NathanielHellman

What the Hell Shallan? Also Kaladin.

26 posts in this topic

When Shallan meets Kaladin in the war camp in Words of Radiance she gets into a fight with him and she said a lot of really uncalled for things. First, off Kaladin is the Captain of the King's guard so he has to check everyone thoroughly and Shallan had already lied to him so he had no reason to trust her. She acts really spoiled when she feels offended when Kaladin doesn't trust her. Second, when she attacks Kaladin's parents and says that Kaladin never knew them. Seriously, what the Hell Shallan? Just, because Kaladin is a Darkeyes you assume that his home life was terrible? Also, she was no one to talk about a bad home life.

While we are at the conversation, Kaladin's dig at Shallan's ancestors mating with sponges was also uncalled for, especially since he is such good friends with Rock. I know this conversation was to show these characters starting at each others' throats, but seriously what was with all of those low blows?

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was probably to show that despite that we empathize with them (mostly because we see their thoughts and the reasons behind their actions), they can be just as unpersonable and rude as everyone else.

I think that scene did a good job to humanize them.

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, NathanielHellman said:

Just, because Kaladin is a Darkeyes you assume that his home life was terrible?

This precisely.

With Shallan, I think this was also supposed to show that despite Shallan being so sympathetic a protagonist (arguable - I admit I'm not fond of her at all), she's still a Lighteyes, and has been brought up as such, with the outlook this implies. This is, basically, our introduction to how many lighteyes portray darkeyes: as people who are supposed to bow down to lighteyes' every wish and who don't care about those oh so important things like lineage. 

As for Kaladin, I think it's both to show that he too can be a jackass, but also to portray that he was losing his cool over Shallan's treatment of him, both before and after. He hates lighteyes for a multitude of reasons, and Shallan's behaviour pushed all of those buttons like a fist smashing a keyboard. Kaladin let loose with the insults, because in contrast to other annoying lighteyes like Matal (?), Sadeas and Amaram, here he doesn't feel like he'll suffer consequences for screaming at her, and so he's free to vent his frustrations.

Edited by Rasarr
5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah Shallan is not exactly an exemplary model of nice people. She looks upto her personal interest more than interest (well she's human she's a bit selfish one) tbh and she feels entitled at times(now that i think about it Adolin is actually opposite he's only like that when he hates you aka Kaladin or in the battlefield as a commander) though that's prolly her upbringing as lighteyes. Kaladin on the other hand is actually kind i mean it's pretty obvious he's genuinely kind though he's not exactly the type of person who's really polite, you know that he's been noticed alot of times by both his superiors, adolin, even fellow bridgman that he's somehow rude at times or alot of times.

But that screaming showmatch is totally on Shallan, i mean Kaladin was literally doing his job and his arguments were good about her possibly being an scammer/impostor since she also lied on clearly what Kaladin was actually acting as a patrol, after the interrogation i doubt Kaladin would hold her over since she can prove she's actually the missing Fiance of Adolin with the spanreed messages. It's just shallan acting spoiled as storm and desperate obviously Kaladin is not exactly the type who would shut up if you do insult him personally.

Edited by goody153
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, NathanielHellman said:

When Shallan meets Kaladin in the war camp in Words of Radiance she gets into a fight with him and she said a lot of really uncalled for things. First, off Kaladin is the Captain of the King's guard so he has to check everyone thoroughly and Shallan had already lied to him so he had no reason to trust her. She acts really spoiled when she feels offended when Kaladin doesn't trust her. Second, when she attacks Kaladin's parents and says that Kaladin never knew them. Seriously, what the Hell Shallan? Just, because Kaladin is a Darkeyes you assume that his home life was terrible? Also, she was no one to talk about a bad home life.

While we are at the conversation, Kaladin's dig at Shallan's ancestors mating with sponges was also uncalled for, especially since he is such good friends with Rock. I know this conversation was to show these characters starting at each others' throats, but seriously what was with all of those low blows?

To be fair to Shallan, I'm pretty sure Kaladin's disposition suggests that his family life was horrible. ;) But yeah, in general I agree they both went way too far and made dumb assumptions about each other.

To be honest I really hope their interaction stays similarly fraught, it's a good dynamic for them and demonstrates exactly why their Spren also have so much tension. :)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, goody153 said:

But that screaming showmatch is totally on Shallan, i mean Kaladin was literally doing his job

No, he wasn't. Shallan really is Adolin's betrothed and Kaladin was about to deny her access to see Adolin, prevent her from bringing news of Jasnah, etc.  She had every reason to get angry. Also, she's not an officer. If she wants to be annoying as hell, that's her prerogative. Kaladin on the other hand is an on-duty officer, and should have been behaving better. Made for a fun scene though.

Edit: 

14 hours ago, Ari said:

To be honest I really hope their interaction stays similarly fraught, it's a good dynamic for them and demonstrates exactly why their Spren also have so much tension. :)

Well, there is the trope where two people that argue all the time end up becoming lovers. 

 

Edited by Argel
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Argel said:

Well, there is the trope where two people that argue all the time end up becoming lovers. 

Ugh, I dear hope not. This concept is so popular, there are three different tropes just to describe its varieties. I'd easily withstand Kaladin spending the next two books quietly pining for Shallan from a distance and going all craaawling iiin my skiiin on us if this cliché was the alternative.

43 minutes ago, Argel said:

No, he wasn't. Shallan really is Adolin's betrothed and Kaladin was about to deny her access to see Adolin, prevent her from bringing news of Jasnah, etc.  She had every reason to get angry.

I'd say not really - she has literally no proof of her identity, and the last time Kaladin saw her, she gave him a completely different story for herself. There's no reason for him to trust her this time when she lied the last time, and there's no reason for her to assume she'll just be let inside - save for the "entitlement" that comes with lighteyes upbringing. Considering that boot theft thing, I'd say she should've swallowed her pride and act slightly more agreeable than "bah, you're so far beneath me, I bet you don't even know who your parents are". True, Kaladin didn't act like he should either, but I'm with goody153 on this one - it's Shallan who's responsible for the conflict escalating like that.

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But ultimately she was legit, and part of Kaladin's job is to figure that out. And part of his job is to not lose his temper like that. Might be poor behavior for Shallon, but it was unprofessional of Kaladin and he should have received a dressing down on it.

I agree, Shallan did not help her case, but Kaladin should have moved her off to a waiting area and let e.g. Navani check in on it further later on. But it was clear the odds of it playing out that way were not going to happen. That to me was Kaladin overstepping his position

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She is only legit cause we know she is legit(readers perspective like duh) but in the point of view of a captain of the guard she just lied to him as a Horneater princess and as far as when it comes to protection she's might have ulterior motives. It's a matter of perspective man.

Kaladin would be the dumbest bodyguard ever if he still let somebody who lied to him blatantly get close to the people he's supposed to protect which that somebody also requested to get close to.

 I mean he's  a storming patrol that time you don't lie to a patrol. When a police officer or a military personnel ask you  about basic stuff do you lie to him/her as well ? Cause that's what just shallan did if stormlight archives was set in the real world. If you lie to a police officer/figure of authority then you are hiding something.

You don't lie to figures of authority for no reason unless you have ulterior motive or hiding something. While in Shallan's case she was legit she still shouldn't have she literally had no reason to lie and even insult those questioning her.

 

Edited by goody153
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The dumbest bodyguard ever is the one that prevents vital information from making it to the people that need it. Like I said, he could have taken her off to the side and conferred with Navani. Which he ended up doing, but only after Shallan got under his skin so much that he should have been read the riot act for conduct unbecoming an officer.

But speaking of dumb, Kaladin ends up putting people that want to kill the king as bodyguards for the king, and he almost participated in the assassination. I like Kaladin, but he was far from an exemplary officer in WoR.

Edit: Actually, he was an accomplice, since he left Moash and the others in place. He just wises up at the last minute, but if he had turned them in there would have been no threat to the king.

Edited by Argel
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I hated literally every interaction that Kaladin and Shallan had in WoK.  They both act idiotically and out of character, as near as I can tell just so they can get off on the wrong foot and slowly go through the "I-used-to-hate-you-now-I-don't" arc that we've all seen a thousand times.

Kaladin and Shallan's interactions were easily the most disappointing part in WoK.  I think it's Brandon Sanderson trying to set up a potential romance, but I don't think I actually like a single Sanderson romance, other than maybe Kelsier/Vin, and I'm pretty certain that wasn't actually supposed to be a romantic relationship.  Well, and Shallan/Adolin, I suppose, since they have a lot of synergy.  I'd feel better about that one if I was convinced that was actually the direction that Brandon was going, but I'm too afraid that Shallan/Kaladin is going to be a thing to really be able to enjoy it.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, galendo said:

I think I hated literally every interaction that Kaladin and Shallan had in WoK.  They both act idiotically and out of character, as near as I can tell just so they can get off on the wrong foot and slowly go through the "I-used-to-hate-you-now-I-don't" arc that we've all seen a thousand times.

Kaladin and Shallan's interactions were easily the most disappointing part in WoK.  I think it's Brandon Sanderson trying to set up a potential romance, but I don't think I actually like a single Sanderson romance, other than maybe Kelsier/Vin, and I'm pretty certain that wasn't actually supposed to be a romantic relationship.  Well, and Shallan/Adolin, I suppose, since they have a lot of synergy.  I'd feel better about that one if I was convinced that was actually the direction that Brandon was going, but I'm too afraid that Shallan/Kaladin is going to be a thing to really be able to enjoy it.

I think you meant to say WoR whenever you said WoK since in WoK they never met or even knew each other existed. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, galendo said:

I think I hated literally every interaction that Kaladin and Shallan had in WoK.  They both act idiotically and out of character, as near as I can tell just so they can get off on the wrong foot and slowly go through the "I-used-to-hate-you-now-I-don't" arc that we've all seen a thousand times.

Kaladin and Shallan's interactions were easily the most disappointing part in WoK.  I think it's Brandon Sanderson trying to set up a potential romance, but I don't think I actually like a single Sanderson romance, other than maybe Kelsier/Vin, and I'm pretty certain that wasn't actually supposed to be a romantic relationship.  Well, and Shallan/Adolin, I suppose, since they have a lot of synergy.  I'd feel better about that one if I was convinced that was actually the direction that Brandon was going, but I'm too afraid that Shallan/Kaladin is going to be a thing to really be able to enjoy it.

I wasn't a fan of their first meetings either, but once they stopped being so hostile to one another I thought their interactions were actually done very well. 

For example, other than the obvious chasm scene, I really liked their conversation where Shallan points out to Kaladin how his prejudices towards Adolin were totally unfounded.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I think you meant to say WoR whenever you said WoK since in WoK they never met or even knew each other existed. 

You are absolutely correct!  The dangers of abbreviation, especially when the abbreviations are so similar.

 

9 hours ago, geralt said:

I wasn't a fan of their first meetings either, but once they stopped being so hostile to one another I thought their interactions were actually done very well. 

For example, other than the obvious chasm scene, I really liked their conversation where Shallan points out to Kaladin how his prejudices towards Adolin were totally unfounded.

By "other than the obvious chasm scene", do you mean that you liked the chasm scene?  Because I didn't like it much at all.  Granted, most of my frustration is due to my suspension of belief being taken outside and beat within an inch of its life, but even in isolation, I didn't really like that sequence very much.  Though I liked it well enough starting from when Shallan summons Pattern as a Shardblade, so it wasn't a complete loss.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My thoughts: I don't think this scene is really supposed to show either character in a negative light. I understand how it would have that effect, but this seems more like two very witty and sharp tongued people finding another person of the same type after months of being around people who, well, aren't either of those things. So when they recognize that the other can match wits with them (and they're already annoyed at the other) they decide, instinctively, to challenge the other and to stretch their brain-legs. When they said all that horrible stuff, it had nothing to do with what they actually thought about the other person. It was just a snaps contest. Trading yo mama jokes. Which can also get pretty cruel if you kinda loathe the other person.

To look a little further into it, it could very well have been a result of a natural conflict between their respective KR Orders. Windrunners are all about honor, and therefore honesty (quite often brutally so), and Lightweavers are all about lies. Sure, Pattern is always buzzing on about truth, but he only cares about truth in the context of whatever lie is trying to obfuscate it. And Syl is clearly racist against Cryptics... Hate is a four letter word, Syl... tsk^2... :P 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/29/2016 at 9:07 PM, galendo said:

I think I hated literally every interaction that Kaladin and Shallan had in WoK.  They both act idiotically and out of character, as near as I can tell just so they can get off on the wrong foot and slowly go through the "I-used-to-hate-you-now-I-don't" arc that we've all seen a thousand times.

Kaladin and Shallan's interactions were easily the most disappointing part in WoK.  I think it's Brandon Sanderson trying to set up a potential romance, but I don't think I actually like a single Sanderson romance, other than maybe Kelsier/Vin, and I'm pretty certain that wasn't actually supposed to be a romantic relationship.  Well, and Shallan/Adolin, I suppose, since they have a lot of synergy.  I'd feel better about that one if I was convinced that was actually the direction that Brandon was going, but I'm too afraid that Shallan/Kaladin is going to be a thing to really be able to enjoy it.

I don't think you have much to fear with Kaladin and Shallan. If it were most other writers, I would be right there with you, but this seems to be a pattern with Sanderson. He sets up a lot of fake "love triangles" that actually start off with no possibility to go anywhere.

Elantris you have Raoden/Sarene/Roial. I know there was no love between Sarene and Roial, but a complicating relationship, nonetheless. But there's never any doubt what's going to happen here.

There's like 3 or 4 of them in Mistborn Era 1. First, Elend/Vin/Spook, then Elend/Vin/Kelsier(ish), then Elend/Vin/Zane. An argument can be made for Elend/Vin/The Well. Not a "love" triangle but certainly a "which one will she choose" moment. Though with all of these it's always obvious that Vin will choose Elend in the end.

Mistborn Era 2 has Steris/Wax/Marasi, but again, it's obvious that he'll end up with Steris.

And, when it comes to Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin, I think it's clear that nothing will ever come of Shallan and Kaladin. It makes sense that they would be attracted to each other, since, as far as they know, they are the only one's that can really understand what the other has been going through, but it wouldn't make any sense for them to get together in the end.

Sanderson likes his kinda/sorta love triangles, but they never pan out poorly or in any way that doesn't make sense. I would be very, very surprised if anything happens between Kaladin and Shallan.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always took Shallan's assault on Kaladin's parents as transference on her part. SHE had the horrific home life, but is suppressing large portions of it which are now surfacing. Transferring it to someone else is part of her coming to terms with it. As for why he's the victim of her transference... I have a theory that Kaladin reminds Shallan of Lin on an unconscious level. It would explain several of their interactions.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I have a theory that Kaladin reminds Shallan of Lin on an unconscious level. It would explain several of their interactions.

I don't see a similarity myself. Are you thinking they look similar, or the protectiveness? Curious to know your thoughts behind it. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/29/2016 at 11:53 PM, Argel said:

The dumbest bodyguard ever is the one that prevents vital information from making it to the people that need it. Like I said, he could have taken her off to the side and conferred with Navani. Which he ended up doing, but only after Shallan got under his skin so much that he should have been read the riot act for conduct unbecoming an officer.

Speaking as an Army veteran, this is not an accurate statement.  Guards are not in the business of gathering intelligence.  Their foremost concern is the safety of those under their care, and individuals with implausible stories do not get a free pass.  In fact, when you are on guard detail attached to an important person, part of your duty is to be an unofficial gatekeeper and restrict annoying individuals from harassing them.

Kaladin's big mistake was to let Shallan pass.  He should have prevented her from entering until there was proof that she was in fact betrothed to Adolin.  Instead, he let her into the room hoping to see the nobility put her in her place.  Ideally, Kaladin would have kept his cool, politely informed Shallan that he had no knowledge of her and she would have to wait until after the meeting completed for an opportunity to speak to the Brightlords if they were interested in doing so, and then kept his mouth shut.

The fact that Shallan was received warmly after the fact doesn't enter into consideration.  You make the best decision possible with the information you have at the time.  The only data point Kaladin had was this woman had previously gone by a different name and participated in a con job.  That doesn't sound like a legitimate future princess to me.  It sounds more like someone planning to scam his employers.

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TheBrian said:

Speaking as an Army veteran, this is not an accurate statement.  Guards are not in the business of gathering intelligence.  Their foremost concern is the safety of those under their care, and individuals with implausible stories do not get a free pass.  In fact, when you are on guard detail attached to an important person, part of your duty is to be an unofficial gatekeeper and restrict annoying individuals from harassing them.

Kaladin's big mistake was to let Shallan pass.  He should have prevented her from entering until there was proof that she was in fact betrothed to Adolin.  Instead, he let her into the room hoping to see the nobility put her in her place.  Ideally, Kaladin would have kept his cool, politely informed Shallan that he had no knowledge of her and she would have to wait until after the meeting completed for an opportunity to speak to the Brightlords if they were interested in doing so, and then kept his mouth shut.

The fact that Shallan was received warmly after the fact doesn't enter into consideration.  You make the best decision possible with the information you have at the time.  The only data point Kaladin had was this woman had previously gone by a different name and participated in a con job.  That doesn't sound like a legitimate future princess to me.  It sounds more like someone planning to scam his employers.

Very good post. I was initially leaning towards Argel's argumentation, stating Kaladin acted outside his duties by entering a shouting match for her and should have went to gather higher authorities to determine if she was legit or not.

You have brought in interesting facts which did help me change my mind about it. While it is obvious Kaladin should have known better than to respond to Shallan's vocal objections, he shouldn't have let her pass. She had no proof to back her claims, nobody could vouch for her and he had known her to lie within dubious company, outright lying to him. As for getting someone to vouch for her, you are right: they were busy with an important meeting concerning state affairs which certainly outrank the future betrothed to a Prince. Had Shallan been wise, she would have stepped aside and declare she would wait right here, until the meeting is over for someone to ask if anyone was interested in hearing her out. Or perhaps she should have stated right away she had knowledge with regards to Princess Jasnah... This would have gotten her Navani's ear immediately. 

The whole scene was more or less badly executed, not by the author, but by the characters. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I remember the scene, Shallan did have proof of her identity : the copy of Jasnah's span-reed conversation with Navani. Kal only let Shallan into the room once that has been read and confirmed.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct, Shallan did have proof. Additionally, if Kaladin is "just a guard" then there should be someone else that Shallan needed to talk to gain access/entry. If Kaladin is the one making that determination -- which is how it is presented in the book -- then he was derelict in his duty. I mean, turning away the causal betrothed to the man third in line for the throne. A causal suggested by Jasnah (sister to the king) and approved by Navani (mother of the king) and Dalinar (second in the line to the throne). Yeah, really great work there Kaladin. Not to mention leaving the conspirators plotting to assassinate the king guarding the king...

With that said, an alternative explanation could be that Dalinar failed to fully explain Kaladin's duties. Which given the lackluster to non-existent intelligence network the Kholins seem to have, may be accurate. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On September 2, 2016 at 10:29 AM, Argel said:

I don't see a similarity myself. Are you thinking they look similar, or the protectiveness? Curious to know your thoughts behind it. 

The mental illness and the (badly) suppressed anger and trauma. Possibly the distrust as well. Not any good traits, but a similar psychology. 

For more info please PM me.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/3/2016 at 4:54 PM, Zea mays said:

As I remember the scene, Shallan did have proof of her identity : the copy of Jasnah's span-reed conversation with Navani. Kal only let Shallan into the room once that has been read and confirmed.

Consider a comparable situation in our world.  A secret service agent guarding President Obama at an event is approached by a woman known to use aliases, who demands immediate access to the President and hands over an email printout as proof that she is Obama's long lost sister.  What should the secret service agent do?  Immediately admit the woman to wherever the President is located?  I think not.

I will agree 100% with anyone who claims that Kaladin behaved inappropriately towards Shallan, but there is no storming way he should have accepted a piece of paper as evidence that she should be allowed to pass.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/3/2016 at 7:10 PM, Argel said:

Correct, Shallan did have proof. Additionally, if Kaladin is "just a guard" then there should be someone else that Shallan needed to talk to gain access/entry. If Kaladin is the one making that determination -- which is how it is presented in the book -- then he was derelict in his duty. I mean, turning away the causal betrothed to the man third in line for the throne. A causal suggested by Jasnah (sister to the king) and approved by Navani (mother of the king) and Dalinar (second in the line to the throne). Yeah, really great work there Kaladin. Not to mention leaving the conspirators plotting to assassinate the king guarding the king...

With that said, an alternative explanation could be that Dalinar failed to fully explain Kaladin's duties. Which given the lackluster to non-existent intelligence network the Kholins seem to have, may be accurate. 

Kaladin's position is Captain of the Cobalt Guard (Kholin house guards).  He was not the correct person for Shallan to approach.  She should have arranged a meeting with a lower-ranking noble in order to get an introduction.  It was highly unusual (and therefore suspicious) for Shallan to appear as she did in that type of society.  And in any world where forgers exist, a piece of paper by itself is proof of nothing.

Whether or not Shallan is legitimate, Kaladin had to go by the limited information he had at that time.  Expecting Kaladin to recognize Shallan's inherent trustworthiness is unrealistic.  He hasn't been reading Shallan's POV chapters with the rest of us, so what reason does he have to believe that this woman is who she says she is?  Other than the piece of paper that could have been forged for all he knows.  In this situation, the only facts that matter to the decision are the ones that Kaladin has access to.

And just because Kaladin was wrong to harass Shallan and very wrong to get involved with Moash's plot does not mean he was wrong to try restricting her access.  Those are 3 separate issues.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.