The Art of Game Creation

[Claincy]

Lifeless

The timing based idea wasn't good, but it served well enough as a place holder to talk about the rest of the ideas to do with creating and using lifeless. The bidding system is certainly an interesting idea, I've played board/card games before that used that kind of system for part of the game. I want to think a little more on how balanced the lifeless would be if they automatically defend you till you send them to defend someone else. I guess if the Pahn Kahl wanted to kill someone whom they suspected had a lifeless they could always just throw an awakened rope at them first.

 

Idrian Monk

How exactly are they announcing in the name of Austre that someone is innocent without revealing themselves? But aside from that it is kind of like a super-powerful soother role in that it effects all Idrians, potentially soothing 10-ish people at once. Forcing them to reveal themselves to do so was to stop it from being overpowered. The situations when they are most likely to use it would be when the vote is swinging between 2 different people, forcing all Idrians not to vote for one nearly guarantees that the other will die. I might add a clause that the ability has to be activated with at least 12 hours remaining during the day to give Idrians a chance to change their votes.

 

A player trading system is out, the game is rather complex already And sadly there is a limit to how much time I can spend on it.

 

Purchasing Breath

I think I assumed Hero meant higher than without really thinking about it. Lower than the roll wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. The proposed lottery system is an interesting alternative. I don't really like it for the lifeless, but for purchasing breaths it has some advantages such as simplicity and letting me easily control the number of breaths entering the game. One addition I would make though is that anyone with 3 or fewer breaths gets 2 entries into the lottery. They cannot win 2 breath in one night, but they have a higher chance of winning one.

[Metacognition]

Idrian Monk

How exactly are they announcing in the name of Austre that someone is innocent without revealing themselves? But aside from that it is kind of like a super-powerful soother role in that it effects all Idrians, potentially soothing 10-ish people at once. Forcing them to reveal themselves to do so was to stop it from being overpowered. The situations when they are most likely to use it would be when the vote is swinging between 2 different people, forcing all Idrians not to vote for one nearly guarantees that the other will die. I might add a clause that the ability has to be activated with at least 12 hours remaining during the day to give Idrians a chance to change their votes.

 

Like I said, my biggest concern with them having to out themselves is that not only are they known, but it would be easy enough for the Hallendren to find out who the Idrian Spy is as well. The Idrians have no counter to the Hallendren Spy like that. That means that the Pahl Kahl and the Hallendren would be able to find out two roles within a single situation. On top of that, the Idrian Monk can't know for sure that the person they're saving is innocent or not without some other role telling them that they are. More than likely they're not going to use their ability unless they're sure, but I like to account for every possible situation that could come up. It's a minor qualm though, so if you think that's a fair trade off, I'm fine with it. I just see ways to abuse it and if I can see them, then it's possible for it to come up in game. 

[Claincy]

Like I said, my biggest concern with them having to out themselves is that not only are they known, but it would be easy enough for the Hallendren to find out who the Idrian Spy is as well. The Idrians have no counter to the Hallendren Spy like that. That means that the Pahl Kahl and the Hallendren would be able to find out two roles within a single situation. On top of that, the Idrian Monk can't know for sure that the person they're saving is innocent or not without some other role telling them that they are. More than likely they're not going to use their ability unless they're sure, but I like to account for every possible situation that could come up. It's a minor qualm though, so if you think that's a fair trade off, I'm fine with it. I just see ways to abuse it and if I can see them, then it's possible for it to come up in game. 

I do see your point. Though the identities of the agents means almost nothing to the Pahn Kahl as they are honestly better for the Pahn Kahl to leave around than normal people with an equal quantity of breath as they cause more dissension.

 

The more important point though is that for the Hallendren to find the Idrian agent in that manner would require them all, Hallendren & Pahn Kahl, to agree to switch their votes to that particular Idrian. If only a couple choose not to it would still narrow the spectrum true. The thing is, if the Idrian Monk is smart they will choose a time to use their ability when the outcome of the vote is very much contested. Those who are voting for the other person may very well not want to switch and convincing them could be very difficult. Beyond that they know that the Idrian monk isn't Pahn Kahl that at least helps the case of the person they are defending. So long as the Idrian monk was only using their power when it was important, I doubt that the Hallandren's would be particularly likely to switch votes en-mass.

 

Does that make sense or am I just rambling?

[Metacognition]

No, it makes perfect sense, but we're still working with shoulds and coulds and wouldn'ts and such. If we expect a certain role to be played a certain way, then there's a good chance that it will get played in a different way. 

Take Fain from Gamma's WoT game. If I were in that role, I wouldn't convert someone until it was the same as effectively killing someone from the other factions. If I survived that long already then I've got a good shot of winning the game. If I don't, then my faction probably wouldn't have helped too much anyways. I doubt that's the idea that he had in mind with the role though or how it would be played. 

 

Just saying, if you go into the role only expecting it to be used a certain way, there's a good chance that it will be used differently. In the end, my view point doesn't matter though; if you feel like you've thought it through and you like how it plays, then by all means use it. It's not bad by any means and its benefits balance out its drawbacks. Like I said before, I like the role, so if it fits and fills your needs, don't let me stop you. 

[Claincy]

I do really appreciate your input. You make a good point regarding roles being used differently to how you expect them, that is a standard game design motive, no matter how carefully you design it the players will always try to do things you never thought of

 

In this particular case chances are that the monk wouldn't delliberately try to expose their own agent, but even if they did or gave an opportunity and the Hallendren's took it and discovered the agent the game isn't neccesarily over for that agent. Because at that point the agent is no more of a danger to the Hallendren's then any ordinary Idrian so they don't have particularly more motive to kill them. Beyond that they now know that the agent isn't a Pahn Kahl, making them a very valuable player for a completely different reason. Instead of being an important player in Idrians vs Hallendrens they are now an equally important player in Pahn Kahl vs everyone

 

Hmm, we almost have these rules nailed down satisfactorally, a good thing as it will be starting soon.

[A Joe in the Bush]

So Idrians and Hallandrians both win if the Pahn Khal Die correct? Or do they also have to kill each other?

[el_warko]

IF the Pahn Kahl are vanquished, peace will descend over the land.

 

And everyone will get a kitten.

 

True story.

[Claincy]

IF the Pahn Kahl are vanquished, peace will descend over the land.

 

And everyone will get a kitten.

 

True story.

 

Almost, but not quite. There are an unfortunately small number of cats around. The players in the nation with more players remaining will all get kittens. The others will have to make do with bunnies.

 

The stakes are high!

 

Oh, and I've updated the rules in the thread. Thanks for your input everyone

[Gamma Fiend]

Well this game is off to a pretty great start. I think things should be very interesting from here on out. Nicely done, Claincy!

Since Clan's Nalthis game just kind of raised the bar....
I've been taking another look at my Flaring Metal game, since besides a few small things, I have most of my WoT game ready to go. I definitely ran into quite a few balancing problems in the Flaring game, though, when I tried to add in a few other things. What do you guys think?

Allomantic Metals come in units of Vials (V) in this game. Each player will start with a set numbers of Vials, and can burn them at different rates. You can Burn your metal, using up 1Vial and use it's regular effect, or you can Flare your metal, using up 2Vials of metal, or Super-Flare, 3 Vials
When players with Roles send in their orders they let the GM know a)the Target of their Role, and Whether they're just Burning or Flaring their metals.
With some of the new mechanics, if 3 or more vials of metal get burned at once (Nicrobursting or Duralumin for the Mistborn) then there is a Super-Flare effect of the metal. I suspect these will be rare.

Starting with the third day's write-up, each misting will have their metals replenished by 2vials, and will be replenished every other day after that. If any Misting manages to Flare their metal for 4 (5?) Orders in a Row, they can become a Savant with that Metal, and they can get a +1 effect for however many vials they burn after that. But if they stop burning that metal or run out, they become injured (can't take an action for 2 cycles – day and night) in the write-up and revealed.




Thug: You can burn Pewter to enhance your physical prowess. No longer a passive ability.
1Vial – Survive any one lynch or Night Kill
2 vial – Survive any one attack, and can injure somebody and make them incapable of using their Role or power for the next 2 Cycles (Day and Night)
3 vials – Survives and one attack and kills a chosen target instead. If nobody was targeted then becomes a random roll.

Tineye: You burn Tin and can walk the mists, allowing messages to be spread. No longer a passive ability
1vial – Players are allowed to send Private Messages for the next cycle
2vials – Players are allowed to send Private Messages for the next 2 cycles. Tineye can send a message for the GM to post in the write-up
3 vials – can choose up to two target players, can read any Private Messages between them if there are any.

Smoker: Burn Copper, being able to cloud peoples powers and hide their allomantic pulses from Seekers, and make you and your targets immune to emotional allomancy
1 vial – You are Copperclouded. Seeking results come up as 'Nothing'. Can't be effected by Emotional Allomancy. (Show up as 'Nothing' for Seeking results, immune toEmotional allomancy)
2 Vial – You can choose yourself and an additional target for Copperclouding
3 Vials – You and your Coppercloud target show up as 'Villagers' with Seeking results, and are still immune to emotional allomancy.

Seeker: Burning bronze, you are able to detect Allomantic Pulses and can target somebody at night.
1Vial – Target somebody at night and can determine their Role
2 vial – Target somebody at night and can determine their Role and alignment
3+ vials – Can pierce through targets Coppercloud, if they have one up to read their Role and Alignment

Coinshot: You burn Steel, pushing on Metals. You get a Night Kill action
1vial: Target somebody at night to kill them
2 vials – Target somebody at night, Counts as 2 hits against them.
3+ vials – Target somebody at night to kill (2 shots) and somebody else to injure. If no secondary target then a random roll for the target excluding you.

Lurcher: Burning Iron, you Pull on metals. You can choose a target to protect at night
1 vial – Protect yourself from a night kill
2 vials – Protect somebody else from a night kill
3 vials – Protect a target from up to 2 kills, and yourself from a night kill

Rioter: Burn Zinc, able to riot people's emotions. Can change people's votes during the day
1 vial: Change somebody's vote. Your vote is negated
2 vials – Change somebody's vote and your vote isn't negated.
3 vials – Change somebody's vote, your vote isn't negated, and negate any one vote against you


Soother: Brass
1 vial – Negate somebody's vote. Your vote is negated
2 vials – Negate somebody's vote, your vote isn't negated
3 vials – Negate somebody's vote, your vote isn't negated, and negate any one vote against you.

Leecher: Burns Chromium. Can target somebody once per night and deplete all of their metal reserves. The second time you target the same person, you get revealed in the write-up*
1 vial – Deplete somebody's metal reserve. Their action still goes through. If you target a Mistborn, one of their metal reserves are randomly.
2 vials – deplete somebody's metal reserves and cancel their night action. If target is a Mistborn, it's the reserve of the metal they are using that you prevented that gets depleted.
3+ vials – Deplete all of somebody's metal reserves, even the Mistborn's, and cancel their action. Can target the same person multiple times without being revealed.

Nicroburster: Nicrosil misting, can make your target burn up all of their metals at once (broken?)
1 vial: Target burns off all of their metals if they use them before the next write-up.
2 vials: Target burns off their metals, if not using any, then a random target is chosen and their powers used.
3 vials: ???




Duralumin: Only the Mistborn gets this metal, and they start of with 1vial of it. When they burn Duralumin, they can chose another metal to burn, and they use up all of their vials for that metal, but get a +1 effect for it. (So 1 vial would give a Flaring effect, 2vials would give a Super-Flare). Can only be replenished by a Metallurgist.

Mistborn: Starts off with a random metal, but then can pick one to use each night cycle after that, has to use one of each before can pick one a second time. Starts of with 1vial of each metal, and a vial of Duralumin.

Metalurgist: Target player during the day and replenish their metal supply. You don't know what metal you're giving them, they don't know who's giving them the metals. If you target a Mistborn, they get a random metal. You supply them with 3 vials of metal. Can't target the somebody again until you've replenished two other people's metals first.

I dunno. With the 3+ vial effects, I feel like things are just getting too crazy. I could probably just nix the Duralumin and nicrobursters. But I want to keep leechers, because that's a nice role-blocker.
But I feel like powers might be getting too strong, and it might not be fun for any regular villagers in a game like this. They would definitely need to out-number the number of people with Roles, so that would have to be a huge game to pull off anyway.


 

[A Joe in the Bush]

Can we make a Game where Literally Everyone has a Power? That would be a Fun game.

 

And Gamma,

 

Nicroburst 3+ Vials, Target burns off all their Metals Publicly. Basically reveals their Role.

Edited April 6, 2014 by The Only Joe

[Wyrmhero]

Gamma, I think that if you're weakening the defensive role (the Lurcher), you should weaken the Coinshot somewhat as well? I'd say Injure/Kill/2*Kill (as in, the third flare counts as two hits against someone). This could also be important because now the Thug can hit someone, the offensive roles outnumber the defensive ones. Though does the Lurcher protect someone from a Thug like that?

 

But currently as it stands, as a Coinshot I'd probably just not bother with flaring my metals at the second level at all - If I wanted someone to not have any actions, I'd just kill them. As a Coinshot, I would just use one charge at a time, and then flare to three if I'm unlucky enough to hit a Thug and have to attack him again in order to make sure.

[Herowannabe]

Interesting Gamma. If it was me, I would change the three levels to 1) normal burn, 2) flaring, 3) duralumin/Nicrosil burst, meaning that the third level was only available with the help of duralumin and Nicrosil. Also, the duralumin/Nicrosil burst should consume all of that players metal vials (at least for the one metal that they were burning in the case of the Mistborn).

[PorridgeBrick]

Interesting Gamma. If it was me, I would change the three levels to 1) normal burn, 2) flaring, 3) duralumin/Nicrosil burst, meaning that the third level was only available with the help of duralumin and Nicrosil. Also, the duralumin/Nicrosil burst should consume all of that players metal vials (at least for the one metal that they were burning in the case of the Mistborn).

I concur on this. Also, with all the offensive roles, I think Lurcher should be stronger.

1 Vial: Lurch yourself or a target.

2 Vial: Lurch yourself or a target, with 2x strength.

3 Vial: Same as before.

Basically, each level of Lurcher should be the exact counter to the Coinshot's level. They are paired metals, after all.

Edit: Maybe edit Thug too, to avoid overlap with the Coinshot.

1. Survive 1 attack, becoming injured afterward and unable to use your role again.

2. Survive 1 attack, injuring yourself and the attacker. Both are revealed in the writeup, though not which is which.

3. Survive 1 attack, killing the attacker without injuring yourself. Once you get your metals back, you can still continue using your abilities.

Edited April 6, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Herowannabe]

I would change tin too:

1) allows all players to send or reply to one and only one PM this cycle

2) allows all players to send or reply to as many PMs as they wish during this cycle

3) same as 2), and the Tineye can "listen in" on one player's PM.

[PorridgeBrick]

I would change tin too:

1) allows all players to send or reply to one and only one PM this cycle

2) allows all players to send or reply to as many PMs as they wish during this cycle

3) same as 2), and the Tineye can "listen in" on one player's PM.

I would maybe power that up a little.

1. Your #2.

2. Your #3, except you can only hear that player's outgoing, not incoming, PMs, and you do not know the recipient of those PMs.

3. You can listen in on all PMs, but with the same restrictions as my #2, and you do not know the senders either.

While #3 may seem OP, this is actually fine if it's something that can only happen from a Nicroburst or Duralumin.

Oh, and speaking of Nicrosil.

1. Nicroburst one target, using up all their metals.

2. Nicroburst one target. Even if the target has < 3 vials, their power tonight will have 3 vial strength.

3. Nicroburst two targets, at the same strength as #2.

Edited April 6, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Gamma Fiend]

Thank you guys. Those suggestions really helpful. And yeah, the 3rd level of things is what really screwed me up on the balancing. Because I had everything worked out for two, but then when I decided to try adding in Duralumin and Nicrosil, that's when things got whacky. I did have those as the only way to 3+ super-flare at first, and it looks like I'll take it back down to that. That would make things more fair, I think.

If I do keep the 3+ super-flares from Duralumin and Nicrobursting, do you think I have the Metals balanced out enough? Would 1 or 2 metallurgists in the game, and with the replenishing of metals every other write-up be enough, do you think? I don't want people to constantly be running out, but also don't want them being able to constantly just Flare their metals (unless they get help from a Metallurgist)

[Gamma Fiend]

Double-posting for (somewhat) new content. I put the Flaring Metal game on the back-burner for now, and worked out some of the kinks (I hope) of what I'll do when I GM.

A Wheel of Time Elimination:

 

Villager:A regular, vanilla character. Who needs powers to be a hero?

Darkfriend: A group of dedicated servants of evil. You and your small group have been given orders to infiltrate and destroy this town from the inside out.

Forsaken: The Leader of the Darkfriends. When Viewed shows up as a 'Villager', or they can perform an additional Night Kill for the Darkfriends. If they perform the extra night kill, their actions can be Tracked the next day and and Viewing on them will reveal them as 'Forsaken'

Wisdom: Has honed the powers of saving people to almost an instinct. Can target somebody once per night and protect them from one Night Kill.

Wolfbrother: You feel the call of the Moon and your nocturnal brethren. Can target somebody to Hunt and Kill once per night.

Viewer: Can see images and auras around people. Once per night can target somebody and find out their Role and Alignment.

Thief-taker: You can smell evil and find out past crimes. During the Day Cycle, you can target somebody and at the beginning of the next Night Cycle, you will find out who they targeted the Night before.

Whitecloak: As a Child of the Light, it is your duty to root out criminals. Once per night you can Detain a target. This prevents any Night Actions performed against the target, and prevents the target from performing any Night Actions. Can not target self.

Dreamwalker: You have mastered the World of Dreams. At night you can submit an anonymous message for the GM to post in the write-up. As long as you live players can send PM's.

Aiel-blooded: You may not look it, but you have hardened Aiel blood in your veins. You can survive one lynching or Night kill. Your role will be revealed in the write-up, but not your alignment.

Chaneller: A practiced user of the One Power. The first night you get 1 of the 5 weaves, and can chose the next ones you use every night cycle after that. Can't use a weave a second time until you've used all of them.
Air- Hands of Air protect a target from Night Kill. Not yourself
Fire – Hurl a Fireball at target, performing a Night Kill.
Water – Cast Mask of Mirrors on target at night, Obscuring any Viewer results and makes you Untrackable the next day Cycle
Earth – Use Earth to harden your skin, allowing you to negate any one possible Night Kill against you.
Spirit – Lash out at somebody with Spirit, cancelling their Night Action.


Padan Fain: You carry with you the Taint of Shadar Logath. At night you can target a player to convert. You have a limited amount of players you can convert, and if the Tainted outnumber all of the other players, they win. Can not Convert the Forsaken.
*Give a chance of Converted players losing their Role?

Town Mayor: During the day, the town can hold public elections to elect a Town Mayor. The Mayor's vote counts for two towards the lynch. They stay Mayor until a new one is elected or they die.

Dragon's Fang: At night, all of the players without Power Roles (Vanilla villagers and vanilla Darkfriends) can send in orders to scrawl a Dragon's Fang on a players door. The player with the most votes for a Dragon's Fang has it appear on their door in the write-up. If there is a tie, no Dragon Fang gets scrawled on any doors.
A player with a Dragon Fang scrawled on their door has an automatic extra vote tallied onto any other votes for them at the results of the lynching.

What y'all think? I decided to take out vote altering roles to add some of that power to the people without Roles with the Dragon Fang and Mayor role.
Typical win conditions apply for the Darkfriends and Villagers. Not exactly sure what, if any 'safe' roles will be besides the Wolfbrother. Maybe Thief-taker and Whitecloak too?

Edited April 13, 2014 by Gamma Fiend

[Mailliw73]

What do you guys think about these roles for my next game?

You are all members of the Alethi lighteyed nobility in the warcamps. Many of you have secret items in your possession. There are a few of you who are hiding other secrets. Whether you use those for good or for evil, that is up to you. You have been infiltrated by some nefarious Ghostbloods who are attempting to steal a soulcaster and a shardblade from you. Killing them all before they obtain those is the only way to succeed. There is also another thief in your midst. He is trying to use at least half (6) (Do you think this is a good number?)of the types of your secret items.

Items:

Class 1 attack items:

-Shardblade: can kill one person a night. The person is killed immediately and has no chance for a Death Cry.

-Pain Knife: kills but the victim lasts another cycle?

-Soulcaster: (any ideas?)

Class 1 defense items:

-Shardplate: can defend against two attacks or one shardblade attack.

-Painrial: can protect someone else from one attack (except Shardblades)

-Half-Shard: Protects against one normal attack (not including Shardblades)

Class 2 items:

-Spanreed: This is the only way for anyone to use PMs. Players with a Spanreed are the only people who can start the messages. The GM must be included in all messages to make sure there are no rule violations. The PMs can contain any number of people

-Alerter: Alerts you to any actions performed on you during the cycle.

-Emotion bracelet: The holder of this item can choose one person a night and will be informed of any actions taken on them during the cycle.

-Reverser: The reverser allows the holder to change one person's vote each day cycle.

Other roles:

Thief: Chooses one person a night to steal an item from. (I feel like this is too powerful of a role. Should I add in a random chance factor?)If a person with multiple items is chosen I will roll to see which item the thief gets. Shards cannot be stolen by the thief. After the thief uses the item, it disappears.

Ghostbloods: They get to conspire on a secret google doc. They get one group kill a night plus any items they may have.

Shardbearers: Any person who holds one or more shards can challenge someone during the day. That day, the votes can only be between those two people.

Artifabrians: Can choose one person a night to get any item except Shards or a Soulcaster. That person will receive the item and can use it for the next cycle. After that it will be taken away.

Spy: the Spy can choose one person a night cycle to spy on. They will be told one of the items that person holds.

If a person is killed at night, their items go to their killer. (maybe only one item?). If a person is lynched, their items to the King, the GM, who rolls to see which player who voted for that person gets the items. A player can only hold one item of each of the 12 types at a time. A player can also only have one of any of the Class 1 Defense and Attack items at a time. Ex: Bob can have a Shardblade and a half-shard shield, but if he kills a player with a Pain Knife or Painrial, he doesn't get to keep it.

Death Cries: When a player is killed in any way(except with a Shardblade), they get a chance to send one last message to the group as a whole. The messages must be less than 200 characters and sent to the GM to be posted to the rest of the group.

[Herowannabe]

@Mailliw: Re: thief role

What if you made it so that the thief had to name the specific item and the specific player he wants to steal it from (Ie: I'm going to try to steal a shardblade from Meta)? That would reign the role in a little bit.

[Gamma Fiend]

Yeah, what Hero said. Or maybe even guess just the Class of the level item you want to steal.
I've been trying to think through how all the items would interact with eachother during a game, and there will be a lot of craziness going on. Maybe make the Soulcaster a kind of role-blocker?

I would say if the Ghostbloods, or anybody working together with someone else, can get a bunch of items between them, there might so some small chance of 'broken' or uber-protection then, though. But I'm not sure.

But I definitely think you have a nice start to a game though. Definitely wanna see how this will work out.

[Metacognition]

I thought we were friends, Hero. Why you want to steal from me?   Fine then! That's the last time I give you a cool title!

[Mailliw73]

Thanks guys! Keep the ideas coming, please. Gamma, I too think this will be very interesting, as no ones powers are permanent and can be taken by anyone. And everyone has the chance to get major powers. I'm liking this idea much more than my previous one.

[Herowannabe]

I like you Meta, I really really do. I just like your shardblade more.

[A Joe in the Bush]

It's a good Idea Maw, And as for the Thief, He has to guess what level of Item. As in, attack 1, defemse 1, misc 2.

This seems a lot like my game. . .

[Mailliw73]

You're right, Joe, I didn't realize it, but it is similar. Though most items are different or have different uses.

What do you think about this for the Thief role? Which is better?

Thief: Chooses one person a night to steal an item from. There is a 1/3 chance that the burglary will fail. If a person with multiple items is chosen I will roll to see which item the thief gets.

-OR-

The thief can name a person and an item they want to steal from that person each night. If that person holds that item, the thief steals it.

Also, are there any other ideas for the soulcaster? I like the ideas so far, I just want to make sure I consider lots of ideas. So far, I'm thinking either a role blocker or appearing to do nothing or have no items to the seeker type roles. And what about the amount of items the thief needs to steal to win?

Edited April 15, 2014 by Mailliw73