Mid-Range Game 17: Hic Sunt Leones

[Elbereth]

Since the doc's been released now, comments: 

Quote

Mage: Nah.  Killing Doc is probably a bad idea.  If we want to get rid of someone important, we should kill El.  Honestly.  She'll hate us for it, but right now, it makes sense to kill El.  This is just my opinion though.  Looks like it's already decided at this point.

Why do you think I'd hate you for it? (And you say the same for Doc, later on.) Seriously. It's your duty as an eliminator to take out the most active/dangerous villagers, of whom I was definitely one (until the Julii clarification, at least; after that it was rather more arguable). I'm not going to be angry about that. Mock angry, maybe, but not even really that in this kind of situation. It's what you do. Don't worry about it.
That said, the fact that you thought that we would be angry and did it anyway kind of saddens me.  Kind of a short-term view, in my opinion. You may have a slightly higher chance of winning this game, but it'll make you less likely to be accepted and trusted and happy in the community as a whole and future games if you're doing things that (you think will) make people angry. 

Also, props to Jondesu for being an excellent eliminator and playing a great first game. I was very impressed both in thread and in the PM. Well done. 

Regards to the PM thing - in my opinion, doing what they did was still the best option. But I laid out my reasons for that in the dead doc, and don't particularly feel like doing so again.  Anyway, with practically anyone else (except... Mage, possibly, or a particularly new player) that strategy would've worked. It's just that Len happened to not care about being an elim and preferred betraying his team in order to win, breaking the game partly in the process. (To be clear, breaking the game is not a good thing. It's something to be avoided. But, everyone plays differently, so it was entirely within Len's right to do that given the opportunity. I just personally disagree with it.) 

This was a good game, and I really liked the Merit mechanic, and hope we see it again in future games. See you all in the next!  

[Magestar]

8 hours ago, Elbereth said:

Mock angry, maybe, but not even really that in this kind of situation.

This is mostly what I meant.  This is also my first game as an Eliminator, so I had a bit of trouble getting around the idea that I could just kill anyone.  I know I wouldn't like dying C1, so what happened was I partially reflected those feelings onto other people.  It was mostly facetious, anyway.

8 hours ago, Elbereth said:

That said, the fact that you thought that we would be angry and did it anyway kind of saddens me.  Kind of a short-term view, in my opinion. You may have a slightly higher chance of winning this game, but it'll make you less likely to be accepted and trusted and happy in the community as a whole and future games if you're doing things that (you think will) make people angry. 

Ouch.  This is not what I intended at all.  I'm honestly not sure how to respond to this view because it's so far from what I had intended.  I'll try anyway.

When I play Mafia with my friends, and I'm a kill role, I'll have to kill one of my friends.  Later, they'll probable say something like; 'Come on man, why'd you have to do that?  You could have killed _____!'.  This is not hate, it's just mock anger.  That's what I was implying you would do.  Later, one of the same freinds might kill me when they don't have anyone else to kill, because I killed them.  It's all in jest.

I assumed you would not be happy that you died C1. (At this point, I actually don't remember when we killed you.  I'm pretty sure I said that C1 or so.)  I really don't think it's within the bounds of your personality (Or Doc's, for that matter) to hate someone for killing them in a game.  However, I totally could see you 'mock raging' about it in the dead doc. 

Which, looking at the doc, you didn't.  Huh.  Apparently, we didn't even kill you.  How odd.  Still, I could see it happening.

Take MR17 for another example.  In that game, I seriously messed with Doc.  And Doc was definitely a bit frustrated, which I can see, but it was still all in fun and games, (and mostly accidental  ), and even afterwards in the dead doc, it was all just mock anger.  (I hope. )  I didn't expect anything else.  Out of context, I can see how my post could be taken, but that's really not what I meant at all.  I hope I didn't upset you too much.  

8 hours ago, Elbereth said:

Anyway, with practically anyone else (except... Mage, possibly, or a particularly new player) that strategy would've worked. It's just that Len happened to not care about being an elim and preferred betraying his team in order to win, breaking the game partly in the process. (To be clear, breaking the game is not a good thing. It's something to be avoided. But, everyone plays differently, so it was entirely within Len's right to do that given the opportunity. I just personally disagree with it.) 

Lolno.  I would never have betrayed my team.  First of all, I much prefer being an Elim to being a villager, and second, I don't particularly like betraying people on my team, for the same reason I don't like killing people in general.  It also doesn't make sense from a gameplay/metagame perspective, IMO, and I think it sets a bad precedent as well as placing a target on your back.  I don't personally like the Traitor mechanic to start with, either.

8 hours ago, Elbereth said:

This was a good game, and I really liked the Merit mechanic, and hope we see it again in future games. See you all in the next!  

I also am a fan of the merit system.  It got me to RP, which was nice.  

[Elbereth]

2 hours ago, Magestar said:

This is mostly what I meant.  This is also my first game as an Eliminator, so I had a bit of trouble getting around the idea that I could just kill anyone.  I know I wouldn't like dying C1, so what happened was I partially reflected those feelings onto other people.  It was mostly facetious, anyway.

Ouch.  This is not what I intended at all.  I'm honestly not sure how to respond to this view because it's so far from what I had intended.  I'll try anyway.

When I play Mafia with my friends, and I'm a kill role, I'll have to kill one of my friends.  Later, they'll probable say something like; 'Come on man, why'd you have to do that?  You could have killed _____!'.  This is not hate, it's just mock anger.  That's what I was implying you would do.  Later, one of the same freinds might kill me when they don't have anyone else to kill, because I killed them.  It's all in jest.

I assumed you would not be happy that you died C1. (At this point, I actually don't remember when we killed you.  I'm pretty sure I said that C1 or so.)  I really don't think it's within the bounds of your personality (Or Doc's, for that matter) to hate someone for killing them in a game.  However, I totally could see you 'mock raging' about it in the dead doc. 

Which, looking at the doc, you didn't.  Huh.  Apparently, we didn't even kill you.  How odd.  Still, I could see it happening.

Take MR17 for another example.  In that game, I seriously messed with Doc.  And Doc was definitely a bit frustrated, which I can see, but it was still all in fun and games, (and mostly accidental  ), and even afterwards in the dead doc, it was all just mock anger.  (I hope. )  I didn't expect anything else.  Out of context, I can see how my post could be taken, but that's really not what I meant at all.  I hope I didn't upset you too much.  

Lolno.  I would never have betrayed my team.  First of all, I much prefer being an Elim to being a villager, and second, I don't particularly like betraying people on my team, for the same reason I don't like killing people in general.  It also doesn't make sense from a gameplay/metagame perspective, IMO, and I think it sets a bad precedent as well as placing a target on your back.  I don't personally like the Traitor mechanic to start with, either.

I also am a fan of the merit system.  It got me to RP, which was nice.  

You're fine, Mage.  I just misinterpreted your words, then. I'm very happy to hear that. 

And no, I didn't get particularly angry in the dead doc. I wouldn't have if I died C1, either, probably - I didn't in QF19, after all. I very rarely will. Being visibly wrathful only amuses my murderer and lets them know I want revenge. It's much more fun as a surprise.  Besides, again, I usually choose to take it as a mark of respect, that I was dangerous enough that I needed to be killed. The only actual times I've been irritated at my death are both times Stink killed me (LG20 and LG24), and then LG21 when I was killed by accident.

...This is MR17?  And no, you didn't upset me. It concerned me because of what I thought you were saying, but you've definitely allayed those fears just fine.

Right. I should've remembered how excited you were to be an eliminator. >> I didn't think that judgement through properly. Apologies. 

[STINK]

15 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

Besides, again, I usually choose to take it as a mark of respect, that I was dangerous enough that I needed to be killed. The only actual times I've been irritated at my death are both times Stink killed me (LG20 and LG24), and then LG21 when I was killed by accident.

What about me killing you annoys you so much?

[Elbereth]

Not sure? Well... in LG20, it wasn't so much because of you but because I was really invested in the game. I was trying my hardest to win against very difficult odds. And then I didn't even lose because the game ended and I didn't have all my items. I lost because you decided randomly to kill me. And then in LG24, everyone else that cycle (except Araris) died from Aman. I came home to Wilson saying "five people are dead, including you and me, and Aman's evil". But I wasn't killed by Aman. You again randomly decided to kill me (or at least, that was random as far as I know; I never heard about any reasoning, in any case). And that irritated me because if I'd been alive, Aman would've had a lot less freedom to say what he did and get away with everything. 

So, it's more that you've tended to kill me in games I care about than anything particularly about you.  Except perhaps that you didn't have much reasoning for killing me either time. 

[STINK]

Reasoning that you know of 

[Elbereth]

Well, I know for a fact that you had no reasoning in LG20, because I have access to that GM PM.  I'm fairly sure you didn't have much reasoning in LG24, but I could be wrong. Did you? 

[Young Bard]

...Elbereth, that would be me that killed you. Sorry about that

Honestly, it was because of your role. The Julii plan was just too effective, and 2 Eliminators and no Villagers were dead at that point, which is a trend I couldn't let continue, or I'd lose before there were 2 or less villagers. So I killed you. I was actually hoping I wouldn't have to seeing as you'd done so much GM'ing and not very much playing, but... I couldn't see any way of not killing you and still have relatively even odds of both sides winning.

Besides. See it as revenge at last for LG23. 

[Elenion]

21 hours ago, Elbereth said:

It's just that Len happened to not care about being an elim and preferred betraying his team in order to win...

This wasn't my thought process at all: I actually enjoyed being an elim. I interpreted my role to be that of a double-agent: I could choose to either play straight elim or be a worm secretly working for the village. I ran the probabilities and projected that working for the village gave me a higher chance of winning, so I took that route. I thought at the time that it was expected for someone of my role to work with the village at least to some extent, having not played a game with a traitor mechanic before. And then it turned out that I broke the game, but I went with my projections anyway.

[Elbereth]

1 hour ago, The Young Bard said:

...Elbereth, that would be me that killed you. Sorry about that

Honestly, it was because of your role. The Julii plan was just too effective, and 2 Eliminators and no Villagers were dead at that point, which is a trend I couldn't let continue, or I'd lose before there were 2 or less villagers. So I killed you. I was actually hoping I wouldn't have to seeing as you'd done so much GM'ing and not very much playing, but... I couldn't see any way of not killing you and still have relatively even odds of both sides winning.

Besides. See it as revenge at last for LG23. 

You don't think I know exactly who killed me? Of course I do.  I would like to point out that by the time you killed me my role had been nerfed enough that I was no longer dangerous as a role whatsoever. The only danger was through Len or my own instincts. So I don't really think that reasoning's particularly valid.  Your second reason, on the other hand, I'm happy to accept. (Same reason I didn't get irritated at Lopen for killing me C1 in QF17. It's the price I had to pay.)

And yeah, Len, I see what you're saying. I'm sorry, I didn't word things quite correctly - it's more that... you loved being an elim, but even more loved the idea of being a double agent for the village, so you had no qualms about betraying your "team" because they weren't your team, correct? And that makes sense to me. I'm just saying it's not what most people would've done, because most viewed it (or, at least, I did- I don't speak for everyone) as an option or a way to turn village if things got desperate. Not automatically as a spy among the elims. Unfortunately, acting in the way you did (with the combination of the elims being so open about strategy/roles/etc) broke the game. 

But... hm. The problem I have isn't so much that you broke the game as the "projected that working for the village gave me a higher chance of winning" part. It is, of course, important to try to win.  But you don't seem to have stopped and considered how the eliminators would've felt in that circumstance. It's exactly no fun to have your team ratted out and you die with no chance of winning whatsoever. (Similar things have happened before, to one extent or another. MR2 in particular comes to mind, when there were exactly 0 village deaths.) And even if you choose to work against them, that doesn't mean all of their enjoyment should be taken out of the game as a result. If you'd taken your info to someone actually willing to use it, the game would've essentially ended immediately (possibly with having to hunt Lopen down for a while). And that's not fun for anyone, let alone the GMs who worked so hard on this game. So yes, winning is important, but taking into account fun at least to an extent is important, too.  

*Note that I don't mean to offend you or really load all of the blame for this on you, Len. That comment just exemplified an attitude that's been brought up a couple times recently, and I don't think it's a great one to have. :/ We're Gentlemen Killers, remember? We kill courteously. Not savagely, not without a care for the victim. Respectfully. We murder and we jest about it afterwards. And I don't want to ever see that change. 

[Elenion]

2 hours ago, Elbereth said:

I'm sorry, I didn't word things quite correctly - it's more that... you loved being an elim, but even more loved the idea of being a double agent for the village, so you had no qualms about betraying your "team" because they weren't your team, correct?

Exactly.

2 hours ago, Elbereth said:

But you don't seem to have stopped and considered how the eliminators would've felt in that circumstance. It's exactly no fun to have your team ratted out and you die with no chance of winning whatsoever.

I'll keep this in mind in the future. In the late-night and sleep-deprived state I was in when I planned that out (I remember it well) I didn't consider that we weren't dealing with 20-some-odd clones of Len.

2 hours ago, Elbereth said:

Note that I don't mean to offend you or really load all of the blame for this on you, Len.

No offense taken; your points have Merit.

[Elbereth]

No problem.  You're a reasonable person. I'm sure you'll be great.  

...Wow. I'm surprised no one had used that pun in this game before now... That's horrible. >> Really, truly horrific. 

[Magestar]

9 hours ago, Elenion said:

I ran the probabilities and projected that working for the village gave me a higher chance of winning, so I took that route.

Did you actually run the probabilities, or are you just saying you did because it sounds cool? 

I just say I run probabilities, I really don't.

7 hours ago, Elbereth said:

It's exactly no fun to have your team ratted out and you die with no chance of winning whatsoever.

Actually, I enjoyed fostering a grudge throughout that game.  

If you read through the doc, you'll see that I seriously considered killing absolutely everyone after Len defected.  Going last man standing would have been rather rude towards my team, though, so I ended up not doing it.

But Len, I'll just say that Bard got to you first.  

[Elenion]

10 hours ago, Magestar said:

Did you actually run the probabilities, or are you just saying you did because it sounds cool? 

I actually did run them, but used imprecise data because I was only going for an approximation.

10 hours ago, Magestar said:

Actually, I enjoyed fostering a grudge throughout that game. 

The way my game ethics goes, you would have been well within your rights to kill your own teammate that game. I enjoy a good friendly grudge.

10 hours ago, Magestar said:

But Len, I'll just say that Bard got to you first. 

Karma has a way of doing that.

[Alvron]

Many thanks and upvotes to Aman for running his game.  While I didn't pay much attention to it while running, the bits I saw looked great.  But then faction games are some of my favorites.  So many chances to backstab people. I mean the option to give someone a holoCam then killing them so they see their death coming would've been so much fun.  Alas, next time maybe.

If anyone would like to try their hand at running a game, please get a hold of Gamma, Wilson, Metacognition or myself. Not only will we get you added to the list, but we'd also be more than willing to help out in any way we can.

You can also ask questions and get some hints and feedback from everyone over here in our Art of Game Creation thread as well. With all the games that we've run so far, we have plenty of experienced GMs that can help you refine any game you're thinking about!

Thanks again to everyone that played and we look forward to killing seeing you in future games!