Nyali

Long Game 26: Cognitive Dissonance

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Hmmm, well that's probably the best that I'll get. Deal. Odium seems to have to honour oaths so I should be safe(ish).

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And the Deal is made. You now have Preservation, and I have Nightblood. Time to lock it away somewhere where it can't be found.

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Huh. I knew doctor had the spike. Bugsy gave it to him in Cycle 5, but I didn't think Doctor would ever bring it to use it on himself, he said he needed it because he needed unique items. @Doctor12 was this your plan from C5, or just some last-minute stunt? But anyway, I really enjoyed the game, GMs. And even if I didn't accomplish all of my goals (or even one XD), at least my faction won. And I didn't die, so there's that. :P 

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@I_am_a_Stick It was a last minute stunt, brought to you courtesy of Khriss and Nazh XD. The two of us had been working steadily and silently towards our goals throughout the whole game, and we did not take kindly to the Children ending the game on us like that XD.  So yeah, the two of us decided to kiss our faction goal goodbye and go out with a Bang. I spiked myself, and Hael went berserk on Harmony. 

We certainly did, didn't we? I'm laughing  at how prominently my actions affected the whole game, and Hael is very proud of his fireballs. :D

 

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5 hours ago, I_am_a_Stick said:

Huh. I knew doctor had the spike. Bugsy gave it to him in Cycle 5, but I didn't think Doctor would ever bring it to use it on himself, he said he needed it because he needed unique items. @Doctor12 was this your plan from C5, or just some last-minute stunt? But anyway, I really enjoyed the game, GMs. And even if I didn't accomplish all of my goals (or even one XD), at least my faction won. And I didn't die, so there's that. :P 

He did need the items, if you were wondering. That wasn't a lie. Like he said, it was only used for an explosive ending. Also, no faction won (Independent doesn't count as a faction).

And yes, very fond of my Haelfire (you can take your pick on if that's referencing balefire or hellfire).

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1 hour ago, Haelbarde said:

 Also, no faction won (Independent doesn't count as a faction).

Yeah, I know. But I still feel satisfied :D 

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Hael spent {24} out of the {24} he had to burn Harmony to the ground. He could have mixed a coinshot in there to reduce the cost to {20}, but he wanted pure fire, so, yeah. If Day 10 happened, Hael would have been at exactly {0} and unable to complete or even work toward his faction goal, which required his faction to spend {4}, then {6}, then {8}, then {10}, then {12}.

Specifically, the faction goal was the untie the Cognitive Knot, learning how it was done via reverse engineering and vastly furthering their knowledge of Investiture. To do this, they needed to have Mastery of all five worlds, and then go to each world and use their Faction Special, which cost more and more each time it was used. They achieved the Mastery of all worlds part, but they hadn't had a chance to start untying the knot yet when Ecth died.

They were basically the timer on the game. The faction goal that didn't involve any other players and could be achieved without anyone knowing (though people would have started to get informed when they started untying the knot). If the game went to Turn 11, they would have won.

 

 

EDIT: On an unrelated note, Lopen - you did NOT succeed in getting the most items out of everyone. You got close! But Araris had 15, and you ended with... 13, I think.

Edited by Nyali
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Night 9 was going to be the first two unties. Next cycle, Doc and I would have untied two other worlds, and finished publishing (one of my goals was to have my faction publish on every planet, and we only had two done). Then I'd have jumped somewhere else to untie the last planet. The untie actually wasn't going to be as expensive as you might expect. Publishing gives {3} to anyone on the planet, and to anyone on other planets who could use the primary investiture. But I had an ability that meant as soon as we gained mastery on a planet (a requirement to publish), I could start using its primary investiture, and so when anyone else, including but especially doc, published, I'd get investiture. By dividing up the unties between us, and taking into account that I started with {15} and doc with {9}, we actually only needed {11} and {7} between us to start untying stuff (assuming we left our five publishes till we started untying). The fact that other people published, and we found ourselves delayed by not having people to interview, we ended up collecting way more investiture than we needed. In the end, time was our enemy, but we could have feasibly been able to pull off our win, had we done a better job of organising interviews and stuff - we wasted ~3 cycled over the game, and ended up needed 3 more cycles to win.

So this game may have been broken/unbalanced, but I think our goal was fine, although had there been more lynches and night kills, maybe that would have changed. On the one hand, more kills would mean a higher chance of Doc or I dying, and as soon as either of us died, the amount of time required would have doubled (more if it was me, as it was easier for me to gain investiture, plus my death would have prevented Doc from completing one of his goals), plus it would potentially make it harder to gain mastery of planets if the relevant people died. But on the other hand, it may have given us more time too.

But anyway, thanks Nyali and El for the game, twas good fun! And thanks to you doc, for putting up with me for a month. Now to go back on hiatus for a month till exams are done. After that, I should be back and might run some games myself, just as I incorporate the madness of the Old ones into game rules...

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2 minutes ago, Haelbarde said:

plus my death would have prevented Doc from completing one of his goals

This isn't actually true. His goal was for you to survive and/or for you to complete your non-faction goals. So, he could still win if you died, as long as he published once on every world and interviewed the right six people. It would just be really hard without you.

If I were to run this game again, I would change your goal to be "someone must publish at least once on each world" so other people publishing works toward your goal, and I would have removed the requirement for you to get mastery of every world before you start untying.

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The other publishes would have helped. I still would have waited till we had mastery of all of the planets though.

Doc, what were your action changes that changed things twice? I assume first was the decision to spike yourself, stopping the CoA win. What was the other? Were you going to kill Clanky or something?
Oh and while I think about it, if anyone had been on discord in the music channel about half an hour after the night 9 cycle was posted, and saw me queue "I see fire", that was because I had just put in my orders then.

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Spec doc link, since we forgot it: here

And yes, Doc was going to kill Clanky. The only person who he could've killed to make the game not end. One change was when he put in that order, and the other when he changed it to Sart. 

And I do remember seeing that, actually. :P 

Thanks to Nyali for such a great game! She did all the work. So everyone knows. I did very little to help, other than a very few writeups and occasionally sending out PMs. She's the one who wrote all the roles and such, though. And it was a fantastic game, despite any bumps. See you all in the next one! 

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Killing Clanky prevented both Wilson and Mint from being able to win, by the way. Both needed Clanky to be alive. Clanky himself did NOT need to survive to win, by the way. He just needed Lopen dead.

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I'm not sure if this is entirely relevant Joe, but I ascended to Preservation in LG 19, so I think I am more worthy of its shard than somebody who was just given Preservation. :D

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You ascended to preservation via murder and spiking. Neither of which are very preservative. And there are multiple copies of most of the shards at this point.

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First, I want to thank Nyali and El for such a great game. I've already mentioned this to Nyali privately, but I think the game has some amazing potential, despite having breaks. Games this massive are going to have breaks somewhere the first time they're run. I think all of the different win cons for every person is a great idea, and it worked well. It made for a fun game.

Yes, I had fun. It's true that for half a turn there that I wasn't having fun. That shifted once I got away from the bulk of the Children and around other independents, with all of us working together to help each other towards our goals. That made the game fun, because that's essentially what I'd envisioned this game would be, particularly after learning my role/alignment. I literally could not have won the game without Clanky and Mint, so thank you both so much, and I'm really sorry that neither of you won as well, especially with Mint being so close. I was hoping that Assist for the fourth action would help you out, and I'm sad that it didn't in the end. :(

I'd like apologize to Nyali. I should've phrased those comments about the game better, because my intent was not to bring the GM down or make you want to stop running the game--I was genuinely interested in seeing how it played it out. My intent was to cast light on the difference between a game going so well for a person because they're doing a good job and a game going so well for a person because the breaks are in their favor. And that didn't come across as well as it should've. So I owe you a massive apology. Thank you for not calling it.

And this brings me to my last comment. I will be taking a prolonged break from playing SE. I've been stressed about a number of RL things for over a year (will be a year and a half in about two months), and the effects of that prolonged stress are having a serious impact on my patience, which was made evident to me in the course of this game. While I don't regret much of what I said this game, I do regret how I said a fair bit of it. I do genuinely believe that competition at the cost of fun is damaging to the games and that everyone should be cognizant of the other players in the game, regardless of your own personal alignment or theirs. We're not Town of Salem, Mafia Universe, or any number of other mafia forums. What sets us apart is that the 17th Shard members genuinely care about the other members of the forum, and I think that should be reflected in our mafia games. Pure competition doesn't allow for that. But I didn't make that point well during the game, because I was being too reactive to various things (the marionette comment, being silenced for 96 hours, being called a liar for speaking truth, etc). The games are too competitive right now and therefore add an unnecessary amount of stress that pushes me over the edge. Thus, it's best if I'm sidelined until the RL stuff is resolved.

Also, one more thing I want to note: when it comes to manipulating people in the games, you should probably leave it to the player rather than the person. There's a difference between manipulating someone because you're evil and you're trying to get them to do something that helps you and your team, and manipulating someone in a way that you know will make them upset--and that's your goal: to direct that fury at an enemy. If you want to manipulate me as a player in a game, go for it, but manipulating me as a person is more than a little disrespectful. That behavior in anything outside of a game is called flaming, and there's a reason it tends to make things heated. Because that's its purpose. Let's keep it out of the games, please.

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3 minutes ago, little wilson said:

I'd like apologize to Nyali. I should've phrased those comments about the game better, because my intent was not to bring the GM down or make you want to stop running the game--I was genuinely interested in seeing how it played it out. My intent was to cast light on the difference between a game going so well for a person because they're doing a good job and a game going so well for a person because the breaks are in their favor. And that didn't come across as well as it should've. So I owe you a massive apology. Thank you for not calling it.

Thank you for posting this. I was really bummed out by what you had said, as I'm guessing you read in the dead doc. Mostly because you were right - there were definitely mechanics I hadn't thought through (some of which I started listing in the dead doc as a reminder to myself to not make those in the future). Having not run a game like this before, balancing was difficult and I don't think I did a great job of it. That said, I do agree that the game was enjoyable for most players, and that's what really matters in the end.

 

Oh, and one other note, Wilson, which I don't think ever came up - it was actually one of Mark's goals to attack evil people. He didn't even need to kill them, just attack them. So, he wasn't attacking you randomly - he was actually pursuing one of his goals. Sart was being random, though you were one of the only two players in the game he had the power to attack, since Hoid can only hurt cognitive beings. (Mark's other goal, by the way, was "Harmony must lose." He succeeded at that one!)

 

For those who are interested, things I'll never do again if I ever run something like this include:

  1. Passive defenses. These were the WORST to keep track of, and failing to keep track of them leads to really bad GM errors and stuff like Luckat's death.
  2. Players with the ability to survive multiple kills. LL, Wilson, and Aman could survive a crazy number of kill attempts, and PK had immunity to nearly every kill in the game except Daa and Shardblades, which the eliminators did not have access to, Kandra Poison which was one use, and the lynch which is not a tool of the eliminators generally. That was just a poor decision on my end.
  3. Defense over Offense methodology. Sure, having defenses be cheap and offenses be expensive makes sense from a certain standpoint, but it also makes nothing happen fairly often. Nothing is far less exciting than something. Five people dying at once can be bad for your game, but it's dynamic and leads to fun writeups. No one dying twice in a row is bad for your game, bad for keeping people's interest, and leads to boring writeups.
  4. Silencing mechanics. These are bad. The idea I had was that it was like dying, only the player could rejoin the game after a number of turns. But, that's worse than dying honestly in many ways, as Wilson pointed out. Don't go soft with temporary death, just go for death outright.
  5. Weapons that can only hurt eliminators. I don't know what I was thinking when I put Nightblood into the game. Sure, it was fine, because Mint didn't use him until all the eliminators were basically figured out. But Nightblood was stupidly broken as an eliminator detection tool. Next time, if I include Nightblood, he'll be one kill vs normal people and two kills vs eliminators. And limited to one use per turn! I meant to include that last bit, but forgot.
  6. Aura Sight. Gods, I hated Aura Sight. I almost dropped it from the game Night One when I realized I hadn't dealt with it yet. Mass PASSIVE detection... It was really annoying. About as annoying as the similar abilities Aman and Rae had to detect Spiked people, which I also had a lot of trouble dealing with.
  7. Tin. Tin took me 30-45 minutes to process every time someone used it, and once two people used it at the very end of the night within the last hour before rollover. Mass detection is bad, plain and simple. It should at least have cost more!
  8. Giving people two or more kill defenses. This ties back to a previous point - it was just a bad idea. Aman could use Allomancy and Feruchemy, both of which had a protection from kill ability, in addition to being able to survive two kills just from being a Vessel. While he did die in the end, he only died because he was killed four times in one turn. That's just ridiculous.
  9. Convertible eliminators. Even with protections built in, it turned out to be a really bad idea. Never again will I try that!
  10. Players whose entire game rested on one specific other player being active. There was this thing where Gaotona needed Shai who needed Hoid, and Hoid was inactive leading Shai to go inactive leading Gaotona to go inactive because there was nothing they could do to achieve their goals without the others in the game.

Anyway, those are what I felt were my biggest game design mistakes. Ah well. Live and learn!

 

And for those interested, Night 1 rollover had 86 actions taken and took me seven hours to handle. After that, I got the hang of it and was able to process turns faster. But that first night was pretty hellish! For complex games, be kind to the GMs by getting your actions in early where possible - it really, really helps. Thank you to those who did!

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Wow. I can't believe I completely forgot about turnover. <_<

Good game everyone.

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In a small village on the planet of Scadrial, a figure made its way through the sleeping village. It glided silently through empty streets, like the wraith of long-dead inhabitants. A cloud passed over the moon, casting the entire village in shadow, but the figure moved on as if it didn’t notice the lack of light.

Finally, the figure came to a rest in front of an inn, The Broken Spear, named after the object that had brought a god down. A fitting name.

The figure opened the door and walked in. A few patrons still sat at the bar, singing some off-key tune, or slurring out nonsense at each other. They were probably too drunk to notice the figure, but just in case, it kept its hood wrapped tightly around its face. It climbed up the stairs, and kept walking until it reached a door marked 204.

The figure opened the door and walked into the room. It couldn’t see anything with the lack of light, so it increased the number of rods in its eyes until it could see a stain on the wooden floor, with some bones piled on top -- the only remains of Paalm the kandra.

The figure knelt down and removed its hood. Paalm had tried to be free, and this was the price she had payed.

“I’m sorry I didn’t come earlier,” the figure said. “I shouldn’t have been so angry that you stole some of my bones. I should have been happier that at least one of us escaped, if only for a while.”

The figure reached forwards and picked up a spike. It glinted silver, with red specks flashing like fire as the figure turned it in the light. Paalm had used it to break free of Harmony, only to be enslaved by another master.

But some masters were kinder than others. The figure looked down at its hands, then back at the spike. Did it dare to follow Paalm’s path, and hopefully meet a less violent end?

No. Not immediately. The situation wasn’t desperate enough (yet). Besides, the new master might be worse than the figure’s current one. After all, Paalm’s new master had been the one to kill her. The figure pocketed the spike, and then left the room to continue carrying out its most recently assigned duty. It regretted not having more time to pay its final respects, but its master would be displeased if it was late.

The figure fingered the spike in its pocket and smiled grimly. Now, at least, it had another choice.

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Well, it's long past time we closed this amazing game.  Many, many thanks to Nyali for creating and running it and to Elbereth for helping out.  All the individual roles looked amazing and the detail was just insane. :o  I hope we see more games like this in the future for I know I want to play one myself.

If anyone would like to try their hand at running a game, please get a hold of 
GammaWilson, Metacognition or myself. Not only will we get you added to the list, but we'd also be more than willing to help out in any way we can.

You can also ask questions and get some hints and feedback from everyone over here in our Art of Game Creation thread as well. With all the games that we've run so far, we have plenty of experienced GMs that can help you refine any game you're thinking about!

Thanks again to everyone that played and we look forward to killing seeing you in future games!

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