Hidden Worldhopper?

[Sand Master]

So I recently finished re-reading Way of Kings for the third time. While reading it, I remember placing a note (ebook version, so I have highlighted and noted a lot of passages) about what at the time seemed a relatively unimportant scene. Then, browsing the forums just now, I read this question to Brandon:

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ArgentSun: Hi! I know you've been known to answer the occasional Sharder question in the comments of those regular updates of yours (which I very much appreciate!), so I wanted to try to get a clarification on a thing or two.

Recently, at DragonCon, you talked briefly about detecting worldhoppers by examining their speech, and you mentioned Hoid using "coin" on Roshar, where there are no coins.

 

The reason I find this so interesting is because the passage I noted (in chapter 54: Gibletish) contains Highprince Hatham, Dalinar, and an ardent talking to a Natan man. The ardent says this: "One wonders if you are equally devout when not standing on our soil." I found this a bit strange, since the only place on Roshar where soil exists is in Shinovar, and we've seen that practically nobody knows what it is. It's also not an idiomatic phrase, since Rysn's babsk has to explain to her the meaning of the word. Yet here is an Alethi ardent on the Shattered Plains, about as far away from Shinovar as you can get, using the word soil. Even if we consider that this ardent somehow traveled to Shinovar at one point, and that he grew comfortable enough with their phrases to use soil metaphorically like this, why would he do so when surrounded by people who won't know what he's talking about? At first I had considered this to simply be a slip-up in the writing, since to us on Earth that sort of phrase is relatively commonplace. But after seeing this mention that you could discover worldhoppers by examining their speech, and then a very similar example being used to demonstrate, I am suddenly less sure. Thoughts?

[ParadoxicalZen]

Huh, nice catch. It is weird, it definitely isn't something you'd expect to hear

[Yata]

This may be a clue, but we have to notice that is possible this Ardent spent a lot of time outside the Vorin Kingdom as (for example) if He is a diplomatic or missionary.

We see other Ardent in the farest places of Roshar as for example the couple on the Reishi Island.

[Sand Master]

25 minutes ago, Yata said:

This may be a clue, but we have to notice that is possible this Ardent spent a lot of time outside the Vorin Kingdom as (for example) if He is a diplomatic or missionary.

We see other Ardent in the farest places of Roshar as for example the couple on the Reishi Island.

 But some of the Reshi Isles are actually very close to Alethkar. And even the farthest ones aren't as far away as Shinovar. And even if they were that far, there's no guarantee that they came from Alethkar in the first place. There are other Vorin kingdoms.

[Yata]

Sure I wanted just to point that the use of "soil" is still possible inside Roshar for people with peculiar background.

[Dihatimus]

Perhaps it is like hoids statement referring to the axehounds. They use the term hound, but there are no hounds. It may be that there used to be hounds, like there used to be lions or rather things that resembled lions. The word "soil" could have found its way into language from a period where soil covered all the land and then stayed. then over time changed without anyone really knowing that it specifically should refer to dirt, used interchangeably instead with territory, lands, country, region, realm. Maybe?

[Argent]

Hmm, no, this is definitely interesting. 

I did a search for the word "soil" in The Way of Kings, and there are only a few places where the word appears - and some of those places are ones where it makes sense (e.g. when Vstim is talking about the actual soil in Shinnovar). So let's go over those.

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Words spoken by Tukks years ago returned to him, words spoken on that bright summer day when he’d first held a weapon in Amaram’s army. The first step is to care, Tukks’s voice seemed to whisper. Some talk about being emotionless in battle. Well, I suppose it’s important to keep your head. But I hate that feeling of killing while calm and cold. I’ve seen that those who care fight harder, longer, and better than those who don’t. It’s the difference between mercenaries and real soldiers. It’s the difference between fighting to defend your homeland and fighting on foreign soil.

The Way of Kings, Chapter 27: Chasm Duty

So this is coming from Tukks, Kaladin's... I don't remember, some kind of mentor?, from the army. Perhaps it's worth looking into him a little more?

Interlude 4: Rysn has three references to "soil," but all of them are proper - e.g. Vstim telling Rysn that the soft ground under her feet is called soil, Rysn musing about its strangeness, and Vstim instructing her to get plenty of soil for her grass. So we'll skip those.

Interlude 6: Szeth has Szeth thinking about his time back in Shinnovar, with buildings "built with clay and soil." He also wonders how the people in the East could avoid walking on stone, since they have no soil here. So nothing odd here.

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“The Order of Talenelat?” Au-nak said. “I always considered that a devotary for the lesser people.”
“This from a Natan,” the Ardent said, stuffily.
“My family has always been devoutly Vorin.”
“Yes,” the ardent replied, “conveniently so, since your family has used its Vorin ties to trade favorably in Alethkar. One wonders if you are equally devout when not standing on our soil.”

The Way of Kings, Chapter 54: Gibletish

This is the passage @Sand Master was referring to, obviously. The ardent in question is not thoroughly described, so here's what we know about him from the previous couple of pages:

• He is "short white-robed ardent Dalinar didn't know"
• He takes offense in Au-nak's (the Natan man Hatham was talking with) comment that "religion is but an excuse. Or perhaps a justification."
• He has some knowledge of Sesemalex Dar and the Emuli. In his words:
  “The city’s pattern is central to the Emuli religion,” the ardent said. “They claim it is their ancestral homeland, a gift to them from the Heralds. And the Tukari are led by that god-priest of theirs, Tezim. So the conflict is religious in nature.”
• He mocks and/or insults Au-Nak, referring to him as an "insufferable bore." Dalinar calls him bold for insulting "a man Hatham wants to do business with." It turns out the ardent belongs to Hatham and was playing a political game when insulting the Natan.
• And this is where something interesting happens...

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  “Just as Hatham wishes his partner in negotiations to know of his goodwill, I wish you to know of our goodwill toward you, Brightlord.”
  Dalinar frowned. He’d never had much to do with the ardents — his devotary was simple and straightforward. Dalinar got his fill of politics with the court; he had little desire to find more in religion.
  “Why? What should it matter if you have goodwill toward me?”
  The ardent smiled. “We will speak with you again.” He bowed low and withdrew.

  It is very possible that we are overthinking things here, but I think it's certainly possible that that the ardent here is not referring to the ardentia when he talks about "our goodwill" or that "we will speak with you again"

[Argel]

Ugh! I forgot about the political games going on there. Adds a lot of confusion on how to interpret things, and use of "soil" could be used to imply something such as ties to Roshar. 

The "on foreign soil" one could be a Roshar to English translation (much like how puns would be translated into something that makes sense here). 

 

Shallan uses "soiled" twice. In TWoK it is used figuratively so could be a Roshar to English translation:

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Shallan to Kabsal: You see, my father is precisely the type of man to hang a picture facing the wrong way. That way, it can’t be soiled by unworthy eyes or touched by unworthy fingers.”

 

In WoR however she uses it literally (or at least close to literally):

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Shallan PoV: her dress frayed and soiled.

On the other hand, her family has/had quarries or mines (that ran out, which is why they needed the soulcaster). And mines are not unusual on Roshar -- not sure if the word "soil" would come up at a mine, but worth considering it as a possibility. I would think "dirt" would be more likely myself.

Anyway, I do agree that it seems a bit odd, and likely hints at something.

[Sand Master]

@Argent That's right! I remember thinking that the way the ardent said that was odd, but I had forgotten about it until you pointed that out. The fact that the ardent was so vague and didn't explain what he meant is very suspicious to me.

[CalaCrisp88]

I think it's just a thing with translating Alethi into English. You never actually hear "green on your ears" or anything like that in Warbreaker, but that's because the idioms are translated into their English equivalent. Since Roshar's idioms aren't the same as those of Nalthis, they're noticeable when Vasher uses them.

[nervousnerd]

Tukks was unlikely to have ever left Alethkar. I doubt he was very high nahn. Not sure what to make of him using it. It is interesting with the ardent though. Especially with what he said afterwards.
 

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The Codes, Dalinar thought, turning toward his fighting men. Never ask of your men a sacrifice you wouldn’t make yourself. Never make them fight in conditions you would refuse to fight in yourself. Never ask a man to perform an act you wouldn’t soil your own hands doing.

This is another mention. It is also less interesting because it is a quote from the codes and therefore not in Dalinar's words. But I suppose it may be proof that the word soil is used at least in regard to making something dirty.

[Sand Master]

Reading through this chapter a bit more, I noticed that this is also the chapter where Wit tells Dalinar that he is leaving, that, "The cosmere, unfortunately, takes precedence over free food." We know that members of the 17th Shard are chasing Hoid. What if this ardent is a Worldhopper, part of the 17th Shard, and Wit is leaving because he knows that they have caught up to him and are close to finding him?

[Sand Master]

I'm now re-reading Words of Radiance, and there is a part that I think may be very relevant to this. In chapter 31, Kaladin sees Rock "shooing away a lanky man in an ardent's robe." When Kaladin asks about it, we see:

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"That one," Rock said. "Keeps loitering here with sketchbook. Wants to draw bridgemen. Ha! Because we are famous, you see." 
Kaladin frowned. Strange actions for an ardent...

This is another unnamed ardent in the warcamps behaving strangely. Additionally, he's drawing bridgemen.

This is from earlier in the book. Look at the text. "I had to spend hours watching bridgemen to sketch their stupid forehead glyphs..." And it's signed by Nazh, a confirmed Worldhopper.

I think that the ardent that started this whole thing, and the one talked about in WoR, are both Nazh.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Sand Master

[Savanorn]

3 hours ago, Sand Master said:

I'm now re-reading Words of Radiance, and there is a part that I think may be very relevant to this. In chapter 31, Kaladin sees Rock "shooing away a lanky man in an ardent's robe." When Kaladin asks about it, we see:

This is another unnamed ardent in the warcamps behaving strangely. Additionally, he's drawing bridgemen.

This is from earlier in the book. Look at the text. "I had to spend hours watching bridgemen to sketch their stupid forehead glyphs..." And it's signed by Nazh, a confirmed Worldhopper.

I think that the ardent that started this whole thing, and the one talked about in WoR, are both Nazh.

I like this, it's what I was thinking.

However, to play Odium's Advocate here, it's possible that the word soil exists in a metaphorical or symbolic context. As Argel seems to be implying.  This would make sense based on what Tukks said as well. 

Like, the average Vorin might not know what soil is, but they know it's a word that means to dirty something, or it is a synonym for land. 

[The One Who Connects]

4 hours ago, Savanorn said:

However, to play Odium's Advocate here, it's possible that the word soil exists in a metaphorical or symbolic context.

Well, according to one of Shallan's inner thoughts (that'll take me ages to find ) she mentioned that the origin of bathing to keep away the rotspren was "Wisdom of the Heralds." Perhaps therein also lies the origin of soil being related to dirty.

[Argent]

8 hours ago, Sand Master said:

I think that the ardent that started this whole thing, and the one talked about in WoR, are both Nazh.

For some reason I immediately discarded Nazh as a possibility for the soil-aware ardent. No idea why, as it would make the most sense. Somebody could look into whether their descriptions match.

[ParadoxicalZen]

I 

8 minutes ago, Argent said:

For some reason I immediately discarded Nazh as a possibility for the soil-aware ardent. No idea why, as it would make the most sense. Somebody could look into whether their descriptions match.

I disregard him purely due to what we've seen of him and Khriss; reclusive, subtle (in a sense), non-active/direct roles and he usually let's Khriss do all the main talking. Granted, he is scholarly (after a fashion) but I don't see him as the political type; more the blend in, hide in plain sight kind. He could have simplky asked to draw Bridge 4's glyphs but heyho

[theuntaintedchild]

I love all of you. I remember thinking at the Dragoncon panel, "I'm halfway through Way of Kings for the second time. Am I going to have to go back and start it over looking for curious words?" Thank you people with easily searchable texts and the skills to use them (Argent) and people with grand skills in perception (Sand Master). You have freed up a few days worth of reading that I spend on something else. I've heard Jim Butcher is good and I've always wanted to read Wheel of Time and my sister has been trying to get me to read Name of the Wind for nearly as long as I've been trying to get her to read Sanderson. 

[theuntaintedchild]

Okay so this got me thinking about all of the things that Roshar doesn't have coins, soil (except in Shinovar), and then I thought "any animal that's not a crab monster". So what about the horses. I'm calling it right now. Every horse on Roshar is a Kandra. 

 

[Spoolofwhool]

40 minutes ago, theuntaintedchild said:

Okay so this got me thinking about all of the things that Roshar doesn't have coins, soil (except in Shinovar), and then I thought "any animal that's not a crab monster". So what about the horses. I'm calling it right now. Every horse on Roshar is a Kandra. 

 

Shinovar has chickens and doves. The main thing about shell creatures is that they are adapted to survive in highstorms, like the plants. Once again, we can see in Shinovar that there are more earthlike creatures as they do not have to have evolved to survive highstorms. Horses probably originated there and were spread across Roshar by the other kingdoms. I don't see any reason why they would have to be kandra, not to mention that if every single horse were a kandra, chances are someone would've figured it out ages ago. 

You would also need some reasonable explanation as to why a bunch of kandra decided to go to Roshar and be horses, instead of people, once you've gone over why they've gone to Roshar in the first place.

 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Argel]

7 hours ago, AnanasSpren said:

I disregard [Nazh] purely due to what we've seen of him and Khriss; reclusive, subtle (in a sense), non-active/direct roles and he usually let's Khriss do all the main talking. Granted, he is scholarly (after a fashion) but I don't see him as the political type; more the blend in, hide in plain sight kind. He could have simplky asked to draw Bridge 4's glyphs but heyho

Nazh does most of the grunt/dirty work though, so Nazh will be much more likely to be seen by others than Khriss. Though she shows up as well:

Misborn BoM Spoilers:

Spoiler

Such as asking Wax questions at a party.

 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Argel
clarity

[Sand Master]

I did a little bit of searching, and it turns out that the ardent we see drawing bridgemen in WoR has already been confirmed to be Nazh. Unfortunately I don't know how to link to the exact question on the page, but the WoB on it is here, number 58. That just leaves the question of whether or not the ardent in WoK is the same ardent. Personally I think it is likely, not only because he uses the word soil, but also because of the strange things he says to Dalinar. I don't think that some random ardent would say something like that to Dalinar and never have it be relevant.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Sand Master

[Yata]

There are a couple of Nazh's descriptions among the books...We may try to confront these with the Ardent

[Sand Master]

Just now, Yata said:

There are a couple of Nazh's descriptions among the books...We may try to confront these with the Ardent

I had considered doing this before posting about him in WoR, but couldn't think of where to find a list of the ways he's been described. The Coppermind page on him doesn't have any physical descriptions of him, and I didn't know where else to look.

[The One Who Connects]

8 minutes ago, Sand Master said:

Unfortunately I don't know how to link to the exact question on the page, but the WoB on it is here, number 58.

go to the url and add # and the number/heading you want to go to.
ttp://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1048#58

8 minutes ago, Sand Master said:

I don't think that some random ardent would say something like that to Dalinar and never have it be relevant.

I agree with this sentiment, but just don't feel like that's Nazh's thing. Regardless, there is definitely something up with that Ardent

Edited September 20, 2016 by The One Who Connects
Link wouldn't remove