The Recreance, Yet Again

[The One Who Connects]

15 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Actually, the Oathpact was described as indirectly binding Odium, which means it still could've been made with the intent of binding Odium, though I don't think it was.

I will yield to the correct wording of "not directly." I was thinking of a different WoB where he used "tangential effect" (Why Odium could splinter Honor)

Brandon saying that it was "Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it." leads into you and Yata's theory ideas quite well.

[Vissy]

What if the KR just followed orders from the Heralds?

[The One Who Connects]

12 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

What if the KR just followed orders from the Heralds?

For the Recreance itself, no.

Quote

Question

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

Brandon Sanderson

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

[Spoolofwhool]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

It's possible (but it may be aganist another idea of mine) the Oathpact works like a "Investiture pump". It extracts ambient Investiture from the system and pushes it outside of the system. THis would have a conseguence of made a Shard's Invesiment there more easy...quite automatic (If we imagine a Shard's Investiment works like Magical Osmosis) in the system and this bound the Shard there, because they can't easily deInvest.

It could be that the Oathpact powers the Heralds via the ambient investiture. I remember in fact that there's a recent WoB that the Heralds originally could draw investiture without needing to breath in stormlight, or something similar, so maybe that's it and now that they've turned away from the Oathpact they lost their connection. 

[ZenBossanova]

On 11/12/2016 at 6:40 PM, cometaryorbit said:

That's what I originally thought. But that makes him, IMO, too close to Ruin. I don't think Odium's ultimate goal is to destroy the universe or all life.

Also we may need to distinguish between the Intent of Odium in isolation and the goals of Rayse-Odium. The Vessel filters the Shard's Intent to some extent. Leras-Preservation could not do harm directly, but he was able to set up a plan to allow the Shard to pass to someone who could. Leras's goals (allow Vin to destroy Ruin and Sazed to take both Shards & remake the world) were clearly not identical to the Intent of Preservation (eternal stasis).

I agree that Rayse-Odium is an evil entity, but I don't think it's as simple as "Odium -> Hatred -> Kill Everything".

I'm not sure we're even interpreting the Intent of Odium correctly. Generally odium isn't a simple synonym for hatred, it's more like 'widespread distaste', 'social opprobrium', 'the state of being hated'. Not active and violent hatred. I'm not sure what that means in terms of a Shard Intent, but I think it is significant.

I have long suspected that the people who shattered Adonalsium, did it because they thought it was a desperate necessity. 

Odium may be taking this to the next level, and shattering the shards as well. He may consider this vital for mankind, as he (I suspect) thought when he helped in the original shattering. Vital enough to continue shattering shards. 

Notice, that Honor and Cultivation blended their surges, so Odium may be particularly opposed to them. 

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

Notice, that Honor and Cultivation blended their surges, so Odium may be particularly opposed to them. 

No they didn't. Surges do not belong to shards, they are fundamental forces which govern Roshar and the Cosmere. Surgebinding just grants people the power to manipulate them. No one is ever being granted surges, which is a very thought which I see repeated very often. Also, we don't have any proof that any aspect of surgebinding belongs to one shard over the other.

[cometaryorbit]

10 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

It could be that the Oathpact powers the Heralds via the ambient investiture. I remember in fact that there's a recent WoB that the Heralds originally could draw investiture without needing to breath in stormlight, or something similar, so maybe that's it and now that they've turned away from the Oathpact they lost their connection. 

That might be like Vin burning mists, directly drawing on the Shardic power of Honor. That was suggested on the powers of the Heralds thread, to explain how they could be so absurdly powerful that Ishi thought he could destroy all the KR singlehandedly if he had to.

[Thanatos]

My little bro thinks the shattering of honor was the heralds going against the intent of honor. 

The WoB above that honor was alive when the heralds abandoned their task leads me to believe he maybe right. 

As honor died in the last desolation.

My bro thinks to shatter a shard is to make it go against their intent. 

The heralds were greatly invested in honor. 

Edited December 21, 2016 by Thanatos

[Yata]

@Thanatos Honor died a lot after the Last Desolation, He was still alive in the Recreance as his memory of the event proved

[Thanatos]

Yata

Been awhile since i read the two Stormlight books. 

Where is it that says honor was alive during the Recreance? 

Honor did have some predictive abilities, Cultivation was the best.

Plus..... one of the honor to dalinar visions of the end is the end of Stormlight Arc 1. As per WoB.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Thanatos

[Kanrei]

18 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

For the Recreance itself, no.

So Heralds abandoned Oathpact - Radiants did nothing as response to that. WoB confirms imo this situation.

But there is possibility that after Heralds abandoned Oathpact some of them contacted Radiants and convinced them that greater good requires them to break their Oaths. I think about this situation @Rob Lucci  is asking, and I dont think WoB address this.
 

11 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Yata

Been awhile since i read the two Stormlight books. 

Where is it that says honor was alive during the Recreance? 

Honor did have some predictive abilities, Cultivation was the best.

Plus..... one of the honor to dalinar visions of the end is the end of Stormlight Arc 1. As per WoB.

There was WoB where Sanderson pointed that Honor had memories of Recreance so he should be shattered after.

In books only one vision is marked as vision of future. Others, even that not openly said so, feel like memories of something Honor actually experienced.

This two things allow as to assume that Shattering was after Recreance.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Kanrei

[Thanatos]

Ahh but what desolation memory was that? 1st, 2nd, 5th? Or last?

[Thanatos]

I think that Edgedancer confirmed the reason why the Knights Radiant did what they did. To prevent the next Desolation.

As per the manipulation of the Heralds 'after' Honor died.... Because of them/Heralds.

As per the Edgedancer 'Herald'.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Thanatos

[Thanatos]

When did Honor make the visions?

I recon just before he encountered/challenged Odium.

So he made the visions as a failsafe.

....

Theory 

I think Honor invested in the Heralds greatly! Therefore the Heralds turning back in Stormlight book 1 intro ended him. And at the time his awareness was in the vicinity of what we now know as The Shattered Plains

Edited December 21, 2016 by Thanatos

[Kanrei]

@Thanatos Memory of Recreance.

Edgedancer suggested theory, which could explain why all Orders abandoned Oaths, but for sure not confirmed it.

There was WoB that abandoning Oathpact wasnt direct reason for Honor's shattering, it just had some impact on him.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

I think that Edgedancer confirmed the reason why the Knights Radiant did what they did. To prevent the next Desolation.

As per the manipulation of the Heralds 'after' Honor died.... Because of them/Heralds.

As per the Edgedancer 'Herald'.

Edgedancer suggested a theory, which was being supported by someone who was clearly not mentally stable, and was postulated by someone who has previously postulated a theory with dubious biases regarding it. 

1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

I think Honor invested in the Heralds greatly! Therefore the Heralds turning back in Stormlight book 1 intro ended him. And at the time his awareness was in the vicinity of what we now know as The Shattered Plains

We have a WoB that the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact had a tangential effect at best on the ease at which Honor was shattered. Their decision basically in no one caused that. Also, please double or triple post. Just edit in new thoughts.

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

That might be like Vin burning mists, directly drawing on the Shardic power of Honor. That was suggested on the powers of the Heralds thread, to explain how they could be so absurdly powerful that Ishi thought he could destroy all the KR singlehandedly if he had to.

Precisely, though I don't think they were drawing directly on the power of Honor. I can't find the WoB, but I think it said they could draw stormlight from the spiritual source directly instead of waiting for a highstorm.

[Mirdrim]

There seem to be a good number of people who are unclear about the vision Dalinar has where Honor shows him "the future".  He talks of trying to see the future like looking into a 'broken mirror' and that there are many possibilities.  The possibility he shows Dalinar is "born of his fears" rather than being a clairvoyant understanding of the future.  He is showing him a possible outcome that he is very much afraid of.

Just wanted to clarify that point because it seems to be affecting many people's understanding of Odium's intent or lack thereof to destroy Roshar.

Also I think it's likely that the story of Roshar parallels the story on Scadrial in some ways that people don't seem to have considered.  If Preservation was able to see into the future and plan out the events of the original Mistborn trilogy before sacrificing a significant portion of his mind to prevent Ruin to a degree from influencing these plans, I don't see why it's unlikely that Honor and Cultivation together, with Cultivation skilled at seeing the future, couldn't plan out similarly for the opposition to what they were doing.  Knowing Rayse/Odium was seeking out and splintering shards, and seemingly targeting shards working together, you would think they had some ability to plan for the eventuality that he arrived to challenge them.

I think it's possible that the KR discovered the details of the Oathpact, and that Honor knowingly precipitated a covenant that would cause the binding of any shards that entered the system.  They would find that Honor is the reason for the Desolations, though indirectly.  At a Shardic level, what could be more honorable than to bind the one destroying shards in one's own system, at minimum buying time for the other shards to plan for their own opposition to Odium, at most possibly stopping or splintering Odium (though I don't see Honor or Cultivation either resorting to splintering another shard, and even if they resigned themselves to doing something so distasteful, would struggle to perform such an act, as it goes against their nature to some extent, and their shardic intent)

I think we really need to consider two things here, which kind of oppose each other in concept.  The KR all abandoned their oaths, every single one, so far as we know.  They may not have done it all at the exact instant, but they seem to have done it within a short time of each other, at minimum, it was a movement within the KR that was largely agreed upon, and though some may have struggled to stomach it, it ended up happening unanimously. The other side of this coin is that every individual Radiant is "cracked", which is what allows them to have surgebinding powers and the nahel bond in the first place.  This could lead to them being more likely to abandon their bonds, especially since most of the cracking seems to be caused by betrayal, hurt from those they trust most, or the loss of those they care about most. At minimum, it would seem like the cracking happens from a massive shift in the life of the individual.  Because of this, I feel like the breaking of the oaths would have to be a perceived betrayal of the spren, or the ones the KR had come to truly care about.

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Mirdrim said:

The KR all abandoned their oaths, every single one, so far as we know. 

It's not really relevant from your point but only 9 of the 10 orders broke their Oaths....but we don't have sure proofs about who was of the orders didn't take part in the Recreance

[Mirdrim]

18 minutes ago, Yata said:

It's not really relevant from your point but only 9 of the 10 orders broke their Oaths....but we don't have sure proofs about who was of the orders didn't take part in the Recreance

If there was an order that didn't break their oaths, where are they today?  Did the Radiants all die of old age, and the surges didn't return to men because the spren bond was no longer happening?

Where did you get that info?  Just curious, not questioning that it's the case.

[The One Who Connects]

6 minutes ago, Mirdrim said:

If there was an order that didn't break their oaths, where are they today?  Did the Radiants all die of old age, and the surges didn't return to men because the spren bond was no longer happening?

Where did you get that info?  Just curious, not questioning that it's the case.

Quote

“   This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.”

—Chapter 38, page 20

Source and Emphasis

Edited December 21, 2016 by The One Who Connects
Broken Source link, & emphasis

[Maxell]

If the act of the Recreance killed all the spren bound with the knights radiant, but we still have the godspren. Having the Bondsmiths not participating in the Recreance might smooth over how the godspren they bound to are still kicking.

My partner is suggesting that it's the Lightweavers relying on subterfuge based on the context of whats happening in the chapter.

[Yata]

Just now, Maxell said:

If the act of the Recreance killed all the spren bound with the knights radiant, but we still have the godspren. Having the Bondsmiths not participating in the Recreance might smooth over how the godspren they bound to are still kicking.

My partner is suggesting that it's the Lightweavers relying on subterfuge based on the context of whats happening in the chapter.

We have Pattern that said the Stormfather suffered in the recreance but survived...this probably mean he survived an Oathbreaking but it is unsure of surviving another (this is the reason He doesn't want to bond Dalinar easily).

PS: just a logic issues with your idea, just because there may be three Bondsmiths, we can't say at the Recreance there were 3 Bondsmiths...The Stormfather may be unbound at that time and other "godspren" may be killed 

[Mirdrim]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Source and Emphasis

Thank you, that clears up both the context in which 9 of 10 is mentioned, as well as the result of the order that didn't.

[ZenBossanova]

On 12/20/2016 at 9:50 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

No they didn't. Surges do not belong to shards, they are fundamental forces which govern Roshar and the Cosmere. Surgebinding just grants people the power to manipulate them. No one is ever being granted surges, which is a very thought which I see repeated very often. Also, we don't have any proof that any aspect of surgebinding belongs to one shard over the other.

Technically right, that the surges are universal, but the magic/power of Honor and Cultivation was blended both in the formation of the Heralds and the KR. Notice, that orders range from Honor to Cultivation and everywhere in between. I suspect that is particularly odious to Odium. 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, ZenBossanova said:

Technically right, that the surges are universal, but the magic/power of Honor and Cultivation was blended both in the formation of the Heralds and the KR. Notice, that orders range from Honor to Cultivation and everywhere in between. I suspect that is particularly odious to Odium. 

Most of that is theory though. All that is confirmed is that the spren which allow for the creation of KRs are formed from a mixture of Honor and Cultivation investiture. We don't know whether they collaborated to intentionally create the KRs, or the Heralds, and since the Oathpact is only between the Heralds and Honor, I'm not seeing how it is thought that Cultivation had any part in the Heralds.