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Proffejor

Was Pattern the power source of the Davar Soulcaster?

19 posts in this topic

I have a theory that may might need some scrutiny.

The Soulcaster Shallan has in The Way of Kings was cut, and it stopped working. What if the soul casting fabrials are just prisons that hold a Spren capable of soul casting? Maybe I am overthinking, but it seems to me that all Soul Casters would need to contain some form of intelligence that could exchange Stormlight in Shadesmar to effect an object's change into one of the ten essences. Shallan is an intelligent human that could not convince a stick that it wanted to be fire, so we know that the objects can be willful, if not stubborn. Either there exists some  trick to force a soulcasting, or an intelligence must present an argument to convince the object to change. If this is true, a Lightweaver's Cryptic could potentially be bound into a soulcaster for others to use, without needing to have a bond.

Soulcaster Fabrials are a delicate pattern of chains and gemstones. I imagine them as a web of delicate lines with gemstones interspersed. What if they function as a web and hold a spren in between the cognitive and physical realm? Shardblades are the remnants of a broken bond and a formerly bound spren in some form of agony, which is why those sensitive to a bond can't touch blades without hearing the screams. It does not seem unlikely that Soulcasters are similarly remains of Spren, but in a more active capacity. If this is true, then cutting the soul caster might free an imprisoned spren.

We are told that Shallan did not attempt to summon Pattern as a blade after the death of her mother, due primarily to that trauma. She Imagines that the blade is imprisoned in the safe in her father's study. But this does not explain fully why the Cryptic was never visible to her until the events in The Way of Kings. (Assuming that the pattern she is looking at on the ceiling of her quarters  before she first heard the "What are you?" question was actually the Cryptic.) Why did Pattern seemingly not appear to a young Shallan after the death of her mother as she was growing up? It's possible she just wished him to leave her alone, but then why dld he come back later?

Could there be a procedure that would have allowed her father to bind Pattern and create a Soulcaster fabrial? If the Ghostbloods knew of an ancient secret like this, and found that the Davar daughter had a bonded spren, possibly because her mother talked about her child's supernatural nature while looking for a "cure", it does not seem impossible that they might offer Brightlord Davar the method, and use of the resulting fabrial, in exchange for his allegiance. Perhaps a young Shallan would rationalize an event like removing her bonded spren as her father taking her blade, and putting it away in a safe.

It always seemed incongruous to me that Lin Davar, portrayed as an ambitious man who would do almost anything to get a stronger position, did not attempt to gain anything from his daughter having a shard blade. I realize that the Radiants were looked at with scorn, and that it is possible he did not want his House tainted by their memory, but would he have not looked into how the shard blades of the past were separated from their owners originally? It would have solved multiple problems at once. Would questions along these lines eventually lead him to the Ghostbloods? If he somehow took advantage of his daughter after finding out she was bonding a Cryptic, and manipulated events so that he could get a soul caster made from the Spren, that would seem to me to be more in keeping with his character.

Pattern lost his memories at the time of Brightness Davar's death, possibly because his bond with Shallan was weakened by her wanting nothing to do with him, and, at the same time, Shallan went mute and became antisocial, presumably due to guilt. I propose that Brightlord Davar somehow took Shallan's spren after the death of his wife, and used knowledge gained from the Ghostbloods to imprison Pattern and create a fabrial for exploitation. I also think that the forced breaking of the bond was what damaged Shallan's young mind and fractured Pattern's memories. 

Are there any holes in this theory that I am overlooking?

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The answer is no, as stormlight is the power source. But Pattern may still be what made it function.

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I dunno, it just seems too... complicated. Would all Soulcasters be like this? And if not, then why would the Davar Soulcaster have to be different? If they do, how do they capture all the other Truthspren?

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The trick to forcing objects to soulcast is by bribing it eith stormlight. A strong cognitive presence/identity probably makes it easier, but you still have to pay the item in stormlight.

Mraize makes it sound like the Ghostbloods "loaned" Lin Davar one of their Soulcasters. I really dont think they're able to show up there and bind Pattern without him getting away, and have you seen how confusing fabrial science is to a non-practicioner (Lin pre-soulcaster)

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I would imagine that the creation of new Soulcasters is like the creation of new Shardblades, unheard of in current Roshar. The understanding has been lost, as people haven't bonded Spren of any kind since the recreance. The existing Soulcasters in Roshar would all be ancient hand-me-down Fabrials from that time. This seems corroborated by things from the books such as Kabsal telling Shallan that Alethkar could declare war on Terravangian if he took Jasnah's Soulcaster. If a new ones could be created, there would be a market for them, even if the Vorin church strived to keep them rare. I even think that Navani mentions that creating new Soulcasters has eluded artifabrians at one point.

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6 minutes ago, Proffejor said:

I would imagine that the creation of new Soulcasters is like the creation of new Shardblades, unheard of in current Roshar. The understanding has been lost, as people haven't bonded Spren of any kind since the recreance. The existing Soulcasters in Roshar would all be ancient hand-me-down Fabrials from that time. This seems corroborated by things from the books such as Kabsal telling Shallan that Alethkar could declare war on Terravangian if he took Jasnah's Soulcaster. If a new ones could be created, there would be a market for them, even if the Vorin church strived to keep them rare. I even think that Navani mentions that creating new Soulcasters has eluded artifabrians at one point.

Sure, but the last time new Soulcasters were created would probably have been around the Recreance. I really doubt the ancient Knights and their spren would have thought it morally okay to trap a sentient spren like that.

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7 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Mraize makes it sound like the Ghostbloods "loaned" Lin Davar one of their Soulcasters.

This is true. I am making the assumption that the Ghostbloods would lie about having owned the Soulcaster originally, as admitting that they had a hand in making it would bring disaster if it came to the attention of the church. Jasnah was targeted by the church, largely because she (seemingly) had a soul caster. I think her Heresy would have been an unfortunate quirk of the noble line if she did not seem to possess a soulcaster that threatened their monopoly.

7 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I really dont think they're able to show up there and bind Pattern without him getting away, and have you seen how confusing fabrial science is to a non-practicioner (Lin pre-soulcaster)

I imagine that the way that Shardblades are "made" of the corpses of Spren, and the imprisoning effects of the soul caster would be related. It would be surprising if it did not require some action on the part of the surgebinder, as Sil, The Stormfather, and Pattern have all referenced acts of surgebinders going towards "killing" them. I believe that it will come to be shown that a certain action by a surgebinder will weaken a bonded Spren. This has already been hinted at in Kal's relationship with Sil.

I think Shallan did something, likely at the instruction or machinations of Lin Davar, based on a script written by the Ghostbloods. This act hurt Pattern the same way Kaladin harmed Sil in WoR. Perhaps it was as simple as killing her mother. This might have made Pattern into an inert shard blade, which Lin was able to place in the safe until the Spren could be bound into a soul caster. Perhaps, in the safe itself was an empty Soulcaster prison waiting to accept the Spren that Shallan had bonded with, given to Lin by the Ghostbloods. Soulcasters are an intricate pattern of chains and gems, and it makes some sense that a weakened liespren may be comforted by being in a shape with a regular geometry, even if that shape is actually a prison.

The largest supposition I feel that I make is assuming that the Ghostbloods would have the knowledge of how spren bonds work better than the spren themselves have. It does make sense to me that this may be the case, but there is admittedly little evidence to support this.

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24 minutes ago, Eki said:

Sure, but the last time new Soulcasters were created would probably have been around the Recreance. I really doubt the ancient Knights and their spren would have thought it morally okay to trap a sentient spren like that.

I agree that the knights wouldn't think it okay, but I assume that ALL Soulcaster fabrials were created at a similar time as the Shardblades were made. Before that time, people WERE soulcasters, and they started showing up before each desolation, so soulcaster fabrials weren't needed as a tool. The ancient Knights didn't trap the spren, they just left the spren as shards and the shards faded and weakened. In Dalinar's vision he sees more shards than he calculates may exist in present day Roshar. What if a large portion of those discarded blades were turned into Soulcasters by people in the next century? Not all blades would be suitable of course, only Liespren or Shadowspren could be made into Soulcasters, but soulcasters are useful tools. If I am correct, if any Surgebinder was to make contact with an actual soulcaster that contained a bound spren, instead of a false one, or a broken one, they would hear screams in their heads as those that contact Shardblades do.

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Pattern had nothing to do with that soulcaster. The soulcaster was not "forged" in the Davar masion, but it was given to them by the Ghostbloods. How would have Ghostbloods catch Pattern?

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26 minutes ago, marianmi said:

The soulcaster was not "forged" in the Davar masion, but it was given to them by the Ghostbloods.

The Ghostbloods could have given Lin Davar the information of how to turn his daughter's spren into a soulcaster, if they had such knowledge. The may even have made him agree that it would become theirs after his death, and he might have agreed, if it was the only way he saw to save his house. Lin takes a blade from his daughter, and later has a soul caster. The blade he takes is actually a Spren that can manage the surgebinding of Soulcasting. Is it so far to go to think he was told a way to make the Spren into a Soulcaster by the Ghostbloods?

26 minutes ago, marianmi said:

How would have Ghostbloods catch Pattern?

If I am right, they had Lin Davar convince his daughter to give up Pattern in a similar way the Knights Radiant gave up their shards. This left Pattern as an inert blade that could be bound into the Soulcaster, which I contend is a specific shape that can bind liespren inside, making them function as the go-between into Shadesmar to deliver Stormlight and convince objects to transform.

This is still just a theory, but one I like toying with.

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I think pattern and his kind have been there with Shallan since she killed her mother. The light in the safe was in her head, a lie she told her self.

When pattern gets Andolin to reserve a room for her and tricks/gets her to recreate the scene when she killed her mom:

"A painting had appeared, part of the illusion, and it was outlined with a white glow. Something was hidden behind it...."

"...she pulled aside the picture, revealing a strongbox in the wall beyond. She raised a key, and hesitated. "Mother's soul is inside." "Mmm... no. Not her soul. That which took her soul." Shallan unlocked the safe, then tugged it open, revealing the contents. A small Shardblade..."

"...Father took you from me," Shallan said, "and tried to hide you in here. Of course, that was useless. You vanished as soon as he closed the strongbox..."

Shallan believes that her and Lin were not thinking clearly, that is why he tried to hide a Shardblade. Of course he probably later opened that strongbox and saw that the blade was not there. Shallan probably kept seeing the glow out of guilt, as some kind of reminder of what she had done in spite of her suppressed memories. Shallan is very good a lying to herself and not seeing or hearing what she doesn't want to see or hear. I guess being around Jasnah, wanting to soulcast made it easier for pattern/lie spren get through her denial?

The Ghostbloods seem pretty good at what they do, I don't think getting a working soulcaster and training/gettings someone to use it is beyond them. It seems more likely to me than trapping pattern to make there own soulcaster.

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Interesting theory. Other than a number of concerns people have brought up already, I see another problem. You theorize that the soulcaster was a prison for the spren by virtue of its structural design, and that by breaking the structure, the spren is freed. That would mean that even if you fixed the structure, the soulcaster would still not work since the spren would no longer be trapped within. However, Navani seemed to have implied that she has had experience with fixing broken soulcasters, soulcasters which had been broken in a similar method. As such, the idea of the breaking of soulcaster freeing the spren falls through. The only counter-arguments I can see are that Navani has not dealt with any soulcasters which have broken in the same manner, freeing the spren, or she knows the secret or rebinding spren, both of which I doubt.

As such, I don't think the theory fits.

Relevant WoR passage.

Quote

Shallan traced it with her eyes, noting Jasnah’s explanation of the broken Soulcaster and her request for help.

This happens more often than you’d think, Navani had replied. The failing likely has to do with the alignment of the gem housings. Bring me the device, and we shall see.

-Words of Radiance, Chapter 1

 

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1 hour ago, Proffejor said:

The Ghostbloods could have given Lin Davar the information of how to turn his daughter's spren into a soulcaster, if they had such knowledge.

No they would not :) This kind of information would not be given away so easily :) 

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On 10/18/2016 at 6:25 PM, Proffejor said:

This might have made Pattern into an inert shard blade, which Lin was able to place in the safe until the Spren could be bound into a soul caster. Perhaps, in the safe itself was an empty Soulcaster prison waiting to accept the Spren that Shallan had bonded with, given to Lin by the Ghostbloods.

I'm pretty sure that Brandon has confirmed that Pattern pretty much vanished as soon as he was placed in there (and therefore released by Shallan, essentially).  Not completely certain, but I feel like I remember seeing that.

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and the problem with Shallan convincing the Stick to change is simple - had nothing to do with her intelligence or Stick being stubborn - it was simply that Stick is Stick and cannot be changed

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On 10/21/2016 at 8:31 AM, Jondesu said:

I'm pretty sure that Brandon has confirmed that Pattern pretty much vanished as soon as he was placed in there (and therefore released by Shallan, essentially).  Not completely certain, but I feel like I remember seeing that.

Good call. Found a WoB on the matter which disproves this theory entirely.

Quote

QUESTION

Where was Pattern before Shallan drew him?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He was around. The bonding process had started when Shallan was young but then she pushed him away and he withdrew mostly to the Cognitive Realm until the bonding was started again and she pulled him fully into the Physical when she drew him

[Source]

Since WoB says he was in the cognitive realm mostly, it contradicts the theory that the soulcaster was holding him in the physical. Also, it says he disappeared because she pushed him away, not because he was trapped by some other force. There probably would've been a RAFO or something vague if he was actually trapped elsewhere instead of just being away.

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Excellent. Thank you for your help in testing my theory (and disproving it.)

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It is an intersting theory.  

Was the Davar house's loaner soulcaster working post Shallan killing her mother? If so, Pattern would not have been trapped in the soulcaster.  

I'm not even sure that House Davor had a soulcaster when that went down.  Rather he came into the soulcaster after his house was already in ruins, and the Ghostbloods needed a puppet to insert as High Prince of Jah Kaved.  

 

I will concede that the timeline may be murky, amd it might still be the case.  

 

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46 minutes ago, Massik said:

It is an intersting theory.  

Was the Davar house's loaner soulcaster working post Shallan killing her mother? If so, Pattern would not have been trapped in the soulcaster.  

I'm not even sure that House Davor had a soulcaster when that went down.  Rather he came into the soulcaster after his house was already in ruins, and the Ghostbloods needed a puppet to insert as High Prince of Jah Kaved.  

 

I will concede that the timeline may be murky, amd it might still be the case.  

 

We don't know when he received the soulcaster. In fact, I think you may have misunderstood the theory a bit since it postulates that the soulcaster only existed after Shallan killed her mother, as after that moment Pattern disappeared from our knowledge for 10 years. The theory is that Pattern was used in the construction of the soulcaster, therefore the soulcaster couldn't exist before that point.

In any case, if you read my most post before this one, I provided a WoB which explained where Pattern was during this time.

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