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Better type IV BioEntities


Djarskublar

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2 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

I can't find WoB for it right now, but I thought that anyone could hold Breath and reach Heightenings, but there was special sDNA that allowed you to awaken and Return. So everyone on Nathis can awaken. That would have been better for him to have said, I think.

Also, if type IVs have bindpoints, does that mean that you could spike off their abilities? Craft a type IV with useful powers, and then spike them off for yourself bwahahahaha

WoB that non-Nalthians with breath can use biochroma (breath), and I'm assuming by the question, awaken. 

Quote

NUTIKETAIEL

"If a native of Sel or another Shardworld travelled to Nalthis, would they be a drab?"

Brandon almost answered quickly, but then got a thoughtful look and paused to consider with a "hmm." After a moment, he replied:

BRANDON SANDERSON

"No, they would not be a drab. But, no one would be able to take their breath."

NUTIKETAIEL

"If such a person died on Nalthis, could they Return?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"No, they cannot Return."

NUTIKETAIEL

"If such a person received breath, could they use BioChroma?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"Yes.

It is interesting that the person said BioChroma instead of Awakening, so it's possible that the question just meant that they could give the breath away without awakening as well as gain the heightening perks. I feel like there's another WoB which more directly says so, but I can't remember its details and I can't find it. There was a WoB where he did say "if a non-Nalthian gained the ability to awaken", so you may in fact be correct.

I don't think IVs have bindpoints, unless it's a living entity. In any case, a precept of hemalurgy is that the spike has to touch blood in order to take or bind a charge so I'm not sure how you would make that work with non-biological and living Type IV entities. 

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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Ugh, the main problem with this whole thread is that we are all making assumptions without the requisite facts. I may even be 'errorgant' by posting this next bit, but this is also something I think needs to be discussed.

I think I can make a case for type IV entities having bind points. We don't know exactly how they work or really much about them at all except that a human has 200-300 and that they are very specific in location. This means I am free to make reasonable speculation on how they work. While considering if a type IV would have bind points, I first considered why humans do, and why powers that don't even necessarily exist yet could probably be spiked. Say a Shard Invested on Scadrial that hasn't been there yet, we can now expect a new set of powers. I would also expect for there to be new bind points that can be used to spike off those powers. The only question is whether they would naturally form, or if Ruin would have to modify the power. Considering that Hemalurgy is important to the Cosmere at large, this suggests to me that the bind points are actually independent of Ruin. That conclusion led me to believe that bind points are spots on your physical form where your spiritweb is better 'connected' to your physical form. Things that don't have enough of a soul to require a nexus like that wouldn't have any bind points, but a powerful soul would have many. Therefor, lumps of inanimate matter wouldn't have them, but things with true souls would. This matters with things like Surgebinders, because they didn't have a bind point for their spren bond before, but once it is formed, a 'nexus' on their soul would appear that Hemalurgy can access. When you spike someone, it rips off the soul that is relevant to the nexus, so it would steal an ability or trait corresponding with that nexus.

Something like an awakened object would not have bind points, though. The bind point would actually be attached to the awakener, since the Breath is theirs. This bind point would only grant control of the awakened object. You can't normally spike Breath since it is only loosely attached to your soul, so it doesn't form a nexus on the soul. But with a Lifeless or a type IV, the Breath is no longer attached to the soul of the Awakener. It is actually on the object. The object would then likely have a bind point for whatever stuff it is doing. Those Breaths are likely better attached, so a nexus may form. The deciding factor on whether NB has bind points, then, is whether or not the Breath is actually part of the object, or if it is still only loosely attached. Considering that it is sentient, I lean towards a more firm attachment.

In the end, this didn't prove anything, but it makes a ton of sense for why Hemalurgy works the way it does. This certainly bears discussion, and I am very interested to see if any of you think it has merit. Sorry if you think this should be its own thread, but it makes sense here with the topic at hand.

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6 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

We don't know exactly how they work or really much about them at all except that a human has 200-300 and that they are very specific in location.

I wish to add this piece of information

Quote

2. Scadrial question: We've seen Kandra True Bodies made of crystal, stone, or wood. Can a kandra use a True Body made of metal? If so, what happens if each metal "bone" had a Hemalurgic charge, and each one is touching an appropriate bind point?
. . . .
2. Yes. And that would work, better than you think, because Kandra have fluid bind points. But too many spikes can be dangerous to the psyche, even with Ati not messing things up.

Would the existence of "fluid" bind points affect your general idea at all?

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3 hours ago, Djarskublar said:
Spoiler

 

Ugh, the main problem with this whole thread is that we are all making assumptions without the requisite facts. I may even be 'errorgant' by posting this next bit, but this is also something I think needs to be discussed.

I think I can make a case for type IV entities having bind points. We don't know exactly how they work or really much about them at all except that a human has 200-300 and that they are very specific in location. This means I am free to make reasonable speculation on how they work. While considering if a type IV would have bind points, I first considered why humans do, and why powers that don't even necessarily exist yet could probably be spiked. Say a Shard Invested on Scadrial that hasn't been there yet, we can now expect a new set of powers. I would also expect for there to be new bind points that can be used to spike off those powers. The only question is whether they would naturally form, or if Ruin would have to modify the power. Considering that Hemalurgy is important to the Cosmere at large, this suggests to me that the bind points are actually independent of Ruin. That conclusion led me to believe that bind points are spots on your physical form where your spiritweb is better 'connected' to your physical form. Things that don't have enough of a soul to require a nexus like that wouldn't have any bind points, but a powerful soul would have many. Therefor, lumps of inanimate matter wouldn't have them, but things with true souls would. This matters with things like Surgebinders, because they didn't have a bind point for their spren bond before, but once it is formed, a 'nexus' on their soul would appear that Hemalurgy can access. When you spike someone, it rips off the soul that is relevant to the nexus, so it would steal an ability or trait corresponding with that nexus.

Something like an awakened object would not have bind points, though. The bind point would actually be attached to the awakener, since the Breath is theirs. This bind point would only grant control of the awakened object. You can't normally spike Breath since it is only loosely attached to your soul, so it doesn't form a nexus on the soul. But with a Lifeless or a type IV, the Breath is no longer attached to the soul of the Awakener. It is actually on the object. The object would then likely have a bind point for whatever stuff it is doing. Those Breaths are likely better attached, so a nexus may form. The deciding factor on whether NB has bind points, then, is whether or not the Breath is actually part of the object, or if it is still only loosely attached. Considering that it is sentient, I lean towards a more firm attachment.

In the end, this didn't prove anything, but it makes a ton of sense for why Hemalurgy works the way it does. This certainly bears discussion, and I am very interested to see if any of you think it has merit. Sorry if you think this should be its own thread, but it makes sense here with the topic at hand.

 

 

As I said earlier, my issue with an non-living object gaining a power from a hemalurgic charge is that there is a WoB that flowing blood is a part of a giving power hemalurgically. The only weird thing I see about this is that I don't think kandras have blood, though I could be wrong.

Quote

MASTER_MORIDIN

1. What is the relationship between blood and the Spiritual Realm? (Since Hemalurgy needs blood to graft the sDNA in a spike into someone else's sDNA)

BRANDON SANDERSON

The blood being in motion is part of it

[Source]

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I put a couple days of though into your point, spool, and I don't think it necessarily matters.

Kandra do have blood as I recall. On the other hand, I would bet you can use spikes on lifeless that don't have any blood in their bodies anymore. They have stagnant ichor alcohol in them. I would also bet you can use spikes on, say, a tree. Those don't have blood, they have sap.

I could agree with an argument that having bloodflow makes it so you are more efficient with the use of the Hemalurgic ability, but I don't think it is always a requirement. And by more efficient here I mean that you would be able to fully access the spirit attached to the spike.

I could see the requirement just being some sort of flow, so sap or ichor alcohol would work, but not necessarily as well as if they were flowing more freely. Perhaps the electron sea on a metal would count. I got nothing for what would flow with awakened stone, though.

Speaking of using spikes on trees, does that mean you could create the Cthaeh from the Kingkiller Chronicles? That would be really trippy.

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It's possible, regarding other objects. My opinion though is that it seems to be that blood is an integral part of hemalurgy, as expressed by the "hema" part of it. I imagine it would be possible to get around that requirement, but I don't think it would be as simple as substitutes in other materials and lifeforms.

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19 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Kandra do have blood as I recall. On the other hand, I would bet you can use spikes on lifeless that don't have any blood in their bodies anymore. They have stagnant ichor alcohol in them. I would also bet you can use spikes on, say, a tree. Those don't have blood, they have sap.

[ . . snip . . ]

I could see the requirement just being some sort of flow, so sap or ichor alcohol would work, but not necessarily as well as if they were flowing more freely. Perhaps the electron sea on a metal would count. I got nothing for what would flow with awakened stone, though.

I don't technically disagree that you could give powers to a lifeless, but I don't think many of them would be able to use them.

Here's the only real disagreement, but the Coppermind has no source for it.

Quote

Hemalurgy "doesn't really work on trees".[Citation needed]

Having whatever passes for blood be flowing seems like a decent idea though. Does your electron example involve flowing electricity?

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It thought blood was mentioned in the context of the spiritual connection -- that is, that blood has a much stronger spiritual connection, so may just make it much easier but is not actually required (specifically, that a spiritual connection is what is actually required).

Edited by Argel
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