The Recreance, Yet Again

[Spoolofwhool]

15 minutes ago, JUQ said:

Sorry for necroing, but I see a major hole in this theory.

How honorable is it to feed millions of people into a meat grinder? Not at all, huh?

That is an issue with the theory. While it is true that honour is relative to a person, and there could be someone who finds it honourable to sacrifice people for some reason, by all accounts, Honor cared for the Rosharans, and wanted to protect them. In his last vision, he seems to be feeling some guilt over the fact that he lost to Odium, and that he was abandoning them. As such, as you say, the intent of the shard, which he would be feeling to probably around the same degree as Ati or Leras by Mistborn or more, would prevent him from doing something he perceived as dishonourable. 

[Demiandre]

I see the Oathpact as a treaty like : you can try to destroy the planet how many times you want, but I will send people to help mankind and you must let sufficient time between your attacks so civilizations may rise again. If you betray us, you are trapped. If we betray you, you are no longer limited.

The first desolation was probably very hard, but time going further, spren started mimicking the Heralds and came up with the Nahel Bond. As such, Honor became a driving force of humanity and the Heralds organised them into the KR. I don't see Honor telling them to stop fighting. They display honor, of course he would want their help.

The plot twist is that both side betrayed each other. The Heralds couldn't stand the torture between desolations and quitted their duties, but Odium shaterred Honor outside of a desolation.

I haven't thought it out properly yet, I need to find a link with the Black Sphere, and why this neo is the Last Desolation. What are the differences and has it any relevance.

(Hey totally irrelevant, but what if the Heralds had a Curse and a Boon ? Immortality, but shall spend time in Damnation before being «reborn».)

Edited November 12, 2016 by Demiandre
missing part

[Spoolofwhool]

29 minutes ago, Demiandre said:

I see the Oathpact as a treaty like : you can try to destroy the planet how many times you want, but I will send people to help mankind and you must let sufficient time between your attacks so civilizations may rise again. If you betray us, you are trapped. If we betray you, you are no longer limited.

The Oathpact was made between Honor and the Heralds. I don't think at its inception it involved Odium at all, since binding Odium was just a side effect of it. I admit it's possible that it has changed since Odium's appearance, but I don't think significantly.

[Iarwainiel I]

Interesting theories from everyone.

One aspect I'd like to throw in is to keep in mind that Odium is the Shard of Hatred (per the Coppermind).

My feeling is that Hatred wouldn't stop at any boundaries. While Rayse's first goal is to splinter the other Shards, once that was accomplished the Hatred would find other objects ... any object ... until there was literally nothing left, just like the vision that Honor showed Dalinar: all the world disintegrating into dust. If that happened, would the corresponding things in the Cognitive Realm also disintegrate? right away? or over time?

I keep having the feeling that there is something else about the Heralds ... a twist different from what we'd think ... like maybe that they are evil, and deserve the punishment they endure between the Desolations, and that their time on Roshar serves as a kind of "parole." I have to keep myself from pondering too much - I don't want to spoil my enjoyment when the books eventually get published.

[VirtuousTraveller]

As I'm rereading TWoK, I'm wondering if there's a parallel between Kaladin's parents and Honor/Cultivation and Rashone. Kaladin's father is seen as an honorable man standing strong in the face of seemingly unjustified hatred from Rashone, but we eventually learn that he actually did something very unhonorable by taking advantage of the dying Wisteo (forgive my spelling).  It's even explicitly said that his mother was in on the theft when Kaladin finds out about it.

We talk a lot about Rayse being a hateful embodiment of evil, but we haven't really learned why there's so much hatred directed at Roshar specifically.  I bet Honor/Cultivation did something shady to Odium and now Roshar will feel the wrath for it.

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

As I'm rereading TWoK, I'm wondering if there's a parallel between Kaladin's parents and Honor/Cultivation and Rashone. Kaladin's father is seen as an honorable man standing strong in the face of seemingly unjustified hatred from Rashone, but we eventually learn that he actually did something very unhonorable by taking advantage of the dying Wisteo (forgive my spelling).  It's even explicitly said that his mother was in on the theft when Kaladin finds out about it.

We talk a lot about Rayse being a hateful embodiment of evil, but we haven't really learned why there's so much hatred directed at Roshar specifically.  I bet Honor/Cultivation did something shady to Odium and now Roshar will feel the wrath for it.

That's a very interesting thought. I'm guessing you're thinking that what is causing Odium's hatred is more than just be bound by the oathpact and perhaps being forced to invest into a world, something he has avoided previously?

Edited November 12, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Landis963]

3 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

As I'm rereading TWoK, I'm wondering if there's a parallel between Kaladin's parents and Honor/Cultivation and Rashone. Kaladin's father is seen as an honorable man standing strong in the face of seemingly unjustified hatred from Rashone, but we eventually learn that he actually did something very unhonorable by taking advantage of the dying Wisteo (forgive my spelling).  It's even explicitly said that his mother was in on the theft when Kaladin finds out about it.

We talk a lot about Rayse being a hateful embodiment of evil, but we haven't really learned why there's so much hatred directed at Roshar specifically.  I bet Honor/Cultivation did something shady to Odium and now Roshar will feel the wrath for it.

Assuming that "Intent creep" affected all the Shardvessels the way it did Leras, I don't believe Honor would have been capable of it.  (mitigating circumstances e.g. Preservation splitting off half his mind to make a prison for Ruin notwithstanding).  Which means Cultivation is the only remaining suspect.  (As I'm assuming that Odium can't backstab himself that way)

[VirtuousTraveller]

4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

That's a very interesting thought. I'm guessing you're thinking that what is causes Odium's hatred is more than just be bound by the oath part and perhaps being forced to invest into a world, something he has avoided previously?

It's possible that Honor tricked Odium somehow into what you describe, so yes, I think the Oathpact drives Odium nuts, but I wonder if something more personal is involved.  After all, Roshone was forced to go to the backwoods almost as an exile, where he could do no more harm to anyone else.  Sounds a lot like Rayse's situation to me.

1 hour ago, Landis963 said:

Assuming that "Intent creep" affected all the Shardvessels the way it did Leras, I don't believe Honor would have been capable of it.  (mitigating circumstances e.g. Preservation splitting off half his mind to make a prison for Ruin notwithstanding).  Which means Cultivation is the only remaining suspect.  (As I'm assuming that Odium can't backstab himself that way)

But would you argue that Lirin's action were the textbook definition of something completely dishonorable?  Trying to protect his family's ability to educate their son or insure that his son could marry up and improve his station life doesn't come across as inherently bad to me - it would violate my personal ethics, but Lirin was a man of honor (he served an unappreciative town for no pay for years).

I think Odium's rage is focused on getting revenge for what was done to him, the exile to the Greater Roshar system.  But how intense to know that he was bound by trickery, not by a more powerful force necessarily, by a force who was the embodiment of divine honor?  Yeah, I'd have a bone to pick too.  I think the great reveal at the end of this story is that, like Kaladin learned, the good guys and the bad guys aren't always so clearly defined.  We may have a different perspective of Odium by the end of this!

[Landis963]

6 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

But would you argue that Lirin's action were the textbook definition of something completely dishonorable?  Trying to protect his family's ability to educate their son or insure that his son could marry up and improve his station life doesn't come across as inherently bad to me - it would violate my personal ethics, but Lirin was a man of honor (he served an unappreciative town for no pay for years).

I'm not doubting that Lirin could do something like that, especially with all the circumstances surrounding it.  I'm doubting that Honor could do something like that.  Look at the severe difficulties Leras had with stabbing someone, even if not performing that action might have undone everything Leras sacrificed to make happen.  

EDIT: To completely answer the question, no, I don't think Lirin's actions were completely dishonorable, especially if Wistiow would have given him the money anyway, but that's beside the point.  

Edited November 12, 2016 by Landis963

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I think Odium's rage is focused on getting revenge for what was done to him, the exile to the Greater Roshar system.  But how intense to know that he was bound by trickery, not by a more powerful force necessarily, by a force who was the embodiment of divine honor?  Yeah, I'd have a bone to pick too.  I think the great reveal at the end of this story is that, like Kaladin learned, the good guys and the bad guys aren't always so clearly defined.  We may have a different perspective of Odium by the end of this!

Interesting thought. It seems more likely that to me that Odium's rage is still focused on freeing himself. I don't think though that Odium will ever come across as being a sympathetic character, definitely not to those who are Cosmere-aware and know he's a selfish man who is killing his former comrades to be the most powerful, but not even to those who just read SA. Good people, from a general reader's perspective, do not destroy non-relevant civilizations because they're angry. They just go after the bad guy and break him. I'm not saying it's impossible, and it would have to be brilliant twist, which I believe Brandon is capable of, but I just don't think it is likely. 

It is interesting though that in some sense, from what we know from Brandon, Odium is already a sympathetic character. The reason he hates and destroys other shards is because he fears for his own destruction by a greater power. If I read deeper, I can see a selfish person who's insecure about their self-worth. The intent of Odium might've given that insecurity the push it needed to start lashing out at those around. I don't know, just an interesting thought which crossed my mind while I was responding and reading some WoBs.

[cometaryorbit]

21 hours ago, old aggie said:

Interesting theories from everyone.

One aspect I'd like to throw in is to keep in mind that Odium is the Shard of Hatred (per the Coppermind).

My feeling is that Hatred wouldn't stop at any boundaries. While Rayse's first goal is to splinter the other Shards, once that was accomplished the Hatred would find other objects ... any object ... until there was literally nothing left, just like the vision that Honor showed Dalinar: all the world disintegrating into dust.

That's what I originally thought. But that makes him, IMO, too close to Ruin. I don't think Odium's ultimate goal is to destroy the universe or all life.

Also we may need to distinguish between the Intent of Odium in isolation and the goals of Rayse-Odium. The Vessel filters the Shard's Intent to some extent. Leras-Preservation could not do harm directly, but he was able to set up a plan to allow the Shard to pass to someone who could. Leras's goals (allow Vin to destroy Ruin and Sazed to take both Shards & remake the world) were clearly not identical to the Intent of Preservation (eternal stasis).

I agree that Rayse-Odium is an evil entity, but I don't think it's as simple as "Odium -> Hatred -> Kill Everything".

I'm not sure we're even interpreting the Intent of Odium correctly. Generally odium isn't a simple synonym for hatred, it's more like 'widespread distaste', 'social opprobrium', 'the state of being hated'. Not active and violent hatred. I'm not sure what that means in terms of a Shard Intent, but I think it is significant.

[cometaryorbit]

Coming back to this theory - there are basically two major holes.

1) Honor's vision showing Odium destroying the world. But this is just one possible future. It seems totally viable that Odium destroying the world is the result if humanity fights and loses, not necessarily the result if humanity refuses to fight at all (which Honor might not even have considered, and certainly wouldn't want to present as an option).

2) This makes Honor sound pretty dishonorable. Well, to us, yes... but it seems like the Intent of Honor is about oaths and such. If the Heralds and the first KR swore an oath to fight Odium with the intent to bind their descendants, too, it's possible that Honor could see that as entirely valid. Multi-generational obligations aren't unknown on Earth.

[Steelheart]

 

On 10/14/2016 at 3:06 AM, cometaryorbit said:

More likely, though, they didn't quite understand the whole picture, and thought that with Honor gone there would be no more Desolations.

 

1

Pretty sure we have a WoB that the Recreance took place before Honor was Splintered

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, it did, that's bad phrasing on my part. What I meant was "they thought that if they did the Recreance rather than fighting Odium, Odium would kill Honor without starting a Desolation, and once Honor was dead there wouldn't be any more Desolations".

[Dahak]

On 12/11/2016 at 2:18 AM, JUQ said:

Sorry for necroing, but I see a major hole in this theory.

How honorable is it to feed millions of people into a meat grinder? Not at all, huh?

It is the highest honour the Vorin Religon has. Those who fight best in life will become the Heralds' armies in the battles to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls.

[Spoolofwhool]

21 minutes ago, Dahak said:

It is the highest honour the Vorin Religon has. Those who fight best in life will become the Heralds' armies in the battles to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls.

Honor isn't the Vorin religion though. He clearly cares for humanity and wants to protect them. Also, the idea of sacrificing them isn't connected to the idea that they would fight in the afterlife, it's sacrificing them to protect his self-interests. 

[Dahak]

On 11/12/2016 at 1:57 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

Honor isn't the Vorin religion though. He clearly cares for humanity and wants to protect them. Also, the idea of sacrificing them isn't connected to the idea that they would fight in the afterlife, it's sacrificing them to protect his self-interests. 

You were with heavy negative emotional shading asking if it was Honourable to send people into battle on mass. The religion of the people who worship Honor says it is. They believe that their warrior class should perfect their skills so they can zerg rush Braize at some point after they are dead, which makes them volunteers. Strength Before Weakness.

One of the points of this series is that there is more than one path to honourable behaviour and they don't completely over lap... 

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Dahak said:

You were with heavy negative emotional shading asking if it was Honourable to send people into battle on mass. The religion of the people who worship Honor says it is. They believe that their warrior class should perfect their skills so they can zerg rush Braize at some point after they are dead, which makes them volunteers. Strength Before Weakness.

I didn't ask whether it was honorable or not to send people into a meat grinder. I still agree with the point though, which is why I responded to your post. I'm don't understand what you're trying to say with your response though.

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, FiveLate said:

By this post...well the end part at least...

If honor was sacrificing others to protect his self interests, I think that the internal conflicts alone would have caused him to splinter/shatter himself with no extra effort from Odium.

True. Or more likely he just wouldn't have been able to do it at all.

[C1-10P (Chopper)]

The Heralds arrival signals a desolation.  The period that the Heralds leave from Roshar following a Desolation results in a time of relative peace.  When they are gone they apparently pay some kind of penance on Braize (Hell), are tortured.  The time of the penance seems somewhat proportional to how many go to Braize, the more who go the less time they have to suffer while there.  As if the penance were split amongst them.  When their Penance is done they are allowed back on Roshar but again their presence signals yet another Desolation, and the cycle repeats.  Thus when all the Heralds went to Braize the period between Desolations was shorter.  Now that only Taln went to Braize this last time, he had to bear the ENTIRE penance of the Heralds which took A LOT longer than previously because only one man bore the brunt of that penance.  As a result the peace on Roshar has been much longer than normal and some thought permanent.  This is not so though as we know Taln has finally been freed of his Penance and as soon as he returns to Roshar a massive Desolation begins to percolate.  Because of this massive penance he bore alone he has turned mad, his mind broken.  Now, if the KR learned of this decision of the Heralds other than Taln to refrain from returning to Braize then that might be considered a betrayal, "why follow dishonorable leaders that would sacrifice one of their own out of perceived weakness".  To top that off if they learned of the Oathpact and wondered why Honor would agree to such a thing could be considered another betrayal.

Just some ponderings on possible motivations.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Aradishar

[The One Who Connects]

3 hours ago, Aradishar said:

When they are gone they apparently pay some kind of penance on Braize (Hell), are tortured.  The time of the penance seems somewhat proportional to how many go to Braize, the more who go the less time they have to suffer while there.  As if the penance were split amongst them.  When their Penance is done they are allowed back on Roshar but again their presence signals yet another Desolation, and the cycle repeats.

You may very well be correct, but I still favor the other idea thrown around here. They are all tortured until one of them breaks, meaning the one with the least mental fortitude was the torture timer. But with only Taln, Odium has to snap him instead of whoever it normally was. Taln, being the living embodiment of a Stoneward, is strong, stubborn, and hard-headed. So it took much longer because Taln doesn't crack.

I agree with most everything else after "As a result, the peace is much longer..."

3 hours ago, Aradishar said:

To top that off if they learned of the Oathpact and wondered why Honor would agree to such a thing could be considered another betrayal.

Except this, for reasons the people of Roshar would not know. But Taln would, and he would remember this if he remembered enough to explain the Oathpact to begin with. The reason being that "Odium was not part of the Oathpact." Him being trapped by it was referred to as a "tangential effect," which implies that the Oathpact wasn't even about him to begin with. (Great, now I've just given myself even more unknown variables.. )

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Except this, for reasons the people of Roshar would not know. But Taln would, and he would remember this if he remembered enough to explain the Oathpact to begin with. The reason being that "Odium was not part of the Oathpact." Him being trapped by it was referred to as a "tangential effect," which implies that the Oathpact wasn't even about him to begin with. (Great, now I've just given myself even more unknown variables.. )

Actually, the Oathpact was described as indirectly binding Odium, which means it still could've been made with the intent of binding Odium, though I don't think it was. For instance, if the Oathpact enabled specific events which required Odium to remain in the system, and therefore invest into a world, then it has indirectly bound him. Or even if the Oathpact did force Odium to invest, then he would still be directly bound to the system by that investiture, with the Oathpact only indirectly binding him. Brandon's answer to that question can really be taken to a number of difference degrees of how close the Oathpact and the forces behind Odium's binding are.

[Yata]

11 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Actually, the Oathpact was described as indirectly binding Odium, which means it still could've been made with the intent of binding Odium, though I don't think it was. For instance, if the Oathpact enabled specific events which required Odium to remain in the system, and therefore invest into a world, then it has indirectly bound him. Or even if the Oathpact did force Odium to invest, then he would still be directly bound to the system by that investiture, with the Oathpact only indirectly binding him. Brandon's answer to that question can really be taken to a number of difference degrees of how close the Oathpact and the forces behind Odium's binding are.

I exposed somewhere the idea that the Oathpact was an aggrement between Honor and the GR's People (with the Heralds as rappresentatives) to not abandon them.

It's a way to calm down people who arrived in an hostile envirorment (Roshar), to say them that their gods (Honor & Cultivation) will not go away.

The Oathpact made impossible for a Shard to leave GR System (how this is possible it's hard to say) and once Odium arrived He was uncapable of leave the system too.

Of course this is just a possibility.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

I exposed somewhere the idea that the Oathpact was an aggrement between Honor and the GR's People (with the Heralds as rappresentatives) to not abandon them.

It's a way to calm down people who arrived in an hostile envirorment (Roshar), to say them that their gods (Honor & Cultivation) will not go away.

The Oathpact made impossible for a Shard to leave GR System (how this is possible it's hard to say) and once Odium arrived He was uncapable of leave the system too.

Of course this is just a possibility.

Interestingly enough, this is my theory on the matter as well. The Heralds were formed to lead and protect the people in their new world. Once Odium was trapped in the system because of the Oathpact, he slowly invested into at least one of the worlds, therefore being bound. My theory on the Desolations is that he's trying to break the Oathpact, by causing the Heralds to fail to protect the people, by killing everyone.

[Yata]

19 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Interestingly enough, this is my theory on the matter as well. The Heralds were formed to lead and protect the people in their new world. Once Odium was trapped in the system because of the Oathpact, he slowly invested into at least one of the worlds, therefore being bound. My theory on the Desolations is that he's trying to break the Oathpact, by causing the Heralds to fail to protect the people, by killing everyone.

It's possible (but it may be aganist another idea of mine) the Oathpact works like a "Investiture pump". It extracts ambient Investiture from the system and pushes it outside of the system. THis would have a conseguence of made a Shard's Invesiment there more easy...quite automatic (If we imagine a Shard's Investiment works like Magical Osmosis) in the system and this bound the Shard there, because they can't easily deInvest.