theory What "Returns" with a Returned?

[Landis963]

Something I saw on the Cosmere Q&A sparked this idea.  The general process of Returning works thusly:  A person dies, their soul is shown a picture of some bad future (or at least some facet of it that they care about), and then the soul is given the choice of whether or not to Return.  If they accept, they gain a Divine Breath and Return as a 5th-Heightening amnesiac that needs an additional Breath each week.  However, there's something odd going on.  Why do the memories not return when the person does?  If it were the actual soul (or rather, the Cognitive and Spiritual aspects of that person) returning, the memories they had would come with them (as part of the Cognitive aspect of that soul).  This is very much not the case (as it would severely simplify and obviate the major mystery of Lightsong's character, among others), but what is interesting is that muscle memory is maintained (juggling vs. pottery, for example), attitudes are maintained (Lightsong instinctually rebelling against the gods' lifestyle, instinctually calling Llarimar "Scoot"), but not memory.  

My conclusion is that the Returned is not the original soul but is instead a Divine Breath in the shape of the original soul.  The spiritual Connections remain in place, and the Physical body of course has not moved during the process of Returning, but the Cognitive is absent entirely.  The process of Returning, therefore, is a "half as long, twice as bright" version of making a Lifeless, that only Endowment can do because She can see into all 3 realms.  What happens to the soul?  I suspect that this shaping forges a Connection between the soul and the body, and therefore the soul sticks around as a Cognitive Shadow, watching their body work toward the goal set by Endowment's Awakening.  (Maybe that's why the Returned needs so much Breath - it's all going to sustain the original soul in the Cognitive Realm)

Edited August 27, 2016 by Landis963

[Yata]

I may see the reason to think that a Returned is a Divine-Breath who imit/imprint the deadman's soul.

I have to say that your idea about the weekly Breath as fuel for the former deadman's cognitive shadow is quite briliant, you give us a actual possibility.

There are other possibilities, for example: Endowment seals the memories because She doesn't want that the people uses her chance to return as an extra life or for a personal agenda instead of Endowment agenda.

BUT I have a great doubt. We see the Returned to have be greatily influenced by their former self. With memories who return (bad joke) sometime and often a full memory-recover in the end. With your idea this is caused by the Cognitive Shadow who try to influence/manipulate the Returned. But I don't see the point in this Cognitive Shadow's actions

[The One Who Connects]

I like the concept of this, and think that it's technically possible

M:SH Spoiler

Spoiler

We learn that the dead cannot "come back" because they lost their ties to the physical realm.
 

Perhaps the Divine Breath acts as the connection here?

[Landis963]

22 hours ago, Yata said:

There are other possibilities, for example: Endowment seals the memories because She doesn't want that the people uses her chance to return as an extra life or for a personal agenda instead of Endowment agenda.

Perhaps, but recall the example of Calmseer.  She Returned because she saw that her family would one day be threatened by the disease that killed her.  That's as personal a motivation as one can get without dipping into greed.  (Now if Endowment knew that one of Calmseer's descendants would be important somehow, and wanted to protect that line before illness snuffed it out, then the two agendas would coincide, would they not?)

[WeiryWriter]

I don't have it on hand but there is a WoB floating around somewhere that basically says one of the main differences between Lifeless and Returned is that Returned come back with something extra grafted onto their soul (i.e. the divine Breath), whereas Lifeless get entirely new souls.

Edit: Scratch that I think I found the WoB and it is slightly different than what I was remembering:

Quote

[Reddit - Jul 17-25, 2015]

Oudeis16

If Bob the Awakener Awakened fifty straw men to dance around, then died, then Returned as FormerBob the Appropriately Named, would FormerBob be able to reclaim the Breath from the straw men in the normal fashion (once he learned the "Your Breath to Mine" Command)?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He has enough of his original Identity, and the spiritual connection would remain.

sonofstannis

What if he instead were reincarnated as a lifeless? Is there a way he could reclaim it then?

Brandon Sanderson

Lifeless have someone else's investiture replacing their own. (As opposed to Returned, who are augmented.) Depends on how much of them is left, and if they can achieve sapience again, but I'd say this is unlikely.

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by WeiryWriter

[Landis963]

Hrm.  That certainly throws a monkey wrench into the theory - although I note that Identity is an aspect of the soul, and Brandon specifies a spiritual connection.  Perhaps the Spiritual self is sent back to merge with the body, and the Cognitive is sent on to the Spiritual Realm?  I'm having difficulty puzzling out the mechanism behind the memory lock.  

[WeiryWriter]

I don't think the fact that Returned have limited access to their memories (which aren't completely gone, they get glimpses of them from time to time as we see with Lightsong dreaming of his niece and her being familiar, and Lightsong does get at least some of his back in the moments before he heals Susebron) means that their "Cognitive self" isn't Returned as well. (And if anything it would go to the Beyond, not the Spiritual Realm). It's possible that part of the Returning process just places a block that prevents active remembrance of a individual's personal memories. It could be similar (though I'm not saying this is what I actually believe) to the Realmatic blockage that mistwraiths have.

[+hwiles]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was something as simple as, "the trauma of dying partially wipes out a Returned's memory." I've suspected for a while that if the priests actively engaged and encouraged the Returned to remember their former lives and reason for coming back that they could regain their memory faster/more completely. This is largely speculation at this point, but it seems like a relatively simple and elegant solution to me. Though I'd still prefer @Landis963 be right if I had my way...

[Landis963]

7 hours ago, WeiryWriter said:

I don't think the fact that Returned have limited access to their memories (which aren't completely gone, they get glimpses of them from time to time as we see with Lightsong dreaming of his niece and her being familiar, and Lightsong does get at least some of his back in the moments before he heals Susebron) means that their "Cognitive self" isn't Returned as well. (And if anything it would go to the Beyond, not the Spiritual Realm). It's possible that part of the Returning process just places a block that prevents active remembrance of a individual's personal memories. It could be similar (though I'm not saying this is what I actually believe) to the Realmatic blockage that mistwraiths have.

RE: Beyond vs. Spiritual Realm: To describe my thought process behind that particular dichotomy, I have to go into BoM spoilers: (Seriously, DO NOT READ if you have not already read Bands of Mourning)

Spoiler

Harmony says when Wax dies that "your body, mind, and soul have separated.  Soon one will return to the earth, another to the cosmere, and the third... even I do not know."  The first is obviously Wax's physical self, which of course would decay and decompose in the manner of every dead body everywhere.  The second I presume to be his mind (because it was mentioned second ), and when Harmony offered "freedom" the vision was that of Wax's mind speeding along the myriad connections of the Spiritual Realm perpetually, in a state of constant discovery and exhilaration (compare with a certain look into the future in SH).  However, by process of elimination, that means the soul goes to a place that even Harmony does not know, which I believe to be "the Beyond."  

Suffice it to say that I believe the Beyond and the Spiritual Realm to be two distinct places in the Cosmere's metaphysics, and upon death the mind detaches from the body, and then supplants the soul in the Spiritual Realm, while the soul moves on to the Beyond.  And if I'm reading your point correctly (that the Returning process might create a kandra-esque block between the Returned and the memories of his former life), I see no difference between that point and my theory.  Save perhaps that I'm hypothesizing a much more pervasive block or gap between the Returned and his memories than your post seems to imply.  EDIT: Am I being too dismissive here?  

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

I wouldn't be surprised if it was something as simple as, "the trauma of dying partially wipes out a Returned's memory." I've suspected for a while that if the priests actively engaged and encouraged the Returned to remember their former lives and reason for coming back that they could regain their memory faster/more completely. This is largely speculation at this point, but it seems like a relatively simple and elegant solution to me. Though I'd still prefer @Landis963 be right if I had my way...

But even when Lightsong was very motivated to learn about his past, it continued to elude him.  Even after Llarimar told Lightsong what his death and Return were like, the actual memories didn't return until the moment before he was due to heal Susebron anyway.  I suspect that if the Divine Breath copies anything from its host's Cognitive self, it is the relevant memories only (just before death and Endowment's vision), assuming of course that my model is correct.  

Edited August 29, 2016 by Landis963

[WeiryWriter]

1 minute ago, Landis963 said:

RE: Beyond vs. Spiritual Realm: To describe my thought process behind that particular dichotomy, I have to go into BoM spoilers: (Seriously, DO NOT READ if you have not already read Bands of Mourning)

  Hide contents

Harmony says when Wax dies that "your body, mind, and soul have separated.  Soon one will return to the earth, another to the cosmere, and the third... even I do not know."  The first is obviously Wax's physical self, which of course would decay and decompose in the manner of every dead body everywhere.  The second I presume to be his mind (because it was mentioned second ), and when Harmony offered "freedom" the vision was that of Wax's mind speeding along the myriad connections of the Spiritual Realm perpetually, in a state of constant discovery and exhilaration (compare with a certain look into the future in SH).  However, by process of elimination, that means the soul goes to a place that even Harmony does not know, which I believe to be "the Beyond."  

Suffice it to say that I believe the Beyond and the Spiritual Realm to be two distinct places in the Cosmere's metaphysics, and upon death the mind detaches from the body, and then supplants the soul in the Spiritual Realm, while the soul moves on to the Beyond.  And if your point is correct (that the Returning process might create a kandra-esque block between the Returned and the memories of his former life), I see no difference between that point and my theory.  Save perhaps that I'm hypothesizing a much more pervasive block or gap between the Returned and his memories than your post seems to imply.  

But even when Lightsong was very motivated to learn about his past, it continued to elude him.  Even after Llarimar told Lightsong what his death and Return were like, the actual memories didn't return until the moment before he was due to heal Susebron anyway.  I suspect that if the Divine Breath copies anything from its host's Cognitive self, it is the relevant memories only (just before death and Endowment's vision), assuming of course that my model is correct.  

I would say that it isn't a matter of belief, the Beyond and the Spiritual Realm are distinct places, that is obvious from the text and Brandon's comments on the matter. As for that scene from BoM:

Spoiler

I have always taken that to mean the body returns to the "earth", the soul (which is made up of Investiture) returns to the cosmere (Brandon has said there is a cycle of Invesiture), and then the mind goes to the somewhere else, i.e. the Beyond. Yes that means the two lists don't match up neatly but there is a certain amount of poetry in the way it is currently phrased. At least that makes the most sense to me, since Shards aren't able to communicate with people once they move on (and if their minds are just hanging around in the Spiritual Realm like you propose I don't see why they wouldn't be able to?).

 

[Landis963]

39 minutes ago, WeiryWriter said:

I would say that it isn't a matter of belief, the Beyond and the Spiritual Realm are distinct places, that is obvious from the text and Brandon's comments on the matter. As for that scene from BoM:

  Hide contents

I have always taken that to mean the body returns to the "earth", the soul (which is made up of Investiture) returns to the cosmere (Brandon has said there is a cycle of Invesiture), and then the mind goes to the somewhere else, i.e. the Beyond. Yes that means the two lists don't match up neatly but there is a certain amount of poetry in the way it is currently phrased. At least that makes the most sense to me, since Shards aren't able to communicate with people once they move on (and if their minds are just hanging around in the Spiritual Realm like you propose I don't see why they wouldn't be able to?).

 

You do have a point here.  At the very least, it's all really, really murky, especially with things related to death and the Beyond.  

[Wonko the Sane]

I'm not sure about the cognitive shadow, but I definitely think the idea that the original mind isn't driving the body anymore has merit. Divine Breaths are Splinters -- something that has long perplexed the Shard community, as they don't seem to fit the definition or the other examples we have. A Splinter is a piece of investiture that has developed its own sentience. So on some level a Divine Breath must be sentient, by definition.

How about this (spoilers for BoM):

Spoiler

Let's imagine that Weiry's interpretation of the quote is the correct one. In a typical cosmere death, the Physical self remains earthbound, the Cognitive self goes to the Beyond, and the Spiritual self is returned to the investiture cycle. Endowment isn't able to put the mind back into the body -- Harmony tried that with Elend and Vin, and realized it doesn't work. The Cognitive aspect is going to the Beyond, and Endowment can't touch it there.

You know what Endowment can touch? The Spiritual aspect. He or she grabs it up before it can be recycled, and attaches it to a large piece of free investiture, then invests the corpse with it. The Divine Breath, as such bits of free-floating power are want to do, develops a mind -- but there's a catch. The dead person's Spiritual aspect already 'knows' the kind of mind it's supposed to have. So when the Splinter develops it's sentience, it builds it to a pre-existing pattern, more or less mimicking the original mind. It's not complete, mind you -- just a vague impression -- giving the semblance of what used to be, without access to any of the original thoughts and memories.

 

[Jondesu]

12 hours ago, Wonko the Sane said:

without access to any of the original thoughts and memories

Here's the big problem with that: Lightsong has memories of his life before Returning (just not always available to him, but he ends up remembering some of it).

jW

[Landis963]

On 9/9/2016 at 11:56 AM, Jondesu said:

Here's the big problem with that: Lightsong has memories of his life before Returning (just not always available to him, but he ends up remembering some of it).

jW

The only conscious memories Lightsong displays of "life before Returning" (as opposed to the instinct pathways he rediscovered) are those of the storm where he died - trivial for a Shard that is already paying attention to him to reconstruct.  It's just those instinct pathways that are mucking up the issue.