The Rooster

Amaram Saint or Sinner

Amaram Saint or Sinner   82 members have voted

  1. 1. Is Amaram a Total Jerk or a misunderstood Do-Gooder

    • Jerk-Wad, may he perish in flames!
    • He's okay, you guys. One Bad deed doesn't make him Odium's champion, just hear him out.
    • I think he assaulted Jasnah! Extra Bad man!

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36 posts in this topic

I'd say the biggest topic of debate I've seen on the forums lately has been whether or not Amaram is the scum on the earth.  I have to say I've undecided and awaiting further information, but for this poll you don't have that luxury.  Right now, before the release of WoK what do you think of Amaram.  Bad , OK or EXTRA Bad those are your options. 

 

Begin

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I'd like to know more, but right now he seems more like a misguided but well intended fool than a bloodthirsty and hateful sociopath.

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Yeah, we know too little at the moment to judge him. But from what we have seen he attempts to act honourably a majority of the time, and would seem to be working towards the greater good. Alas, sometimes it is those with the best of intentions that cause the most harm.

 

We shall have to wait and see.

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 He killed his own men. There is nothing that can excuse that. Nothing.

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I think he will have a decent justification for what he did to Kaladin from a destination before journey perspective, ends justify the means. But it will be a bad justification for a KR morality system of journey before destination.

 

I think what we will find is that the ends justify the means guys will end up at times serving Odium, even though they are not horrible people.

 

So I voted that he is OK. Though I don't like the phrasing. I meant that he is not a pure force for bad, just that he thinks he is doing the right thing from a utilitarian perspective. Honor seems like a student of Kant though so on Roshar it is not the right thing.

Edited by dionysus
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I'd prefer an option on this poll of 'waiting for more information' before I cast a vote. Of course, you purposefully didn't add that one in, so I guess I'll vote that he's an okay person who might have some character flaws but isn't significantly bad enough to be considered Odium's champion. (Szeth, I'm looking at you.)

Edited by Moogle
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I'd prefer an option on this poll of 'waiting for more information' before I cast a vote. Of course, you purposefully didn't add that one in, so I guess I'll vote that he's an okay person who might have some character flaws but isn't significantly bad enough to be considered Odium's champion. (Szeth, I'm looking at you.)

YOU MUST CHOOSE

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I vote for ok, but seriously misguided. I find the coincidence that Gavilar suspected Restares 2nd of sending Szeth and that Restares is the one who convinced Amaram to take the shards as a little much. If there isn't more to Restares then I amend my answer to Bad. Wildly speculating, part of me sees Restares as Ishar, because he is doing some seriously messed up guiding of Amaram. But I'm not really convinced of that.

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It's a popular fantasy trope...I'm sure once his motivations are explained most people will understand.

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Although I voted very bad (only becuase of the 2nd half - I think he did something to Jasnah), I don't think he is an all-around bad guy. I equate him very similarly to Jaime Lannister. A character I HATED in the few few books, but has some around to be my second favorite character (Tyrion is probably my favorite character of any book, ever).

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Seeing him in close counsel with Gavilar makes me want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I suspect that he will be revealed to be generally okay, but not really a saint. Kinda like everyone else in this story - except Syl, she's an angel.

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Amaram lovers pfttt.....

 

Just joking, I kind suprised about the result of this poll, who would guess somuch support.

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I think that Amaram's motives were sincere and genuine. That he honestly regretted betraying Kaladin - especially when Kaladin admonished him with, "You were supposed to be an honorable one!" I think that really affected Amaram.

I'm also of the opinion that Amaram will be a true friend to Dalinar. The fundamental difference between the two men is that Amaram believe that the end justifies the means when it's for the greater good and Dalinar is more of an individual liberties kind of guy where the means is more important than the end.

Compared to politicians in our world, there are no men like Dalinar. At least, not in his comparative position of power. Sure, there may be local Sheriffs (probably your most important local elected official, by the way) who have sworn to do the right thing and uphold the law as it is explicitly written vs how it is loosely interpreted, but there are no Senators, Governors, or anything like that who act like Dalinar would.

Compared to politicians in our world, there are a small handful of men like Amaram. Men who sincerely want to do right by as many people as they can and who are willing to betray a minority to enable a majority.

But the vast majority of our politicians are like Sadeas. Men who are in it for personal gain.

And I think we all are aware of that, which is why watching a man like Dalinar do the right thing is so appealing. And why I think Amaram will prove to be honorable in his intentions but misguided in his methods. Once him and Dalinar meet for a while, Amaram will see the error of his ways, and become a solid supporter who will help mitigate any additional treachery from Sadeas.

Edit: The Greater Good vs Individual Liberties is likely going to become an important theme. Anyone have any thoughts?

Edited by Alaxel
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Edit: The Greater Good vs Individual Liberties is likely going to become an important theme. Anyone have any thoughts?

 

Journey before destination.  I'm not an "Ends Justify the Means" kind of guy.  I think that Amaram is, and that he's not bad, but I hope that he does get taken to task and shown the error of his wicked ways. 

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If you knew that bad stuff was going to be happening, as in end of the world sort of stuff then would you want such a powerful weapon being in the hands of someone who is not capable of utilising it fully?

 

Shardplate and Blade is effectively an army unto itself, and Kaladin gave it away to someone who did not earn it. 

 

Put another way: Your a soldier and stumble upon a battle-tank in the american civil war, something so powerful that it could change the course of history. and then you go and give it to someone else, even though you know that you would be better off using it than they, not to mention countless others. You know damned well that your commanding officer would put a stop to it.

 

Personally I think the way he did it was really harsh but this is a world where Darkeyed people are seen as lesser, not quite the social disparagy of Scadrial but they still see them as lesser. So they would kill them for the greater good rather than let the truth come out. I think that had Kaladin not saved Amaram he would have been killed too.

 

What hurt Kaladin was that he believed Amaram was better than this, not that this would not have been a standard thing for a Lighteyed person to do, not to mention that Amaram to me seems to be someone who needs a master to tell him what to do. He might he a good officer, but hes a puppet.

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Amaram lovers pfttt.....

 

Just joking, I kind suprised about the result of this poll, who would guess somuch support.

Dictators and sociopaths everywhere have surprising amounts of support. It is why I believe that sheeple every once in a while need to be fleeced to learn all over again how to value good people for their actions not their words.

To me Amaram is a deluded sociopath who justifies themselves in the same way concentration camp guards did by saying their victims were in some way inferior, instead of rendered powerless by people different then they were. He has his reasons for murder but then all murderers do, and like them his excuses are lacking in worth because murdering the people you have power over and did everything above and beyond what you could reasonably expect is just plain evil.

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I think that Amaram's motives were sincere and genuine. That he honestly regretted betraying Kaladin - especially when Kaladin admonished him with, "You were supposed to be an honorable one!" I think that really affected Amaram.

I'm sorry, I can't agree here. May be I'm naive, but I think looking "guilty" wasn't a genuine emotion from Amaram. He's a Brightlord, so he should be able to control his countenance, and so seeing him "looking guilty" doesn't in any way convince me that he was really affected by Kaladin's blame.

Why murder the other four of Kaladin's squad? He could have sold them to slavers, too, so to different slavers. I'm sure there were possibilities to separate those five and send them away. Their deaths were not the only way, I think, the fastest perhaps, but not the only.

And wouldn't there have been others who saw this event? Did Amaram kill everybody who was suspicious of having seen what happened? I think Amaram is capable of doing this.

I believe that Amaram thought what he did was for the "greater good". But his "greater good" focuses on him and his equals, so this is not a "greater good" that could justify his actions.

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Yeah ok well I guess I earned the downvote with my tone I apologize and now withdraw from the conversation.

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It doesn't really matter what his reasons were. He killed his men for a weapon. Reminds me of Ahmann Jardir from the Demon Cycle series... Anyway, even if Amaram is trying to save the world, he did it while screwing Kaladin. He chose the utterly wrong moment to show us his bad side. He could save a thousand people tommorrow, but it doesn't bring back Kaladin's men. Kaladin may protect and preserve Amaram's life, but he will never forgive him.

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I voted "bad" although I'm convinced he thought he was right. If, in the next book, he has a really good justification for what he did while feeling horrible about it, I would consider changing my mind about him from "loser" to "misguided puppet".

My impression of Amaram is that he was once a pretty good, honorable guy. By the time of TWoK, that's slipped a lot. He justifies murder by saying it's for the greater good. The problem with that is how he defines the greater good, i.e., highest average good for everyone or covering his own rear end because he can do a lot of good someday if he feels like it. I think the latter is true for him. I'm reminded of Shai's idea in TES that losing your way in life is a slow process that you don't notice till it's happened.

I wouldn't be upset if Amaram was redeemed at some point. Like I said, I think he used to be on the good side. But absent a quick turn-around, I want see Kaladin mop up the floor with him.

Edited by bookspren
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I really don't like him. But I think he's part of some intrigue opposing the Ghostbloods, and they wanted him dead badly enough to send a Shardbearer. They'll try again, and almost succeeded the first time. If he doesn't take the Shards, he's all but guaranteed to die. So he fears for his own life, which isn't the most noble of motives, but explains how he could be driven to something so horrible. And rightly or wrongly, he believes his group's opposition to the Ghostbloods, and his place in it, makes it all for the greater good.

I still voted that he's bad. The possibility that there wasn't some better way of handling the situation than cold-blooded murder is slim.

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I didn't vote at all since I don't really like the choices. None of them seem "right" and picking one because it seems a little right seems like the wrong thing to do.

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He's definitely not cool enough to be Odium's champion  :P

 

I vote for him to perish in flames, I don't buy the 'he meant well while screwing Kaladin and killing his soldiers'. What Amaram did was selfish and unjustified. Obviously Kaladin is the better warrior since he saved Amaram, so the-more-skilled-fighter-deserves-the-Blade excuse is nonsense. If you think about it, most bad guys justify their actions with the so called greater good.  And remember how Amaram got Tien and the other young boys to be killed by using them as bait. 

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Uh, evil bad deed/s, and apparently lots of good deeds.

 

The poll doesn't acknowledge the complexity of human nature.

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