18 posts in this topic

Let's tackle that topic. Unfortunately we lack WoBs about it (or my theoryland search-fu is weaker than I thought) but we can still discuss about it. Feel free to throw WoBs at me.

SOURCES

There are four main sources of the differences in Allomantic strength:

Inherent difference: some Allomancers are born stronger and some are born weaker (and some rebuild themselves during their Ascension...) . I believe the difference is in the amount of the Innate Investiture.

Hemalurgy: after charging a spike with the ability of someone else, it adds up to the strength of the Allomancer. That ability remains tied to the spike and spikes hold Investiture, so they steal and add up the Innate Investiture.

Nicrosil Feruchemy: it's possible to store Innate Investiture in nicrosil and upon drawing from that storage the Allomantic strength is increased. This obviously changes the amount of Innate Investiture.

Savantism: it widens the cracks in the Spiritweb, allowing more power to flow in. Here I am not so sure it changes the amount of the Innate Investiture.
WoB:

Spoiler

#1

Quote

Question

There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too?

Brandon Sanderson

Thats the scale of what we call savant. Wax can do more with less. Its not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power.

Question

So can bronze savants pierce Copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the Coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes.

Question

So Elend could theoretically learn to pierce Copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Weaker ones, yeah, totally. He can learn how to do it by brute force.
source

 

I believe that the amount of the Innate Investiture is directly proportional to the strength of the Connection to Preservation.

MECHANISM

Now, we are not really sure how does Allomantic Strength work.
The main theory is that it allows the Allomancer to burn metal quicker - the normal burning rate is higher than the average and the flaring burning rate is higher than average flaring burning rate. It also assumes that the Investiture density of the metal is fixed - no matter who burns it, the same amount of the metal will produce the same amount of the Investiture.

The other theory is that stronger Allomancers get more Investiture from the fixed amount of metal. So here the Investiture density is tied to Allomancer and is directly proportional to the Allomantic strength of the burner.

I could see how the amount of the Innate Investiture you have changes the normal burn rate and flaring burn rate but it seems that's not what is happening with savantism. Savantism cracks the soul more "allowing more Investiture to flow in". So it would mean that the burn rate remains the same but more Investiture flows in.

I don't like that conclusion but it seems logical.

Soo... thoughts, WoBs, counter-evidence?

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I think that you are right in that thinking. I always thought that the metals attuned the power(sort of) in your spirit web, and that savants just had a more attuned spirit web that relied on the metal, but I think this one makes more sense.

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I've been under the impression that allomantic strength related to the ratio of investiture to metal burnt, not the burning speed. However, I don't recall any WoBs or anything in the book which said so. In any case, the WoB you quoted seems to vaguely support that, that Wax gets more investiture from the same amount of metal, that it really could mean anything.

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There is a WoB about who explicity states that an "Allomancer Strenght" is about "how much metal/sec you may burn" but I have always problem to find this specific WoB (every some month there is again need of it XD).

Anyway a Savant twisted sDNA allows him to burn faster than his "standard limit" an example is Spook hyperflare (I don't know actually as it is called in the English book) states in the HoA or for example every description of Wax's inner burning....while other Allomancer feel a "warm" in their stomach, Vax feels a "fierce flame" when burns Steel.

PS: I wil Edit the post with the actual WoB as soon as I find it again

EDIT: The Relevant WoB (source)

Quote

Q: Does a more powerful Mistborn burn their metals more quickly, or do they use what they get more efficiently?

A: Metal burning speed is proportional to power withdrawn

How can I make a request to put this WoB on Theoryland ? It's stressful to find it every time

Edited by Yata
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1 hour ago, Yata said:

A: Metal burning speed is proportional to power withdrawn

Have an Upvote. Far be it for me to argue with the Word of Brandon, but I just feel like a Savant would realize that they ran out of metals quicker than they used to.

Upon second thoughts, that would only work on the quicker burning metals, and probably only in the more modern eras when science isn't suppressed.. hmm

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2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Have an Upvote. Far be it for me to argue with the Word of Brandon, but I just feel like a Savant would realize that they ran out of metals quicker than they used to.

Upon second thoughts, that would only work on the quicker burning metals, and probably only in the more modern eras when science isn't suppressed.. hmm

well usually Misting aren't in group to compare burning rate

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18 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Question

There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too?

Brandon Sanderson

Thats the scale of what we call savant. Wax can do more with less. Its not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power.

That's the WoB in the first post.

While your WoB confirms that stronger Allomancers can burn metals faster... that WoB is a little like dodging the question. If we want to be really strict on this, it only confirms that larger amount of Innate Investiture (so inborn, spikes, Feruchemical nicrosil) corresponds to higher burning rate.

But savants don't mess with their Allomantic strength. In the WoB I quoted stronger Mistborns are "quantitative difference" while savants are "qualitative difference". And Brandon even says that "Wax can do more with less". It either means savants do get extra Investiture apart from the usual Investiture/mass ratio of the metal or that normally there is a loss of power along the way from Preservation to the effect of the Allomancy and savants have improved efficiency here.

If I ever have a chance to meet Brandon I'll surely ask him that.

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This indeed is strange.

The only way I could fit this two sources, is "the power obtained for metal is constant but a Savant is able to direct it better (less waste,ecc..)"

Edited by Yata
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Savantism is weird. Steel Savantism doesn't have obvious drawbacks (Wax doesn't suffer when not burning) but it seems to give you extra precision / finesse or something (Wax's steel bubble). I think that's what's meant by "Wax can do more with less" - not extra power, but he is better at using it.

But Spook's Tin Savantism really does seem to enhance his tin power level, and massively so -  but at the cost of severe drawbacks.

Bronze Savantism is no big deal - you get more range but no dramatic effects. That could be more power, or it could be a lower "detection threshold" - your brain is better at working with your bronze-sense.

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36 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Savantism is weird. Steel Savantism doesn't have obvious drawbacks (Wax doesn't suffer when not burning) but it seems to give you extra precision / finesse or something (Wax's steel bubble). I think that's what's meant by "Wax can do more with less" - not extra power, but he is better at using it.

But Spook's Tin Savantism really does seem to enhance his tin power level, and massively so -  but at the cost of severe drawbacks.

Bronze Savantism is no big deal - you get more range but no dramatic effects. That could be more power, or it could be a lower "detection threshold" - your brain is better at working with your bronze-sense.

Hmmm.

Tin allomancy works on the body itself, a feature we all have, and so it's enhancements do too...but so too does the resulting insensitivity. Like how pewter thugs lose sensitivity to fatigue. The natural sense becomes warped to the extent that it doesn't function normally. 

Iron/Steel allomancy, though, don't correspond to a normal sense or attribute of people and so even in a 'warped' state the mind and body still function.

 

Like...I don't think aluminium or bronze savantism would suffer any real drawback.

That's my thoughts.  

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20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Bronze Savantism is no big deal - you get more range but no dramatic effects.

Strong Allomancers who became bronze savants could learn to pierce copperclouds of lesser Allomancers. It's in the WoB in the first post.

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4 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Strong Allomancers who became bronze savants could learn to pierce copperclouds of lesser Allomancers. It's in the WoB in the first post.

OK, granted. But this still seems to be a relatively minor increase in strength; Vin can pierce any normal late-FE-strength coppercloud with double-strength bronze. Spook's senses are way more than double a normal Tineye, given how sensitive to light his eyes are.

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10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

OK, granted. But this still seems to be a relatively minor increase in strength; Vin can pierce any normal late-FE-strength coppercloud with double-strength bronze. Spook's senses are way more than double a normal Tineye, given how sensitive to light his eyes are.

Here's a thought. None of the Inquisitors learned how to sense Feruchemy.

"More with Less" granting better precision/skill (as we believe the Steel Bubble to be) fits with sensing the other systems easier, as Brandon has said that Feruchemy would be rather difficult, and the other magics aren't something they have a baseline bronze pulse for yet.

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On 10/1/2016 at 0:16 AM, cometaryorbit said:

Spook's senses are way more than double a normal Tineye, given how sensitive to light his eyes are.

That's not necessarily true.  What is "double" your normal sight?  It's not zoom, since that's how Feruchemical tin works with sight, but we're told it's different.  It's not light sensitivity alone, though that's obviously part of it.  I don't think his extra sensitivity to light is given in enough detail to know how much more it is.  I mean, if the sunlight outside became 30% brighter than its normal maximum, I'd probably be near blind, especially since I'm already sensitive to bright light.

jW

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4 hours ago, Jondesu said:

That's not necessarily true.  What is "double" your normal sight?  It's not zoom, since that's how Feruchemical tin works with sight, but we're told it's different.  It's not light sensitivity alone, though that's obviously part of it.  I don't think his extra sensitivity to light is given in enough detail to know how much more it is.  I mean, if the sunlight outside became 30% brighter than its normal maximum, I'd probably be near blind, especially since I'm already sensitive to bright light.

jW

It's not just that he has trouble in daylight - "the starlight was like daylight to him", and "the fires of the city were so bright that his flared tin made it difficult to see". Those fires would be far, far less bright than daylight.

 

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On 10/1/2016 at 2:16 PM, cometaryorbit said:

OK, granted. But this still seems to be a relatively minor increase in strength; Vin can pierce any normal late-FE-strength coppercloud with double-strength bronze. Spook's senses are way more than double a normal Tineye, given how sensitive to light his eyes are.

I believe the HoA epigraphs mention both that most savantism is relatively slight and sort of make a point that tin savantism is a special breed.

Basically, savantism isn't equal across metals.

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8 hours ago, Savanorn said:

I believe the HoA epigraphs mention both that most savantism is relatively slight and sort of make a point that tin savantism is a special breed.

Basically, savantism isn't equal across metals.

Yea, we(some people) basically feel that metals like pewter/tin have much more pronounced effect because they affect physical things like your senses/pain sense, rather than push/pull and magic sense, because we don't naturally have that ability

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1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Yea, we(some people) basically feel that metals like pewter/tin have much more pronounced effect because they affect physical things like your senses/pain sense, rather than push/pull and magic sense, because we don't naturally have that ability

Haha I agree. I believe I voiced similar views previously in the thread. 

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