gender appeal in sci-fi/fantasy books

[writelhd]

So, Quiver and I ended up in some good private message discussion, started by the "Restrictive Gender Roler" thread over in the Stormlight Archive forum.  And because it was good discussion, I thought to bring it to the forum at large, although I realize that with this particular topic, some ire and controversy can arise.  It is not my intent to start a discussion that descends into characterizations and stereotypes, but I do think the subject of gender in fantasy and science fiction is really interesting. I also find that we 17th Sharders are an astute, open-minded, and respectful bunch, equal to the task of great discussion. So, with a request for everyone to tread politely, and to remember that stereotypes are often inadequate descriptions of real people, let's wade:
 

Quiver supposed that fantasy and Sci-Fi might be very male dominated.  I argued, as a female and a lifelong consumer of both, that this is an erroneous perception.  I don't know what exactly the split is, I would believe that men still do outnumber women somewhat, but I'm betting it's something like 60/40, at the very most.  Certainly, as authors go, there are numerous female legends in the field:  JK Rowling, Ursula Le Guin, Anne McCaffrey, Madeline le' Engle, to name just a few.
 

And well, this got me thinking about all the fantasy and sci-fi sub-genres out there, what sub-genres may in fact be more dominated by one gender and why, what aspects of fantasy may perhaps still say pretty (from my feminist perspective) annoying or even degrading things about women's roles and if that does still turn some of us off to it, and what aspects of fantasy and sci-fi really do seem to attract a very wide audience.
 

I think Brandon's work in particular has aspects that draw a very gender diverse audience, and Wheel of Time as well.  Why is that?  What are those aspects?  What other books have those aspects? Discuss!
 

I think it comes down to interesting, heroic, complicated, and sympathetic characters, both male and female, bringing diverse skills and perspectives to complex and giant-scope problems.  It comes down to in-world gender roles that feel believable, and that aren't (well, overly) degrading of one gender.  And I also think it comes down to having enough people.  Having one woman only in a sea full of men, even if making her The Most Interesting Woman In the World, isn't as compelling a read to me personally as these stories that have people like Shallan AND Jasnah AND Navani, or Moiraine AND Egwene AND Nyanaeve AND (list all the rest of them here...) doing interesting, diverse, and different things in ways that are about them as a character.

 

(Moderator note:  I wasn't sure where to put this.  It relates to Brandon, because I want to talk about his works, but it relates to "other books" too because I want to talk about sci-fi/fantasy books in general, so I was torn.  Do you think this is the right place for this thread?)

Edited January 24, 2014 by writelhd

[Moogle]

I'm curious: how do you feel about the portrayal of women in A Song of Ice and Fire? They lack power and are basically sold as brood mares (it's a medieval society), and yet there's quite a few PoVs devoted to female characters, who do in many ways have power.

[Quiver]

As writelhd says, this topic is one born largely out of my own ignorance. While I find the issue of gender fascinating, particularly in fiction, it means I might not post here much, or might do so just to give my own impressions or responses- impressions and responses which may, very well, be wrong. As a matter of fact, I hope they are, and encourage everyone to call me out on my misunderstandings.

 

One of the things I think is important from the opening is the isolation of female characters. I can't speak for science-fiction, but it's always been my impression that fantasy novels tend to be male-dominated casts, with only a handful of women. The problem I have with that is that it makes the female characters stand out more, simply on the basis of their not being male- which opens them to a degree of scrutiny and idolisation that I don't think would be applied otherwise.

 

For instance, Eowyn is the only female soldier in the Lord of the Rings. Her motivation (or part of it, at least) is that she's been raised in a society that glorifies war, but considers it a pursuit for men. Theoden trusts Eowyn to lead their people in his and Eomer's absence, but given how he previously ushered her aside at Helm's Deep, it's unlikely that this had anything to do with her leadership abilities, and everything to do with her sex. But the books point out that, if nothing else, Eowyn can fight. She can fight well. I may be confusing the films and the books, but I believe she fought some Uruk-hai who made it into the Glittering Caves. Her crowning moment may be her killing the Witch King, but that was in the middle of the largest battle the Third Age had ever seen. Are we expected to believe that was her only kill at Pellenor?

Then, after the war, she renounces being a warrior, and decides she wants to make things grow. It puts her in line with Arwen and Galadriel, who also reject open warfare to act as support for the male heroes through the provision of tokens. When I was discussing this with writelhd, she commented that Eowyn

 

 

She was one of vey very few women and yet wasn't really "Token Woman", her story was uniquely hers.  Although there was the fact that she did it all for tragic love of a man (Aragorn), who did not return her love so she found another man (Faramir), who convinced her to give up warrior-ing and become a gardener instead.  And in general her  warrior-awesomeness wasn't really seen by Aragorn, Eomer, Merry, etc and even Faramir as heroic, so much as a tragic ailment of her distressed mind, properly cured once she got the right man in her life.

 

My response was that I didn't see her that way. Tolkien had a deep (arguably blinding) love of nature. Further, to me, the claims that Eowyn hanging up her shield is sexist because it indicates women can't, or shouldn't, be soldiers misses the point that, with the exception of Aragorn, the rest of the Fellowship retired from it's warfaring days. With Tolkien's affection for nature and the fact that Sam (arguably the hero of the story) practices the profession Eowyn will be engaging in, her actions make her more idealised. Tolkien went to great effort to show just how destructive war, even necessary war like the War of the Ring, could be; the natural counterpoint to that is the emphasise the value of creation.

 

But that's only one interpretation, and I can see the flaws it makes too. Rather than having Eowyn be her own character, it idolises her in the same way the text has previously idealised Arwen and Galadriel. The Lord of the Rings presents a mix of noble (Aragorn, Frodo), ignoble (Gollum) and flawed (Denethor, Boromir) male characters. It's easier to analyse a variety of presentations and work out what the authorial intent is. When all your female characters fall squarely into the 'noble' bracket, it's sexist in a different way. It reduces women by putting them on a pedestal and calling them perfect. It suggests that women are not like men. Men can run the gamut of personalities, ideals, wants and dreams. Women, unanimously, are perfect.

 

I think that might be why, in some fantasy, there's a tendency for the woman to be an extraordinary character; she's already been singled out by her gender. So we get women in fantasy who are princesses, or queens, or assassins, and are the only major female character to appear in that book, period. The cliche blueprint for a fantasy novel is "An ordinary farmboy must save the world from a Dark Lord". No doubt some of the commentators can point me towards the ordinary farm girl stories, but are any of them really 'ordinary' in the way the typical male protagonist is? I remember the third Shannara book had a female lead, but she was chosen because of her magical abilities, while the heroine of the Deed of Paksenarrion ran away to escape marriage. Those aren't really the typical reasons for the 'ordinary farmboy' story, and they still emphasise that women are, in some way, more special than men.

 

Actually, on that point, another personal story; a few days ago, I was talking to FeatherWriter about an RPG campaign (which I recommended everyone interested in this topic to read, since it portrays a diverse mix of gendered and sexual characters). I wasn't talking about the campaign though; I was asking her if she considered something I took from the campaign and used for a short story to be plagiarising. 

It wasn't a character, or even a character concept. Our works were completely different genres. I was worried because, after reading a story with a strong, female military officer, I wrote a story which featured a strong female military officer as a secondary character. Her response to me was, basically, that their group didn't own the rights to female military officers, and I was free to use that profession if I wanted, but it made me realise something. I had been intending on using a military commander anyway, it was just that my outline had made him a generic male figure. I was worried that reading the Sydney Scroungers had compelled me in some way to make that character female, to try and make her stand out... because I was buying into the idea that male was the default, and women are special. They stand out simply by virtue of being women.

 

But the audience, I think, is so conditioned to that that we don't really notice it until it's called into question. Is A Song of Ice and Fire sexist? The society certainly is, and the women have been shaped by it, so it's not surprising a concern one of the women expresses is that her son's wife have "good, child-bearing hips". In the early books, Cersei is portrayed as a scheming woman; politically ignorant in some areas, but capable of ruling the kingdom in her husbands absence. When we get to her own POVs, though, she comes across as petty, politically ignorant, and focused on the worst of sexist tropes- part of what motivates her is a fear that she will be replaced by a queen described as younger and beautiful, and a desire for power.

 

Would Cersei be considered sexist? Maybe. But unlike Lord of the Rings, A song of Ice and Fire has it's range of female characters. We have 'good' female heroes (Cat, Sansa), female 'villains' (Cersei, Melisandre) and others who are hard to classify (Arya, Asha). We have stories of women liberating themselves from bondage in Dany, of women actively rebelling against societal roles like Brienne, and even have a hint of a more egalitarian society in the presence of the Martell family.

 

And even within those classifications, Martin plays with our understanding of how those tropes should act. In A Game of Thrones, Cat is resentful of her husbands bastard, and takes plenty of opportunities to make her displeasure clear, including at one point wishing him dead. Cersei loves (or at least appears to love) her children, and her villainy is understandable as the product of a narcissist using the only means they have in a restrictive society to get what she wants. Brienne is one of the most noble characters in the series, holding to the ideals of knightly virtues that the series has thoroughly undercut; she's admirable, but almost niave. And Dany might be a success story, but it's one with it's own fair share of horrors, many of them perpetrated by her.

 

 My point is that I wouldn't consider Martin sexist for his presentation of a medieval society, because his characters and not unanimously strong to the point of idolisation. They're human, which means they are a mix of strong and weak, virtue and vices. Or, to use an example which doesn't focus on the darkest parts of humanity, The Way of Kings, with it's female cast interacting with one another rather than being defined with men. Those make more interesting female characters to me.

 

EDIT For that matter, am I alone in thinking that female authors open themselves to criticism of author insertion than men do? Consider Twilight, where Bella has been the subject of some... debate. Or J.K.Rowling, who is probably the most influential YA novelist of our time, but whose books are focused on a core team of two boys and a girl. Rowling has a range of female adults, but barely any female children, none of whom get the attention of the main trio.

 

Would Harriet Potter and the Sorcerers Stone be equally appealing to audiences? Do male leads appeal to female readers the same way female ones do? Is there a preference? If Mistborn was printed with all the pronouns backwards, how would that effect how we react to the book? Brandon says in his annotations that making Vin a girl was the moment it clicked for him, but would that still have the same effect of she was the only he in The Lady Rulers final empire? Would that open him to accusation of sexism just as much as having no female characters would? Or having the same book written by a female novelist would?

 

DOUBLE EDIT: Not to imply that the only way women stand out is because of positive attributes. Obviously, you could easily find a number of outright sexist insults about them. I was just thinking about how I find it kind of interesting that, at least to me, female characters have a particularly sharp double-edged sword.

Edited January 25, 2014 by Quiver

[Gamma Fiend]

I've always thought of it along the lines that, yeah, right now there do seem to be more men dominating the field, so to speak, and that's largely of old school gender roles beliefs that definitely need to be shed. There are more and more prominent female writers coming to light every year it seems (I can't think of any, but they're out there I'm sure). I've just always figured, if there are more male writers then there will just be more Male Characters in the stories. I think it's more of a level of 'comfort zone' for authors. I just think it's a little harder to exactly capture the opposite genders' perfect state of mind, so some tend to stay away from writing opposite gender characters. I know I at least do, when trying to write. I can barely get my train of thoughts down on paper properly, couldn't imagine trying to guess my sister's or girlfriend's or whatever while I'm at it.

Also, another thing to note, I think: Most fantasies obviously tend to be in the older, more Dark Ages type feel. And the best way to capture those types of cultures? Look back at history and look at how biased and discriminatory men have been towards women throughout the ages. It's a major theme in our history, makes sense that it will be one in stories with similar settings.

And just about Game of Thrones, there does seem to be some cultural bias against women in the books, but to juxtapose that the female main characters are very powerful women. Almost as if to spite society. Or at least Arya does, and really, who cares about any of the other females in the series?

[name_here]

I think quantity is definitely an important issue. Ultimately, if there are only a few female characters in the story, it inherently sterotypes women just because there aren't very many of them. However, if it includes a broad selection of different female characters, then it does not make a general statement.

 

I should note that lately I've been reading/watching/playing a lot of media from Japan, and for whatever reason female characters seem much more common. A good bit of it does still stereotype women to an extent, particularly in the "harem comedy" genre*, but there is a definite range. For instance, there is actually one with an "ordinary farmgirl" secondary protagonist, Attack On Titan. Mikasa Ackerman got basically adopted into the main character's family after a notably traumatic incident, and then a couple years later her adoptive mother died messily in front of her as the city got overrun while her adoptive father had left on a mysterious business trip and is presumed dead. She's pretty violently overprotective of her last surviving family, and she is incredibly competent.

 

There are also some series that basically flip the ratio without particular explanation. For instance, there's Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, in which the main cast seems to get progressively more female-dominated as the series goes on and major male characters slide into the background. There's also A Certain Scientific Railgun, which is a spinoff of A Certain Magical Index and has only a couple male characters who aren't from the original or almost completely incidental. The funny thing is, I hardly noticed.

 

Railgun is also interesting in that it's a perspective flip; the title character had come off as incredibly hostile and short-tempered in the original, but in her own story it turns out it's just that the main character of Index, Kamijo Touma is incredibly good at infuriating her. She's generally pretty friendly and easily embarrassed, with a fondness for cute things, and proud of her abilities and accomplishments but doesn't look down on people who lack them. However, she is a bit overly fond of getting into fights. Her temper in the original is because Touma can negate her abilities effortlessly (long story) and doesn't seem particularly impressed by them. We also get a better look at what happens when she's actually angry instead of just annoyed or frustrated.

 

*Basically the setup is that for some reason the male protagonist winds up with a lot of female admirers, but for whatever reason doesn't realize they're interested in him, they're too flustered to admit it or he has a special talent for ruining moments, and wacky hijinks occur. There may also be robots, magic, and swordfights. Most of the time it's driven by the male character being incredibly oblivious and having terrible luck with timing.

[Cracknut]

From my experience most degrading, boring and stereotypical female character's are written by women. If a novel has female author as well as female main character I simply don't read it. It has 99.99% chance that I will hate it and I really don't have enough time to read 1000 books to find one that I like... I love good female characters and women tend to ruin it for me You might think I don't have an idea what I'm talking about but my two best reading buddies are girls and they've both read like 20-30 novels by female authors for every book written by male author they've read and I've heard more then enough about those. Even read some of them and every good premise that I felt really excited about was ruined by main character in first 20-30 pages, every time It would've been cool if women started writing fantasy novels about their main characters, instead of hot males they're fantasizing about. I know there are good ones but sadly whenever I go looking for new books to read female author is an instant turn off for me... That might be reason why males are dominating fantasy genre, not because there aren't enough women reading/writing fantasy, its just that fantasy written and read by most women rarely are actually about fantasy... 

And of course books written by men rarely have more female characters then male ones, simply because its so much harder to write a good female character when you're male... And of course books written by women have more male characters as well, because as I've said above, hot male characters are what make 99.99% of those books work.

Edited February 22, 2014 by 213

[Tamzin Ashevai]

Off the top, I have to admit that I haven't fully read through every previous post in this thread. However, I did scan them. Even so, I have to say that the work of those authors I read most are typically American, but equally female and male. Further, I sincerely, seriously appreciate when a female author can FULLY write a male protagonist (i.e.: Jacqueline Carey). By the same standard, I also appreciate the male author who can FULLY write a female protagonist (i.e.: Brandon Sanderson). So, due to my own experience, I must argue against your opinions, Shardbearer. I sincerely wish we weren't in the same 17th Shard category ... but that's selfish and errorgant of me. In this instance, I don't care. I harbor some serious concerns with regard to some of The Queen's Wit's & 17th Sharder's statements. To me, it seems that there's some literary sexism going on here ... BLATANTLY! Please ... please, please ... chill! (Or chull ... ?)

[Cracknut]

Erm.. most women keep writing two dimensional characters and stories driven by sex and I don't like to read those stuff, so I instantly turn into sexist? It's a fact as far as I know, female author + female main character = book aimed ONLY on female audience.

You'll have one super independent girl with average looks(Always) who doesn't care about boys. Then we get at least two super hot male characters, one of them has to be a good guy while another one is a "badboy" womanizer with "can take mc anytime I wish because I'm so manly that no panties can stay in their places in my presence" attitude. We also get some world destruction plot thrown in for a good background while main character thinks how many children she wants(always) from badboy(most of the times). There's also super evil boss, who also is a sexy male AND also develops "love" for mc and it turns into competition for all these male characters and of course first place prize is mc. Oh and there will also be a super hot chick, with all the cliches thrown in and she tries to steal all the attention from mc and ends up as a main antagonist and rival of mc even though mc is too cool to acknowledge her. There's also second way of doing it, you get averagely sexy heroine and turn her into fake badass, she's totally out of league for everyone as far as she knows, but guess what?

This is all good. I have no problems with it. But I don't want to read it. And I haven't read or heard about a novel written by woman that has female main character and wouldn't turn into something that I described above. Of course there will be some good ones but will I be able to find them in my lifetime? Maybe a dozen, if I read hundreds of books I didn't wanted to read. So yeah I'd rather stick to male authors and if I read books written by women, I'll go with those that have male main characters.

Edited March 3, 2014 by 213

[Quiver]

Tamzin, would you mind explaining how my comments are sexist?

 

Curse this infernal lack of tone differentiation! I don't intend to sound defensive, as much as I'm concerned. I love reading female characters, and tend to emphasise with them a lot more than I do male ones. That said, the truth is that I'm still learning when it comes to a lot of stuff; so if my stuff is wrong, or offensive, or insulting then... let me know, so I can take steps to fix it and my attitude.

 

Again, sorry if I sound defensive because... I'm not. I'm worried about what it says about me. 

 

EDIT: Though 213, I do think you're waaaaay off base with that. Depending on how you define "fantasy" the Hunger Games (female protagonist, female author) would be considered a counter-point. Depending on how you define stories, you might want to consider, for instance, Gail Simone's comic books, particularly Birds of Prey and Red Sonja. I haven't read the latter, but the first one is pretty minimal on romance (and Superheroes are a fantasy construct).

 

But, even just sticking to fantasy novels, two I've read sort of recently don't fall into the pattern.

Sarah J. Maas Throne of Glass novel (now with a sequel, The Crown of Midnight) is a story about a female assassin. Yes, it hints at romance between her and the male leads, but neither of them fit into the pattern you suggested. It also stars another female character, who also has a different perspective on the world. Romance is, in that, a sub-plot.

Alternatively; Daughter of the Empire, a story co-written by Raymond E. Feist and Janny Wurts, which is the first in a series about a woman obtaining political power.

PRE-EDIT: Also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trudi_Canavan

 

You're suggestion that most female fantasy authors write romantic fantasy sounds... well, rather insulting to be honest. Even if that were the case though, what about male authors? It doesn't take a lot of effort to find examples of women being objectified in male fantasy, and it's common enough that Terry Pratchett built a joke around it in The Color of Magic.

 

Have I heard of books like the ones you have suggested? Yes. But to say that that means every woman writing a female character is writing a wish fullfillment is insulting in a way I can't really describe. 

Edited March 3, 2014 by Quiver

[PorridgeBrick]

213, if that's all you're getting from female authors, then I recommend you stop reading Twilight derivatives (aka 90% of urban fantasy). Because that's the kind of book you're describing. And if you just avoid female authors, how will you ever find any good ones? Don't look at the author at all, and just let the book do the talking.

[Cracknut]

Yes, some of those books are good. I stated that myself didn't I? Now just compare how many fantasy books are written by females that don't fit in my description and ones that fit perfectly. That's why I'm using word most instead of all. What you guys did there was twisting my words just... to prove that you aren't sexist? Adjust your image on forum? I don't know, whatever reason you had, twisting peoples words against them is impolite, especially when you can't explain yourself by mishearing something. Read my posts again. By the way, what I'm saying isn't sexists as I'm backing them up with plain facts. Facts can't be sexist.

btw Quiver, if you couldn't see how Hunger Games was exactly what I described then you weren't paying attention.

It's funny how I phrased my posts to imply that I tried to stay away from books with female character + female author because I didn't like most of the stuff I've read like that. I didn't say those books should be burnt or something. I made it clear that those books had their audience and I just wasn't one of them. Looks like I'll just have to read some books I don't like from now on and like them very much so people can't call me stuff I'm not.

Edited March 3, 2014 by 213

[Tamzin Ashevai]

Tamzin, would you mind explaining how my comments are sexist?

  Wit, your comments aren't sexist; there's simply content within them that implies sexism.  It's underlying, but blatant to a woman who's read a great deal of fantasy fiction written by both male and female authors.

One of the things I think is important from the opening is the isolation of female characters. I can't speak for science-fiction, but it's always been my impression that fantasy novels tend to be male-dominated casts, with only a handful of women. The problem I have with that is that it makes the female characters stand out more, simply on the basis of their not being male- which opens them to a degree of scrutiny and idolisation that I don't think would be applied otherwise.

Female characters in fantasy fiction simply aren't always isolated.  I think you need to read from a few authors from whom you've - perhaps - not previously considered.  First, and foremost (for me), is Jacqueline Carey.  Her http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushiel%27s_Legacy'>Kushiel Legacy remains my favorite of all time.  Granted, there are "elements" within it that you might not (and Shardbearer assuredly will not) appreciate/like/enjoy ... however, if you can keep an open mind to the remarkable joining of a courtesan/spy/scholar with a "religious"/stoic/swordsman, plus an incredible reverence for the otherwise-named Roma people, not to mention a truly Machiavellian villain (in addition to SO MUCH ELSE), I believe you'll open your mind to a greater genre of female protagonists and female characters in fantasy fiction.

 

[Tamzin Ashevai]

Erm.. most women keep writing two dimensional characters and stories driven by sex and I don't like to read those stuff, so I instantly turn into sexist? It's a fact as far as I know, female author + female main character = book aimed ONLY on female audience.

I don't believe you know "most women" writers because you (obviously) don't read their novels.  Further, it seems you've potentially encountered the CRAP written by Laurel K. Hamilton, which I won't even consider valid because her obvious porn-fiction doesn't register above bottom-feeder with me.

You'll have one super independent girl with average looks(Always) who doesn't care about boys. Then we get at least two super hot male characters, one of them has to be a good guy while another one is a "badboy" womanizer with "can take mc anytime I wish because I'm so manly that no panties can stay in their places in my presence" attitude. We also get some world destruction plot thrown in for a good background while main character thinks how many children she wants(always) from badboy(most of the times). There's also super evil boss, who also is a sexy male AND also develops "love" for mc and it turns into competition for all these male characters and of course first place prize is mc. Oh and there will also be a super hot chick, with all the cliches thrown in and she tries to steal all the attention from mc and ends up as a main antagonist and rival of mc even though mc is too cool to acknowledge her. There's also second way of doing it, you get averagely sexy heroine and turn her into fake badass, she's totally out of league for everyone as far as she knows, but guess what?

This is all good. I have no problems with it. But I don't want to read it. And I haven't read or heard about a novel written by woman that has female main character and wouldn't turn into something that I described above. Of course there will be some good ones but will I be able to find them in my lifetime? Maybe a dozen, if I read hundreds of books I didn't wanted to read. So yeah I'd rather stick to male authors and if I read books written by women, I'll go with those that have male main characters.

In all honesty, I'm sorry that you've chosen not to experience the incredible worlds that are those of Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel Legacy, initially Phèdre's Trilogy, then Imriel's Trilogy (alternately a female, then a male protagonist's pov), Anne Bishop's Black Jewels Trilogy (which is sometimes "men-focused" fantasy like you've NEVER read before or will ever after).

 

Anyway, for me, this isn't an argument but an attempt to encourage something "other".

[Tamzin Ashevai]

Btw, I will NEVER read ANYTHING written by Stephanie Meyer!

[Cracknut]

And again, facts can not be sexist. You yourself know that there are more women writing and reading that kind of female fiction then the kind you're mentioning. I might be saying it because I hate women or I might be just pointing out truth or both. You can take it as any of those three but I won't start lying out of fear.

[Tamzin Ashevai]

Please define "that kind of 'female fiction' because I really don't understand that which you're describing as such, which leads me to believe that you might potentially be making a gross assumption about me and my knowledge of women writers and readers.  Further, I don't believe that you "hate women;" I totally get it that you prefer male authors of fantasy, with which I have no problem.  To each one's own.  I just want to know exactly that to which you are referring so that I might better understand your perspective.  I've no animosity toward you, Shardbearer, and I do appreciate lively debate.

[Cracknut]

One I mentioned above. With lots of males, one female who gets all the spotlight, lots of childrenmaking. I didn't say you're reading them, because I don't know whether you do or not. I said that I believe you know that those kinds of books are dominating today and reason to that seems apparent for me, people like them. I don't.

Edited March 8, 2014 by 213

[Tamzin Ashevai]

Holy moly!  You're seriously entrenched in your own beliefs!   Just how is it that you remain so stigmatized?

[Tamzin Ashevai]

One I mentioned above. With lots of males, one female who gets all the spotlight, lots of childrenmaking. I didn't say you're reading them, because I don't know whether you do or not. I said that I believe you know that those kinds of books are dominating today and reason to that seems apparent for me, people like them. I don't.

This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules are you talking about?  This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules is "childrenmaking"?  This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules is your personal goal in all of "this"?

[Tamzin Ashevai]

Okay, enough already!

[Awesomeness Summoned]

[Tamzin Ashevai]

Whatever!

[EHyde]

Btw, I will NEVER read ANYTHING written by Stephanie Meyer!

 

I thought The Host was pretty good, actually. Not wonderful, but not bad either.

 

I don't think it's really fair to say that certain authors or certain subgenres aren't valid. Romantic urban fantasy may not be appealing to most people here (including myself) but saying it doesn't count is a little insulting to the people who do enjoy it. And no one ever says anything about how certain male-dominated subgenres don't count, it's always the women who get excluded. I also don't think it's fair to dismiss one author's work as near-porn and then go on to praise Kushiel's Legacy ... I agree that those books are amazing and beautifully written but they do contain a lot of graphic, kinky sex!

[Cracknut]

For me: Every novel with vampires, werewolves and such is no fantasy. Neither is anything with elves, dwarves and so on fantasy anymore. 
Look, I'm excluding males as well. But that's besides the point. I still love stuff with vampires, so that's not why I don't like those books(Elves and dwarves though I hate with all my heart). Problem with those kinds of books(most of female author + female character stuff) for me are that they keep lying to me. I get introduced to a female character with average looks, cool personality, she's also smart and is not really into love. Read a bit more and its apparent that she's nothing like that, maybe except average looks. And this same thing can be applied to almost anything in there.

Erm I don't understand you, Tamzin Ashevai. You don't believe that novels from females with female characters aimed on females are dominating "fantasy-sci-fi" genre? Even if we agree that their fantasiness is questionable?

[Quiver]

Okay, serious topic necroing, I know. But.

In my defence, this is a topic which is still fascinating and still very relevant (and possibly could be expanded to "gender and sexuality roles in fiction), and one which I would really like to see people's responses too.

...not to mention the fact that this topic got derailed at the time, and the main voices leading the derailing argument are either inactive or else banned so...

Anyone interested in continuing/restarting this topic of thought? What do you think of how gender is presented in fiction?

(If mods figure this is too contentious, or that this thread is too old and better off left dead...sorry for my vile necromancy, and please feel free to lock or delete it!