Long Game 26: Cognitive Dissonance

[Alvron]

Reminder: Do not talk about anything Game related in Discord or other out of game mechanics!

[STINK]

 

Alright so obvious lil’ preface to what I’m gonna say but this post was typed up before the first cycle even started, and Imma just post it whenever I can seeing as rollover is like early am for me.

So, what does Odin like to do. Well, I think really the biggest priority for him is telling everyone his role because I just can’t help but get the good roles for doing nothing apparently. I mean really, a win condition of being a tourist and going around to all the different worlds? Another win condition of sacrificing myself to save someone? Oh but wait, what could the third win condition of mine be? Well it’s not a doc, that’s for sure

But on to the meat of the game, that being that well people are gonna go crazy trying to do win con stuff for I reckon the first few cycles, so if you peeps could let me just worldhop and stuff, then someone try to kill someone that I gotta save, then I’ll be over nice and quickly.

Thats about it really, haven’t really got much to say about my plan to kill myself.

-----

Now i've read some posts, and the good thing is I have to go so I can't comment on it

[Darkness Ascendant]

Hello, my creations!! How are you all? I've always dreamt of meeting the beings which I write of. Don't worry everyone, you can all tell me who you all really are, of course I know already, but still, i may be wrong, Your secrets are always safe with me 

 

[Magestar]

Hey guys.  I'm going to be completely honest;  I have no idea what's going on.   I don't personally think that Aman's idea is perfect;  it definitely has flaws.  It could work, theoretically, but it feels to much like a situation where you could nuke select groups of people really easily.  

That's about all I have to say at this time of day.  I'll get back to you when I fully wake up.  

[Straw]

What if everyone listed the people their role message mentioned?

[STINK]

4 minutes ago, Straw said:

What if everyone listed the people their role message mentioned?

That's a horrible idea. Also, friendly reminder to everyone in this game that Straw sells info to other people. Just in case you have a PM with him.

[Amanuensis]

7 minutes ago, Straw said:

What if everyone listed the people their role message mentioned?

It would essentially be the same thing as claiming a world publicly and make it very easy to confirm that person's identity. I don't think the God Beyond (GM) would appreciate that at this point in time. However, I think it is something we should seriously consider in a few later cycles, depending on what occurs.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Amanuensis
Added / edited text italicized and stroked through

[little wilson]

I'm on mobile and at a convention until Sunday morning (mountain time), so don't expect much from me until then.

I also disagree with Aman/Victor's plan, but others have already broached my qualms with it: people who cannot go to their home world, people who can go to their home world but cannot access that world's primary investiture, and independents who may or may not be able to travel to their home world but have no incentive to help the village regardless.

I'd also like to comment that Rayse may have followers that are not obvious. After all, Nyali did say that the powers and abilities of a role may not match canon. For all we know, Eshonai could be good and Vasher could be evil, for the purposes of this game (though that specific example is unlikely the case since it's highly unlikely that Eshonai is anything other than working with/for Rayse).

We also don't know how many open or hidden factions are in the game. Rayse may well not be the only evil faction. LG 24, anyone?

[Magestar]

9 minutes ago, little wilson said:

We also don't know how many open or hidden factions are in the game. Rayse may well not be the only evil faction. LG 24, anyone?

I hope not.  Please no.  I hated LG24.  There were just way too many Elims.

Please, not again.

Although I would not be surprised if their is at least one 'elim' type character from each world.  It would actually make sense.

-sigh-

1 hour ago, Straw said:

What if everyone listed the people their role message mentioned?

What even is this idea.  I don't even know.  This makes no sense.

[Wonko the Sane]

26 minutes ago, Magestar said:

What even is this idea.  I don't even know.  This makes no sense.

Seconded. Straw is experienced enough to know better than to say 'why don't we all just roleclaim'. Straw, can you elaborate on why you think this would be a good idea?

[Clanky]

50 minutes ago, Wonko the Sane said:

Seconded. Straw is experienced enough to know better than to say 'why don't we all just roleclaim'. Straw, can you elaborate on why you think this would be a good idea?

I think he means more along the lines of telling who your goals/specials mention by name other than yourself. Just a way to confirm what players are in the game without actually role-claiming. I don't agree with the idea but it is a bit more logical than just role-claiming if he means what I think. 

[Wonko the Sane]

Just now, Clanky said:

I think he means more along the lines of telling who your goals/specials mention by name other than yourself. Just a way to confirm what players are in the game without actually role-claiming. I don't agree with the idea but it is a bit more logical than just role-claiming if he means what I think. 

But it may as well be a role-claim. I cannot think of a single other character whose sheet would mention the same names as mine. If I complied with this plan, it would be immediately obvious who I am.

[Clanky]

1 minute ago, Wonko the Sane said:

But it may as well be a role-claim. I cannot think of a single other character whose sheet would mention the same names as mine. If I complied with this plan, it would be immediately obvious who I am.

Ok I can understand that. I'm not advocating this plan. I don't like it. Just saying that it wouldn't be as simple as a role-claim for everybody.

[Wonko the Sane]

Just now, Clanky said:

Ok I can understand that. I'm not advocating this plan. I don't like it. Just saying that it wouldn't be as simple as a role-claim for everybody.

Gotcha. I'm probably letting my own sheet blind me. Still, I think the clues revealed for even the most isolated character would be far too risky. So, Straw, I'm not suspicious of you, but I still don't think it would be a good idea.

[Elithanathile]

So first cycle, don't give out names. Gotcha. What about asking after specific people? If I need to find Kaladin for a totally-not-assassination quest, could I ask other people if they've seen him? (Through spying actions or something.)

And with the whole "Go to home planet" thing, some people might, if they get bonuses for being there, but if they have somewhere else to be, they'll probably head there instead. So I think it's a lot more likely that people are just going to do what benefits them. If they go to their HP, (Home Planet) then they'll get a bonus, if they fly around picking up money or items, then they get more money/items, or if their an independent, and have no HP, then they'll try and accomplish whatever goals they have. So I don't really see anyone following it exactly. They're more likely to just do whatever floats their cosmere-y boat.

It is a nice idea though, and it's a good thing it was brought up.
 

[Wonko the Sane]

4 minutes ago, Bridge Boy said:

So first cycle, don't give out names. Gotcha. What about asking after specific people? If I need to find Kaladin for a totally-not-assassination quest, could I ask other people if they've seen him? (Through spying actions or something.)

Based on what's present on the Common Powers list, I would guess that it is very difficult to directly learn a player's role in this game. The only ability I saw that can do it is Feruchemical tin, and even then, there's only a 1-in-6 chance. It's possible to infer someone's identity from their actions, items, and such, but that's hardly foolproof. It's gonna take a while before anybody figures out the role of anybody, private communications excluded.

[Elithanathile]

Well, if you've got a character who's no threat to anybody else, and there's no reason to be targeted by anyone else, then they might reveal their role. I guess the problem is that with all the different roles, we don't know that nobodies going to target them.

[Paranoid King]

11 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

And thus I propose that, effective immediately, we agree to Worldhop back to the place we originated from.

Sure, we could do that. I'm gonna hazard a wild guess and say that most people get a benefit from their home planet anyways. (Such as having glass spheres to charge on  Roshar)

But as for the part of the plan about separating [evils] from normals, I'm not sure what the point is. This isn't a standard elimination game, [evils] are the ones that can be killed by nightblood. So [evils] in this game seem to be easier to kill than normals, rather than harder. [Evils] don't have a doc to conspire in, and probably don't have a group kill. Therefore, [evils] are not eliminators.

In addition, the "follow and report" action doesn't seem to be as useful as you make it out to be. What if someone on Nalthis is a drab? What if they don't have any items with no investiture? What if they just report that their target used awakening?

However, If you are in a faction, such as Kelsier's gang, and your goal is to kill the Lord Ruler, knowing that the Lord Ruler is from Scadrial is quite helpful. You just kill everyone on Scadrial who isn't in your gang. Therefore, worldhopping back to original planets is helpful for factions who want to kill a specific person, but not helpful for people who want to avoid being killed.

So if you want a bonus from your planet, or if you want to kill a specific person, by all means go to your home planet. But if you want to avoid being targeted for no reason other than being in the wrong place, or if you want your faction to gain information from other planets, spread out.

[Wonko the Sane]

16 minutes ago, Paranoid King said:

But as for the part of the plan about separating [evils] from normals, I'm not sure what the point is. This isn't a standard elimination game, [evils] are the ones that can be killed by nightblood. So [evils] in this game seem to be easier to kill than normals, rather than harder. [Evils] don't have a doc to conspire in, and probably don't have a group kill. Therefore, [evils] are not eliminators.

 

Quote

Rayse and his accomplices are among you, but rules could bind them in situations such as these as long as an agreement is reached.

This implies to me that there is at least one Eliminator faction, spearheaded by Rayse.

Also, just because the game defines Evil by what Nightblood would do to you, doesn't mean it isn't using it in other ways. Just look at Vasher's sample character -- he explicitly needs to kill Evil characters, or protect non-Evil characters.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Wonko the Sane
Grammar.

[Clanky]

7 minutes ago, Paranoid King said:

But as for the part of the plan about separating [evils] from normals, I'm not sure what the point is. This isn't a standard elimination game, [evils] are the ones that can be killed by nightblood. So [evils] in this game seem to be easier to kill than normals, rather than harder. [Evils] don't have a doc to conspire in, and probably don't have a group kill. Therefore, [evils] are not eliminators.

From the rules:

"Open Factions also have a Doc or PM"  

"Factions may have shared Faction abilities that may be used once per cycle by one person, or they may have Passive Specials granted to everyone in the faction. While these may be faction kills, they may also be other abilities. These abilities will almost always relate directly to the faction's Faction Goal."

 

So yes the evils can have a doc and also likely have some sort of group powers even if it isn't a kill. The main problem with targeting {evils} or  any faction at this point in the game is that it is likely that some factions have the goal of "Destroy faction x". As soon as a faction goal like that is met the game ends regardless of anybody having completed their other objectives.

[Paranoid King]

8 minutes ago, Clanky said:

So yes the evils can have a doc and also likely have some sort of group powers even if it isn't a kill.

What I meant by "The [evil] faction doesn't have a doc," is that I don't think all [evil] characters are in the same doc. I doubt that The Lord Ruler is in the same faction as Odium.

8 minutes ago, Wonko the Sane said:

Also, just because the game defines Evil by what Nightblood would do to you, doesn't mean it isn't using it in other ways. Just look at Vasher's sample character -- he explicitly needs to kill Evil characters, or protect non-Evil characters.

Exactly. [Evil] doesn't mean eliminator, it's just a keyword.

 

By the way, my normal SE policy is to always vote on the first day turn, because it gives info about who the eliminators are. I might not do that this turn, because roles aren't revealed on death. In addition, there are so many different goals, I don't think I could catch anyone out by their lynch patterns.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Paranoid King

[Clanky]

Just now, Paranoid King said:

What I meant by "The [evil] faction doesn't have a doc," is that I don't think all [evil] characters are in the same doc. I doubt that The Lord Ruler is in the same faction as Odium.

Kk I get what you mean now. I thought you meant there are no docs at all for someone marked evil. 

There is also nothing saying that everybody within a faction has to be [evil] or vice-versa. Since within a faction you can still have goals that pitch you against your own faction I think it is likely that we have mixed factions where some but not all are [evil].

[livinglegend]

At first I agreed with Victor. I am fond of my home planet and wouldn't mind staying there; however, I don't think people will place their homes over their goals. Despite our varied abilities, I think our best guess is to watch those "fleeing the scene" as it were.

That's not to say anyone who worldhops is evil, but those who leave a planet where someone died should be a priority for those who can spy.

Edited for autocorrect.

Edited September 15, 2016 by livinglegend

[Elithanathile]

I think that's more likely to hit innocents though. You either have someone who wanted to go somewhere else and did, or the one person on the planet who killed someone, and then randomly left afterwards without reason. the other people are much more likely to get targeted by that then the killer.

[Mark IV]

Say, wasn't there a line in the rules that said that each person had a home planet though? I'm pretty sure I'd read that in the first spoiler box. I'm too lazy to quote it right now though. Just thought I'd point it out.