9-5-16_Hobbit_Of the Mountain Stream, Chapter 1 [off page V] - 3550 words

[Hobbit]

Hello again!

Everyone's suggestions last time were super helpful.  I'm excited to hear what you think of chapter 1!  This chapter occurs roughly six months prior to the events in the prologue.

I forgot to mention last time that I'm writing this with a YA audience in mind.  Though I hope it will still be interesting to all of us "old and mature" people as well.

Again, any and all comments are great.  I'll just give one caveat:  As we go forward, you will continue to find that I have quite the love of tropes.  (Example A:  My main character is a shepherd.  Please don't stone me.)  I do realize that a super tropey story is unlikely to get published, so if you hate these tropes and they distract from the story, please go ahead and say so, since I can certainly change them if I groom this story for publication down the line.  But at this point in my development as a writer I'm trying to learn good story mechanics, and I'm not super focused on being original.  Not that those two things are mutually exclusive, but hey... one step at a time.  

Maybe I'll make some trope bingo cards to make things more interesting...

Again, thanks for reading!

[Coop]

Hey Hobbit, this opening chapter worked just fine for me, and I have only two suggestions for you. One is that I wasn't getting much of a visual on each of the characters as I read. Maybe a little more description would help, but also some mannerisms or tendencies to help me get a better sense of their individual personalities. The other thing is that I think you can heighten the interest/tension in the first half of the scene--the conversation about Selnest. It could have held my interest better. I think the overall concept is good--two guys approaching an Elder about somebody doing bad stuff--but I think you could key into the tension a little better. Maybe show the boys' growing frustration (and trying to contain anger) as Luros refuses to go along with what they want (maybe add some mystery as to why Luros is refusing them); maybe they're worried Selnest is going to show up at the hut at any moment; maybe approaching Luros is a little dangerous anyway because he is linked to Selnest in some way.

Nice work. I look forward to chapter 2.

[kais]

Overall - 

I was unable to make it past page six. My reasonings are below. I'd be interested in rereading this piece if some work was done on the layout of the domestic violence, infanticide, and gender ratios. I understand that you are trying to showcase how horrible magic use is by butting it up against what many of us consider to be the most horrible of crimes. How this was executed, however, minimized the actual acts, especially the beating, moreso than it brought the understanding of magic use to the front. It felt exploitive, to me, and I had to stop reading. It is an interesting premise, and I would be interested in reading more if the above issues were resolved.

 

As I go

- page one - the table description of 'huge' doesn't really give me any visual. Either be size specific or define it's size relative to other things

- wood nerd alert! Page one table stuff - what do you mean by the familiar grooves? Wood doesn't have grooves, so Imma need something specific here

- page two: we're back on this irregular table curve again. Is this a live edge you're trying to describe?

- page three: My spidey sense is tingling. “He beat his wife,” Telethas said.  “This offense is at least equal to his stealing.” Are you telling us something about the characters here, in how they value women? If so, solid. If not, reconsider this wording.

-  Why hadn’t Helia come forward sooner? - possibly because people's opinions of wife beating are that it is on par with stealing?

- page four - and we have dead children, too? Erm. Hrm. Having. Hard. Time. No. Female. Characters. Dead woman....fridge senses raising to yellow...

- page six. I'm sorry. I have to stop. I'm very uncomfortable with the gender dynamics and the very blasé use of domestic violence and infanticide in the context of this piece. In themselves they are certainly appropriate to use when telling a story, but the way the characters are reacting and the ease with which they move into magic dialogue, among several other things, really bothers me. I hope the comments I was able to provide to this point were helpful.

[Hobbit]

13 minutes ago, kaisa said:

I'm sorry. I have to stop. I'm very uncomfortable with the gender dynamics and the very blasé use of domestic violence and infanticide in the context of this piece. In themselves they are certainly appropriate to use when telling a story, but the way the characters are reacting and the ease with which they move into magic dialogue, among several other things, really bothers me. I hope the comments I was able to provide to this point were helpful.

Don't be sorry.  I was worried about this.  I thought I might be mishandling it, and it turns that I was right.  Your reads on the character's comments ("at least equal to stealing," "why hadn't she come forward," etc.) are correct, in the sense that I was going for some disturbing layers of the characters there.  But maybe I'm trying to put down too many layers here in the beginning before there's more context.  I'm here to learn, so I appreciate you pointing this out.  Feel free to PM me or just take over this thread if there's more you want to say about how I could do this better in this chapter, or about this topic in general.  Although I didn't mean to imply that Helia was dead (not sure if that's the 'dead woman' you're talking about), only that for the purposes of the Elder's discussion with the boys, he wanted them to assume that they would not be able to use her as a witness.

And I'll just go ahead and make it clear that I am really, really, really upset by abuse of any kind.  It's horrible and disturbing and wrong and awful, and I do not want to make light of it in anything I write.  My writing tends to be overly rosy about just about everything, which is especially bad in cases like this... so again, thanks for being honest.  I know it's not fun to have to call people out on these things all the time.

[kais]

I have read your previous submissions, so I have an idea what you are going for, I just had problems with the execution. The way it is presented is so harsh, so without context, that it turns what could be a great window into the world into something off-putting. I certainly don't think you need to cut it or anything of the sort, but easing into the scene, being more selective of words and reactions, could get the effect you want. I think what was also difficult for me is that we as readers don't currently have the 'identifiable' character. Scenes like this can work well if you have one character who tends to be more in line with reader sensibilities. Without said character, the scene feels disturbingly alien. With that character, you can gain empathy for the situation and other characters.

So I think maybe just some reworking of the scene and it should be alright.  If you would like I could take Track Changes to your submission and show you what I'm talking about in terms of easing in and character reactions. But only if you're interested. It's your piece, and in the end you should write it the way you want to.

[Hobbit]

2 hours ago, kaisa said:

If you would like I could take Track Changes to your submission and show you what I'm talking about in terms of easing in and character reactions.

I think that would actually be really helpful, if you wouldn't mind.  Thanks!

[kais]

1 hour ago, Hobbit said:

I think that would actually be really helpful, if you wouldn't mind.  Thanks!

Sent!

[AuthorityHellas16]

Hey Hobbit. I'm excited to read Chapter 1, and hopefully can get some of the answers to the questions I had with your prologue. I do like having questions hanging over from chapter to chapter; it keeps me interested. Problems arise when I pass the "confusion threshold" and give up. Hopefully you stay on the right side of that here

As I go:

• I can't remember who said it a while ago, but "pronouns are your friend." I'm getting a bit too much repetition of Aurem here, but that's just the grammar nazi in me. 
• I like your introduction of the Elder; it's well thought out and gives me a glimpse into his character.
• There are a lot of names here; be careful you don't confuse your reader with having to keep track of them all
• You've built up tension in this conversation well, but it's shattered by Aurem reminiscing about the table. I want to know more about this conflict between Aurem and the Elder and while the flashback is good in and of itself, I don't think it fits here
• "That's pretty bad." See: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AndThatsTerrible for why I have an issue with this. 
• I like how this chapter is flowing. More than the previous chapter, it moves and I'm finding it easier to read without getting bogged down.
• I'm not sure exactly how you'd do it, but I'd like a little more background on how all the different groups you've mentioned, the Garda, the Nomad slavers, fit and interlock with each other. I only have a vague outline and it's one that I've had to pull together for myself. Just a dash here or there would enrich my understanding of these groups and, by extension, the consequences of the conversation
• "The women are used much worse than Selnest has treated his wife." While I get what you're trying to do here (and accept that the Elder may be embellishing to make a point), I do think there are more artful ways to establish how horrible the Southern Lands are, many of which you've already done. It's just a personal preference, but I do get squeamish when this sort of thing is mentioned, especially when it's so off hand.
• Be careful with your dialogue. From the setting and most of the dialogue between Aurem, Telethas and the Elder, I'm getting the sense of an LoTR, Wheel of Time-esque world. With that in mind, make sure the vocabulary is consistent to retain that aura. It's fine if you want your characters to speak in modern lingo; I do it in my writing too. But it must remain consistent
• I like that Aurem's friends wanted to stay back for him; it gives me a sense of the bond between them. However, having Aurem immediately be approved for adulthood somewhat lessened the impact of that. If you're going to offer us sacrifice, follow through with it for maximum effect. 
• "He couldn't believe this." You've made it obvious that Aurem is shocked; no need to tell what you've already shown.
• "Aurem would discover just how wrong he was." TEASE. I don't know if you're familiar with the Writing Excuses podcast (if you're not, check it out; it's amazing!) but one of the major lessons I took away from one of the episodes was to avoid ending chapters on cliffhangers like this, where the source of tension is vague. The example in the podcast was something like: rather than opening a door and having the character gasp, actually show what's behind the door so that the reader can ruminate on the consequences of that cliffhanger. Now, I don't know what you're planning for Aurem this evening, but it would be something to consider. 

Overall, I didn't get the answers I was looking for; if anything it raised more questions than it answered. This is not a bad thing at all; quite the opposite. But if you're going for the in Medias Res plot structure, try and leave a trail of breadcrumbs throughout your main story to fill in the blanks. Look no further than the Uncharted video game series to see this done well. 

I'm not sure what your overarching plan is, but I've learned the hard way that writing a novel is not like having a TV show; you can't afford to have "filler" chapters. I have little doubt that this meeting is important for the overarching plot, but just make sure that it is. I have a hunch that Selnest is going to come back with a vengeance at Aurem's Crossing. If so, then brilliant! Everything is set up beautifully. But if not, maybe some change is in order. 

I'd also be wary of the characters you're creating. Again, it's early days and I'm not being dismissive of your work. I mentioned LoTR and the Wheel of Time before, and I'm getting a few vibes that are making me picture Frodo or Rand al'Thor et al in your cast of characters, i.e. a ragtag bunch of misfits from a simple, poor town who all (presumably) go on to do incredible things. This is a well-trodden path and while it's tried and true, always try and put your own unique spin on things. 

Sorry for the essay-long answer and I hope you get something out of it. I look forward to reading next time!

[Hobbit]

Thanks for everyone's really helpful feedback.  @kaisa, I got your PM and replied - it was amazingly helpful.

Other notes of thanks:

On 9/6/2016 at 5:29 AM, Ernei said:

the long paragraph on Aurem reminiscing about the hut

Seems to be a problem for lots of people.  Consider it gone.  I'll scatter its ashes in other places.

On 9/6/2016 at 5:29 AM, Ernei said:

all right, so you bought me with this line  If it was a book I from a library "just to try", I would be reading after this

Woo!  And @Ernei, your following comments about the next few paragraphs here were awesome.  Lots of great brainstorming and worldbuilding ensued.

On 9/6/2016 at 8:26 PM, Coop said:

One is that I wasn't getting much of a visual on each of the characters as I read. Maybe a little more description would help, but also some mannerisms or tendencies to help me get a better sense of their individual personalities. The other thing is that I think you can heighten the interest/tension in the first half of the scene--the conversation about Selnest.

Both great ideas.  I'll try to work something out.

@AuthorityHellas16, I'll just respond to a few of your many helpful comments:

1 hour ago, AuthorityHellas16 said:

Sorry for the essay-long answer and I hope you get something out of it.

Never be sorry about this.   It's all helpful, and besides, you know I'm writing everyone else essays.

1 hour ago, AuthorityHellas16 said:

I'd like a little more background on how all the different groups you've mentioned, the Garda, the Nomad slavers, fit and interlock with each other. I only have a vague outline and it's one that I've had to pull together for myself.

I pulled some of this out in an effort to slim the chapter down a bit, but I'll try adding more back in.  Thanks for helping me calibrate!

1 hour ago, AuthorityHellas16 said:

"Aurem would discover just how wrong he was." TEASE. I don't know if you're familiar with the Writing Excuses podcast (if you're not, check it out; it's amazing!) but one of the major lessons I took away from one of the episodes was to avoid ending chapters on cliffhangers like this, where the source of tension is vague.

Yes, this last line is giving me a lot of trouble.  I'm an avid WE listener, so I'm definitely familiar with that analogy from Brandon.  I'm actually not planning on showing the events that occur that evening - I'm planning on jumping a few days forward to Aurem having a discussion with his father about it.  I'm not sure if I should let the context of that discussion reveal that his parents said no, or if I need to establish that before Chapter 2 begins.  Maybe I can just make the last line more concrete, rather than sounding so mysterious.

1 hour ago, AuthorityHellas16 said:

I'd also be wary of the characters you're creating. Again, it's early days and I'm not being dismissive of your work. I mentioned LoTR and the Wheel of Time before, and I'm getting a few vibes that are making me picture Frodo or Rand al'Thor et al in your cast of characters, i.e. a ragtag bunch of misfits from a simple, poor town who all (presumably) go on to do incredible things. This is a well-trodden path and while it's tried and true, always try and put your own unique spin on things.

Yeah... I really like these kinds of stories.   But I'm definitely hoping to find a unique spin.  I actually tried to check out the WoT stories from the library again, to make sure I wasn't just marching down the same exact Act 1 path as Robert Jordan, but the library in this tiny town doesn't have them!!!  Anyway, I'm sure you will all hold me accountable.  I'm not as worried about things looking like Wot or LoTR later in the story, but I'm open to any and all suggestions on how to spin the first third to be more interesting.

1 hour ago, AuthorityHellas16 said:

Overall, I didn't get the answers I was looking for; if anything it raised more questions than it answered. This is not a bad thing at all; quite the opposite. But if you're going for the in Medias Res plot structure, try and leave a trail of breadcrumbs throughout your main story to fill in the blanks.

This is definitely something I need to improve in my story structure.  I'm glad it there haven't been too many unanswered questions yet, but I'm anticipating this will be a problem soon.  I'm 95% sure I'm going to cut the prologue at this point, so that will help with the question overload.  Would you (and anyone else) mind listing your current questions/expectations/promises I've made?  One thing I know I need help on is learning to identify these.

[Mandamon]

Starting with a meeting is not the most exciting beginning to a book.  I have to admit I skimmed through some of this, as there wasn't much to keep me reading.  Gender dynamics and violence aside, I just wasn't very pulled into the world.  The LoTR and WoT vibes were so strong I was already calling Kaltus "Mat" in my mind.

I think AH16 has the right of it with "you can't afford to have "filler" chapters."  This may have a place later on, but as a first chapter, it's not holding my attention.

The writing and grammar were fine, and I enjoyed your last submission with lots of action and a challenge for the character to overcome.  Here, Aurem and Telethas aren't really doing anything that progresses their characters.  They're complaining about a trial verdict.  If they were training to become lawyers, or were going to be elders very soon, then I
could understand it.  Right now it seems like they were bored with shepherding and decided to bug the elder for something to do.

The end of the chapter starts to get into more interesting territory.  What is the Crossing ceremony and why does Aurem get special treatment?   Why would his parents disapprove?  Why is magic outlawed?  I want to read more of this part, but not the first half, debating a ruling which really doesn't affect Aurem and Telethas one way or the other.

[rdpulfer]

- I like the subtle ways you characterize Aurem's relationship not just with the Elder but also Telethas, especially how "he talks first. He always talks first."

- I also the build of crimes . . . stealing, domestic abuse, endangering the lives of others...all to the cardinal crime . . . magic. It's a nice switch.

- What does a "don't listen to him" look . . . look like?

- I also like that all the characters are so young . . . but I wonder if this information should have been brought up earlier.

- Overall, it's interesting. I want definitely want to read more, but I also want something to pick up to grab my attention too. 

 

[Robinski]

Well, this is spectacularly late. I am sorry, but I was interested to read the continuation of your story, and I got these in the end! I hope there are some useful comments here.

MRK’s ABCD method, yaddah, yaddah, (A) = Awesome; (B) = Boring; (C) = Confusing; and (D) = Disbelief (-inducing), plus (G) Grammar/typo.

In summary, I had some issues.

(1) I'm not sure what the intention is, but from the start of the story I have no sympathy at all for two 'men' who come to the elder to try and get another man condemned. They don’t seem to have any authority for law enforcement, or any evidence. So they have not been at all competent in preparing for the interview, or considering the consequences.

(2) – There’s a lack of description of the characters, I feel, which means that I don’t feel any great reaction when Aurem’s friends make a sacrifice for him near the end of the chapter, apart from the fact that I am close to taking against Aurem because of (1), above. I don’t think that they have in any way earned the strong emotional reaction that you are seeking with the coming-to-manhood thing.

(3) – “That evening, Aurem would discover just how wrong he was.” – I felt sideswiped by this line, and put this comment up here because I think it’s the ultimate instance of telling, which I've mentioned in the detail below. If you delete this line, you allow the reader to work out that the second last line (Asking them was basically a formality - he knew what they would say.) might be begging the opposite to be true. I think that is much better than telling the reader what is going to happen, even if it is YA.

Overall, I was disappointed by this chapter after the prologue, which was so much darker in tone. I have a much stronger feeling for Elias than any of these individuals, and reading about them coming of age does not fill me with enthusiasm, I'm afraid.

I hope some of this helps, sorry not to be more positive, and very sorry for the delay.

Best, <R>

---------------------------------------------

(B) – There’s a lot of looking at people and people looking back at the start.

(G) – “Aurem thought he seemed slightly amused, but overall pleased.” – I am more and more conscious now of indirect phrasing. In this example, consider this suggested deletion. I think it makes the sentence more direct, but doesn’t lose any of the sense of what is happening. Imho, you don’t need to state that a chr is thinking something, it’s obvious.

(C) – At first, it seems very like Telethas is the elder, because we don’t know that anyone else is in the room at that point.

(B) – I don’t find the first two paragraphs all that interesting. I want something to grab my attention. Having said this, if I was reading this as a novel, I would just have finished the breathless prologue with all that fighting so, in reality, this scene sequel (in tone at least) actually might be a blessed relief!

“called the Garda on him” – Lol. All I can imagine at this point is Brendan Gleeson and Don Cheadle!! That’s a great movie. (The Guard) – Garda being the Irish police force.

(C) – I'm confused. Would the Garda send him south? Wasn't it the Garda that put him in North Peak?

(G) – “the Elder’s Circle” – This implies it’s a circle with one elder. If it is a circle of many elders, it should be “the Elders' Circle”

(A) – “He drew his hands along the table again, feeling the curve of the irregular edge. It felt good to sit here. How many times had he sat at this table?” – I like this, the feeling of community that it gives, and the impression that Aurem has some standing and respect.

(A) – “Aurem felt his face soften under the Elder’s praise” – I like the elder, he’s canny, clearly knows how to deal with people.

(D) – “That’s pretty bad” – This feels wishy-washy to me. ‘pretty bad’ doesn’t sound like it warrants the ‘ultimate punishment’  - btw, is that not death? Unclear.

(D) – “And it’s different from just stealing once. Or just doing it as a joke, though that’s definitely not good either.” – Again, this is weak. I have no sympathy for their position atm.

(C) – “But Telethas hadn’t even said what many people in the village suspected, now that they knew about Helia - that Selnest’s two infant children hadn’t died naturally, as everyone had assumed, but because Selnest had harmed them” – confusing, and also dead children drops out of the blue, which feels like a low blow. Why are we talking about stolen food when there is this HUGE unspoken issue that they’ve known about from the start? These two are accusing a man of murdering his children, but we’re talking about stolen food?! Not convinced.

(D) – “The cardinal offense. Attempting to perform magic” – Worse than killing two children?! I'm not convinced by this at all. Also, I think we could have got to this much quicker than four pages.

(B) – Start of Page 6 feels like an info dump, somewhat maid-and-butler.

(D) – “Now that everyone knew the truth” – but there’s no evidence about the children.

(C) – “Kaltus, of all of them, was the biggest troublemaker” – I feel there are quite a few statements like this in the chapter. These facts come out of nowhere and somehow seem to have no context. I think it’s because it’s telling, not showing, so it’s inherently less interesting. Also, because I know nothing about these people, I don’t really care whether they get what they want.

“He hadn’t realized until now that part of him had hoped they would refuse Kaltus” – I'm really not getting any sympathy at all for Aurem. I've seen no evidence of any positive traits. I suppose he showed some sense of loyalty to his father, but his desire to see Selnest punished seems purely to be for personal reasons.

“But, Elder…” He looked the Elder directly in the eyes. “I don’t want to cross this year.” – I would consider cutting a lot of these statements. Where else would be look when addressing the elder? I don’t think it needs to be stated all the time.

(D) – “His voice was wobbly. He couldn’t believe this” – I feel there must be a better word than ‘wobbly’, one that meant you could delete the second sentence. If you convey the emotion better through the description in the first sentence, you don’t need to tell the reader how to feel with the second sentence. At the risk of editorialising (sorry!), but to illustrate my point, I think ‘His voiced wavered.’ would do the job, and allow you to let the reader deduce the emotion, which is more satisfying.

(D) – “He turned away and wiped his nose on his sleeve” – not very manly.

(D) – “The Elder smiled at them all, his eyes shining like dark pools” – again, I'm not really feeling the depth of emotion, because I don’t really know these people. I'm not invested in them as characters yet.

(D) – “WHAT!” the boys all said at once” – I'm confused by the tone of the story. The prologue was completely different, so much darker, and I preferred that, to be honest.

(D) – “Won’t this set a precedent?” Barian asked” – I think this language is too refined and formal for these boys, it threw me out of the story.

[Hobbit]

No worries @Robinski for being late.  It's still helpful!  And I'll just also take a moment to thank @rdpulfer and @Mandamon for their comments as well.  I'm trying to re-write this chapter at the moment, so we'll see how many issues I manage to take care of.

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

Garda being the Irish police force.

Yeah... I studied abroad in Ireland so I know I'm kind of cheating with this name.  If I ever get this to a place where it's publishable, I'll probably have to change it.  But for now I like it!

Thanks again everyone!

[krystalynn03]

Hey Hobbit,

I'm struggling with this sub for the same reason I struggled with the prologue. I just can't get a quick enough grasp on the protag to feel really grounded. There's not enough suspense, nothing at risk yet, for me to really invest in, so I'm not really interest in 4 or 5 pages of a meeting to discuss legalities and politics. The content's just not framed right for a book beginning.

I'd like to have some reason, some something of Aurem to snag onto before getting into a sequence like this. His introduction as a character is all focused on some scumbag who isn't even present.

Tropes don't bother me. There's a reason tropes are tropes. However, I do need something as a reader to latch onto if I'm going to sign up for a ride through any novel. I do like your ability to go deep third person and hope you channel it better. Have you thought of doing a character study like @Robinski? It really ramped his style!

 

[Hobbit]

17 hours ago, krystalynn03 said:

Have you thought of doing a character study like @Robinski? It really ramped his style!

I'd love to do something like this!  @Robinski, what was your process?

[Robinski]

53 minutes ago, Hobbit said:

I'd love to do something like this!  @Robinski, what was your process?

My process? Err, well, when starting out on a novel, I will usually start with what I think is a cool, but not necessarily large or innovative idea. It might only be what I think is a good ending, or a cool dynamic for a central relationship. I'll usually outline the fffirst half and have an idea of the ending, although not necessarily a firm idea.

The character portraits come in about then. I will write a page or so of chr building material, usually including a mini-bio and perhaps a scene between two characters. Most novels I go into now (so the last three), I will have about 20 pages of notes which might include 3 to 5 character portraits, maybe some additional (shorter) character summaries.

For writing them, it all stems from one initial idea, usually of the dynamic between two people, with more detail coming in as I write. Taking Quirk for example, I wanted a character who had the opportunity to deliver some cool, funny dialogue. I often end of with quite straight-laced m/c's, so I was determined to break that pattern with Quirk. He needed a foil, someone to create friction, hence Moth, the foul-mouthed and unruly teenager. There is some deep background (spoiler) to add some depth and room for growth (I hope), and a twist to force and keep them together, those notions came along soon after.

In summary, my process is have the idea and write it down before I forget! Just write enough about the character, some dialogue for how they speak and and explain (to yourself) why they are the way they are - it won't go into the book, but it's the source for stuff that does go in.

There are good casts in WE Season 10 about character. You've maybe listened to them before, but I'd recommend going back over them, if it wasn't recently that you listened.