, I'm not cutting a field. I don't expect fields like Arithmetic, Rhetoric, Linguistics, and even Archives in part to have as big of a draw as fields like Naming, Sympathy, Physicking, Alchemy, and Artificery, but students who go into those less immediately powerful fields and stick with them could easily become as much of a force to be reckoned with as a Namer. Personally, I'd do a cross of Archives and Linguistics if I were playing. I wouldn't even touch the arcane fields, but I guarantee that if things worked right in terms of what abilities I was given, in about 3-4 cycles, even a Namer would be hard-pressed to touch me.

I actually have a vote-manipulation ability for Rhetoric. The complaint switch. Since the complaints are the votes. But I suppose I could take both a Rioting and Soothing angle to it, rather than just doing one switch. That would make more sense.

 

I highly advice against making the Masters safe roles. It's bad enough having 1 safe role, let alone 9. And since they are in such a strong position of power anyway, I guarantee the players will find some way to exploit that. Having all the Masters reveal themselves and calling on the players to pool resources to buy bodyguards to protect them and etc etc etc. Again, I suggest making it so that no players start out as Masters, but if you insist on keeping that setup, then I think you'd be much better off by not making them safe roles.


Yeah....Yet another reason I can be happy that I'm cutting that starting position. I always worry about safe roles and I'd hate to see that many get exploited like that. But you're right. They'd find a way. Unfortunately.

 

I kind of like that the Naming powers are so vague and open ended, but I also fear it, too. The nature of players is that they will try to find loopholes and exploit them, and when something like this is dependent solely on the GM's discretion, you're going to end up with nasty situations and hurt feelings somewhere down the line. So in my limited experience, hard rules are much much better than firm rules or soft rules.


Yeah, I'll probably throw a couple hard rules in there, like that each Name can only be used for one use in the action. And there should already be a rule about not using the same Name twice in an action order.

 

What I mean by each Name only having one use per action would be like this: Using the fourth Naming example for the main post, which was "Invoke Blood, Wind, Bone, and Stone to draw all actions to a single person," that actually wouldn't end up working with this new rule, since Blood and Bone are both pulling 5 action-types (Names, Sabotages, Alchemy, Medica, Sympathy), and Wind is drawing two action types (PM-related and misc actions). They'd now be restricted to only pulling one action-type. So Blood could be used to pull Sabotages/Kills and Bone could be used to pull Medica actions, but Sympathy, Alchemy, and Names are still out there (or you could use Blood or Bone to pull one of those instead). And then Wind could pull PM-related actions, but all the misc actions are still out there as well.

That one rule should cut down on a fair bit of exploitation, and the loopholes I'm hemming in through the necessity of explanations. This particular rule is there because one, I've learned that I could never be a Namer. There's far too much open-endedness to it and leeway. And two, because I lack the creativity to really see exactly what each Name can do (Aonar's the one who wrote all the Naming examples), I need the Namer to explain what exactly is happening, so I can understand the action and know what to do with it. The nice thing about this is that if they can't explain it, the action doesn't work. And if they don't explain it, the action doesn't work. But just because it doesn't work doesn't mean that it won't be attempted. The Names will still be used and the Namer will still get the increased insanity from it.

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I note there though that I go mad, get a kill contract on me from Kas, and get killed, apparently after trusting Kas enough to elevate him up as well. I feel like there's something you're trying to tell me, Wilson :P (though I don't mind being used as a warning an educational example).

 

Also... 'Wyrm will have +4 to his Insanity Roll, making it all that much more likely that he will go insane.'. Sigged with no context :D.

Says, I note, the person who betrayed me. Your revisionist tendencies are disturbing.

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I considered trying to fit the Underthing in somewhere but wasn't sure where

Oops, I meant Underthing, not Underdark. Underdark is from a different series. my bad.

 

 

The votes in this game work differently....

...Does that make more sense?

Yes, very much so, thank you. :)

 

 

I really like this idea. A lot. I think I'm going to do that, and I'll adjust the voting system slightly, making it so every complaint counts as a half vote. That'll make it so the loss of the Masters won't affect the punishments, but as long as there aren't any Masters to cast their secret votes, it'll be less likely for people to be expelled. So becoming a Master is still very game-relevant, but it's not a starting position.

Cool, I'm glad you like it. :) I have another suggestion to add onto it, relating to complaints/votes:

I think it would be cool to work up a system where the more you impress a particular master the more likely that master is to vote in your favor if you get brought up on the horns. It wouldn't be too difficult to set up to run automatically, and it's very thematic with how it seemed to work in the books when Kvothe gets brought up on the horns. There are a lot of different ways you could do it, here is one possible way:

  • Give each student a set number of chances to impress the Masters each cycle. For this scenario, lets say 3 chances / cycle. A student can spread those out over several different Masters, or focus them onto one Master. The "impressions" add up cumulatively, and remain with that Master until spent- either on an elevation or on a vote. Example: Wyrm spends his first cycle impressing the Master Linguist 3 times. The next turn, he decides to diversify a bit, and impresses the Master Linguist, the Master Archivist, and the Master Namer. At the end of his second cycle, his impression scores are as follows: Master Linguist: 4, Archivist: 1, Namer: 1
  • The amount of impressions a student makes on a Master determines the odds that the Master will elevate that student instead of any of the other students (The Master could simply choose the player with the most impression points, or it could be determined randomly, weighted so that players who have a higher number of impression points are more likely to be chosen over players who have less). When a Master elevates a student, it uses up a certain amount of impression points (I'd say like 5, making it so that only players who currently have 5 or more impression points with a Master can be chosen to be elevated). Example continued: After the second cycle, Wyrm hopes to be elevated by the Master Linguist. However, Master Linguist chooses to elevate Aonar instead, who has accumulated 6 impression points with him so far. 5 of Aonar's impression points are spent on the elevation.
  • If a student is brought up on the horns each Master casts a number of votes determined randomly- say 0-4 votes- towards that student's punishment. A die is rolled for each Master separately. However, the number of votes is then reduced by any impression points that player has accumulated with that Master. Those impression points are spent, and must be re-earned. Example Continued: That same cycle, Wyrm is brought up on the horns. After the number of votes for each Master has been randomly determined, the vote tally sits thusly: Linguist: 4, Archivist: 0, Namer :3, and etc. All 4 of Wyrm's Linguist impression points are spent reducing Master Linguist's votes to 0, and his 1 point with Master Namer is spent reducing Master Namer's votes to 2. His vote tally is 2 (from Master Namer) plus however many votes the other 6 Masters cast. He now only has 1 impression point, with Master Archivist, remaining.
  • If/when a player is elevated to a Master position, he is informed of all the impression points each student has in that Master's field, and points are still gained and spent normally, but the random element is taken out. The player gets to choose which students to elevate and how many votes to cast towards each student's punishment. Example continued: Several terms later, Aonar is promoted to Master Linguist. Upon occupying the position, he finds that Wyrm has accumulated 16 impression points in Linguistics, and has yet to receive an Elevation in his field. Finding that tremendously amusing, Aonar continues to pass up Wyrm in favor of elevating other students with far fewer impression points, and the next time Wyrm is on the horns Aonar casts 4 votes towards him, expending 4 of Wyrm's hard earned impression points.

Again, there are a lot of things in the system I just laid that you could tweak or change completely, as you see fit, but for me personally I think it would add some nice flavor to the game without making things overly complicated.

 

 

 

Hm. This is good advice. I like it, and I see the merit of it. My only problem with it is that I really like some of the field abilities. They're just so perfect. I might be biased though.  :P It also probably doesn't help that I'm thinking about this in terms of GMing, and with having cut out the Masters starting position, I'd be automating the ability-assignment side of things, so it wouldn't be too terribly complicated. The worst would be getting orders and figuring out what happened, but even then, I don't think that's too bad, since a decent amount of players are only going to have one action each cycle anyway. But from a player standpoint, it could get crazy.

However, I forgot to put this in the doc, so it didn't get mentioned in game post: Elevations are public knowledge. Not what field each player was elevated in, but a list is given in each writeup to say who got elevated that cycle. So that should make it easier for people who are paying attention to that kind of stuff to know who is at what rank. Especially since there aren't Masters.

Would that make it any easier?

That would help a bit, though I would still recommend reducing the number of powers in each field as much as possible. I wouldn't mind seeing you cut out a lot of the redundant powers, making it so that each field has its own unique flavor and specialty (ie: Rhetoric would be vote-manipulation (quick side-note: if you need some more vote-manipulation ideas, go reread my Elantris rules. That game is LOADED with vote manipulation :) ), the Medica would be healing/recovery effects, Artificing and Alchemy would each have their own unique set of items they could create, and etc). But ultimately, I leave those decisions up to you.

 

Honestly, simply making it so that all the players start out as beginning level students would help a lot, because then at least at the start of the game you wouldn't have a lot of powers to track and worry about. As the game progresses and you become more familiar with it more and more powers would naturally come into play via student elevations.

 

 

Yeah, I'll probably throw a couple hard rules in there, like that each Name can only be used for one use in the action. And there should already be a rule about not using the same Name twice in an action order....

 

That one rule should cut down on a fair bit of exploitation, and the loopholes I'm hemming in through the necessity of explanations. This particular rule is there because one, I've learned that I could never be a Namer. There's far too much open-endedness to it and leeway. And two, because I lack the creativity to really see exactly what each Name can do (Aonar's the one who wrote all the Naming examples), I need the Namer to explain what exactly is happening, so I can understand the action and know what to do with it. The nice thing about this is that if they can't explain it, the action doesn't work. And if they don't explain it, the action doesn't work. But just because it doesn't work doesn't mean that it won't be attempted. The Names will still be used and the Namer will still get the increased insanity from it.

Agreed, that alone will help a lot. And combine that with the increased odds of going insane and the chance that if you try to get too crazy with your naming powers the GM will nix your action and your powers fizzle, I think that will bring Naming down into the realm of manageability. 

Edited by Herowannabe
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I have another suggestion to add onto it, relating to complaints/votes:

 

Again, there are a lot of things in the system I just laid that you could tweak or change completely, as you see fit, but for me personally I think it would add some nice flavor to the game without making things overly complicated.

 

Oooh, that's an interesting idea. I'm assuming then that elevations would just be randomly chosen based on the impressions, regardless of how many points there are (though it would be weighted by the number of points). So someone with only one impression point could theoretically be elevated, and their points would just go back down to 0 in that field. I like this a lot. And the best part is that it makes it easier to elevate students to Masters as well, with a rule that's something like for an El'the who accumulates 10 points (or 20) in one of their fields of study, they become the Master of that field, spending all those points.

 

 

 

That would help a bit, though I would still recommend reducing the number of powers in each field as much as possible. I wouldn't mind seeing you cut out a lot of the redundant powers, making it so that each field has its own unique flavor and specialty (ie: Rhetoric would be vote-manipulation (quick side-note: if you need some more vote-manipulation ideas, go reread my Elantris rules. That game is LOADED with vote manipulation  :) ), the Medica would be healing/recovery effects, Artificing and Alchemy would each have their own unique set of items they could create, and etc). But ultimately, I leave those decisions up to you.

 

That's totally do-able. I think most of the fields are already geared like that. Rhetoric probably has the most overlap, but vote-manip makes sense. I'd already added a Soothing ability in since your original suggestions (Argumentum Ad Nauseam: you start a conversation with your target about ancient Yllish agriculture or an equally dull topic, boring them so much, they fall asleep and forget to file a complaint. :P). I'll take a closer look at the Elantris game for more ideas.

 

 

 

Honestly, simply making it so that all the players start out as beginning level students would help a lot, because then at least at the start of the game you wouldn't have a lot of powers to track and worry about. As the game progresses and you become more familiar with it more and more powers would naturally come into play via student elevations.

 

Starting out in the Arcanum, or outside? I was planning on having 25% of the players start in the Arcanum, as E'lirs, and the rest would be outside, trying to get in. I contemplated having a few as Re'lars, but that's a little too far up the ranks and I want the players to have a choice what fields they study.

 

 

 

Agreed, that alone will help a lot. And combine that with the increased odds of going insane and the chance that if you try to get too crazy with your naming powers the GM will nix your action and your powers fizzle, I think that will bring Naming down into the realm of manageability. 

 

I'm working with Aonar on this. I very nearly scrapped Naming there for a bit yesterday, but we're figuring out a system that isn't quite hard rules, but each name has a clear function within its basic function. Like, the ones that have a wider selection of basic functions (Wind, etc) are less powerful with things like defensive and offensive actions, but when used with defensive or offensive Names, they become more powerful. It's basically a system that will tell me exactly how powerful a Name is by itself and how powerful it is when coupled with other Names--the spread of its effects, etc.

 

I don't plan to release the full system in the public game rules (though I'd release it post-game), but the basics of it will be there to help in knowing what kinds of actions are possible and what aren't for each Name. Sort of grounds the Names a little more. They're still really powerful and there's a lot of open-endedness to it and leeway for creativity, but it's less of a "Make an action and as long as you can explain how it works, it doesn't matter how OP it is. It'll work" which will be good. (Not that I had any intention of allowing an order like "Invoke Fire and Iron to find and kill all the Skindancers" to actually work....)

 

 

Why are you so cruel, Hero? I thought we were comrades in names :(

 

Edit: And Aonar. Bah to you too >>.

 

Personally, I found them utterly hilarious. I'd upvote that post at least twice solely on those examples if I could....And the addition of Aonar as Master Linguist. Pure gold. He would so do that, and I would probably die of laughter watching it happen. Poor Wyrm. Nothing's going right for him. :(

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I'm glad I've been able to help you flesh out these rules a bit, they seem like they're really coming together.

 

Of course, now that I've been sucked into helping with the design stages of this game, I'm not going to be able to resist actually playing it when your turn comes up, even if it is going to fall right during my busy season at work.  <_<

 

I can't wait!  :D

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I'm glad I've been able to help you flesh out these rules a bit, they seem like they're really coming together.

 

Of course, now that I've been sucked into helping with the design stages of this game, I'm not going to be able to resist actually playing it when your turn comes up, even if it is going to fall right during my busy season at work.  <_<

 

I can't wait!  :D

 

Your help has been fantastic, so thank you very much. I'm about to do a massive re-write to that Kingkiller doc this weekend to both simplify the wording (since I'm realizing that there are some mechanics that I explained far more complexly than was necessary. The Horns mechanic specifically) and fit in your suggestions. Should be fun. Rewriting 8500 words is exactly what I wanted to do with my Saturday. :P

 

Well, that makes two (possibly three) sorry souls now. :)

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So my Elantris game will be starting sign ups soon- I'm basically just waiting for the word from Meta as to how soon- to commemorate the 10 year anniversary of it's original release date. I've touched up my rules for the game, and am post them again below. Even if you have read through the rules before, please read through them again now- a few minor things have changed, but also just to refresh your memory. Also, this is your last chance to make comments and suggestions as to how I might do things better.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Elantris Elimination Rules


Factions & Faction Specific Roles

The Jeskeri Mysteries Cult

Goal: Eliminate all other players


Cultist: As a group, the cultists may pick one person to kill each night. They have access to the Jeskeri Mysteries doc, and may communicate with each other freely in it.



Shu-Dereth

Goal: Convert all other players. If all the remaining players are converted (Note: this includes Elantrians- they must all either be converted or eliminated), the game ends and the Gyorn and the Odiv are declared winners. All the converts lose.



Gyorn: Once per night, you may convert someone to Shu-Dereth. You may NOT "convert" yourself. Also, once per game, you may choose one of your converts to be your Odiv. If your Odiv is eliminated, you may NOT select another one, so choose wisely. You may select your Odiv during any night phase, and you MAY still perform your normal conversion action during the same night. You and your Odiv may PM each other freely. You are IMMUNE to the Shaod.


Odiv: When selected to be Odiv, you keep your role(s), objects, and abilities, but your faction and win condition changes to that of Shu-Dereth. You gain the following night action: Just like the Gyorn, once per night, you may convert someone to Shu-Dereth. You and your Gyorn may PM each other freely.


Convert: You have been persuaded to believe in Holy Jaddeth. When you are converted, your role, your abilities, your faction, and your win conditions DO NOT change. At the end of each night, you will be sent a PM by the GM telling you who all of the other converts are. You will NOT be told who the Gyorn is, nor which of the converts is the Odiv. So in other words, you are still working to bring the Gyorn and Odiv down. You'll just be given some additional information that other players won't have.



Citizens of Arelon

Goal: Eliminate all the Cultists as well as the Gyorn and the Odiv


Citizen: You have no special role, but your votes and your observations are of more value than any role anyway.


Shu-Korath Priest: Your faith in Merciful Domi is unwavering, and gives you insight into the hearts of those around you. During each night phase, you may PM the GM and target one player. At the end of the night phase you will be told that player's role and faction, and if that player is a Shu-Dereth Convert. You are also IMMUNE to being converted to Shu-Dereth, and you will be told if someone attempts to convert you, though not who it was.


Jindo Warrior: You are practiced in the martial art of ChayShan. Once during each night, you may PM the GM and choose one player to guard. That player is protected from the Cultists for that night. You may NOT guard the same player two nights in a row. You MAY guard yourself. You are IMMUNE to the Shaod.


Other roles

These roles may be had by a player from any faction.

 

Dula: You love to play matchmaker. At the beginning of the game, before the first cycle starts, you must choose two players, who then immediately form a bond of love (platonic or romantic) that transcends death (See the lovers, below). You may choose yourself as one of the lovers, if you wish.

 

 

In addition, you're such an affable person that each day phase if you receive any votes, the total number of votes against you is reduced by 1.


Lovers: The (platonic or romantic) lovers are told who each other are, but their roles and factions are not revealed to each other. They may not vote for or act to kill each other for the whole game. If one of the lovers is killed during the course of the game, the other lover is so stricken by grief that life isn't worth living anymore, and in the ultimate act of Shakespearean (platonic or romantic) love, takes his or her own life, too. The lovers' win condition is changed to simply surviving to the end of the game. The Shaod and becoming Hoed both have no effect on the lover's bond.


Note: The Prince/Princess and the Duke/Duchess CANNOT force you to vote for your partner. If this happens their power will have no effect that day. If this happens with the Duke/Duchess, you will NOT be able to choose his/her vote the next day. If the lovers happen to be from different factions then at some point they will likely have to betray their teammates in order to win.


Prince/Princess: You have the ability to inspire people to action. During each day phase, you may PM the GM and target one other player. If that player does not cast any vote, you choose who they vote for (include the vote in your PM to the GM), and they will show up in the write-up as such. You MAY still cast your own vote. You MAY have your target vote for someone different from you. You may NOT have your target vote for herself. Your target will not be informed that they were targeted.


You may not inspire your target to vote for someone that they are not capable of voting for. If you attempt this, knowingly or not, your power will have no effect that day.

If more than one Prince/Princess targets the same person, their target will cast NO vote.



Duke/Duchess: You have the ability to strike a deal. During each day phase, you may PM the GM and target one other player to be your business partner. You decide who your partner will vote for today (include the vote in your PM to the GM). Your partner's vote is changed to the person you choose for them to target, whether or not they cast a vote, and will appear in the write up as such. You MAY still cast your own vote. You MAY have your partner vote for someone different from you. You may NOT have your partner vote for herself. Your partner will NOT be told which player targeted them, but will be told that the Duke/Duchess changed their vote.


HOWEVER, during the next day phase, if your partner has not been eliminated, she gets to choose who YOU vote for that day, with all the same stipulations as above. You MAY strike a deal multiple days in a row- each new day your partner from the previous day will choose your vote, and you will choose the vote for your new partner.


If you happen to partner with a Debtor, they may pass their debt on to you instead of choosing your vote the next day. If this happens, you become a Debtor, but you still retain your role as Duke/Duchess.


You may not force your partner to vote for someone he/she is not capable of voting for, nor may your partner make you vote for someone you are not capable of voting for (ie: If the Duke/Duchess partners with an Elantrian, he/she must select another Elantrian for his partner to vote for. The next day, the Elantrian partner may choose any target for the Duke/Duchess's vote that the Duke/Duchess is capable of voting for). If you attempt this, knowingly or not, your power will have no effect that day. If your partner attempts to make you vote for someone you aren't capable of voting for, OR if your partner neglects to choose a vote for you, you will show up as a no-vote that day.


Note: If the Duke/Duchess and the prince/princess target the same person, the Duke/Duchess's power takes precedence. The prince/princess's power only works if that player casts no vote whatsoever.


King/Queen: Your word is law. Your vote during the day phase counts double. You may not split your vote between two players. If targeted by the prince/princess or the Duke/Duchess, they control your double-vote.


The King/Queen also has the ability to declare by what means their heir will be selected when they die. You may PM the GM with your inheritance rules at any time. You may select a specific person to inherit, or may set up conditions for selecting your heir. They can be just about anything- a joke-contest, a special vote, randomly selected, whatever you want, as long as it's narrator approved and doesn't break the game, and as long as it isn’t depended on players’ rep in any way. Also, your inheritance laws must be resolved within one full cycle of your demise. Upon your death, the inheritance laws are revealed to the group and whoever is selected as your heir becomes the new King/Queen.


Pirate: You have the power to take people hostage. At any time in the game, you may PM the GM and target one other player to be your hostage. That player will remain as your hostage up until they die or you choose another hostage. If and when you are killed, your hostage is killed, too. Your hostage will not be informed that you are targeting them until you die.


Keeper of the Secret Tunnels: During each day phase, you may choose to cast your vote in secret. To do so, PM your vote to the GM during the day phase. You MAY cast a vote publicly, and your name will appear in the write up as having voted for that person, but the tallies will only count your secret vote. Casting a secret vote is not mandatory, you may choose to cast a vote the regular way, too. If you are targeted by a prince/princess or a Duke/Duchess, your secret vote will be ignored (or in other words, they cannot make use of your secret vote).


Debtor: Fate has conspired against you, and you have fallen on hard times. You are deep in debt, and the only thing keeping your creditors at bay is all the intrigue surrounding the daily lynchings. If there is ever a tie vote, including if nobody casts any votes, your creditors will get bored with the proceedings and come after your head. In other words, if after the votes get tallied nobody gets lynched, YOU will be eliminated instead. Do whatever you can to make sure the vote doesn't end up as a tie! If there is more than one debtor, and nobody gets lynched, it will be determined randomly which of the debtors gets eliminated.


If you are targeted by the Duke/Duchess, you may opt to pass your debt to the Duke/Duchess instead of choosing his vote the next day. You become a regular citizen, and the Duke/Duchess becomes a Debtor (they retain their Duke/Duchess role and powers, too). This change is permanent for the rest of the game.

 

Special objects

These objects grant abilities that are separate from those of normal roles. They may be possessed by player from any faction, as well as players that do or do not have special roles. They may be anonymously given to another player, if you wish, by sending a PM to the GM.

 

Seon: A certain number of players will be randomly be given Seons at the beginning of the game (each one unique). If you are given a seon, you may send PMs freely to other players (one at a time- NO group PMs allowed), but must include the name of your Seon at the start of every PM as sort of stamp of authorization. Also, you must include at least one of the GMs (preferably both) in the PM. you may send PMs to other players, but under the following restrictions:

  • Each Day or Night cycle you are allowed to pick one and only one other player to have a PM conversation with.
  • You may create a PM group with that player, but must include one (but preferably both) of the GMs (Herowannabe and Tulir) in the PM group as well. 
  • At the start of the first PM in each PM group you must include the name of your Seon, as sort of a stamp of authorization. (For example: PM from Sarene: "(Seon Ashe) Hey Raoden, we should vote to lynch Hrathen today.")
  • You and the other player may PM each other freely until the end of the current day or night cycle, at which point all PM conversations will be closed.
  • You are allowed to accept PM groups from other players who also have Seons- this is the only way in which you can have more than one PM conversation happening at a time.

You may PM the GM at any time during the game and designate another player to inherit your Seon if you die. If you die and do not have a living heir designated, then your Seon is lost from the game. Alternately, you may choose to gift your Seon to another player while the both of you still live and have not been taken by the Shaod (the transfer will happen at the end of the cycle in which you gift your Seon). If you are taken by the Shaod, then your Seon becomes corrupted and you may no longer send PMs. Corrupted Seons cannot be passed on to heirs.


***Players without Seons may NOT send PMs normally. However, if someone with a Seon PMs you, you may send ONE AND ONLY ONE PM in reply.


Poison vials: You recently received a package from your shady business contact in a distant country. The package contains a vial of poison, which if imbibed will duplicate the effects of the Shaod. Once during the game, during a night phase, you may select one player to poison (you may choose yourself if you wish). The next morning your target will appear in the write up as if she had been taken by the Shaod, and she will join the Elantrians. After two cycles, it will be revealed that she was merely poisoned, and she will leave Elantris and rejoin the main thread.

Note: During her time in Elantris, she will be unaffected by the “Elantrian body” rule and may not become a Hoed (see below). Also, there will be some Elantrian secrets that, if discovered, will not affect her.

 

You may not designate someone to inherit your poison vial if you die, but you may gift it to another player at any time by PMing the GM.

 

Korathi Pendant: A sacred treasure which you carry with you at all times. If you have a Korathi Pendant it will serve to protect you the first time you are targeted by the Cultists, the Gyorn/Odiv, or the Shaod, after which it is expended and may not be used again. If you are targeted by more than one of the things listed above, it will protect against only one of them, chosen in order of severity (Cultists first, Shaod second, Gyorn/Odiv last)You may not designate someone to inherit your Pendant if you die, but you may gift it to another player at any time by PMing the GM.

 

Elantris

The Shaod: Each night, most players have a small chance of being taken by the Shaod (Only the Gyorn and the Jindo Warrior are immune). If the Shaod takes you, black splotches appear on your skin and your hair falls out. You are filled with an insatiable hunger, and your heart stops beating. Upon seeing you the rest of society considers you dead and casts you into the city of Elantris. Becoming an Elantrian has the following effects:


Memories of your old life: Though you are now considered to be dead, you still remember your life before Elantris. You retain your roles and powers (unless stated otherwise), and your win conditions do not change.


Cast out: You may no longer vote or post in the main thread- though you may still read it. Instead, you will be inducted into the Elantris thread (which will likely take the form of a group PM between the Narrator(s) and the Elantrian players. It is highly unlikely that there will ever be more than 10 Elantrians so that should work just fine). If you have a role that requires you to target another player, you must choose your target(s) from among the other Elantrians (the exception is the cultists. As long as there is at least one non-Elantrian cultist remaining they may target any player to kill).


Resented by the living: Players in the main thread cannot view the Elantris thread (they generally don't care about the Elantrians), but they MAY still vote to lynch Elantrian players and/or target them with night actions. Elantrians MAY still be targeted by any and all roles and powers, by players inside Elantris or out of it, unless specifically noted otherwise.


If an Elantrian is targeted by the Duke, the Duke must select another Elantrian for his partner to vote for. The next day, the partner may choose any target for the Duke to vote for that the Duke is capable of voting for.


Elantrian body: Your body is weak and feeble, and your aches and pains never fade. If you ever receive 3 or more lynch-votes during a single day phase- whether from Elantrians and/or outsiders- you are injured to the point where your pain becomes unbearable. You then join the ranks of the Hoed (see below). If you receive more votes than anyone else, you are lynched (burned) and killed, just like any other player.


Gang rivalries: "Life" in Elantris is harsh, and there are many who would love to see you dead... Again. Elantrians may still vote to lynch during the day phase, but may only target other Elantrians. They cast their votes in the Elantrian thread. Their votes are added to the votes from the main thread to determine who gets lynched.


A ruined city to explore: Elantris was beautiful, once. The ruined city still contains many secrets. During each night phase, the Elantrians may vote on which area of the city to explore. Whichever area receives the most votes will be investigated by the group. There will be many areas to choose from (the Elantrians will be told ahead of time what they are), and each area will have a secret to be found. Some secrets will help the Elantrians, a few might harm them, and many will not do anything until specific other secrets are discovered (Note: secrets will randomly be matched up with areas at the beginning of the game, so you will not be able to rely on information from the book or previous games to tell you where to search). If the Elantrians are fortunate, they may very well unlock the secrets that can restore the city to its original majesty!


Elantrian specific roles:

Note: a handful of players WILL start the game as Elantrians. They will be randomly selected, and may include players from any faction/roles other than the Jindo Warrior and the Gyorn


Hoed: Your eternal pains are too much for you to bear, and your mind has snapped. You are still in the game, and still alive, but you may not vote or use any of your powers. You may still try to communicate by posting in the Elantris thread, but you will be limited to 5 words (or smilies or symbols) chosen by you at the time you become a Hoed. You may use those 5 words as many times as you wish, in whatever order, in as many different posts as you wish, but they are the only words you may use.


Note: Nobody will start their time in Elantris as Hoed. That's just too mean, even for me.


Veteran Elantrian: You have been in Elantris longer than most, and have become familiar with many of its nooks and crannies. Each night, you may PM the GM and target one unexplored Elantrian area, and receive a hint about the secret it contains. Each area only has one hint associated with it. Example: Galladon chooses to get a hint about the Library. At the end of the Cycle, he is told: “The Library is the headquarters for Shaor’s gang- the most barbaric gang in the city. You would be kayana to try to go anywhere near there.”


Note: At least one of the players who begin the game as an Elantrian will be a Veteran.

 

Clarification on Win Conditions

Jeskeri Mysteries Cult: They win if they kill all other players. They're your typical Spiked/Pahn Kahl/Mafia/Werewolf bad guys/Ghostbloods/17th Sharders.

Shu-Dereth: The Gyorn and Odiv win if they convert all remaining players. The converts do NOT share in the victory.

Citizens of Arelon: They win if they eliminate the Cultists and the Gyorn and Odiv. They're your typical good guys.

*The Lovers: Special win condition- the Lovers win if they survive to the end of the game, regardless of what faction(s) they are from.

Elantrians, Hoed, and Converts: These special conditions do NOT change your faction or your original win condition (For Example: Citizens who are converted to Shu-Dereth are still citizens, and win if the cultists, Gyorn, and Odiv are eliminated. Cultists taken by the Shaod are still cultists, and are trying to eliminate all other players. An Odiv who ends up as a Hoed still wins if all other players are converted. etc. etc. etc.)


Elantris does NOT need to be restored- nor do any particular secrets need to be discovered- for the Elantrians/Hoed to win, though they may be helpful.


The Derethi converts are technically not a part of the Shu-Dereth Faction (only the Gyorn and Odiv are) and do NOT need to be eliminated for Shu-Dereth to be defeated.

 

 

Clarification on "Actions"

Each player gets 1 action and 1 vote (if applicable) during each phase, be it a day or night phase. Typically, during the day phase players will use their votes to lynch someone, and any player with an ability that takes effect during the day will use that ability as her action. During the night phase, players with night-abilities will use those as their action for that night. Typically the only vote that happens during the night phase is for Elantrians, as they vote for which area to explore. Some abilities and effects do NOT require an action to perform, and may be done at the same time as performing your regular day/night action. 

 

As a general guideline, here are some lists with examples. They will be added to as needed.

 

 

The following abilities DO take an action to perform:

Day actions:

Using any vote manipulation power

Using the secret tunnels to cast a secret vote

Pirate: Choosing a new hostage

 

Night Actions:

The Cultist's kill (counts as an action for 1 of the cultists. The cultist decide amongst themselves who performs the action)

For the Gyorn/Odiv: Converting someone to Shu-Dereth

Pirate: Choosing a new hostage

Any night action that requires you to choose a target

 

The following abilities do NOT take an action to perform:

Using a Seon to start a PM with another player

Using a poison vial on yourself or another player

Using a Korathi Pendant (happens automatically)

Choosing the Duke/Duchess's vote the round after he/she has targeted you with their action

Dula: Choosing the lovers (at the beginning of the game), having votes against you reduced by 1.

 

 

EDIT: 4/21/2015 Tweaked a few things- namely, I changed the Seons so that they are a little easier for both the players and GMs to manage and keep track of. Also, I added a new item, because I felt like we needed more than two types of items in the game. All changes are noted in red.

 

EDIT: 5/14 Added some clarifications as to what counts as an action, how many can be performed, etc.
 

Edited by Herowannabe
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To all other future GMs out there:

 

As I've been working on setting things up for my Elantris game, I created what I consider to be a really nice and comprehensive Master Spreadsheet. It has spaces to enter character names, roles, and RP descriptions, and then it has spaces for up to 2 actions per player in each night phase, and each day phase has a space for an action, a cast vote, and an actual vote (for when you have vote manipulation roles at play. And, the best part is that it is set up so that when you record a vote you just select it from a dropdown list of all the available players in the game, and it automatically tallies all the votes for you.

 

I made a copy of the spreadsheet to keep as a template, and I figured I would share it with all of you, in case anyone else would find it useful:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qXtFKOJlFpvKSPqr6XpmeqNqOqD4F4QMjfllm7EnfGY/edit?usp=sharing

 

If you would like to modify it and/or use it in your game, follow these instructions:

  1. In Google Drive, go to "Shared with me" on the left.
  2. Right click on the Template, and select "Make a copy"
  3. The copy will appear in "My Drive" in Google Drive.
  4. Edit it to your heart's content.
  5. ...
  6. Profit!

 

Enjoy! :D Let me know if you find anything that doesn't work right or that could be improved! 

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If you would like to modify it and/or use it in your game, follow these instructions:

  1. In Google Drive, go to "Shared with me" on the left.
  2. Right click on the Template, and select "Make a copy"
  3. The copy will appear in "My Drive" in Google Drive.
  4. Edit it to your heart's content.
  5. Sell Copies to other GM's.
  6. Profit!

 

Found step 5 for you.  :D

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*Secretly sneaks in and hides Hero's post so that I have the only copy*

 

Step right up! Get your Official GM Spreadsheet here! 

 

Only $5.99 for a limited time! Get the best kept secret of GMs everywhere! 

 

 

Oh, man! I'm going to be rich! ;)

Gah! Curse you Meta! Cuuuuuuurse Yoooooouuuuu!!!! *shakes fist at the sky*

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To all other future GMs out there:

 

As I've been working on setting things up for my Elantris game, I created what I consider to be a really nice and comprehensive Master Spreadsheet. It has spaces to enter character names, roles, and RP descriptions, and then it has spaces for up to 2 actions per player in each night phase, and each day phase has a space for an action, a cast vote, and an actual vote (for when you have vote manipulation roles at play. And, the best part is that it is set up so that when you record a vote you just select it from a dropdown list of all the available players in the game, and it automatically tallies all the votes for you.

 

I made a copy of the spreadsheet to keep as a template, and I figured I would share it with all of you, in case anyone else would find it useful:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qXtFKOJlFpvKSPqr6XpmeqNqOqD4F4QMjfllm7EnfGY/edit?usp=sharing

 

If you would like to modify it and/or use it in your game, follow these instructions:

  1. In Google Drive, go to "Shared with me" on the left.
  2. Right click on the Template, and select "Make a copy"
  3. The copy will appear in "My Drive" in Google Drive.
  4. Edit it to your heart's content.
  5. ...
  6. Profit!

 

Enjoy! :D Let me know if you find anything that doesn't work right or that could be improved! 

 

Just in time for my game. I'll give it a test run and see how it goes :P

 

Only thing I can think of immediately is somewhere to put an inventory? Or at least, how much money/resources they have, since we have a number of games with a usable commodity in them.

 

*Secretly sneaks in and hides Hero's post so that I have the only copy*

 

Step right up! Get your Official GM Spreadsheet here! 

 

Only $5.99 for a limited time! Get the best kept secret of GMs everywhere! 

 

 

Oh, man! I'm going to be rich! ;)

Players hate him! Discover the best-kept secret in the GM industry!

Edited by Wyrmhero
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Only thing I can think of immediately is somewhere to put an inventory? Or at least, how much money/resources they have, since we have a number of games with a usable commodity in them.

Good catch. Fixed. :) Remember too that once you have copied it into your own Google Drive you are free to alter it and modify it however you want.

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Good catch. Fixed. :) Remember too that once you have copied it into your own Google Drive you are free to alter it and modify it however you want.

 

While we're on the subject, it would be good I think to just have a place to mark down who is dead (or even a general 'status')? Perhaps in the slot under the vote which has 'action' currently in it?

Edited by Wyrmhero
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