Better type IV BioEntities

[Djarskublar]

I was thinking yesterday about how you could maybe make a more human type 4 like Nightblood. I bounced a couple ideas off of @Peng the Just since he was around, and came to a couple conclusions. The obvious answer is to use Hemalurgy somehow. I have a couple ideas of how to make a better NB, but first I think we could use a couple reminders, along with a few questions that may be relevant.

The first is that a type 4 Biochromatic Entity is made by imbuing a stone or metal object with 1000 Breaths. Is that number mutable? Is it just hitting a target minimum Investiture? That seems likely. That is how other awakenings work as far as I can tell.

Second, we know that Nightblood and Shardblades can be used as Hemalurgic spikes, but that they wouldn't necessarily pick up any additional Investiture because they are already 'full.' This makes things generally difficult. I think i also saw a WoB (that I can't find at the moment) that said that it would be difficult to awaken a spike because it already has Investiture that would interfere with the awakening.

Third we know that a Returned can shape their Divine Breath, but we don't know the extent of that ability. Is it limited to just physical changes, or can it be used for far more powerful things? What is the mechanic by which it works?

After presenting some base concepts that shaped this, and keeping in mind the questions, I present the actual theory. The first is a solid idea that I think would work. The second would require some more information and clarifying discussion.

The first is that you use Hemalurgic spikes forged together into a sword or some such thing before you awaken it. "But Djar," you might say, "you already have pointed out that it is really tough to awaken spikes because their Investiture interferes!" And you would be right. There is a trick to it that I thought of that would make it possible, though. We start of with a Gold/Gold Twinborn. We use them compounding and then tapping a bunch as we spike them, or some such trick to keep them alive and regrow the spiritweb we spike off. We do this repeatedly to spike off a copy off all the human attributes. Wait a few hundred years (or some such large time). This allows the spikes to weaken enough that now they don't have enough Investiture to effectively interfere, while still potentially making the awakened object more human. Forge the spikes together (with normal means, not Forgery) into the desired shape. Then awaken the storming thing! This sounds like a solid method Realmatically, but it takes a long time.

The second method is much more iffy and, well, crazy. I'm not even fully sure where I'm going with this idea. The idea is that you use a Divine Breath in the process of awakening the object. If a Returned shapes the Breath as they are awakening, or maybe they are more mutable and able to be more human when used to awaken. I don't know. Maybe a Divine Breath is just a more 'human' breath, so it acts as a much larger Breath, even though it is still only one Breath, so it works more powerfully in awakening/Heightening. It would still have substantially more Investiture. I have no idea exactly how this would work, I just think it likely that if you used a Divine Breath or three in the awakening process in some specific manner it could potentially make your type IV entity more human. I am totally open to suggestions for how that might operate.

I want to see what people think of both ideas. The first is much more grounded, so it should be provable/disprovable more easily. The second is more of a vague idea that probably shouldn't be posted yet, but I have no idea where to take it, and since it fits with the other, I am posting it anyway. I will let you guys direct that conversation.

[Turbonator]

For the first method, you could just break the spikes a few times. In addition to splitting the power (which doesn't matter since you'll be forging them back together), power will be lost. And while I can't find the WoB, I think I read somewhere that melting a spike would cause it to lose some power as well, though I'm not so sure anymore. That would shorten the centuries to a far more manageable time.

[The One Who Connects]

34 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

The first is that a type 4 Biochromatic Entity is made by imbuing a stone or metal object with 1000 Breaths. Is that number mutable? Is it just hitting a target minimum Investiture? That seems likely. That is how other awakenings work as far as I can tell.

Well.. time to bring back a post I made a while back.

Quote

Per the Coppermind, they aren't the same. They can mix, but that's because of how broad the type criteria is.

Quote

Type III

The process generally thought of as Awakening creates Type III entities, a BioChromatic manifestation in an organic host far removed from being alive. Examples include Awakened ropes, cloth, or skeletal remains.

Type III objects can take a great deal of Breaths, often over one hundred, to create. However, since the object being Awakened is far from being alive, the Breath can be recovered afterwards. For this reason, much more is known about the Commands to Awaken Type III entities.

Someone who has reached the Ninth Heightening is able to Awaken things like stone or steel, which were never alive. Such Awakenings require enormous amounts of Breath.

Type IV

Type IV entities are Awakened objects with sentience. The only known such object, Nightblood, required Shashara to be at the Ninth Heightening and to expend one thousand Breaths. No other research into Type IV entities has been conducted.

Emphasis added. Type I is Returned and II is Lifeless, Type III was considered awakening anything else. Since the only example of Type IV is Nightblood, I imagine that Vasher/Shashara created that classification afterwards for Sentient Awakened Objects.

Spool was going to nitpick it soon enough, so I'm getting it out of the way now. Type III Awakening is any and all non-sentient awakened object that isn't a Returned or a Lifeless. Type IV is anything a Type III can be, but sentient. Sentience is the only criteria Vasher/Shashara currently have for Type IV.

Second, no argument. Third, that's something to ask Brandon/wait for Warbreaker 2 in however many years.

For Method One, that's.. either ridiculous or clever. It would take a bit more hacking knowledge than anyone likely has at this point, but it sounds feasible. As for Method Two, I don't really know how to respond to that. It could work, but we don't know enough.

[Djarskublar]

23 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Well.. time to bring back a post I made a while back.

Spool was going to nitpick it soon enough, so I'm getting it out of the way now. Type III Awakening is any and all non-sentient awakened object that isn't a Returned or a Lifeless. Type IV is anything a Type III can be, but sentient. Sentience is the only criteria Vasher/Shashara currently have for Type IV.

Second, no argument. Third, that's something to ask Brandon/wait for Warbreaker 2 in however many years.

For Method One, that's.. either ridiculous or clever. It would take a bit more hacking knowledge than anyone likely has at this point, but it sounds feasible. As for Method Two, I don't really know how to respond to that. It could work, but we don't know enough.

Based on what you quoted there, it made me have a total lightbulb moment that probably deserves another entire thread, but is possibly relevant to the current discussion.

I present the idea that there are only two kinds of awakened objects. Lifeless are one, and normal awakened objects are another. Your quote suggested to me that type IV entities are actually just more powerful type IIIs. This means that Nightblood is just Invested enough and with the right commands to attain sentience. He is powerful enough that he drains Investiture when using his powers. Normal awakened objects slowly use up their Breath as well, just far slower. They aren't maintaining a mind as well. They also don't exercise mind control or other weird stuff.

This brings me to the other implication of my statement. Returned are Lifeless. Lifeless created by Endowment with the command that would fit their goal in Returning. Then, because they are so heavily invested, they get more 'stuff.' They have free will because they are Invested enough to have a mind and a Command that is very unrestrictive. Maintaining this state drains Investiture in the same manner as NB, just a lot slower. There are other side effects of being so heavily Invested, like magic healing and superhuman beauty and ability.

This boils down to the idea that the difference between Lifeless and other awakened objects is that one was once sentient. The ninth Heightening is required for stone/metal because they have no connection to life. I always assumed it was necessary to even make a type IV. The difference in whether or not you can recall the Breath is in Identity. Of you awaken something and imprint your Identity on it, it is keyed to you and you can recall it. With something like a Lifeless or NB, you are creating a new Identity, and can't recall from that Identity because it isn't you.

This leads me to an expansion to method one. The gold/gold Twinborn should get spiked with the ability to Awaken. Then you use spikes on them to create a set of spikes with their Identity that constitutes all the human attributes. Use time or breaking up the spike as @Turbonator suggested, and make your object. Then have your gold/gold Twinborn awaken the object. If you do it correctly, you may end up with an object that has a similar enough Identity for them to be able to recall the Breaths. Then if you messed up the Command, you aren't stuck with it!

With the second method, maybe a Divine Breath has the Command imprinted on it, so if it was used in the creation of a type IV, it would influence the Command given to it towards the Command Endowment gave the Returned the Breath came from.

Oh and @The One Who Connects, I am at once anticipating and dreading @Spoolofwhool's comments. I am very interested in what @Argent has to say, though. His comments are generally excellent.

[The One Who Connects]

21 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Oh and The One Who Connects, I am at once anticipating and dreading Spoolofwhool's comments.

They've nitpicked "he killed her to hide Type IV, not how to awaken steel" before, and my comment happened right afterwards. So I brought it here to preempt arguments/corrections with relevant sources.

As for the expanded Method One, that gives off... Frankenstein vibes

[Spoolofwhool]

.... Thanks @Djarskublar and @The One Who Connects, you really make a guy feel like he posts nothing more than criticism. (Which isn't necessarily wrong of course or nothing, nor hurtful in any manner, just slightly amusing.)

Anywho... my main nitpick is as The One Who Connects said, in that as far as we've been told, as far as we've seen, Type IV entities are simply defined as being sentient, not necessarily awakened steel or stone. 

5 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

The first is that a type 4 Biochromatic Entity is made by imbuing a stone or metal object with 1000 Breaths. Is that number mutable? Is it just hitting a target minimum Investiture? That seems likely. That is how other awakenings work as far as I can tell.

1000 breaths is definitely mutable in my opinion. I'm sure someone could create a Type IV entity that using less than 1000 breaths, since you probably wouldn't need to make it into a shardblade-class object to make it sentient. As such, a lesser effect while still providing sentience is more than likely possible, while in the same vein, a greater effect with sentient my be possible, though I feel that Nightblood is probably pushing the limits of awakening.

 

Regarding the main topic. My main questions is, what do you mean when you say "more human Type IV entities"? In your first method, you talked about using hemalurgic spikes charges with the various human attributes. By this, I'm assuming you're talking about the attributes such as strength, senses, emotional stability and fortitude, intelligence and memory, along with other unknown ones. However, if we consider Nightblood, the only Type IV entity seen so far, it more or less has them already, at least the cognitive ones. It's got memory and intelligence, sense, and some sort of emotions. So I guess then what you mean is that you want to elevate the innate investiture of those specific attributes so they're more similar to the average amount in humans. Assuming of course it is a lesser amount, which is a fair assumption. So overall, the theory seems to be about methods raising the innate investiture of a Type IV entities to improve its cognitive, so it's more sapient.

So once we've established that, the next question is somewhat, why would you be unable to manipulate the amounts through normal awakening? We already know it's possible to do so, since I'm assuming that's how Nightblood is sentient and somewhat sapient, by using some of the breath within it to generate a more refined cognitive aspect. I imagine it would be possible to allow for a greater amount of cognitive aspects, assuming you're willing to provide a bit more breath and probably lower the strength, by potentially not making it a shardblade-class object. As far as I can tell, the main reason why Nightblood has a low cognitive despite being sapient, which means it effectively higher than a lot of things, is because a lot of its investiture is being directed towards its weapon functions, which we see most directly when its drawn and it loses most of its personality.

... Anyhow, things to do now so I'll address the actual theorized methods later on. This should be enough to discuss for now.

Edit: I saw that upvote you sneaky son of a chull.

Edit 2: 2 people need better things to do than read my post and upvote them in less than 20 minutes after I post. (Hey, maybe I'll add an edit for every upvote.)

Edited October 4, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[The One Who Connects]

6 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

.... Thanks Djarskublar and The One Who Connects, you really make a guy feel like he posts nothing more than criticism. (Which isn't necessarily wrong of course or nothing, nor hurtful in any manner, just slightly amusing.)

I hereby apologize for that. It was not my intention to make it sound that way.

Personally, I think pointing out and explaining misconceptions is a good thing, as it helps bring understanding.

On the subject of understanding, your first and second paragraph fit pretty well with my limited understanding of Djar's general idea.
That last sentence of paragraph 3 is an interesting idea. I don't think anyone's considered the limited cognitive being due to a focus on weaponry.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

I hereby apologize for that. It was not my intention to make it sound that way.

Personally, I think pointing out and explaining misconceptions is a good thing, as it helps bring understanding.

On the subject of understanding, your first and second paragraph fit pretty well with my limited understanding of Djar's general idea.
That last sentence of paragraph 3 is an interesting idea. I don't think anyone's considered the limited cognitive being due to a focus on weaponry.

Yeah, no problem. Like I said, I found it amusing that you guys would mention me for that reason, but since I know I do post nitpicks fairly often, it's not a problem. 

Paragraph 3 was something I thought about as a progression after completing paragraph 2. I mean, most of my posts are made up as I go, so nothing new there. However, as I said, my feelings are that Vasher made Nightblood primarily as a mimic of sprenblades. Whether the sentience was an unknown side effect or something they knew about and decided would be necessary for the process, I'm not sure about. I vaguely recall him thinking about the creation process of Nightblood a bit, but I don't have time to pull the passage so I could be wrong here. 

[Djarskublar]

19 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

.... Thanks @Djarskublar and @The One Who Connects, you really make a guy feel like he posts nothing more than criticism. (Which isn't necessarily wrong of course or nothing, nor hurtful in any manner, just slightly amusing.)

Anywho... my main nitpick is as The One Who Connects said, in that as far as we've been told, as far as we've seen, Type IV entities are simply defined as being sentient, not necessarily awakened steel or stone. 

1000 breaths is definitely mutable in my opinion. I'm sure someone could create a Type IV entity that using less than 1000 breaths, since you probably wouldn't need to make it into a shardblade-class object to make it sentient. As such, a lesser effect while still providing sentience is more than likely possible, while in the same vein, a greater effect with sentient my be possible, though I feel that Nightblood is probably pushing the limits of awakening.

 

Regarding the main topic. My main questions is, what do you mean when you say "more human Type IV entities"? In your first method, you talked about using hemalurgic spikes charges with the various human attributes. By this, I'm assuming you're talking about the attributes such as strength, senses, emotional stability and fortitude, intelligence and memory, along with other unknown ones. However, if we consider Nightblood, the only Type IV entity seen so far, it more or less has them already, at least the cognitive ones. It's got memory and intelligence, sense, and some sort of emotions. So I guess then what you mean is that you want to elevate the innate investiture of those specific attributes so they're more similar to the average amount in humans. Assuming of course it is a lesser amount, which is a fair assumption. So overall, the theory seems to be about methods raising the innate investiture of a Type IV entities to improve its cognitive, so it's more sapient.

So once we've established that, the next question is somewhat, why would you be unable to manipulate the amounts through normal awakening? We already know it's possible to do so, since I'm assuming that's how Nightblood is sentient, by using some of the breath within it to generate a more refined cognitive aspect. I imagine it would be possible to allow for a greater amount of cognitive aspects, assuming you're willing to provide a bit more breath and probably lower the strength, by potentially not making it a shardblade-class object. As far as I can tell, the main reason why Nightblood has a low cognitive despite being sapient, which means it effectively higher than a lot of things, is because a lot of its investiture is being directed towards its weapon functions, which we see most directly when its drawn and it loses most of its personality.

... Anyhow, things to do now so I'll address the actual theorized methods later on. This should be enough to discuss for now.

Yes, excellent nitpicks all around. Have a well deserved gree... orange arrow. I will say I didn't mean any rudeness, it's just kinda your specialty.

What I specifically meant by 'more human' is that Vasher talks about how since NB has never been alive, it doesn't understand humanity. I figured that if you pulled shenanigans with a cross system hack, you could make the sword more human. Sapience doesn't necessarily guarantee that you understand human morality. Just look at spren. They don't understand human speech patterns or values. They are great at understanding one aspect like right/wrong or patterns/truth, but they have to be bonded to get the big picture. NB isn't going to grow because of a bond, though. He is defined by his Command. So it may be possible to power the object down so that it is more 'human' like Spool suggested, but Hemalurgy may work just as well without sacrificing much, if any, power. With the human attributes, I would more specifically grab the mentally oriented ones.  You wouldn't necessarily need a complete set. The most important would be memory. If he could remember that Shashara was dead, that would be nice.

I also wonder if a sentient awakened object has Hemalurgic bind points. It is alive, to an extent, and other living species have bind points. Now I want to have an awakened staff (stick) with a pouch on it to put metals in that would qualify as a stomach to burn from. Put small spikes in it to give it powers. Spike a spren to it so it can glow and be a supercool Staff of Power! That is all a tangent, though.

[Spoolofwhool]

5 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

What I specifically meant by 'more human' is that Vasher talks about how since NB has never been alive, it doesn't understand humanity. I figured that if you pulled shenanigans with a cross system hack, you could make the sword more human. Sapience doesn't necessarily guarantee that you understand human morality. Just look at spren. They don't understand human speech patterns or values. They are great at understanding one aspect like right/wrong or patterns/truth, but they have to be bonded to get the big picture. NB isn't going to grow because of a bond, though. He is defined by his Command. So it may be possible to power the object down so that it is more 'human' like Spool suggested, but Hemalurgy may work just as well without sacrificing much, if any, power. With the human attributes, I would more specifically grab the mentally oriented ones.  You wouldn't necessarily need a complete set. The most important would be memory. If he could remember that Shashara was dead, that would be nice

So you want a Type IV entity which understands what it means to be human more. Interesting.

So first, I think Nightblood can remember that Shashara is dead, it just can't accept it as part of reality. In the annotations of Warbreaker, Brandon has stated that Nightblood has an intense recollection of the moment around its creation, to the point where anything which contradicts that reality cannot be accepted by Nightblood as real. This includes Shashara being dead and Denth being a non-friend. So hemalurgic spikes probably wouldn't change anything, as its inability to accept a reality where Shashara is dead is simply by nature beyond it. This passage from Chapter 29 shows it fairly well. 

Quote

Is Shashara here? Nightblood asked, excitement in his nebulous voice. We need to go see her! She’ll be worried about what happened to me.

“We killed Shashara long ago, Nightblood,” Vasher said. “Just like we killed Arsteel.” Just like we’ll eventually kill Denth.

As usual, Nightblood refused to acknowledge Shashara’s death. She made me, you know,Nightblood said. Made me to destroy things that were evil. I’m rather good at it. I think she’d be proud of me. We should go talk to her. Show her how well I do my job

Anyhow, back to the main point. I think sapience is in fact what should be improved in Nightblood. It has all the other needed cognitive qualities, but what it lacks is the ability to intelligently conceive, which is a fair part of sapience. 

The main issue I'm seeing about the idea of using hemalurgy to add the necessary cognitive to a Type IV entity is interference between the investitures. Yes, you want to deliberately drain the spikes of their hemalurgic charge, but at some point the spikes will be so drained that they won't produce an effect. At the same time, I'm thinking that enough charge to produce an effect will interfere with the awakening process, and limit the resulting power of the awakened object. 

[Argent]

So, we can blame this on my lack of good spirits early in the morning, but I can't say I see the merit of the primary theory being discussed here - that of creating a Type IV BioChromatic entity by (somehow) weakening one (or more) Hemalurgic spikes. I think @Spoolofwhool made an excellent objection to the idea by pointing out Nightblood's already kind of human - or, rather, sapient - qualities. Shashara didn't need to Hemalurgically spike an Archivist to grant Nightblood memory, nor did she need to mutilate a Trueself - Nightblood strikes me as a being with a really strong, of simplistic, sense of Identity. 

In other words, we have strong evidence that such traits are inherent not to humanity, but to Investiture itself. In fact, they may be manifesting in humanity because they are inherent to Investiture. So the question then becomes this: does any sufficiently large pile of Investiture develop sapience (when left alone; e.g. the God King's Breath hoard wouldn't develop sapience unless somehow left unattended), or is some kind of additional effort required to get it to... awaken (e.g. a Command)? In the first case, I don't think the source - or filter - of the Investiture would matter, it's the amount of it that's important. And in the second... well, then it's the "extra effort" that matters, whether that extra is an Awakener's Command or a a Shard's will (when dealing with Splinters). In either one of those scenarios I find it difficult to find room for your idea about using specially made and treated spikes.

Plus, these are all tangents. The reason I wanted to post was so that I could mention my biggest issue with this theory - the assumption that the charge carried by a Hemalurgic spike would have a significant effect on how the newly created Type IV would turn out. I wouldn't call this assumption unreasonable, but I feel it's definitely not supported well. I suppose this also fits with my train of thought from above, which is nice, because it's not so obvious that I wrote the two halves of this post in reverse order.

All this being said, I am actually far more interested in your second idea, @Djarskublar. Creating Type IVs with Divine Breath sounds a lot more interesting to me than some roundabout Hemalurgic hack.

[Yata]

37 minutes ago, Argent said:

Plus, these are all tangents. The reason I wanted to post was so that I could mention my biggest issue with this theory - the assumption that the charge carried by a Hemalurgic spike would have a significant effect on how the newly created Type IV would turn out. I wouldn't call this assumption unreasonable, but I feel it's definitely not supported well. I suppose this also fits with my train of thought from above, which is nice, because it's not so obvious that I wrote the two halves of this post in reverse order.

Actually the Interaction between Hemalurgy and Awekening may give birth to some unexpeted effects...it's not very different from the Perks of other Magic Combinations. Maybe they will not mix as Djarskublar want, but I will see the potential of something more than the simple sum of effects.

37 minutes ago, Argent said:

All this being said, I am actually far more interested in your second idea, @Djarskublar. Creating Type IVs with Divine Breath sounds a lot more interesting to me than some roundabout Hemalurgic hack.

About this part, I feel that a Divine Breath used for Awakening purpose would not have a Imprinting-Cognitive from the Awekener but instead try to his own Mind to fiutful the Awkening's Command. In the end this would create an Type IV more "natural" than Nightblood. In the same way a Frankenstein's Monster is different from a standard Human being

PS: I am really doubtful, We know Nightblood may be used as Spike...from ? (I may understand average Shardblade from some weird godmetal's propriety but I don't really catch the Nightblood's case)

Edited October 4, 2016 by Yata

[Djarskublar]

I can accept all those points, @Argent. I don't fully agree with them, but I do accept them as a valid view. The goal is to make the object have a better ability to understand vague human concepts. NB does have a rudimentary value system, so I thought maybe adding some human spikes to its construction might make it more intelligent in that regard.

On using Divine Breath, I would say two possibilities exist. This is about the core mechanic of how something is awakened. When you awaken something, does it grab a breath at a time really fast until it has the amount of Investiture necessary? Does it automatically grab the amount it needs? How does it choose which Breaths to use? Most recently aquired first? Pure chance?

If it chooses one at a time from most recent first, you could seriously hack it with a Divine Breath. If you know the awakening is going to take about 800 Breaths, then you can shuffle around any Breaths you have so that the Divine one is near the 'bottom.' Then when you awaken the object, it gets, say, 750 normal Breaths, and then suddenly it is massively overfilled by a Divine Breath. If it takes a big dollop all at once you just have to make sure you have few enough normal Breaths that you become a drab after awakening the item. If you take the above example, you would need to manage it so you only had 750 Of whatever stockpile, plus the DB. It may just take the DB when awakened and leave you with 750, but it may take the 750 and then the DB.

Regardless of how it is chosen, if you get the DB in the awakening, your object is probably overfilled. Ignoring any special properties of DBs for a moment, that would probably help with NB's problem of being unable to maintain both power and intelligence. Even if you awakened NB with only a DB, it would still have around double the Investiture.

Then we have to decide what, if any, special properties DBs would have or apply to an awakening like this. I don't know that there would be any. A DB may just be a super strong Breath. That would be boring, though, and I don't think it is necessarily the most likely scenario. I think there may be some more stuff that would go on with them. Children of Returned have special bonus abilities, at least sometimes. If it was just powerful, then we could expect a Royal Locks like ability from anyone that is descended from someone with around 2000 breaths. While rare, those people aren't unheard of, so I would say there is at least something special involved in the process of Returned having children, and more likely just with DB in general.

I don't have anything concrete on what the bonus effects of awakening something with DB would be, but I think it is safe to say that there would be something. At a guess, I would say DB would be better at interpreting the Intent of commands. There my be an increased Connection to Endowment, though I don't know what that would entail for an awakened object. The object in question may be straight up more powerful. I don't recall if DB is the solid or gaseous manifestation of Endowment, but either way, it may provide a direct connection to its power. That would be extremely useful to the point where it would be pointless to make a type IV that didn't have a DB involved. If Endowment started powering the item directly because of DB, it probably wouldn't corrupt the Investiture used or drain much, if any, Investiture from the user.

That is all guesswork, though. I feel it is pretty safe to say DB would do something extra when awakening something to sentience, but that there isn't a lot of evidence for any specific effect.

I suppose we should also address the question of whether it is even possible to use DB in awakening. A Returned may only be able to use the DB for the my life to yours Command. I have seen it theorized that the DB is consumed for the healing process when given to someone. If both of those cases are true, then awakening with DB may be impossible. You might be able to get away with Hemalurgically stealing one though.

Actually, come to think of it, that would be a relatively accurate way to test how much power is lost from spiking. You could just lifesense how much power was lost from the Breath. I think that covers everything I wanted to mention.

[The One Who Connects]

6 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

I suppose we should also address the question of whether it is even possible to use DB in awakening. A Returned may only be able to use the DB for the my life to yours Command. I have seen it theorized that the DB is consumed for the healing process when given to someone. If both of those cases are true, then awakening with DB may be impossible. You might be able to get away with Hemalurgically stealing one though.

This, and...

Quote

Cheese Ninja

Is it hypothetically possible to Awaken an object using a Divine Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes

So that was all I could find on Theoryland with the tag "Breath" or "Divine Breath"
While I cannot find it, I am very sure that Brandon has said that the Divine Breath is consumed by healing.

21 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

As far as I can tell, the main reason why Nightblood has a low cognitive despite being sapient, which means it effectively higher than a lot of things, is because a lot of its investiture is being directed towards its weapon functions, which we see most directly when its drawn and it loses most of its personality.

Did some reading to try answering Djar's point. It turns out that you are correct here.

Quote

Anyway, a lot of important things happen here. Note that Nightblood doesn’t remember being drawn. When he was created, the Breaths gave him sentience as planned. (That was a big part of the goal in making him—to prove the existence of Type Four BioChromatic entities.) However, once he is drawn, his Command takes force and he acts much more like a regular Awakened object—but one with very strange abilities and powers. During this time, his Breath is diverted to creating the powers, and his mind goes fuzzy.

[18th Shard]

I believe Sanderson has also stated (in reference to Seons and Skaze) that large amounts of Investiture without a mind do gain sentience @Argent. 

[Argent]

13 hours ago, 18th Shard said:

I believe Sanderson has also stated (in reference to Seons and Skaze) that large amounts of Investiture without a mind do gain sentience @Argent. 

That's what half of my argument is based on

[Yata]

Just now, Argent said:

That's what half of my argument is based on

You recently asked (and recived) more if I don't remember wrong....I was just to post on the forum everything. But I saw it was a Sharder's question and decided to leave the honor to you 

[Thunder_93]

I just had some thoughts about Type IV BioEntities, when reading this whole article. If somebody knows the answers from any of this, from WoBs or whatever, let me know

So, they could awake a metalsword and make it sentient. Are those 2 things related? I don't really think so... As I think, it should be possible as well to create other Type IV BioEntities, let's say, out of a puppet, or even a dead body (not taking about lifeless). So, shouldn't this be possible as well? Of course, with the right amount of Breaths and the right commands. I mean, what if you have way enough breaths (like Susebron) and command a dead body to destroy evil? Or a puppet? Will it become sentient, be like a human, and go and kill? I just really can't imagine it's the metal that made it a Type IV BioEntity. Or maybe, with a better command, you could create your own Returned (well, kind of Returned).

Then the next thing is connected with what I wrote before. The question is, which was the deciding factor at the awakening of Nightblood, which made it sentient? The amount of breaths, the command, the fact that Returned awakened it, or was it (what I doubt) the metal? So let's just suggest, that they awakened it, but this deciding factor was slightly different (best example, command a little different). Would it be possible, that you awake a sword, with exactly the same powers (vaporizing at touching the blade, "control" the mind of evil people, suck up Investiture) but without being sentient? 

 

Edit: At writting the second part, I just had this idea in my mind (but I'm not gonna edit what I just wrote):

What if really the metal is the deciding part to make it sentient? Maybe it's because the metal itself is just... to hard. all awakened objects were easily movable, bendable, and so on. But metal isn't. So, is it the fact, that an awakened sword (not sentient) couldn't act by the command of the Awakener, so it develops an own mind?

[Argent]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

You recently asked (and recived) more if I don't remember wrong....I was just to post on the forum everything. But I saw it was a Sharder's question and decided to leave the honor to you 

I'll get around to sharing this

[Shardbearer]

I'll weigh in on this topic as well.

@Djarskublar, I don't think the first method you mentioned would work. You would essentially be splicing a bunch of Breaths to pieces of human souls that were forcefully ripped from their hosts. This reminds me of Frankenstein's monster, as someone else mentioned. I think this would be even more unstable than Nightblood.

And that's even assuming it would work, which I have my doubts about. Hemalurgic charges are keyed to an Identity, similar to how metalminds are. Would the Type IV Entity be able to access these charges? There are 2 WoBs that seem to contradict each other on this.

Quote

Interview: Jul, 2009

Twitter: Brandonothology collection (Verbatim)

Czanos

Would anything interesting happen if an Allomancer Burned a Hemalurgic spike, or a Feruchemist Tapped one?

Brandon Sanderson

Er, well, it’s possible. But you’d have to be burning a Hemalurgic spike that killed you and took your power... Just like you can’t gain anything by burning a metalmind unless you infused it yourself.

Quote

Interview: Jan 10th, 2011

Tor Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

Maru Nui ()

What happens when you burn a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson ()

Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person's that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences.


I think the 2nd method is more likely to work. However, I don't think a Returned could survive using their Divine Breath for Awakening.

[Peng the Just]

On 10/3/2016 at 1:32 PM, Djarskublar said:

@Peng the Just

WHO DARES AWAKEN ME FROM MY SLUMBER??

[Djarskublar]

2 hours ago, Shardbearer said:

I'll weigh in on this topic as well.

@Djarskublar, I don't think the first method you mentioned would work. You would essentially be splicing a bunch of Breaths to pieces of human souls that were forcefully ripped from their hosts. This reminds me of Frankenstein's monster, as someone else mentioned. I think this would be even more unstable than Nightblood.

And that's even assuming it would work, which I have my doubts about. Hemalurgic charges are keyed to an Identity, similar to how metalminds are. Would the Type IV Entity be able to access these charges? There are 2 WoBs that seem to contradict each other on this.

I think the 2nd method is more likely to work. However, I don't think a Returned could survive using their Divine Breath for Awakening.

I would normally totally agree with your points on the first method, but I indirectly addressed this without realizing it when I expanded the method. I would have the gold/gold Twinborn have a spike that allows them to awaken. Then you spike off their attributes and have them tap a bunch of health to heal it off and regrow themselves. You then break the spike to reduce the Investiture so it doesn't interfere. As an aside, I would bet that there is some threshold where it wouldn't interfere too much while still doing something. These spikes are from the Twinborn, and therefor have his/her Identity. Then when they awaken the object, they can try to imprint as much of their identity on it as possible, and that should make it able to access the spikes.

For the actual construction of the object, I have an important question I haven't seen posed before. What if the object you are awakening is only partially metal? I realized that if type IVs do have Hemalurgic bind points, then driving spikes into something metal would be impractical. You would still want at least part of the object to be metal, assuming you want a weapon. Personally, I would make a naginata. For any of you who don't know what that is, it is, to put it simply, a sword blade on the end of a polearm. The haft would be much easier to spike than the blade. How would it being partially metal affect it, though? Would you just awaken the wood, and attach a blade? It would certainly be a LOT cheaper, though not as useful. Just leave metal out of it entirely at that point. If you awaken the whole item, though, would you still need to be at the ninth Heightening to be able to awaken it? A lower one since you aren't just awakening metal? Would you even run into the same problem NB has with not understanding humanity well if you don't use metal?

Basically, I just had the most overpowered idea of all time. Tape medallions (read: BoM) to your type IV. Specifically, make them a nicrosil compounder. This would get you around the issue of it needing to eat your Investiture to operate. Another thing that would support it being useful is to not make it able to cut on all three Realms. One or two is plenty. That would drastically reduce its need to eat Investiture. While you are at it, make the Bands that you tape to it have windrunner abilities too so that the object can have some hardcore mobility.

While we are fantasizing about stuff that may not be possible, lets jack the power level up some. Use both methods on the same object. Whatever sweet effects we can stack on this thing can only make it better! Use the Hemalurgy to make it understand humanity better, then awaken it with DB to make it more powerful period. Then use medallions and/or more Hemalurgy to make the object have more range of ability. Also, have an Elantrian carve Aons on it to make it way better as well. Maybe attach some fabrial(s) to it if there are any good ones for this, maybe an alerter? Basically, if it has an application that could make it better, use it. I think that is all of the useful stuff you could actually use on the object. It isn't like you can teach a sword the ChayShan arts, after all.

Also, what would burning gold do with an object like this? Not a super important question, but still interesting.

6 minutes ago, Peng the Just said:

WHO DARES AWAKEN ME FROM MY SLUMBER??

Dunno...

[Peng the Just]

13 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Tape medallions (read: BoM) to your type IV. Specifically, make them a nicrosil compounder.

A type IV with infinite power? What could possibly go wrong? I can't think of a thing. 

Edited October 5, 2016 by Peng the Just
adding picture

[The One Who Connects]

16 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

I would have the gold/gold Twinborn have a spike that allows them to awaken.

People don't need special stuff to awaken. All they need is the Breath and the Commands

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system?

Rhandric

It's a science, because anyone can do it.

Brandon Sanderson

So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they get the breath.

 

[Djarskublar]

10 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

People don't need special stuff to awaken. All they need is the Breath and the Commands

 

I can't find WoB for it right now, but I thought that anyone could hold Breath and reach Heightenings, but there was special sDNA that allowed you to awaken and Return. So everyone on Nathis can awaken. That would have been better for him to have said, I think.

Also, if type IVs have bindpoints, does that mean that you could spike off their abilities? Craft a type IV with useful powers, and then spike them off for yourself bwahahahaha