BlackYeti

theory
The Mystery Chart, Transportation, & The Oathgates (Spoilers for Jasnah's unpublished scecne)

50 posts in this topic

That's... wow. That theory looks like a lot of work went into it, and it actually makes a lot of sense. I need to think about this some more to see if I notice any inconsistencies, but if it holds up, do you mind if I espouse it? Oh, and kudos on the design analysis as well. I would never have noticed the rotational symmetry in the borders.

Edited by Bugsy6912
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Bugsy6912 Thank you so much for the kind words, it really means a lot to hear that you like it (and don't just think that I'm a bit crazy, which it kind of what I feared a bit when I saw just how big it had become).

I don't mind if you were to espouse it, I'd be delighted in fact. But absolutely check for inconsistencies first, I did my best to avoid them but it grew very large and I could easily have missed something. :)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IIRC, the only reason the Oathgates go via Urithiru at present is because Shallan states there are some kind of locks in place barring travel to the other Oathgates but I like it!

Edited by AnanasSpren
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's an interesting theory, and it seems to have some merit to it.

 

However, can someone please explain to me the rotational symmetry in the borders, because I don't see it. Both set's of borders look to me to have the exact same symmetry. If you folded these pages together, the borders would match where the pages meet.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, BlackYeti said:
  1.         Why couldn’t Jasnah use this second method to leave Shadesmar immediately?

    This is a huge gaping hole in the theory, and my only possible explanation for it is that she was simply too inexperienced with the Surge, or that she wasn’t at a high enough level in the Elsecallers at that point to be able to manipulate the Surge in that fashion. Ivory knew this so stated it as impossible for her to leave without being at a junction.

 

We have a WoB that Jasnah is inexperienced (emphasis added):

 

Quote

 

QUESTION

Is Jasnah still alive at the end of the book, since the whole scene where she kind of appears...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, she is.

ARGENT

Why does she take so long to come back?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Because Elsecalling is not precise even if you know what you are doing, which she doesn't.

 

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Shardbearer said:

It's an interesting theory, and it seems to have some merit to it.

 

However, can someone please explain to me the rotational symmetry in the borders, because I don't see it. Both set's of borders look to me to have the exact same symmetry. If you folded these pages together, the borders would match where the pages meet.

If you look closely at the woman's safehand, it's rotated. Here's a closer image of the place where they would fold over. 

Spoiler for size. 

Spoiler

image.jpg

 

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great theory. I think that the solution for problem 3 could be that it didn't change because the Soulcasting we have seen has alsways been done from the Cognitive Realm, not the Physical Realm. Perhaps Jasnah can Soulcast from the Physical, but everything we have seen still worked by having the mind of the Soulcaster in question be moved to the Cognitive Realm, making Soulcasting while being in the Cognitive Realm with your mind the same as Soulcasting while being in the Cognitive Realm in the flesh.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, AnanasSpren said:

IIRC, the only reason the Oathgates go via Urithiru at present is because Shallan states there are some kind of locks in place barring travel to the other Oathgates but I like it!

Firstly let me say that I’m really glad that you like it, and also thank you very much for your feedback. With that being said, I don’t think that this is much of a problem with regard to my theory.

Whilst I may have jumped the gun a little by saying that we know that the system works the way I states (since now that I think about it I can’t remember ever hearing it be confirmed explicitly), it is nevertheless very strongly implied that it works the way that I stated, and as such I feel fairly confident to use it in the theory like this. Consider the following description of the Oathgate at Urithiru from Chapter 87 of Words of Radiance:

Quote

The field was ringed by ten columnar plateaus, with steps winding around their bases. The Oathgates.

From this it seems clear that each of these plateaus is paired with one of the Kingdoms’ Oathgates, and the Oathgate you would travel to would be determined by which plateau you were on when activating it. In fact I was probably wrong to state that there was an Oathgate at Urithiru in addition to the ones in the ten Kingdoms, when really each pair of plateaus is an Oathgate, not a single plateau (so there are 10 Oathgates in total, not 11).

If this isn’t enough to convince you, let me remind you that the Radiants reportedly taxed people for travelling through Urithiru (at least later on in the timeline). This doesn’t make much sense unless we concede that travel through the Oathgate meant travel through Urithiru, and that they were therefore taxing use of the Oathgates.

With all that being said, you are absolutely correct that the other Oathgates have been locked: they did try to travel to them from Urithiru and were unable to.

 

@Argel Thanks very much for the WoB, this makes my attempted justification for this seem a lot more likely. :D

 

13 hours ago, kenod said:

Great theory. I think that the solution for problem 3 could be that it didn't change because the Soulcasting we have seen has alsways been done from the Cognitive Realm, not the Physical Realm. Perhaps Jasnah can Soulcast from the Physical, but everything we have seen still worked by having the mind of the Soulcaster in question be moved to the Cognitive Realm, making Soulcasting while being in the Cognitive Realm with your mind the same as Soulcasting while being in the Cognitive Realm in the flesh.

Thanks, I like your idea and do think that it makes a lot of sense. That being said, I did consider this when working on the theory and ultimately decided that I liked the idea of the powers working on the different Realms at the same time more. When Jasnah (or Shallan) Soulcasts, there has always been an effect in the Physical Realm, it would make sense for there to have been another effect in the Cognitive Realm that we weren’t aware of, for each of those Soulcasts. Additionally, since a part of the theory involves powers in the Spiritual Realm, and travel to the Spiritual is still a bit of a question mark at this point, I thought setting it up this way would allow those powers to still happen with the effects being observed as they propagate down to the Physical.

I’m still a little unsure regarding the exact mechanism of these Realmatic interactions, (hence why I placed this in the Problems section) so I would rate this as a very strong alternative, but I think for the time being I’ll stick with the rationalization I stated above.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@BlackYeti, This appears to be very well thought out. It is strongly tangential to theories I have been working on.

I had a couple of observations that the glyph crackers and the Order buffs might like to pursue. In addition to the bilateral symmetry, and the 2nd order on the Truthwatchers, the larger glyphs appear to have a dual point symmetry. Specifically, when an artist pick the horizon point of a picture. that point is used to establish all parallel lines and curve directions. It is a critical part of technical illustration. In the original glyph for the Orders is given a horizon at the midplane, then -not one but two- points are selected as the infinity point, the glyphs very nearly represent what we see in the Cognitive chart. Make the lines have a thickness, and bend the lines to the infinite horizon point, and they are very close to the same. Having these lines go to a point in the sky, rather than the horizontal plane is not artiscally correct, and seems to very indicative of the way the sky in Shadesmar is always described. To me this is some validation of the glyph theory.

I am going to work on this some more in my spare time, which is rare, and than start a new post, but I very much like the border as the key to the orders and powers, and the Cognitive rather than the Voidbringer's chart. Additionally, Your explanation of the Exceptions for the two orders mentioned seems well thought and plausible. I had been wondering if the bonds might not also describe spren powers, which is why Renarin and Dalinar will not be carrying live spren swords.

Thanks for the jump in observation! Have a big upvote!

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@1stBondsmith What an insightful comment. I didn't knnow what you said about the dual point symmetry (it certainly didn't come up in my mollecular symetry class), you taught me something here. I'll have to read up on this, and give it a think, but it sounds really promising.

And as for the the point on the Shardblades, I hadn't even considered that this might be due to Realmatic interactions :o. I'd assumed that the Stormfather wouldn't become one, simply because he was throwing a tantrum. This would make so much more sense though. I have a question however: what's your basis for assuming that Renarin also won't get a sprenblade? Is there already speculation to this effect that I've missed, or are you making the connection now based off of this?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To clarify the symmetry question-

Draw a horizontal line for the inflection plane (for artists, this is flat ground. Then, by picking any point above that plane as the infinite reference, all parallel lines leading away from the viewer fo to that point. All perspective shots use this as a construct. Now instead of only one infinite point, place one below the plane directly mirroring the first. It would be like the chapter heading picture of Shadesmar mirrored downward. Now, take the Surgebinding glyphs, and bend them towards the horizon (with a little artistic leeway,) and you get the "Cognative" glyphs.

Most of my connection to Renarin not getting a live blade is from your observations, but also in his apparent inability to engage in battle. I think this is really fighting the spren he has bonded to. We will likely get more of this shortly. Dalinar can fight, (and well), but as a Bondsmith he will not use a shardblade, nor remain bonded to a dead one.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought Stormfather would not allow himself to become "trapped" - i.e. leave the cognitive - not because of the fact that he cannot, but because he's unique/more important.

Having Cusicesh (same level as Stormfather) seen by the people in the physical I think it means that he's one of the spren that was bonded by a Bondsmith in the past, which became trapped. Assuming *all* KR spren are "trapped" in shards I think it's a big fallacy.

But this theory I think is very correct in the assumption that the chart is surgebinding in shadesmar, for the simple reason that there are 10 icons on it (10 orders and 10 surges). 10 is Honor's number. Odium's number is 9.

Edited by marianmi
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, marianmi said:

Having Cusicesh (same level as Stormfather)

Pretty sure there is a WoB that puts Cusicesh and the other Unmade a step-below the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather. It's also really important to keep in mind the Stormfather is a sliver while the rest are splinters. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A sliver doesn't have power (or a lot of power). Stormfather is not a sliver.

i think that the rider of storms was a splinter, and he somehow got, hm, that shadow of honor (what you call sliver, but which actually is only the cognitive aspect of the sliver), becoming the stormfather. But I think he's more of a splinter. I don't think nahel bonds can be made with slivers, since slivers already have a physical aspect.

Edited by marianmi
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, marianmi said:

A sliver doesn't have power (or a lot of power). Stormfather is not a sliver.

i think that the rider of storms was a splinter, and he somehow got, hm, that shadow of honor (what you call sliver, but which actually is only the cognitive aspect of the sliver), becoming the stormfather. But I think he's more of a splinter. I don't think nahel bonds can be made with slivers, since slivers already have a physical aspect.

A Sliver is someone who once held a large amount of power but no longer does. Tanavast, after holding Honor and then it being Splintered, would definitely be a Sliver. It seems like you're saying that because it's only his Cognitive Shadow, he no longer qualifies as a Sliver. However, I think that the Cognitive aspect of him would still have a lot of the knowledge/residue of his time as a Shard, and therefore would be referred to as a Sliver.

Secret History spoilers:

Spoiler

This is similar to how Kelsier is referred to as a Sliver despite being a Cognitive Shadow during the time he held Preservation.

Additionally, according to the Coppermind, the Stormfather self-identified as a Sliver. I don't remember when this happened (and it isn't cited), but I'm guessing it's at the end of WoR. So I would say, based on those, that Tanavast's Shadow was definitely a Sliver, and therefore the Stormfather is as well. He is both a Splinter and a Sliver.

On another note, I'm not sure why you think that Odium's "special number" is nine, but I'd be interested in hearing about it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, BeskarKomrk said:

On another note, I'm not sure why you think that Odium's "special number" is nine, but I'd be interested in hearing about it.

On each planet, there's a "special" number corresponding to each shard. That number is 1-16. Can't remember where I saw a list proposed with each shard number, for Odium it was proposed #9. That number it's not cannon, but Odium does have a "special" number, and I bet that's the number of Unmade (according to WoB, unmade are NOT 10).

Honor's number is 10 of course.

Edited by marianmi
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, marianmi said:

On each planet, there's a "special" number corresponding to each shard. That number is 1-16. Can't remember where I saw a list proposed with each shard number, for Odium it was proposed #9. That number it's not cannon, but Odium does have a "special" number, and I bet that's the number of Unmade (according to WoB, unmade are NOT 10).

Honor's number is 10 of course.

That... explains a lot, actually. Always wondered why Roshar is partial to 9 and 10.

I agree that 9 would be Odium's number, as there were 10 original orders, but 9 disbanded; there were 10 Heralds, but 9 stayed away from Damnation; and now "Odium reigns". Maybe the year cycle is also effected? 9 months with highstorms, but 10 in total? Maybe the 10th month is the one with the Weeping?

Maybe 9 is Cultivation's number? Just in case Odium's 9 doesn't work out.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Lord_of_Awesome said:

That... explains a lot, actually. Always wondered why Roshar is partial to 9 and 10.

I agree that 9 would be Odium's number, as there were 10 original orders, but 9 disbanded; there were 10 Heralds, but 9 stayed away from Damnation; and now "Odium reigns". Maybe the year cycle is also effected? 9 months with highstorms, but 10 in total? Maybe the 10th month is the one with the Weeping?

Maybe 9 is Cultivation's number? Just in case Odium's 9 doesn't work out.

Weepings are only 4 weeks long, around the first and last 2 weeks of a year. Also, every other weeping has a highstorm in the middle so I think overall that it can be said that every month does have at least one highstorm. Nonetheless, your other points about the number nine do make sense. Would possibly make sense to be Odium's number since he was likely influencing the Heralds and Radiants to some slight degree. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, BeskarKomrk said:

 

Secret History spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

This is similar to how Kelsier is referred to as a Sliver despite being a Cognitive Shadow during the time he held Preservation.

Additionally, according to the Coppermind, the Stormfather self-identified as a Sliver. I don't remember when this happened (and it isn't cited), but I'm guessing it's at the end of WoR. So I would say, based on those, that Tanavast's Shadow was definitely a Sliver, and therefore the Stormfather is as well. He is both a Splinter and a Sliver.

On another note, I'm not sure why you think that Odium's "special number" is nine, but I'd be interested in hearing about it.

I think we actually knew that before Secret History from a WOB.

Yes, it's the end of WOR - Chapter 82:

Quote

“I am the sliver of Him that remains. I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I… I fled.

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To bring this back on track...

I've been studying the charts some more and I think that @BlackYeti is on solid ground here with the Cognitive (Shadesmar) surgebinding chart. As Brandon likes to give us world with real world science mixed in, here are some thoughts on the cognitive realm that might help this make sense. Consider:

1. We know that space has different bounds and areas of less cognition are smaller space in Shadesmar vs. the Physical realm.

2. With a spherical bending of space, specifically instead of three or two dimensional planar space, we have space represented as a "bent back on itself" space where straight lines connect to themselves at infinity. This is a common representation of a 4th dimensional or even more dimensional train of thought. I do not want other physicists to argue the representation, as I know these are endless topics for decades, but I want you to consider if Brandon and his illustrators want us to see this as a different dimensional plane, we have a lot of clues here. 1. All the lines in the sky going to one point 2. spheres representing the tangible ideas of objects, 3. the spherical shape of all the glyphs, 4. the point symmetry to the glyphs, 4. Kelsier's ability to cross the plane and have a tie to the plane still. Gravity still pushed him to the plane from below implying a spherical plane symmetry.

3. Travel there is very relativistic, with cognitively active areas taking up space, and other areas not. This also implies other dimensional representation. (like a Thought =Space direct or secondary correlation), and thus transcends planetary boundaries. I would assume this is true for the Spiritual Realm as well.

This is a strong train of thought and needs to be considered more. There is a lot to add, but I really like the connotations. It gives a good scientific flavor to the Realmatic Theory.

PS. This would be a more complete picture with a spiritual chart of surgebinding. Imagine the lines and connections we would see and not see that would give a three-plane view of surgebinging. I think I will make this someday when we get the surge connections completed. WOW! Brandon is very cool to have thought of this from way back when! Simply astounding!

Edited by 1stBondsmith
Spelling and PS
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/27/2016 at 4:48 PM, marianmi said:

On each planet, there's a "special" number corresponding to each shard. That number is 1-16. Can't remember where I saw a list proposed with each shard number, for Odium it was proposed #9. That number it's not cannon, but Odium does have a "special" number, and I bet that's the number of Unmade (according to WoB, unmade are NOT 10).

Honor's number is 10 of course.

Is there a WoB on that? I don't think that's the case, especially given what we know about

Mistborn Spoiler:

Quote

Preservation's choice of 16.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually seems the facts seems more to point with "shardworld number" than "shard number" but this indeed a not strictly rule

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The discussion on the Shards' numbers should probably belong to its own thread.

As for the theory, I like it a lot. Also, I have a tiny bit of additional information I cannot share with you, but it also fits this theory. So good job, this is now my officially espoused theory on what that second chart is.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.