Why Mistborn or Full Feruchemists did not have "mixing effects"?

[Oversleep]

I was researching Compounding and Twinborn and Feruchemy. Obviously I came across the information about Twinborn effects and that it's similar to what happened on Roshar with mixing the Surges (it's in Ars Arcanum for SoS and BoM).

But it got me thinking: I get that mixing powers from different systems (one Allomantic and one Feruchemical) produces an effect because of interactions of Investiture... but how does it work on Roshar? After all, they have two powers, but those powers come from the same system! How can they be less subtle than effects of mixing different magics?

And... since two Surges together produce and effect... How come people with ten (I know it's sixteen but they didn't use sixteen) powers from the same system (Mistborn and Full Feruchemists) had not such effects occur? I mean, Khriss goes on how mixing Allomantic and Feruchemical powers does create an effect, but not a single word about it happening earlier. She also says that it made her ver interested and she would not be if it was happening earlier.

EDIT: I think this topic is pretty much exploited, so I voted answers up and down and marked a best one. Don't be upset by your answer being on -1; I voted them down because they're not contributing directly to the question - I'd also vote down some of my posts here if I could.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Oversleep

[Oversleep]

@Yata, you're the real MVP. Thanks for asking Brandon all these questions I'm pumping out

Quote

Yata:There is something that recently was debade by some fans and I hope you may give some clue about the "side effect of interaction between magic" as was pointed in the Twinborn and Surgebinder Cases: Are those "perks" stackable ? To say if I am a Fullborn like Rashek, wil I have all the possible Twinborn's perks or a specific "Fullborn's perk" ? And about the same topic, a Mistborn or Full Feruchemist has his own perk/perks ?

Brandon: I've worked under the premise that if you hold too many of the powers, like a Mistborn, the result is a loss of these little quirks. The mechanics of it are interesting, but I'll leave you to theorize on that sort of thing.
source

Everyone, I order a round of upvotes for Yata!

Edited October 6, 2016 by Oversleep

[Yata]

Indeed the Compound is not one of those secondary effects. As you may see, in theory you may compound also with Allomancy alone if someone gives to you the right unkeyed Metalmind.

About the reason for the Mistborn & Feruchemist absence of perks, probably the power is too integrated. It's not like to have n powers, but you have a single power with multiple possibilities.

I have to admit that it's a weak explaination. But while on Roshar a Surgebinder manipulates the existence forces (surges) within Metallic art the specific Misting  power is only a different filter for the same "power" (this is true also for a Ferring power)

[Voidus]

I suspect that it's likely because Roshars magics are more loosely grouped than on Scadrial, Brandon has said that depending on how you count it there's either 10 or 30 magic systems on Roshar which implies that each Surge is closer to a Magic System than Surgebinding is as a whole. But then again in the same interview he said you could technically count each Misting as a separate one so still hard to say.

[shadowwisp]

Could it be because each allomantic power is 100% Preservation? Burning gold or copper is still 100% Preservation. So Mistborn wouldn't have any "effects" since there is no change in the ratio of Shards. The same goes with feruchemy. But combine the two, and you get a different ratio (75%Preservation, 25% Ruin) of Shards giving you an "effect" that not normally seen.  

But it is different for Surges. Presumably, like the associated Spren, each Surge is a different combination of Honor and Cultivation. Since each Surge has a different ratio, it can considered as a separate magic system. Combine two Surges and you get a new ratio, leading to a novel "effect".  

[Yata]

6 hours ago, Oversleep said:

@Yata, you're the real MVP. Thanks for asking Brandon all these questions I'm pumping out

Everyone, I order a round of upvotes for Yata!

You saw the answer before of me  (It was late night here).

Anyway It's really a interesting answer....Sure it destroy my idea, but now we know more.

Glad to be helpful, I created a post in Cosmere Theories to properly share this new WoB ;-)

[Spoolofwhool]

Interesting you asked this as I asked myself this question awhile back. You are correct I think. A full Mistborn or a full Feruchemist should have 120 effects if we're just considering the 16 base powers, and both should have 496 powers. It's possible that they do, but the effects are more subtle with feruchemy and allomancy. In any case, we do know what 16 of the effects are, the known compounding of burning a metalmind to produce a feruchemical charge. At least, that's what the kandra in BoM was implying.

There's also a question of whether each group of powers produces an effect as well. Another thing is whether hemalurgically gained powers will also produce effects, though I guess they do since Marsh can compound Atium.

[Oversleep]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

In any case, we do know what 16 of the effects are, the known compounding of burning a metalmind to produce a feruchemical charge. At least, that's what the kandra in BoM was implying.

Compounding is not one of those effects - we do not know what is the effect of gold/gold, for example. Compounding is its own, separate thing.

Could you specify what passage in BoM you're refferring to? I can't recall it

[Shardbearer]

Actually, she specifically says in the BoM AA that Roshar is another example of powers mixing.

[Spoolofwhool]

6 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Compounding is not one of those effects - we do not know what is the effect of gold/gold, for example. Compounding is its own, separate thing.

Could you specify what passage in BoM you're refferring to? I can't recall it

I can't remember what the exact passage was, but it was near the start when the other kandra came to brief Wax. He said that any person with two powers has an effect, and Wax responded that he couldn't compound. The kandra then responded with something along the lines of "nonetheless, you will have an effect since you two powers" That implies to me that compounding is an effect, though I admit it may not be. 

[Dunkum]

hmm, could have to do with the sources for the powers.  ferruchemy is at least partially sourced in Ruin's power, and allomancy is purely preservation.  whereas surgebinding is a mix of honor and cultivation (or potentially is, I am not sure we know this for certain).  that still would mean that a full ferruchemist should exhibit something, though

[Spoolofwhool]

It was said though in BoM that a twinborn would have an effect along with their powers. Either that or the kandrz who wanted Wayne's bones didn't really know what he was talking about. I thought the Ars Arcanum talked about compounding on both Scadrial and Roshar though.

[Yata]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

It was said though in BoM that a twinborn would have an effect along with their powers. Either that or the kandrz who wanted Wayne's bones didn't really know what he was talking about. I thought the Ars Arcanum talked about compounding on both Scadrial and Roshar though.

The Kandra's line doesn't imply that the compound is a secondary power:

Quote

“We need to stay ahead of those who might use this for ill purposes,” VenDell said. “We need to experiment and determine how these Identity-free metalminds would work.”
“Doing so will be dangerous,” Wax said. “Mixing the powers is incredibly dangerous.”
“Says the Twinborn,” MeLaan said.
“I’m safe,” Wax said, glancing at her. “My powers don’t compound—they’re from different metals.”
“They may not compound,” VenDell said, “but they’re still fascinating, Lord Waxillium. Any mixing of Allomancy and Feruchemy has unanticipated effects.”

And as I mention before, the Compound isn't something coded in a twinborn (or fullborn) sDNA...It's just an hack to the metallic arts, every misting may compound with the right metalmind (and knowledge).

Spoiler

For example many people thought that Bleeder was using the compound to have all the Speed she showed in the book

 

[Yata]

34 minutes ago, Voidus said:

I suspect that it's likely because Roshars magics are more loosely grouped than on Scadrial, Brandon has said that depending on how you count it there's either 10 or 30 magic systems on Roshar which implies that each Surge is closer to a Magic System than Surgebinding is as a whole. But then again in the same interview he said you could technically count each Misting as a separate one so still hard to say.

Yeah, I am thinking the same.

A single Surge comes with a set of Abilities (for example the two Leashes possible with the Gravity surge) while within the metallic arts a power has not multiple outcomes.

Two surges are like two different mini magic Systems merged. A Mistborn (or a Full Feruchemist) uses a single magic system with an expanded power set.

PS: This made me think...are the perks cumulative or not ? For example a Fullborn, have a single Fullborn's perk or a very high number of perks ?

[Yata]

Actually Jondesu I think that VenDell and Khriss are talking exactly of something supernatural born from the mix of powers. Stupid example the mnemonic abilities of Shallan (I don't know if Shallan's Memories are actually her "extra", it was just to made an example of "abilitiy").

Not simply an option they may performe (for example the ability to every Nicrosil-X Twinborn to improve his Allomantic X with Feruchemy or Compound or the unkeyed Metalmind ) something not strictly coded within the System's rules that comes to be as "unexpeded effect".

[Jondesu]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

Actually Jondesu I think that VenDell and Khriss are talking exactly of something supernatural born from the mix of powers. Stupid example the mnemonic abilities of Shallan (I don't know if Shallan's Memories are actually her "extra", it was just to made an example of "abilitiy").

Not simply an option they may performe (for example the ability to every Nicrosil-X Twinborn to improve his Allomantic X with Feruchemy or Compound or the unkeyed Metalmind ) something not strictly coded within the System's rules that comes to be as "unexpeded effect".

AFAIK, Khriss wrote the Ars Arcanum, right? Here's how she put it there:

Quote

On Scadrial, someone with one Allomantic power and one Feruchemical power is called “Twinborn.” The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar, but I am convinced that each unique combination also creates something distinctive. Not just two powers, you could say, but two powers … and an effect. This demands further study.

I agree that it could come across like you say, but IMHO, that's exaggerating what she's actually saying. Wax does get more than just what Iron and Steel do separately; the Effect of mixing the two is that he becomes a Crasher, able to do something no Steel Misting or Iron Ferring could do. It fits well with how she's describing it there.

jW

[Oversleep]

21 hours ago, Shardbearer said:

Actually, she specifically says in the BoM AA that Roshar is another example of powers mixing.

I mentioned it in the original post, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say

8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

The combination effect for Twinborn is where they get their "Title"

Forgive me if this idea is dumb, but I think that the reason we don't see much in the way of combinations is because Mistings exist. The powers are granted separately. On Roshar, they always come in pairs, so they are designed to produce an effect in combination.

I'm pretty sure that when the Twinborn got their names nobody knew about those perks and almost 350 years after Katacendre Khriss is only speculating on whether they actually exist, although she is pretty sure (luckily we have Brandon who is nice enough to feed us info, so it's definitely a thing).

But that's what the whole question is about: both Brandon and Khriss say that effects come from mixing different types of Investiture. However, on Roshar these are the same types of Investiture (namely, Surgebinding). The fact that they always come in pairs is actually an argument against effects occuring, because effects occur as resultat of interactions of Investiture. If Surgebinding interacts with Surgebinding, why Allomancy doesn't interact with Allomancy? And if only different magic systems produce such effects (like Allomancy and Feruchemy) why are Surges interacting with themselves?

11 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

AFAIK, Khriss wrote the Ars Arcanum, right? Here's how she put it there:

I agree that it could come across like you say, but IMHO, that's exaggerating what she's actually saying. Wax does get more than just what Iron and Steel do separately; the Effect of mixing the two is that he becomes a Crasher, able to do something no Steel Misting or Iron Ferring could do. It fits well with how she's describing it there.

jW

I want to focus on additional, supernatural perks. Not how unique combinations of powers lend to each other and things like that, but those specific, distinctive, additional effects created by powers mixing, like Memories of Lightweavers (probably) and that abnormal power and number of squires of WIndrunners (or whatever Brandon meant).
Khriss in Ars Arcanum is clearly referring to that, as a paragraph earlier she wrote something like "after mixing those powers often something like a chemical reaction occurs. Instead of getting a sum of components, something new is created." (I'm reverse-translating it from Polish, so forgive me)

Chemical reactions are known for creating new things out of its components instead of just getting a mixture of them.

[Shardbearer]

59 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

I mentioned it in the original post, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say

 

Seems I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking why Khriss didn't notice the mixing of powers earlier (on Roshar). But rereading your OP I see that you mean why didn't she notice the effects happening in Era 1 if someone was a full Mistborn or Feruchemist.

Was it Khriss who wrote the AA for Era 1? Probably, since we know she was in the area at the time...

So, maybe she wasn't able to study Mistobrn and Keepers closely enough to notice any effects if they did exist. And it's likely that those effects would have been even more subtle than the Twinborn effects, again assuming they existed in the first place.

And I think that the reason effects are more pronounced on Roshar is that Surgebinders have a lot of Investiture flowing through them.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, shadowwisp said:

Could it be because each allomantic power is 100% Preservation? Burning gold or copper is still 100% Preservation. So Mistborn wouldn't have any "effects" since there is no change in the ratio of Shards. The same goes with feruchemy. But combine the two, and you get a different ratio (75%Preservation, 25% Ruin) of Shards giving you an "effect" that not normally seen.  

But it is different for Surges. Presumably, like the associated Spren, each Surge is a different combination of Honor and Cultivation. Since each Surge has a different ratio, it can considered as a separate magic system. Combine two Surges and you get a new ratio, leading to a novel "effect".  

Good point about allomancy, feruchemy and surgebinding. Small correction though. Spren are the only thing that are of Honor and Cultivation. Surges are natural forces of Roshar and unrelated to the shards.

[Oversleep]

@hoidhunter, I am not talking about how powers are useful together. I'm talking more like "Lightweavers have Illumination/Transformation and the effect of that are their Memories". Not how useful it is to have powers related to changing both reality and others' perception of it.

[Oversleep]

2 minutes ago, hoidhunter said:

Well...then...what is the effect created by Wax?

We do not know anything about the Twinborn effects apart from the fact they exist.

[Dunkum]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

It's the way they are described by Khriss who suggest heavely that they are supernatural effect born from the mixing of those powers. They may or not be related to the source abilities...we don't know.

For example I find some likely between his powers and his Steel bubble...And to me it's the main possibility until now for his "perk".

It's pure speculation but I see it as a "mass with an omni steelpush quite atonomous". So far as I know, no Mistborn did it in the original trilogy and neither other Coinshoot in the old o new books.

and if memory serves, kelsier is pretty close to being a savant at iron/steel, and was able to do things like push on one side of an iron bar, but not the other, so its a little bit surprising that we never see him do something like this unless he just was not able to.

[Landis963]

3 hours ago, Dunkum said:

and if memory serves, kelsier is pretty close to being a savant at iron/steel, and was able to do things like push on one side of an iron bar, but not the other, so its a little bit surprising that we never see him do something like this unless he just was not able to.

Or he never got into a situation where he would need to already be pushing something away.  (Blimey, the grammar on that sentence).  The reason Wax does his "Steel bubble" is to carom away incoming bullets, a technology that TLR undoubtedly suppressed ASAP.  Therefore, no guns, no reason for a steel bubble, no reason for Kel to display one.  

[Oversleep]

Steel bubble is just an advanced trick of steel savants. Brandon says (in Annotations for AoL IIRC) that he wanted to keep the most impressive feats for Mistings, as Mistborn did not delve so deeply into individual metals.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

14 hours ago, Yata said:

For example I find some likely between his powers and his Steel bubble...And to me it's the main possibility until now for his "perk".

It was a while ago so I'm not 100% sure, but I seem to remember Brandon saying that Wax can do the steel-bubble because he is a steel savant, thereby removing that from the pool of possible twinborn effects for Crashers.

edit: Curse you, Oversleep! You have rendered me unnecessary!

Also, my bad habit of replying to the bottom post on a page without checking if that's the last page in the thread.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Eagle of the Forest Path
Ninja'd, sort of

[Yata]

Yeah it was just an idea of mine. I have to read AoL's Annotations jet....It seems just strange to me that nobody else (as far as I remember) developed this trick