Timeline Confusion

[one winged jhereg]

So how long after the heralds broke the oathpact did the recreance happen?  what were the KR doing the whole time before they gave up their blades and plate?  who were they fighting?

[Spoolofwhool]

14 minutes ago, one winged jhereg said:

So how long after the heralds broke the oathpact did the recreance happen?  what were the KR doing the whole time before they gave up their blades and plate?  who were they fighting?

We don't know how long it was between the Last Desolation and the Recreance, though it is estimated to be a few millenia. During that time, the KR were likely just governing Roshar, and as implied by certain epigraphs in Wok\K and WoR, slowly becoming more corrupt. 

[Eki]

I think all we know is that the Recreance was a long time ago.

The Knights were always much more than fighters. I'm pretty sure there was very little need for fighting outside of Desolations. Windrunners, Skybreakers and perhaps a few other orders probably acted as police in different (and sometimes opposing) ways.

[The One Who Connects]

Best we've got it these WoB's: Here, here and here

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Question

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

Brandon Sanderson

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

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zas678

How long ago was the Recreance from modern day or from the Heirocracy?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heirocracy is in recent history, the Recreance is in ancient history.

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Argent

In terms of timeline-- So The Way of Kings and the Stormlight Archive takes place 1173-4 right now, how far ago, approximately, was the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

So you-- Let’s see-- Heralds leave at what, 4500?

Argent

That’s what it says.

Brandon Sanderson

So the Heralds leave at 4500 and we’re at 11--

Argent

So we are at 5500 years after--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So Recreance is more recent than late.

Argent

So… In the thousands--

Brandon Sanderson

I’m going to have to pull out the timeline.

Argent

But it’s not like three hundred years ago.

Brandon Sanderson

It’s not like three hundred years ago, but it’s also not like 4000 years ago.

Argent

Okay, so from the middle--

Brandon Sanderson

The Hierocracy happened after (the recreance) and the Hierocracy was a couple hundred years ago. It’s longer than that even, it’s like five or six hundred years ago I think.

Recreance is minimum 700+ years ago, considered "ancient history" by brandon, but also "more recent than late." Personally, that makes it sound like ... 2,000-2,500ish? Opinions, comments, concerns?

[BeskarKomrk]

We discussed this a bit in another thread here:

Based on those WoBs that you mentioned, as well as the Letter in the WoR epigraphs, I believe the Recreance was at least 2000 years ago, probably a little more than that.

[nervousnerd]

1 hour ago, Eki said:

I think all we know is that the Recreance was a long time ago.

The Knights were always much more than fighters. I'm pretty sure there was very little need for fighting outside of Desolations. Windrunners, Skybreakers and perhaps a few other orders probably acted as police in different (and sometimes opposing) ways.

That is true but there was definitely fighting going on though. We don't know against who but fighting was something that was happening at the time of the Recreance:

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"This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine."

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“But why?” the darkeyed officer demanded. “Why are Radiants coming here? They should be fighting the devils on the front lines!”

This was extremely unlikely to have been the Listeners or Voidbinders in my opinion. Do we know when the Scouring of Aimia happened? The use of devils has always confused me because it makes me think of non-human foes.

I have also wondered if whoever they were fighting kept trying to fight after the Recreance occurred. I mean, if the Radiants were having an intense fight with them then what are the chances that normal men that just picked up shardblades would fare any better (especially when infighting would be common).

[Eki]

1 minute ago, nervousnerd said:

That is true but there was definitely fighting going on though. We don't know against who but fighting was something that was happening at the time of the Recreance:

This was extremely unlikely to have been the Listeners or Voidbinders in my opinion. Do we know when the Scouring of Aimia happened? The use of devils has always confused me because it makes me think of non-human foes.

I have also wondered if whoever they were fighting kept trying to fight after the Recreance occurred. I mean, if the Radiants were having an intense fight with them then what are the chances that normal men that just picked up shardblades would fare any better (especially when infighting would be common).

Good points. I still feel like wars must have been rare, and that this was a very unusual time, even before the Knights abandoned the oaths.

[Sand Master]

Here's another thing to consider: Jasnah has said that she believes that Urithiru fell out of use even before the Recreance. For such an incredible and safe (from highstorms) city, why would they simply abandon it while they still had the capacity to travel there? Could it have had something to do with whoever they were fighting before the Recreance happened?

[The One Who Connects]

23 minutes ago, Sand Master said:

Here's another thing to consider: Jasnah has said that she believes that Urithiru fell out of use even before the Recreance. For such an incredible and safe (from highstorms) city, why would they simply abandon it while they still had the capacity to travel there? Could it have had something to do with whoever they were fighting before the Recreance happened?

One of the quotes, not sure if it's also from Jasnah's notes or in world WoR, mentioned the "taxes through Urithiru getting unreasonable" and called it Radiant corruption. I, and maybe others, feel like there was a stormlight tax to run the Oathgates. That's probably why it fell from popularity and then out of use.
I hadn't considered a connection to whoever they were fighting though, that's the kind of cleverness Brandon would try hiding in plain sight

[Sand Master]

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

One of the quotes, not sure if it's also from Jasnah's notes or in world WoR, mentioned the "taxes through Urithiru getting unreasonable" and called it Radiant corruption. I, and maybe others, feel like there was a stormlight tax to run the Oathgates. That's probably why it fell from popularity and then out of use.
I hadn't considered a connection to whoever they were fighting though, that's the kind of cleverness Brandon would try hiding in plain sight

Well I've also wondered why nobody made permanent homes on Urithiru. Was it not possible to grow food there? If not, then I could understand it, but if food could be grown there, then why wouldn't people make it a permanent home? And if they had, then even if the Oathgates stopped being used I would imagine people would have continued to live there.

[PantsForSquares]

3 hours ago, nervousnerd said:

Do we know when the Scouring of Aimia happened? The use of devils has always confused me because it makes me think of non-human foes.

All we know about the Scouring of Aimia is that it's a relatively recent event, at least from Axies' point of view. If Aimians lived longer than humans on Roshar by a long shot, then that might be what it's referring to, but I don't think that's the case.

[nervousnerd]

1 hour ago, Sand Master said:

Well I've also wondered why nobody made permanent homes on Urithiru. Was it not possible to grow food there? If not, then I could understand it, but if food could be grown there, then why wouldn't people make it a permanent home? And if they had, then even if the Oathgates stopped being used I would imagine people would have continued to live there.

Yeah. I believe I mentioned something like this before as well. I'm certain there were mentions of gardens on the balconies of Urithiru though. I assumed this meant that food could easily be grown there. Soulcasting is fine but stormlight is unlikely to be something that they wasted in large amounts when other methods were available.

9 minutes ago, PantsForSquares said:

All we know about the Scouring of Aimia is that it's a relatively recent event, at least from Axies' point of view. If Aimians lived longer than humans on Roshar by a long shot, then that might be what it's referring to, but I don't think that's the case.

I agree. It is unlikely. Even if it were, it technically should be no different than if they were fighting humans. Aimians are obviously intelligent beings and I can't see (at least certain) Radiants being able to kill them indiscriminately in the same way it would likely be hard to keep to their oaths and kill humans. It isn't what they were designed for.

[+hwiles]

23 hours ago, Sand Master said:

Well I've also wondered why nobody made permanent homes on Urithiru. Was it not possible to grow food there? If not, then I could understand it, but if food could be grown there, then why wouldn't people make it a permanent home? And if they had, then even if the Oathgates stopped being used I would imagine people would have continued to live there.

People probably tried to live there for a while after the Oathgates shut down, but its economy seems to have been driven by taxes and commerce that it would have very suddenly completely lost access to.  People could have trudged on with a meager agricultural existence, but the lack reasonable trade routes (or trade-goods...), accessible soulcasters, and probably a near-complete loss of spiritual purpose among inhabitants probably contributed to a rapid depopulating of the city.  Once the gates shut down they very quickly would have become completely out of the way and irrelevant in terms of economics or diplomacy.  There was probably also some ill-will toward the people or Urithiru after the Recreance, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of its inhabitants suffered violent persecution or siege.  I could totally see an Alethi lord like Sadeas sending a couple shard bearers to go purge Urithiru and plunder whatever they could carry right after the fall of the Radiants for the simple reason that:

1) no one would have been able to stop them

2) no one would have been likely to care

3) scapegoating Urithiru as the cause for the world's problems would probably have been easy

[Sand Master]

How would this hypothetical Alethi lord have sent people to Urithiru right after the fall of the Radiants? You need a Surgebinder to get there, and besides, the city was already out of use when the Recreance happened.

[nervousnerd]

Yeah. From what I understood there is no real way to get to Urithiru without the oathgates (unless you are Nohadon). While it may have been that nobody was looking for it there because its location wasn't known and therefore they did not try to find another way, I find that unlikely. Szeth talks about a community that is located near Urithiru that leaves him stormlight offerings. They seem to believe he is a Radiant because he comes down from Urithiru. If it was accessible, would those people not have either lived there or at least have taken what they could from there?