The Art of Game Creation

[A Joe in the Bush]

A ruined city to explore: Elantris was beautiful, once. The ruined city still contains many secrets. During each night phase, the Elantrians may vote on which area of the city to explore. Whichever area receives the most votes will be investigated by the group. There will be many areas to choose from (the Elantrians will be told ahead of time what they are), and each area will have a secret to be found. Some secrets will help the Elantrians, a few might harm them, and many will not do anything until specific other secrets are discovered (Note: secrets will randomly be matched up with areas at the beginning of the game, so you will not be able to rely on information from the book or previous games to tell you where to search). If the Elantrians are fortunate, they may very well unlock the secrets that can restore the city to its original majesty! This is the part of the game I'm most excited to play around with. Don't worry, none of the secrets will be game-breaking. Well, except for one really big one, perhaps.

Veteran Elantrian: You have been in Elantris longer than most. Each night, you may PM the GM and target two unexplored Elantrian areas, and receive a hint about the secret contained in each area. You may target an area more than once, and receive new hints (up to 3 per area) each time. You MAY target one single area twice in one night and receive two hints about that area.

 

What can be found in the Ruined sections of Elantris? Can they find Lerasium? Please?

[Herowannabe]

If the Elantrians figure out how to restore the city and their Aons before the game's end, do they gain any benefit from this? For example, are the Hoed healed? Can they participate in the regular day vote? Do they have any powers they can use, etc.?

What can be found in the Ruined sections of Elantris? Can they find Lerasium? Please?

PAFO (Play and Find out)

probably not Lerasium though. Probably.

[Herowannabe]

You might want to organize things a little more clearly when you post the Game. For one thing, I'm not really sure about all the Factions' goals. If I read things correctly, the Cultists want to kill everyone, the Derethi wish to convert everyone, the non-convert Arelons need to remove the Derethi (converts too?) and the Cultists, the Derethi Converts want to remove the Cultists (and the Gyorn/Odiv?) and the Elantrians have the same goal as the Citizens with the addition of restoring Elantris, right?

Sorry, let me clarify a little bit in the Original Post.

[Tulir]

This looks like it is going to be a great game.  Very nice job on everything.  I will report back later, once I have had some time to truly think about everything.

[Mailliw73]

Wow, Hero, this looks intense. I'm excited to play this one. good job!

[Metacognition]

 

 

Shu-Dereth

Goal: Convert all other players. If all the remaining players are converted, the game ends and the Gyorn and the Odiv are declared winners. All the converts lose.

Gyorn: Once per night, you may convert someone to Shu-Dereth. Also, once per game, you may choose one of your converts to be your Odiv. If your Odiv is eliminated, you may NOT select another one, so choose wisely. You may select your Odiv during any night phase, and you MAY still perform your normal conversion action during the same night. You and your Odiv may PM each other freely. You are IMMUNE to the Shaod. I always wanted to try the Piper role in Werewolves, but never had a large enough group of experienced players to make a go of it.

Odiv: When selected to be Odiv, you keep your role(s), objects, and abilities, but your win condition changes to that of Shu-Dereth. You gain the following night action: Just like the Gyorn, once per night, you may convert someone to Shu-Dereth. You and your Gyorn may PM each other freely.

Convert: You have been persuaded to believe in Holy Jaddeth. When you are converted, your role, your abilities, and your win conditions DO NOT change. At the end of each night, you will be sent a PM by the GM telling you who all of the other converts are. You will NOT be told who the Gyorn is, nor which of the converts is the Odiv.

 

I think they might have a bit too easy of a time of it, especially if they are capable of converting two people after awhile. That's roughly the same as giving the Cultists double kills. Of course, I haven't taken into account that they won't be able to convert the people in Elantris, but do they need to convert them as well? If not, I'll bet they'll win just by shear ability to convert so quickly. 

 

I'll do a reread of the rules and roles to make sure I didn't miss anything, but this is the first area I saw the possibility of being overpowered. 

[Tulir]

I think they might have a bit too easy of a time of it, especially if they are capable of converting two people after awhile. That's roughly the same as giving the Cultists double kills. Of course, I haven't taken into account that they won't be able to convert the people in Elantris, but do they need to convert them as well? If not, I'll bet they'll win just by shear ability to convert so quickly. 

 

I'll do a reread of the rules and roles to make sure I didn't miss anything, but this is the first area I saw the possibility of being overpowered. 

 

It does look like they have a chance to be overpowered, but the Priest can't be converted so they only win if the Priest is killed or lynched.  Seeing as that is a "safe" role, both the Cultists and everyone else would not want to kill them if they reveal themselves, as it makes the Gyorn have a really easy time at winning.  But you are right, with the Priest removed, they have the easiest win condition. 

 

 

If you are targeted by the Duke/Duchess, you may opt to pass your debt to the Duke/Duchess instead of choosing his vote the next day. You become a regular citizen, and the Duke/Duchess becomes a Debtor (they retain their Duke/Duchess role and powers, too) 

 

...

Elantrian specific roles:

Hoed: Your eternal pains are too much for you to bear, and your mind has snapped. You are still in the game, and still alive, but you may not vote or use any of your powers. You may still try to communicate by posting in the Elantris thread, but you will be limited to 5 words (or smilies or symbols) per phase. You may use those 5 words as many times as you wish, in whatever order, in as many different posts as you wish, but they are the only words you may use. At the beginning of each day or night phase you may choose a new set of 5 words. Have fun with this one, fellow Tineyes.

Veteran Elantrian: You have been in Elantris longer than most. Each night, you may PM the GM and target two unexplored Elantrian areas, and receive a hint about the secret contained in each area. You may target an area more than once, and receive new hints (up to 3 per area) each time. You MAY target one single area twice in one night and receive two hints about that area.

 

Does the debt revert back to you after one day, or does the Duke/Duchess keep it for the rest of the game?

 

Is there a chance for each Elantrian to become Hoed, or is it a role the start with immediately after becoming an Elantrian?

 

How would you become a Veteran Elantrian?  Is it a certain time period of being an Elantrian, or does it happen instantly?  Basically, the same question as the Hoed, just a different role

[Herowannabe]

I think they might have a bit too easy of a time of it, especially if they are capable of converting two people after awhile. That's roughly the same as giving the Cultists double kills. Of course, I haven't taken into account that they won't be able to convert the people in Elantris, but do they need to convert them as well? If not, I'll bet they'll win just by shear ability to convert so quickly.

I'll do a reread of the rules and roles to make sure I didn't miss anything, but this is the first area I saw the possibility of being overpowered.

Actually, they can target Elantrians. I should make that more clear in the OP too: Elantrians can be targeted by everyone's powers, they just can't use their own powers to target outsiders.

I based the Gyorn on the Piper from the Werewolves OMH: New Moon expansion. The piper charms (converts) 2 players per night until everyone is charmed, at which point the piper wins. The only change I made was to allow the Gyorn to pick a sidekick (the Odiv), and force them to split their power between the two of them. I did that 1) because it allows for more people to be doing stuff, which is always a good thing, and 2) because it mitigates the luck factor a little bit of the players randomly killing the Gyorn off early in the game.

There are a couple things that reign the Gyorn/Odiv in:

1) they can't kill anyone. Players they convert are still alive and in the game doing stuff, unlike the Cultists' victims.

And more importantly: 2) The converts know who the other converts are. If the Gyorn selects his Odiv too soon, it will be pretty easy to narrow down which convert is the Odiv. Near the end of the game, it's going to be harder for the Gyorn to hide because there will only be a few players who aren't converts. Ironically, the converts' collective knowledge is the Gyorn's biggest concern. though this reminds me of an addendum I need to make to the Gyorn.

Also, 3) the Cultists have a vested interest in tracking down and killing the Gyorn and the Odiv ASAP lest Shu-Dereth steals the victory away from the Cultists.

And lastly, 4), as has already been pointed out, Shu-Dereth can't win as long as a Priest is still alive.

Really, if anything, I think the Gyorn and the Odiv are fighting an uphill battle. it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Herowannabe

[Herowannabe]

Does the debt revert back to you after one day, or does the Duke/Duchess keep it for the rest of the game?

Is there a chance for each Elantrian to become Hoed, or is it a role the start with immediately after becoming an Elantrian?

How would you become a Veteran Elantrian? Is it a certain time period of being an Elantrian, or does it happen instantly? Basically, the same question as the Hoed, just a different role

(Apologies about the double post- doing multi-quotes is difficult on my phone)

All good questions, and I will clarify them in the OP. But in the meantime:

DEBT: it stays with the Duke/Duchess for the rest of the game.

HOED: Nobody will start the game as a Hoed, nor will they be made a Hoed immediately after being taken by the Shaod.Thats just too mean.

VETERAN ELANTRIAN: A handful of players will start the game as Elantrians. At least one of them will be a Veteran. There may or may not be ways for others to become a Veteran hidden among the secrets of Elantris.

I hope everything makes more sense now.

[Claincy]

Interesting, very interesting.

 

Here are my initial thoughts.

 

I think the Elantrians are horribly overpowered.The rules for exploring Elantris that you hid in that post would make it far too easy for them.

^I wonder if anyone will fall for that.

 

I find it interesting that the converts are working against the one who converted them But as a game mechanic it could be fun. Reminds me of cultists in Munchkin Cthulhu in some ways actually.

So if the Gyorn or Odiv tries to convert the Shu-Korath Priest they will get a pm saying they failed? Or they just won't appear on the list of converts.

Dula, yay Cupid! Ahem, do the lovers get a shared victory with the Gyorn and Odiv priest if everyone is converted? As their only victory condition is to "survive".

So the King/Queen is a revealed role from the start?

Pirate will be interesting. Though thematically it is odd that your hostage doesn't know they are one. I am guessing you are thinking of Vivenna/Denth.

I like the debtor. It should make things more interesting.

 

Oooh, the Hoed rules look challenging and fun.

[Tulir]

 

^I wonder if anyone will fall for that.

You are a mean mean person

[Herowannabe]

Interesting, very interesting.

Here are my initial thoughts.

I think the Elantrians are horribly overpowered.The rules for exploring Elantris that you hid in that post would make it far too easy for them.

^I wonder if anyone will fall for that.

I find it interesting that the converts are working against the one who converted them But as a game mechanic it could be fun. Reminds me of cultists in Munchkin Cthulhu in some ways actually.

So if the Gyorn or Odiv tries to convert the Shu-Korath Priest they will get a pm saying they failed? Or they just won't appear on the list of converts.

Dula, yay Cupid! Ahem, do the lovers get a shared victory with the Gyorn and Odiv priest if everyone is converted? As their only victory condition is to "survive".

So the King/Queen is a revealed role from the start?

Pirate will be interesting. Though thematically it is odd that your hostage doesn't know they are one. I am guessing you are thinking of Vivenna/Denth.

I like the debtor. It should make things more interesting.

Oooh, the Hoed rules look challenging and fun.

Re: Elantrians:

Hmm... You may be right. Maybe I should make them all start as Hoed.

Re: Converts and the Gyorn.

Yeah, that's an interesting quirk of the rules, but other than that Gyorn was just too perfect a fit for the Piper role.

Good question about the Gyorn and the Priest. I think what I'll do is just send a copy of the convert list to the Gyorn and the Odiv, and leave it up to them to identify who did or didn't get converted.

Re: Lovers: yes, they could potentially share a win with Shu-Dereth.

Re: King/Queen: their role will be secret at first. Whether or not it remains a hidden role will depend on the succession rules that the King/Queen comes up with.

Re: Pirate: Yeah, once again that's a quirk of the rules as I adapted the Hunter role to the forum-type game. In Werewolves, when the Hunter dies he can immediately choose someone else to kill. I needed a way for the Pirate's victim to die at the same time as the pirate, just in case the pirate player didn't log on for a while. Hence the hostage situation.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Herowannabe

[Metacognition]

Actually, they can target Elantrians. I should make that more clear in the OP too: Elantrians can be targeted by everyone's powers, they just can't use their own powers to target outsiders.

I based the Gyorn on the Piper from the Werewolves OMH: New Moon expansion. The piper charms (converts) 2 players per night until everyone is charmed, at which point the piper wins. The only change I made was to allow the Gyorn to pick a sidekick (the Odiv), and force them to split their power between the two of them. I did that 1) because it allows for more people to be doing stuff, which is always a good thing, and 2) because it mitigates the luck factor a little bit of the players randomly killing the Gyorn off early in the game.

There are a couple things that reign the Gyorn/Odiv in:

1) they can't kill anyone. Players they convert are still alive and in the game doing stuff, unlike the Cultists' victims.

And more importantly: 2) The converts know who the other converts are. If the Gyorn selects his Odiv too soon, it will be pretty easy to narrow down which convert is the Odiv. Near the end of the game, it's going to be harder for the Gyorn to hide because there will only be a few players who aren't converts. Ironically, the converts' collective knowledge is the Gyorn's biggest concern. though this reminds me of an addendum I need to make to the Gyorn.

Also, 3) the Cultists have a vested interest in tracking down and killing the Gyorn and the Odiv ASAP lest Shu-Dereth steals the victory away from the Cultists.

And lastly, 4), as has already been pointed out, Shu-Dereth can't win as long as a Priest is still alive.

Really, if anything, I think the Gyorn and the Odiv are fighting an uphill battle. it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

For the most part, I can see what you're going for now. I'm still not sold on basically only one role standing in the way and the Gyorn probably won't survive, but the Odiv has a pretty good chance of it then. That will be interesting when that happens. They've all been working together to find the Gyorn and then they have to turn on each other to find the Odiv! 

 

Thing is, it could be a quick game if the Priest happens to die early, which is entirely luck based. If one of the other roles couldn't be converted as well, then the Gyorn has a better chance of surviving simply because the Converts will have to decide between three possible candidates in the late game and then you have a back up role which can stop the Shu-Dereth from getting an easy win due to an unlucky lynch early. 

 

Everything else looks amazing and I've already called dibs amongst the other mods to make sure I get to play in it! (Sorry Wilson and Gamma!) If I see anything else or I come up with a scenario where a role might unbalance things, I'll let you know. 

[SirVarrock]

I've returned!  (And no, not on Nalthis, unfortunately.)

 

@Meta I'm still interested in being a GM although I haven't made many changes to my rules, but it doesn't look like you've looked over the changes I made yet.  Right now I come to the point where, until the end of August, I may periodically drop off the face of the planet depending on what my summer job requires me to do.

[little wilson]

For the most part, I can see what you're going for now. I'm still not sold on basically only one role standing in the way and the Gyorn probably won't survive, but the Odiv has a pretty good chance of it then. That will be interesting when that happens. They've all been working together to find the Gyorn and then they have to turn on each other to find the Odiv! 

 

Thing is, it could be a quick game if the Priest happens to die early, which is entirely luck based. If one of the other roles couldn't be converted as well, then the Gyorn has a better chance of surviving simply because the Converts will have to decide between three possible candidates in the late game and then you have a back up role which can stop the Shu-Dereth from getting an easy win due to an unlucky lynch early. 

 

Everything else looks amazing and I've already called dibs amongst the other mods to make sure I get to play in it! (Sorry Wilson and Gamma!) If I see anything else or I come up with a scenario where a role might unbalance things, I'll let you know. 

 

I think with the Jeskeri involved, though, it'll balance it out. There's always an element of luck (good or bad). I mean, The Jeskeri could just as easily kill the Odiv right after the Gyorn names him. Or the gyorn. There are a lot of elements here, working together and against each other, and I think it sounds absolutely fabulous. And I might even be able to play it, since Gamma said he might be sitting out. And I really want to. And I'm honestly not even sure what I'd want, although I think starting as an Elantrian would be kind of awesome. Exploring the city sounds like a ton of fun. And the Hoed sounds like a blast.

[Renegade]

I’ve been thinking about a few neat ideas for a Steelheart game (which I’ll probably post the rules to eventually), and I realized that some of these ideas can be integrated into other future elimination games, to add some elements of risk and tension, and to balance out the roles in the game.

 

Secret Abilities/Researchers: Like the Inquisitor role, there are a few roles that have secret abilities.  Everyone is aware that these roles exist, but they do not know anything about these roles' abilities.  However, a Researcher can ask for information about one of these secret roles each night.  The GM will give them some information about that role’s abilities.  The Researcher can research the same role a second time to fully understand everything about the role.  In the Steelheart game, the first time a Researcher researches a particular Epic, they learn of that Epic’s powers.  The second time they research an Epic, they learn of the Epic’s weakness.  If there are multiple Researchers, their research does not “stack.”  So if one Researcher researched a particular role on the first night, and a different Researcher researched the same role the next night, they would get the same information.  The second Researcher would not get the "secondary" information.

 

Black Market: This is a fun addition.  Each day, along with voting, each person may go to the Black Market to try to buy one (or possibly more than one) item.  Along with the write-up, a list of items available for that day (probably 3-4) will be provided, along with a description of each item.  These items have various abilities, and many will be unique.  Nobody can use more than one item during a single day phase or night phase.  (With the exception of a few "passive" items, such as the Mobiles in the Steelheart game, which give the user the ability to send PMs to other Mobile-holders.)

 

Buying an Item: The person who bids the highest price for a particular item by the end of the day phase receives that item.  (I’m not sure if bidding will be done via posting or PM.)  If it is a tie, one of the highest bidders is randomly chosen to receive the item.  Whoever receives the item must pay the number of bids they bought it for, in votes.  Each bid counts as one vote against the buyer.  For example, if BillyBob paid 3 bids for a Shardblade, and he received it, he would get 3 extra votes against him in the write-up.

My favorite thing about this particular concept is that it allows "weaker" players (ones without special abilities) to potentially become about as powerful as the stronger players.  However, you may only use one item/phase, which prevents any single person from becoming too overpowered.

Any thoughts?

 

[A Joe in the Bush]

On the Black Market, You Might not want to use Votes. The "Safe" Player, (See Aodan in Game 4) Could Just Bid 5 For an Item, and Have his Posse vote for Someone Else, Letting him Have Infinite Monies. Maybe Instead, Let everyone Start with Various Amounts of Money, and they Get money by Killing Evil Team People, or By Participating in a Lynch.

[Metacognition]

I've got to agree with Joe on the Black Market, but I love the idea! 

 

Something that I've seen used is that every post a player makes (not counting double posts and such) earns them a point of currency. This encourages people to be active in the thread and lets them earn points for items. It also means that someone couldn't just take over the Market. If they bid on an item and win it, they'll need to be incredibly active if they want to win the next bidding war, since everyone else will still have their points. And if you're on team evil and you want a lot of points, you're going to want to be very careful of all your posts so that you don't slip up and reveal something to everyone. 

 

At least that's one way to work it.  

[Gamma Fiend]

I've got to agree with Joe on the Black Market, but I love the idea! 

 

Something that I've seen used is that every post a player makes (not counting double posts and such) earns them a point of currency. This encourages people to be active in the thread and lets them earn points for items. It also means that someone couldn't just take over the Market. If they bid on an item and win it, they'll need to be incredibly active if they want to win the next bidding war, since everyone else will still have their points. And if you're on team evil and you want a lot of points, you're going to want to be very careful of all your posts so that you don't slip up and reveal something to everyone. 

 

At least that's one way to work it.  

I thought about using that idea, because in my one game Vials were basically a sort of 'currency' that people could earn from participation. But allowing people money for every post they make just favors the people who have the most free time. While we don't encourage inactivity in games, sometimes stuff happens where people just can't make it on the site for a day, or even be able to check in and post multiple times a day.

I definitely think people should be rewarded for the content of their posts, i.e., how much they contribute to the discussion, does their arguments have merit, etc. I was thinking, if somebody voted, made at least one intelligent, thought out post (RP or game discussion), and sent in any day/night orders (even if saying they're not using their role that cycle) then they are eligible for any reward or pay out in the currency system.

[Herowannabe]

Personally I like the black market system as Renegade has outlined it. The problem I see with Joe's scenario is not that the "safe" player can bid as many votes as he wants, but it's the fact that there is a "safe" player at all. You'll note in my Elantris rules I made sure that all the good-guy roles can't be definitively proven to other people.

But even if there IS a safe role, they still can't necessarily bid as much as they want, because then it makes it really easy for the bad guys to tack on a couple extra votes and get the safe role lynched.

[A Joe in the Bush]

How about, We have them use Rep as Currency? For every Upvote they Get, they Receive One Monies.

[Herowannabe]

How about, We have them use Rep as Currency? For every Upvote they Get, they Receive One Monies.

That seems like it would lead to all sorts of bad consequences, like people down voting other posts or bargaining to up vote you if you up vote me or wanton up votes for no good reason or so on.

[Gamma Fiend]

Also, that would still give whatever Mafia team an advantage, as they could consistently upvote eachother's posts to earn more power. (While this could potentially be used to then expose them by them doing this, it's still slightly unfair. Not to mention possibilities of alt account abuse, etc.

[little wilson]

Yeah, that's just begging for abuse of the rep system, and these games have already tweaked with the system enough as it is.

I love the Black Market idea. As for payment, buying with lynch votes could work, but I think having some sort of currency system in place would work a little better. It's just figuring out what type of currency system and how it's distributed to make it balanced for all the players. There could be a few different tiers to assigning money at the beginning of the game, like maybe a reverse order of experience (so least experienced/first-time players get more than those who've been in many games). And other things. So everyone starts with a bit, encouraging everyone to stay in the game and participate when they can (since obviously not everyone can be online constantly). Just an idea, though.

[A Joe in the Bush]

Okay, Black Market Idea. All the Characters start with the Same amount of Cash. Except there's  New Role, Rich Character, Who starts with Twice the Normal. Whenever Someone Kills someone else, they Take their Money, unless that Money Is stored in a Bank or Something. If someone get's Lynched, their Money Is divided between their Voters.