Amaram Saint or Sinner

[Chrono]

My feelings about Amaram are complex, as is the moral dilemma he's in.

 

I voted that he is okay, although I'd like to clarify. First of all, I really hate what he did to Kaladin and his men. In fact, I nearly cried when I read that section of the book. I wanted him dead, preferably by Kaladin's hand. But now, I'm mostly curious. Why does the "honorable" lighteyes decide to slaughter four men and send the man who is his savior into slavery? 

 

It again comes down to that basic phrase: Journey before Destination. Amaram is clearly setting his destination above the journey, as most lighteyes do. In his mind, he's trying to do the right thing. However, Amaram gets into some deep doo doo here, as he apparently decides that murder is the best option. He tries to rationalize it by saying "But I can use the Plate and Blade for the most good." And maybe he can. In fact, he probably has. That's the difficult part: Amaram may have saved more lives by taking the blade than giving it to Kaladin's men. 

 

However, does this justify slaughtering four men in cold blood? I don't think so. These are four men who have done nothing wrong, and Amaram knows it. He feels guilt, if only for a split second. It's also suggested that he had to be guided to this decision by Restares. Does this guilt and pressure acquit him? No. In the end, after he'd weighed the odds for hours, he decides that killing Kaladin's men is still the best option. No matter what guilt he feels about it, he still did it. That itself is unforgivable. 

 

However, I'm very much a "walk in someone's shoes" type of person. In the end, we'd have to see the dilemma from Amaram's own eyes to see whether he deserves mercy or not. But for now, I peg him as the Well-Intentioned Extremist.

 

EDIT: Wow, hello there, wall of text. Whoops.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Chrono

[el_warko]

At this time, I would like to paraphrase / rip off the Animals:

 

He's just a soul whose intentions are good. Oh Lord please don't let him be misunderstood.

 

Edit

 

Furthermore.  If he had killed Kaladin, none of us would be here discussing this right now.  He deserves a second chance for that at least.

 

End Edit

 

WRT Jasnah, I'm of the belief that Gavilar wanted to marry her off to Araman for political reasons, or just thought they were a good match, Araman was very keen (a little/lot in love with her) cause she is so cool and pretty and all.  And Jasnah was all like, "No way man, I don't want no Scrubs &/or ball and chain weighin' me down"

Edited January 23, 2014 by el_warko

[flinn]

I voted "bad" although I'm convinced he thought he was right. If, in the next book, he has a really good justification for what he did while feeling horrible about it, I would consider changing my mind about him from "loser" to "misguided puppet".

My impression of Amaram is that he was once a pretty good, honorable guy. By the time of TWoK, that's slipped a lot. He justifies murder by saying it's for the greater good. The problem with that is how he defines the greater good, i.e., highest average good for everyone or covering his own rear end because he can do a lot of good someday if he feels like it. I think the latter is true for him. I'm reminded of Shai's idea in TES that losing your way in life is a slow process that you don't notice till it's happened.

I wouldn't be upset if Amaram was redeemed at some point. Like I said, I think he used to be on the good side. But absent a quick turn-around, I want see Kaladin mop up the floor with him.

 This right here...

 

 If he actually thought killing his own soldiers was right, in any kind of way, that makes him just what he is. 

There is a such thing as sacrifice, he made no sacrifice, he just killed them.

 

 I am a firm believer that it is your responsibility to take care of those under you. You do the best you can by them. 

[Fistsofrage]

My feelings about Amaram are complex, as is the moral dilemma he's in.

 

I voted that he is okay, although I'd like to clarify. First of all, I really hate what he did to Kaladin and his men. In fact, I nearly cried when I read that section of the book. I wanted him dead, preferably by Kaladin's hand. But now, I'm mostly curious. Why does the "honorable" lighteyes decide to slaughter four men and send the man who is his savior into slavery? 

 

It again comes down to that basic phrase: Journey before Destination. Amaram is clearly setting his destination above the journey, as most lighteyes do. In his mind, he's trying to do the right thing. However, Amaram gets into some deep doo doo here, as he apparently decides that murder is the best option. He tries to rationalize it by saying "But I can use the Plate and Blade for the most good." And maybe he can. In fact, he probably has. That's the difficult part: Amaram may have saved more lives by taking the blade than giving it to Kaladin's men. 

 

However, does this justify slaughtering four men in cold blood? I don't think so. These are four men who have done nothing wrong, and Amaram knows it. He feels guilt, if only for a split second. It's also suggested that he had to be guided to this decision by Restares. Does this guilt and pressure acquit him? No. In the end, after he'd weighed the odds for hours, he decides that killing Kaladin's men is still the best option. No matter what guilt he feels about it, he still did it. That itself is unforgivable. 

 

However, I'm very much a "walk in someone's shoes" type of person. In the end, we'd have to see the dilemma from Amaram's own eyes to see whether he deserves mercy or not. But for now, I peg him as the Well-Intentioned Extremist.

 

EDIT: Wow, hello there, wall of text. Whoops.

 

Uh, we've seen his battle fields and the way he runs his camp. I think he needs more than a shardblade to fix things and preserve lives. His mind is obviously somewhere else. Seriously doubt he cares much for the common man.

[Aleksiel]

Uh, we've seen his battle fields and the way he runs his camp. I think he needs more than a shardblade to fix things and preserve lives. His mind is obviously somewhere else. Seriously doubt he cares much for the common man.

He doesn't! Just think about how he got Tien killed by using him as bait on the battlefield. Amaram may tend to justify such action in the name of the greater good, but he is just a terrible man.

[lummi]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[bartbug]

When I look at Amaram, I definitely don't see Honor. But that's okay. Honor is not an essential facet of being a morally strong man. Not to say that Amaram is one, but our definition of "good" has definitely been skewed a little bit by having Honor be the protagonist God with Odium being that bad guy god. It is necessary to keep in mind that both are, ultimately, part of something that is undeniably good. Adonalsium, the force of Creation, which we also know has some opposition, which is (almost certainly) bad. 

 

So that's important. In all honesty, doing the honorable thing can be (a). morally wrong, and (. plain stupid. Letting Kaladin keep the shards would have been b. In this case, it was also a, but that's alright, considering what could have happened if he had let Kaladin keep them. From Amaram's point of view, Kaladin was a random darkeye, not the bad a soon-to-be radiant we know. Amaram letting Kal keep the shards would have been like the President letting a homeless, or lower class person, keep a nuclear weapon because he found it. Killing him might even be justified, if it could save lives. Remember, (Amaram says) he had to be talked into taking it.

 

In conclusion: We need more to make judgement on Amaram himself. But this one act was definitely a good decision, and morally acceptable as well, when you consider what a Plate and Blade really is.

(Also, his act may save Roshar, depending on how the SA spins out. )

[JesseQ]

Yeah ok well I guess I earned the downvote with my tone I apologize and now withdraw from the conversation.

I think you made a good point if not a little blunt; which I really have no issue with. If I could figure out how to upvote you on my Kindle I would.

Edited January 23, 2014 by JesseQ

[Swimmingly]

I think that taking Kal's Shards was a catalyzing moment for him - he either became honourable out of guilt...or treacherous after having tasted it.

[ChaosVanir]

After reading all three books and based of his actions and words I can say with absolute certainty that Amaram while having good intentions is still a piece of crap. As Kaladin said he could have asked him for them. The argument that no one would believe that he gave them away is bs as kaladin is well known in the army as being fairly strange and lucky. Later Amaram lies blatantly to Dalinar and gets caught out, he is heavily implied to have assaulted Jasnah, and to top it off no spren will choose him Kaladin was chosen by Syl because he is honorable whereas Amaram is far from it. The saying the path to hell is paved with good intentions definitely applies to Amaram. No matter his intentions his actions show that he is far more concerned with appearances than actually living up to his reputation. Dalinar is honorable and doesn't give a damnation if he looks crazy or foolish for sticking to it, Amaram is all about LOOKING honorable and will refuse anything that could ruin his reputation by showing his dishonor.

[RShara]

1 hour ago, ChaosVanir said:

After reading all three books and based of his actions and words I can say with absolute certainty that Amaram while having good intentions is still a piece of crap. As Kaladin said he could have asked him for them. The argument that no one would believe that he gave them away is bs as kaladin is well known in the army as being fairly strange and lucky. Later Amaram lies blatantly to Dalinar and gets caught out, he is heavily implied to have assaulted Jasnah, and to top it off no spren will choose him Kaladin was chosen by Syl because he is honorable whereas Amaram is far from it. The saying the path to hell is paved with good intentions definitely applies to Amaram. No matter his intentions his actions show that he is far more concerned with appearances than actually living up to his reputation. Dalinar is honorable and doesn't give a damnation if he looks crazy or foolish for sticking to it, Amaram is all about LOOKING honorable and will refuse anything that could ruin his reputation by showing his dishonor.

Hey, fyi, this thread is five years old. Generally, you're going to want to create a new one rather than "necro" an old one like this.

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