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Kaladin and Shallan


Xaklys

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@maxal I see you are a big fan of Adolin, but I think Shallan will have some major issues with him. In fact all of the KR practically HAVE to have issues with him for

Spoiler

Sadeas's Murder. Dalinar will investigate, Shallan does not like certain lies, Kaladin believes in what is right, and of course... Life Before Death. Do you think Adolin was influenced by Odium much the way Elhokar's wife is rumored to be?

 

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3 hours ago, maxal said:

What do Adolin and Shallan have to sustain themselves? On paper, not much, but they might be the two characters who will be able to work on a common project, on a future. More importantly however is they surprised us all by... working.

Yes, they work on a physical level. All the physical attraction is here, hell, they even care about eachother... like good friends would do. I mean, I know Vorin culture is pretty damnation modest, when it comes to showing affection, but courting for a few months, Shallan openly, albeit by applying some force, kissing Adolin (scandalous!) and they can't even acknowledge their love to eachother in private? All the pointers are there, but they somehow don't want to take this crucial step, because "I love you" are powerful words and for some reason they are afraid to say them. You might even say insecure. In conclusion, I'd concede, that at a physical level they work, but not on a emotional level, atleast not when the emotion consists out of love. If they don't overcome this soon, it might end badly for them. Of course, Adolin's new problems aren't helping.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin is this breath of fresh air because he comes in where you don't expect him to, he shows surprising layers where you never though to find them and he turned being a contender when no one ever gave him a chance.

I love Adolin as a character, but I don't think Shallan and him are made to last.

@Radiant_Jaeger

Spoiler

I don't think that Adolin is influenced by Odium. Sadeas just provoked him once too much.

 

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11 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

@maxal I see you are a big fan of Adolin, but I think Shallan will have some major issues with him. In fact all of the KR practically HAVE to have issues with him for

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Sadeas's Murder. Dalinar will investigate, Shallan does not like certain lies, Kaladin believes in what is right, and of course... Life Before Death.

Shallan rather bluntly tells Kaladin that she killed her own father. I suspect if she'd never said that or implied that then most people would say that Kaladin would have a big issue with Shallan for that. But he didn't - because Shallan explained the circumstances.

How Shallan will react to Adolin's killing of Sadeas will depend on many things, some of which we have no way to predict. My personal opinion is that if Adolin explains himself to Shallan then she won't have an issue with it and might well support him - after all, she herself has been through painful situations which forced her to kill others so it might even help Shallan open up to Adolin about her own past as well. Shallan did not at all like what Jasnah did to the robbers but that didn't stop her from respecting (practically worshipping) Jasnah either. So if Adolin "comes clean" to Shallan I think things will be fine between them but if he doesn't then her reaction is much harder to predict. It's easier to imagine Adolin feigning innocence (a natural reaction) so Shallan's reaction might go through several stages as the situation develops.

Likewise with Kaladin regarding Shallan's brother. Shallan was definitely angry with Amaram when she first found out but her attitude quickly softened when she thought through his (presumed) circumstances. So Shallan would probably be able to accept and forgive Kaladin for killing Helaran to protect others, so long as he explains things properly, but if he doesn't then it would depend on other things.

 

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15 hours ago, SLNC said:

Yes, they work on a physical level. All the physical attraction is here, hell, they even care about eachother... like good friends would do. I mean, I know Vorin culture is pretty damnation modest, when it comes to showing affection, but courting for a few months, Shallan openly, albeit by applying some force, kissing Adolin (scandalous!) and they can't even acknowledge their love to eachother in private? All the pointers are there, but they somehow don't want to take this crucial step, because "I love you" are powerful words and for some reason they are afraid to say them. You might even say insecure. In conclusion, I'd concede, that at a physical level they work, but not on a emotional level, atleast not when the emotion consists out of love. If they don't overcome this soon, it might end badly for them. Of course, Adolin's new problems aren't helping.

I looked up the timeline: when Shallan meets Adolin for the first time its the start of the 3rd week of the last month of the year. With 5 days per week and 10 weeks per month that means everything we see between them occurs within about 40 days and the first kiss occurred 27 days after they first met. It's not like they could meet every day either - that might have been their 10th meeting, or so.

I don't have a problem with neither of them saying "I love you". It's early days yet and that's the sort of thing that should be said when you're certain - depending upon the culture and people involved of course.

I'm don't see how you reach the conclusion that they don't work on an emotional level. They get along well with each other and enjoy being in each other's company.

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20 hours ago, maxal said:

I think one of the reason why many readers see Adolin/Shallan as refreshing is because they are the unlikely implausible ship, the one which trumps all readers expectations. I once was curious enough to go back a read the discussion occurring prior to the release of WoR, wanting to know what people expected out of the book before reading it. Since I am a character focus reader I obviously dig into the shipping discussion of the time and what was not my surprise to find out the leading ship was... Renarin/Shallan. A few hoped for Kaladin/Shallan, but Adolin/Shallan? It was virtually non-existent. Even after it was announced Shallan would be engaged to Adolin, all posters agreed Shallan would never, ever be interested in Adolin.

On paper, they have nothing in common which has made nearly all readers not think they could ever make it.

In comparison, Renarin and Shallan both are on the intellectual side and many felt his introverted nature would suit Shallan better. Kaladin and Shallan are both broken, they are both Radiants and they both like quick talk. 

What do Adolin and Shallan have to sustain themselves? On paper, not much, but they might be the two characters who will be able to work on a common project, on a future. More importantly however is they surprised us all by... working.

That's what's refreshing about them: they are unexpected and readers love to be surprised from times to times. Adolin is this breath of fresh air because he comes in where you don't expect him to, he shows surprising layers where you never though to find them and he turned being a contender when no one ever gave him a chance.

Good points. I don't remember everything I thought about possible ships for Adolin or Shallan before WoR came out but I certainly don't remember shipping them. I guess the consensus for Adolin was that he would end up with Danlan.

I find them refreshing since I've seen way too many romances that started out with arguments. Having something closer to "love at first sight" is an even older cliché but it's been used so little lately that it feels refreshing (what's old is new again). Certainly Adolin/Shallan was surprising but Shallan by herself was surprising in WoR as well - I certainly didn't expect her to develop so quickly.

In terms of what Adolin and Shallan have in common that could have some bearing on their relationship:

  • They seem to prefer to relax. They are serious when the situation is serious but relax when they can. (Kaladin seems to find it impossible to relax)
  • They prefer to get along with others where possible.
  • They're fairly open about their emotions. Shallan can conceal her real emotions when acting though.
  • They're not shy about interacting with members of the opposite sex.
  • They might both be interested in "the arts" in general, though it's hard to be certain about Adolin. He enjoys fashion and seems to miss concerts, art shows, sculpture contests.
  • They're willing to sacrifice themselves for their families.
  • They're extremely good at things they're passionate about (drawing and duelling).
  • They're their own worst enemy.
  • They tend to be underestimated.

I could go on but I'll stop here. It can be hard to get agreement on this sort of thing.

Edited by kari-no-sugata
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It is amazing how you guys are being busy discussing while I am away at work and unable to participate :o

18 hours ago, SLNC said:

Yes, they work on a physical level. All the physical attraction is here, hell, they even care about eachother... like good friends would do. I mean, I know Vorin culture is pretty damnation modest, when it comes to showing affection, but courting for a few months, Shallan openly, albeit by applying some force, kissing Adolin (scandalous!) and they can't even acknowledge their love to eachother in private? All the pointers are there, but they somehow don't want to take this crucial step, because "I love you" are powerful words and for some reason they are afraid to say them. You might even say insecure. In conclusion, I'd concede, that at a physical level they work, but not on a emotional level, atleast not when the emotion consists out of love. If they don't overcome this soon, it might end badly for them. Of course, Adolin's new problems aren't helping.

I love Adolin as a character, but I don't think Shallan and him are made to last.

The idea behind the Adolin/Shallan ship is real compatibility often transcends paper compatibility. In other words, it is great and awesome to have a list of "most-have" for your future significant other, but life will often throw you a curve ball and match you up with... an unlikely choice. If I analyse every single one of Brandon's chosen ships, it always comes down to this simple fact: two people who appear to have little in common might find out they share common objective and while their interest differ, they create a great symphony when played together. It is why Wax/Steris ended up working and why, I suspect, Adolin/Shallan will end up working as well. Brandon loves unusual ship and well, it may be Adolin has surprised him here because he wasn't the intended one.

As for their behavior, I believe you might be projecting too many of your own expectations on how they should behave into their relationship. They are both young and inexperienced: while Adolin has had many dates, he never went very far in any of them. He might be experienced in dating/courting a girl, but he has no idea about what comes next. Shallan has even less experience than him, so it isn't all that surprising they aren't more forward whenever in private.

I would also point out while you find Shallan "forcing kisses" on Adolin to be cringe-worthy, many think it is adorable because it completely reverse the image we made ourselves of Adolin within the first book. We thought he was a player, but now we find out he is just a shy and inexperienced young man with serious issues when it comes to relationships. Those scenes are meant to highlight, or at least give out a very strong clue, Adolin's reputation isn't what it should be. If it were, he would be everything you wish him to be, but he isn't. That's the key and that's probably why some readers find it fake: Adolin is not behaving as they expected him to, but that's because the Adolin Brandon is writing isn't they Adolin some thought they were reading. What they are superficiality merely is Adolin being on the verge to drop his mask: it is awkward because Adolin is awkward in those situations.

Both within the text and throughout numerous WoB was it confirmed Adolin does have problems developing meaningful relationships. He keeps on being afraid he won't be good enough for them, hence he sabotages them before they can get serious. He has real issues here so to think he should overcome them in mere minutes just because he actually crushes on Shallan is equivalent to think Kaladin should overcome his depression because he has no more reason to feel this way. This isn't how it works and since Adolin issues appear to be rooted into how he was raised by his father (the hard way in a life filled with endless expectations to meet if he is to think he might be worthy of the attention his brother so freely receives), he will have to cross many bridges before he gets there.

Thus, the fact these two haven't said "I love you" after a few weeks of dating hardly is surprising nor is it a testimony their relationship is fake. It just means they aren't there yet. After all, they haven't been forced by events to spill out their secrets as Kaladin and Shallan were which made readers believe these two had better chemistry. This chemistry only exists because of circumstances. In comparison, Adolin and Shallan seem to genuinely enjoy being with each other, which is rather strong step in the right direction.

19 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

@maxal I see you are a big fan of Adolin, but I think Shallan will have some major issues with him. In fact all of the KR practically HAVE to have issues with him for

With respect to Adolin's actions towards the end of WoR, here are two relevant WoB:

 

Quote

 

RURO272

Was Adolin's murder of Sadeas him falling under the influence of Odium, or was that all him?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That was all Adolin.

QUESTION

I am very convinced that Adolin, with the events that happen with the last book. You’re sending him down a like a dark path. Is he possibly going to be a-- Antagonist(?) protagonist(?)-- A bad, eventually? Or is he--

BRANDON SANDERSON

I’m going to say this, the things that Adolin did do not contradict some of the moralities on Roshar, in fact they follow them directly. Some of the moralities on our planet would say what he did is the right thing to do. I think treating it as a “dark path” is too reductionist to say. There are people who would seriously argue, and they would have a good argument, that what Dalinar was doing by leaving Sadeas around was a good idea. And then there are other people who would say “You know what Sadeas did was a challenge and it was rightly then responded to” and then there are people who would say it was absolutely immoral. So, it depends on your philosophy. What would Honor say? Well, Honor’s dead, so-- lots of laughter You know Honor would not have been behind that action, but Honor’s dead.

 

Also, our own Ben McSweeney (the book interior artist) recently wrote a very insightful post on Reddit with regards to Adolin murdering Sadeas. I will quote it here because I feel it is both relevant and interesting. I'll put it within spoilers because it is quite long, bear in mind this was a response to someone else which explains why it starts the way it does.

Spoiler

You're slipping past the point that Adolin killed him during a time of war. Sadeas wasn't just gloating about his intentions to undermine Dalinar and risk the future of mankind for his own profit, he was doing all of that at a time when his nation, not to mention his very species, is engaged with an existential threat.

I think it helps to imagine the context of Adolin's act as framed in what might be a more familiar structure: Imagine it's WWII, and you're a British Army Major in the smoking, war-torn craters of some godforsaken bombed-out city, having just survived a brutal battle with Supermutant Nazis that wiped out most of your company.

While hiding in the ruins, you happen to meet a famous US Army 5-Star General that you have known for many years. He smirkingly reveals to you that not only is he engaging in war profiteering at the cost of Allied lives, but that he's going to keep on doing everything he can to undermine British High Command and prolong the conflict for his benefit. And, he reminds you, he's going to get away with it too. Because even if you tell anyone, he's got so many politicians, judges and high-ranking members of his own Service Branch who are beholden to him that he's effectively untoucheable.

And because you have personally known this man for much of your life, you are keenly aware that every part of this is true, and certain, and factually real. He will personally act to cause the deaths of thousands of men, women and children in order to gain more wealth and power for himself. There is not a damnation thing you can within the system of law to stop him. You have no evidence. Lives are at stake.

So in this moment of his smug confession, with just the two of you alone and away from witnesses, you take your service-issue sidearm and you put a bullet through his eye, splattering the back of his skull across the walls.

Now, the question is not whether you have murdered this man, because you most certainly did paint the plaster with his brains. He didn't get a warning, or a chance to fight back or escape. You took your pistol and you shot that man in the face.

Instead the question is whether it was morally "right" or "wrong" to do so, and by who's definitions. Is it acceptable to summarily execute a self-confessed war criminal, during a time of war, in order to save the lives of others? Should that executioner feel a sense of guilt for his act, and to what degree, and for what reasons? Should they be punished?

Given the history of Western popular culture, I'm surprised by how many people are convinced that Adolin is somehow the bad guy in this scenario.

After reading it for the first time, I had to echo those same thoughts: "Why do readers keep on insisting Adolin is the bad guy, the antagonist, the evil one in this last scene?" Why indeed? Sadeas is a mass murderer, a despot, an arrogant ambitious man with the means to carve his path to the summit upon the life of thousand of people if need be. He is single-handily responsible for the death of 6000 Kholin soldiers, Adolin's soldiers. He is responsible for two failed attempts on both Dalinar and Adolin's life. He spoke out loud of his intentions to keep on undermining Dalinar, despite knowing he is right. He claimed nothing, absolutely nothing would ever change his mind and nothing short of death would ever stop him from going forward with his nefarious plans. So how again is Adolin suddenly a spawn of evil working for Odium or, at the very least, bound to be responsive to its influence, because he took out that man? How did the kid who can't stand bullies, who hates butcheries and warfare, who has constantly put himself last in basically every situations (always willing to die for others without any after thought) suddenly the bad guy?

He isn't. Adolin is just a young man (people tend to age him beyond his years, too many readers forget he is just in his early twenties) with a lot of pressure, both societal and paternal, to meet up impossible expectations to which he responds by putting on a strong front. He has gladly accepted it was his duty to be strong for his family, to be the man of the family, to never waver, to never falter, to never stumble, but at the same time he naturally has a hard time adapting to new circumstances because they shake him to his core threatening to undermine the image of perfect stillness and confidence he works so hard to maintain. So when he is pushed, pushed and pushed again into a world he wants nothing of, a world he is afraid of (Radiants, really?) only to face his family's sworn enemy which gloats to his face he wants to kill everyone he said he'd be strong for, he snaps. He snaps, but he isn't evil.

He isn't evil, he is just the only character within the whole cast who actually does right to fix wrongs, who won't allow abuse to needlessly last, who will stand up for others in ways Kaladin never could/would.

I had thought long and hard as to why so many readers insist on reading Adolin as an evil character and the only answer I managed to come up with were dumb tropes. Still to this day, many readers insist on reading Adolin as one gigantic trope: mostly the Knight in Shinning Armor and since they can't fathom what his role might be (he has no defined function in the story, in other words he isn't a Radiant and most readers don't want him to be because too many Kholins are Radiants and, well, there's Elhokar too, but it is fine if him is one because we don't know what to do with him anyway), then he has to take the Anakin plunge and become evil, even if it violently clashes with every single POV we've had for his character, readers still root for it because tropes say he has nowhere to go but there.

I say we lack imagination if we can't think of a more interesting story arc for Adolin than the boring plunge for evil which is so OOC is would be painful to read. I also just don't think Adolin is the right character for such story arc: it would be more painful and frustrating to read than truly engaging.

It is thus, based on every single WoB made by the author, I would say while Adolin murdering Sadeas certainly will have consequences, it won't alienate Adolin from everyone else, not definitely (probably temporarily). They won't team up to kill him and it would incredibly hypocritical for the so-called Radiants to take it out on Adolin when they each did much worst actions and much less good (Jasnah someone?).

Just as I don't think murdering Helaran (and yes I do think he is dead, him not being dead has no purpose within the main narrative not to forget Brandon will not bring back yet another character from the death without any heavy foreshadowing because of too many said talk about his readers being pissed at him doing it too often) will ruin any potential Kaladin/Shallan ship, I don't think murdering Sadeas will ruin the Adolin/Shallan ship. What might ruin it is either Shallan not really liking Adolin, preferring Kaladin and/or Adolin not being able to overcome his relationship issues which would cause him to send Shallan away.

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Good points. I don't remember everything I thought about possible ships for Adolin or Shallan before WoR came out but I certainly don't remember shipping them. I guess the consensus for Adolin was that he would end up with Danlan.

I find them refreshing since I've seen way too many romances that started out with arguments. Having something closer to "love at first sight" is an even older cliché but it's been used so little lately that it feels refreshing (what's old is new again). Certainly Adolin/Shallan was surprising but Shallan by herself was surprising in WoR as well - I certainly didn't expect her to develop so quickly.

In terms of what Adolin and Shallan have in common that could have some bearing on their relationship:

  • They seem to prefer to relax. They are serious when the situation is serious but relax when they can. (Kaladin seems to find it impossible to relax)
  • They prefer to get along with others where possible.
  • They're fairly open about their emotions. Shallan can conceal her real emotions when acting though.
  • They're not shy about interacting with members of the opposite sex.
  • They might both be interested in "the arts" in general, though it's hard to be certain about Adolin. He enjoys fashion and seems to miss concerts, art shows, sculpture contests.
  • They're willing to sacrifice themselves for their families.
  • They're extremely good at things they're passionate about (drawing and duelling).
  • They're their own worst enemy.
  • They tend to be underestimated.

I could go on but I'll stop here. It can be hard to get agreement on this sort of thing.

Ah nice post. I might have over-state it when I said Adolin and Shallan had nothing in common: they don't, but what they have in common aren't the elements which most readers are putting a strong value on.

I recall I once made the argument Adolin had a creative-oriented mind. Dalinar described him as an artist with only one color to paint with, swordsmanship. His interest in fashion and his statement he once loved to craft himself new styles and his keen eye when it comes to evaluating Shallan's work (he really did sound as if he knew what he was talking about) do imply he might be more artistically inclined than say Kaladin. There is also how he thinks on the battle field, how he always try to use known elements to their best advantages: he is innovative and quite creative.

I have always thought this was something Adolin and Shallan might end up bonding over, in the long run while I can't for the life of me picture Kaladin ever appreciate Shallan's work, not to its full value.

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@maxal Firstly, Kaladin killed Heleran not murdered and also the fact that Adolin murdered Sadeas during war makes it worse not better. Killing an officer in war is a death sentence so if he gets caught he will have to run away because Dalinar and Elbokar will HAVE to execute him for killing a high prince. 

Keep in mind I like Adolin I just have a strong feeling that this is going to blow back in terrible ways upon him

(Short replies cuz I'm at work lol)

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57 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

@maxal Firstly, Kaladin killed Heleran not murdered and also the fact that Adolin murdered Sadeas during war makes it worse not better. Killing an officer in war is a death sentence so if he gets caught he will have to run away because Dalinar and Elbokar will HAVE to execute him for killing a high prince. 

Keep in mind I like Adolin I just have a strong feeling that this is going to blow back in terrible ways upon him

(Short replies cuz I'm at work lol)

I quite frankly do not see how Adolin murdering Sadeas at a time of war makes it worst. Sadeas isn't a friendly officer, he is an enemy who had just issued nothing short but a war declaration. Sadeas claimed he would start a civil war in between both princedoms.

Here is another WoB for you:

Quote

QUESTION

So Words of Radiance… [paper crumpling; Adolin?] ...killed by… [crumpling; Sadeas?] … knife through the eye [crumpling] … worked so hard, I mean like does that change him in any way [?]

BRANDON SANDERSON

You will have to read on and see where it goes, and it’s certainly not something his father would have done, but at the same time, ah, I think there is a legitimate moral argument that what he did was right. I think there’s a legitimate one. I’m not saying it won’t change him or stuff, but there is a legitimate argument.
 
Brandon has repetitively stated Adolin's actions were much less dark than say Jasnah, he has stated Adolin wasn't going down an evil path and he has stated there was a legitimate argument to be have to justify Adolin's actions. As I said, Adolin isn't the evil one in this scene, Sadeas is. Sadeas isn't nice, he isn't friendly, he isn't playing by the rules, he is the enemy and an antagonist. Not Adolin. Adolin isn't the bad guy.
 
People are putting way more stock into the murder than it is likely to cause. Sure, Dalinar is likely to be angry at Adolin, sure Adolin is likely to have consequences, he is likely to feel he isn't worthy of his namesake. Sure Ialai will perhaps try to get revenge, but in the end Adolin isn't going to actively start killing everyone he loves nor is he going to side with a secret society and cause even more death nor is he not going to link himself to Odium. Dalinar also will not hang his own son, he might be hard on him, but he does love him. I can't say about Elhokar, I always thought Dalinar might end up having to chose in between the two, but hey it might just be me imagining things.
 
I also doubt Adolin will run away. I talked about it in another thread. There are many reasons why this particular story arc is unlikely to happen. I could be wrong, but I don't see it working with the current narrative.
 
As for Helaran, we know it wasn't murder, but Shallan will feel it is. She considers it is and is thus to feel it is when she learns the truth.
Edited by maxal
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@maxal I don't know why you get the impression, that anyone wants to paint Adolin as evil. He obviously isn't. Killing Sadeas was morally right, I think everybody acknowledges that. I guess you can compare it best to incapacitating an officer in the army, because he is incompetent. It is right to do it and saves lives, but it is still considered treason, because he was superior in the hierarchy. If Sadeas' murder does surface, it will have consequences - if not by law, then by the vengeful hand of Ialai, as I'm certain she will not let this slide. And yes, it was murder. Adolin had no excuse to kill him. It was pure malice, morally justified malice, but still malice.

I really don't see why you see Adolin/Shallan as an unusual pairing. They are both lighteyes, they both have fighting spirits, though they both enjoy luxury. And are both attractive, which, when we are quite honest with ourselves as humans, is the most common cause for "love at first sight". Why in quotes? Because people don't develop love at first sight, it's just attraction - case in point: "oh, Storms, that smile." Out of this relationships can develop, yes, but not out of instant love, just attraction, quenching the human need for companionship, though I'm not saying that love can't develop from that. In truth, I almost feel bad for Adolin, since his feelings actually seem to be genuine, but as for Shallan - I'm not quite convinced. She's infatuated with him, yes, she cares for him, yes, but all in all out of attraction, not love. Just as she is beginning to realize, that she is also attracted to - but not (yet) infatuated with - Kaladin, though for different reasons. Which, I think, will be the source of the confusion, that Brandon hinted at. In the end, I think, that though Shallan certainly is a strong-willed young woman, she also is someone, who needs anchors. People to which she can hold on to. First it was her brothers (Helaran especially), then it was Kabsal and now it is Adolin. She is deceiving herself into loving Adolin, although in truth she is "just" infatuated with him and his looks. Which would be all fine and dandy, were it not for Kaladin, who has intrigued her. I'm not saying, she's gonna use the next opportunity to run off with Kaladin, but she, being a thinking girl, will begin to think about the definition of love and if it really is that what she feels for Adolin, not necessarily because of Kaladin, but because of how her reason for the causal between Adolin and her is now gone. Mraize seems to have the Davar brothers, so a marriage to a Kholin really wouldn't help her anymore. It would still be a powerful union, but the last Desolation heavily changed Roshar, so powerful, political alliances are not that important right now.

Infatuation comes and goes, but true love stays. What does Shallan feel for Adolin? Only time will tell.

Edited by SLNC
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6 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

@maxal Firstly, Kaladin killed Heleran not murdered and also the fact that Adolin murdered Sadeas during war makes it worse not better. Killing an officer in war is a death sentence so if he gets caught he will have to run away because Dalinar and Elbokar will HAVE to execute him for killing a high prince. 

Keep in mind I like Adolin I just have a strong feeling that this is going to blow back in terrible ways upon him

(Short replies cuz I'm at work lol)

If you're arguing about legal definitions then that'd depend on the country and the laws. I've been on a jurist on a trial for murder and where I am there are legal provisions for people who snap after long term abuse and it would be up to the jury to decide that, and in Adolin's case I think there'd be a reasonable chance that his actions wouldn't be counted as "murder" (though obviously depends on what information is available).

I don't know if we'll see an actual legal trial but if there is it won't necessarily be good for Sadeas's supporters. After all, Sadeas has killed 10s/100s of officers and 1000s of soldiers within Dalinar's army - he'd also be guilty of attempted assassination of Dalinar, two proto Radiants and the actual death of everyone on the bridge (which included numerous officers and their wives). He also declared himself an enemy of the royal family which is straight up treason.

So even legally there's no simple answer.

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I don't think anyone is painting out Adolin to be the bad guy. Adolin is going to get into trouble and he may be forced to face the stark consequences of law or personal revenge for murdering an influential highprince.

Not only that, but Adolin can't prove anything Sadeas said. The only thing that can be proven is that Sadeas was murdered. Would any court of law listen to unsupported claims like "he was a traitor" or "he wanted to kill the King" from the mouth of a murderer?

Quote

Infatuation comes and goes, but true love stays. What does Shallan feel for Adolin? Only time will tell.

Agreed.

Edited by Rob Lucci
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12 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I don't know if we'll see an actual legal trial but if there is it won't necessarily be good for Sadeas's supporters. After all, Sadeas has killed 10s/100s of officers and 1000s of soldiers within Dalinar's army - he'd also be guilty of attempted assassination of Dalinar, two proto Radiants and the actual death of everyone on the bridge (which included numerous officers and their wives). He also declared himself an enemy of the royal family which is straight up treason.

So even legally there's no simple answer.

We know that, but the Kholins can't prove it.

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1 hour ago, SLNC said:

We know that, but the Kholins can't prove it.

and ialai have solid proof to link adolin to the sadeas's murder?

 

we know, but the other? for inciminanting an highprince hier you need very solid proof

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29 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

and ialai have solid proof to link adolin to the sadeas's murder?

 

we know, but the other? for inciminanting an highprince hier you need very solid proof

No. So I think Ialai will keep exerting pressure on Dalinar until Adolin breaks and confesses. Or she finds some other way to find proof, but I'm sure she's more resourceful than Adolin in this regard. Thing is, Adolin thinks it is over with Torol dead, but he doesn't know, or anyone else for that matter, that Ialai is the one behind all the plots.

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3 hours ago, SLNC said:

We know that, but the Kholins can't prove it.

Dalinar didn't even seem to want to try, that I remember.

Not that I think Lightweavers were well known for being spies or that it'll be her most important activity as a Radiant, but Shallan could probably dig up all sorts of dirt if she tried. I wouldn't be surprised if Navani has been digging around as well.

 

1 hour ago, Fulminato said:

and ialai have solid proof to link adolin to the sadeas's murder?

 

we know, but the other? for inciminanting an highprince hier you need very solid proof

Yes, it cuts both ways.

Adolin seems to be the type who would find it hard to reliably deny it though. Hard to say which way things would go : I think for his relationship with Shallan there is a significant risk that "the cover-up would be more damaging than the crime", but if things go down that route then maybe the challenge from outsiders (eg Ialai) would be small. Conversely, if he admits to it quite quickly (privately at least) then maybe the main "threat" will be external.

 

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

No. So I think Ialai will keep exerting pressure on Dalinar until Adolin breaks and confesses. Or she finds some other way to find proof, but I'm sure she's more resourceful than Adolin in this regard. Thing is, Adolin thinks it is over with Torol dead, but he doesn't know, or anyone else for that matter, that Ialai is the one behind all the plots.

She was responsible for the details of some of them but it was Sadeas who gave the order, as it were. I think Ialai is known for being dangerous. I also wouldn't be surprised if Navani wants some revenge for the leak of her notes on Dalinar's visions. I suspect we'll get some form of Ialai vs Shallan and/or Navani though I've no idea if it'll be a major sub-plot or something trivial.

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7 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

I don't think anyone is painting out Adolin to be the bad guy. Adolin is going to get into trouble and he may be forced to face the stark consequences of law or personal revenge for murdering an influential highprince.

Hmm. I couldn't find a poll on this. Bit hard to frame it as a poll really, though maybe there's some good options.

I've certainly seen some posters who seemed to consider Adolin being quite "dark" for what he did and so on. I don't think there's any real disagreement that Sadeas was a nasty immoral guy and plenty of posters cheered his death. I think there was quite a lot of surprise that Adolin would do such a thing though.

There's lots of levels on which this could be analysed. For Adolin himself, clearly he was not in his right mind at the time - it was not something he planned or prepared. It's easy to say there were better options but that's only under the assumption that Sadeas could be brought to justice in a timely manner and before he could cause even more harm, or those working on his behalf would cause even more harm.

Clearly Adolin did not have the legal right to do what he did. Arguing whether it was "moral" or not depends on what your morality is and going by the various WoBs that maxal quoted, clearly there isn't one answer. Also, there's some Radiant orders who would completely support Adolin and some who would definitely be against him. I've no idea what the majority would be, though that won't matter in practice for the next book.

I certainly think that Dalinar has some responsibility here, by being too tolerant of Sadeas. However, that doesn't absolve Adolin either.

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13 hours ago, SLNC said:

@maxal I don't know why you get the impression, that anyone wants to paint Adolin as evil. He obviously isn't. Killing Sadeas was morally right, I think everybody acknowledges that. I guess you can compare it best to incapacitating an officer in the army, because he is incompetent. It is right to do it and saves lives, but it is still considered treason, because he was superior in the hierarchy. If Sadeas' murder does surface, it will have consequences - if not by law, then by the vengeful hand of Ialai, as I'm certain she will not let this slide. And yes, it was murder. Adolin had no excuse to kill him. It was pure malice, morally justified malice, but still malice.

Every two to three weeks, on average, someone starts a thread on Reddit on this very subject and every two to three weeks, I end up reading dozens if not hundred of comments majorly featuring people firmly convinced Adolin is going down an evil path. In this very thread and similar ones, others have argued Adolin would never work out with Shallan because he was going down on said evil path.

Many readers have argued, even up to this day, Adolin would become if not an antagonist, at the very least and anti-hero. Talks of Adolin joining secret societies sprout on a regular basis.

I would thus say, the Adolin is evil and a bad guy talk, does have traction. As I said in my other post, I feel it might be linked to what we discussed into the last Adolin thread. Function. Since he isn't one of the ten major protagonists (as irrelevant this term might be as Adolin's story arc remains larger than say Szeth and Eshonai's despite not being one of the top ten), since he isn't a Radiant (and most readers don't want him to be) and since he can't be Shallan's love interest (the majority of active readers within those discussions share your own thoughts and preferences), then he has no purpose. However, he does have quite a bunch of viewpoints, so it made readers wonder why this might be which had a great deal lot of them latch onto the idea he would become a traitor, an antagonist and... a bad guy.

This being said, Adolin had plenty of excuses to kill Sadeas. The man was a traitor to both his country and his king. Have we forgotten the speech he gave in the highstorm shelter? The one where he admitted his intentions were to kill both Dalinar and the king within the next few months? He claimed he would allow Adolin to survive, he would war with him, but he ultimately felt convinced Adolin would bow down to him understanding he was right all along. Have we forgotten Sadeas publicly talked of treachery, treason and betrayal long before his last gloating in Urithiru?

It wasn't malice. Adolin isn't malicious. He had no intention to spread evil nor did he have ill intentions: he wanted to stop a man which would have caused countless of death, a civil war nor to forget who planned to have his entire family assassinated. How many more justifications does he need to have?

If anyone is malicious in this story arc, it is Sadeas, not Adolin. Adolin just happened to be the only one with the capacity to act. His actions weren't evil, they were morally right, slightly dishonorable (but not entirely) and potentially unlawful (except Brandon told us it wasn't entirely unlawful and Adolin would get a defense). Adolin's most important problems remain the fact Sadeas had a lot of supporters and Dalinar isn't making unanimity. There is also Ialai and well, himself. Himself is likely to be the worst consequences he'll face.

13 hours ago, SLNC said:

I really don't see why you see Adolin/Shallan as an unusual pairing. They are both lighteyes, they both have fighting spirits, though they both enjoy luxury. And are both attractive, which, when we are quite honest with ourselves as humans, is the most common cause for "love at first sight". Why in quotes? Because people don't develop love at first sight, it's just attraction - case in point: "oh, Storms, that smile." Out of this relationships can develop, yes, but not out of instant love, just attraction, quenching the human need for companionship, though I'm not saying that love can't develop from that. In truth, I almost feel bad for Adolin, since his feelings actually seem to be genuine, but as for Shallan - I'm not quite convinced. She's infatuated with him, yes, she cares for him, yes, but all in all out of attraction, not love. Just as she is beginning to realize, that she is also attracted to - but not (yet) infatuated with - Kaladin, though for different reasons. Which, I think, will be the source of the confusion, that Brandon hinted at. In the end, I think, that though Shallan certainly is a strong-willed young woman, she also is someone, who needs anchors. People to which she can hold on to. First it was her brothers (Helaran especially), then it was Kabsal and now it is Adolin. She is deceiving herself into loving Adolin, although in truth she is "just" infatuated with him and his looks. Which would be all fine and dandy, were it not for Kaladin, who has intrigued her. I'm not saying, she's gonna use the next opportunity to run off with Kaladin, but she, being a thinking girl, will begin to think about the definition of love and if it really is that what she feels for Adolin, not necessarily because of Kaladin, but because of how her reason for the causal between Adolin and her is now gone. Mraize seems to have the Davar brothers, so a marriage to a Kholin really wouldn't help her anymore. It would still be a powerful union, but the last Desolation heavily changed Roshar, so powerful, political alliances are not that important right now.

Infatuation comes and goes, but true love stays. What does Shallan feel for Adolin? Only time will tell.


Adolin/Shallan are the unusual pairing for the simple fact nobody ever paired them together. Nobody thought they could work. Even after the engagement was announced all readers were solidly convinced it wouldn't work. They are unusual because they go against every single reader's expectations.

Also, both being lighteyed bear no significance: pairing two characters from different rank is a very common trope, but since Kaladin and Shallan are both Radiants, the eye color becomes irrelevant. As for luxury, I didn't get Shallan had any love for it: she was born onto a given standing, but she never seems this attracted to it.

Also, I never claimed Adolin and Shallan were in love: while Adolin most definitely crushes on Shallan, her own feelings are more... nebulous. Unlike many however, I do not think she likes Kaladin either. I read Shallan as a young inexperienced girl who is new to dating and courtship. She never really sat down and thought about what she might like in men, she hasn't dated many, which is why I find entirely plausible she would glimpse at both Adolin and Kaladin, comparing them. I mean.... it might be all girls do that, I sure did that in my younger years wondering which one of those two guys should I try to date, which one did I prefer. The fact she wonders does not however mean she will automatically chose Kaladin nor does it mean what she has with Adolin is not genuine. Shallan typically has issues acknowledging the truth about herself which I do think will include how she feels, so while her courtship of Adolin might have started with need, but nothing precludes it from becoming something else. The two of them did hit is off, they do like each other and while Shallan's kisses might have been initiated by her fear Adolin would disinterest himself from her, she did succumb to them.

We are all going to have to wait and see where this story arc goes, but I for one am strongly with the Adolin/Shallan bandwagon. I find them more interesting to read, more refreshing, more surprising and I feel they would be better for the overall main narrative.

12 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

If you're arguing about legal definitions then that'd depend on the country and the laws. I've been on a jurist on a trial for murder and where I am there are legal provisions for people who snap after long term abuse and it would be up to the jury to decide that, and in Adolin's case I think there'd be a reasonable chance that his actions wouldn't be counted as "murder" (though obviously depends on what information is available).

I don't know if we'll see an actual legal trial but if there is it won't necessarily be good for Sadeas's supporters. After all, Sadeas has killed 10s/100s of officers and 1000s of soldiers within Dalinar's army - he'd also be guilty of attempted assassination of Dalinar, two proto Radiants and the actual death of everyone on the bridge (which included numerous officers and their wives). He also declared himself an enemy of the royal family which is straight up treason.

So even legally there's no simple answer.

Yeah, the abused individual defense, we have that too in Canada. It is very hard to prove though as you have to convinced the jury/judge the accused has been abused past his breaking point which left him for only resource to kill the victim. All things considered, I could see a case being made for it, but it would be a difficult one.

12 hours ago, SLNC said:

We know that, but the Kholins can't prove it.

Oh, but they can prove it. Sadeas gloated to Adolin, admitted his intentions of killing both Dalinar and the king which is treason. He did all of that... in the Highstorm shelter. Even better, there was a witness: Skar heard everything. If knowledge of this conversation becomes known, then I say Adolin will have strong legal justifications to back his actions as he would have been eliminating a thread to the throne of Alethkar and not just his father.

Also Brandon did say there was a legal argument to be have within the Alethi laws to justify Adolin's actions. Now, we have no way of knowing where this arc might go to, but there might not be a trial. Adolin might never face either execution and/or exile. He might get away with it and this might get concluded very rapidly, we do not know.

What we do know if there will people who will approve and there will be those who won't, worst they will be completely against it. Whom is whom? Common guess is Dalinar would be one of the later, but then again Adolin is his son. I am never entirely sure how much he means to his father, Dalinar is so hard with him most of the time, it is very difficult to figure out how far Dalinar would be willing to go to both punish and protect his eldest. If it were Elhokar or Renarin, my thoughts would be different: I would say Dalinar would do everything he can to shelter them from any consequences, but it is Adolin.... Does Dalinar love Adolin enough to forgive him? I am unsure... I am honestly not sure Dalinar loves Adolin as much as he loves Renarin and Elhokar, I am honestly not sure if he does not prefer Kaladin over his own son. I do however think Dalinar would sacrifice Adolin to secure a definite and strong victory. I will sacrifice his own son to unite Alethkar, of this I am nearly convinced and worst, Adolin would accept this sacrifice, he would agree this is required. Poor kid, nobody values his life, including himself :(

4 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Hmm. I couldn't find a poll on this. Bit hard to frame it as a poll really, though maybe there's some good options.

I've certainly seen some posters who seemed to consider Adolin being quite "dark" for what he did and so on. I don't think there's any real disagreement that Sadeas was a nasty immoral guy and plenty of posters cheered his death. I think there was quite a lot of surprise that Adolin would do such a thing though.

There's lots of levels on which this could be analysed. For Adolin himself, clearly he was not in his right mind at the time - it was not something he planned or prepared. It's easy to say there were better options but that's only under the assumption that Sadeas could be brought to justice in a timely manner and before he could cause even more harm, or those working on his behalf would cause even more harm.

Clearly Adolin did not have the legal right to do what he did. Arguing whether it was "moral" or not depends on what your morality is and going by the various WoBs that maxal quoted, clearly there isn't one answer. Also, there's some Radiant orders who would completely support Adolin and some who would definitely be against him. I've no idea what the majority would be, though that won't matter in practice for the next book.

I certainly think that Dalinar has some responsibility here, by being too tolerant of Sadeas. However, that doesn't absolve Adolin either.

I haven't seen any official poll either, but I have read enough comments on it, be it here or on Reddit to evaluate it is a popular enough idea. 

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17 hours ago, maxal said:

It wasn't malice. Adolin isn't malicious. He had no intention to spread evil nor did he have ill intentions: he wanted to stop a man which would have caused countless of death, a civil war nor to forget who planned to have his entire family assassinated. How many more justifications does he need to have?

If anyone is malicious in this story arc, it is Sadeas, not Adolin. Adolin just happened to be the only one with the capacity to act. His actions weren't evil, they were morally right, slightly dishonorable (but not entirely) and potentially unlawful (except Brandon told us it wasn't entirely unlawful and Adolin would get a defense). Adolin's most important problems remain the fact Sadeas had a lot of supporters and Dalinar isn't making unanimity. There is also Ialai and well, himself. Himself is likely to be the worst consequences he'll face.

Yes, Sadeas was an cremhole, yes, Sadeas threatened his family, yes, Sadeas even acted on it. Still he should have not lost his temper. Whether or not, it is unlawful by Alethi law (I can only go by German law, where I live, sorry :) ) or not (didn't know the WoB existed.) the Kholin reputation will be heavily damaged and Dalinars job of creating unity will be harder than ever, when the other Highprinces think, that the Kholins will just eliminate any resistance they might encounter. Because that's how politically minded persons think, eventhough we know it isn't true, but they will think that Adolin had evil intentions and their distrust will grow.

I was trying to convey, that Adolin is not evil. As I think, he was morally right, even though entirely dishonorable (yes, we know not quite entirely, but the important thing is what the other Alethi princes will think.) and potentially unlawful, but that does not make him evil. Sadly, apparently, my point didn't come across.

17 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin/Shallan are the unusual pairing for the simple fact nobody ever paired them together. Nobody thought they could work. Even after the engagement was announced all readers were solidly convinced it wouldn't work. They are unusual because they go against every single reader's expectations.

Point taken.

17 hours ago, maxal said:

Also, both being lighteyed bear no significance: pairing two characters from different rank is a very common trope, but since Kaladin and Shallan are both Radiants, the eye color becomes irrelevant. As for luxury, I didn't get Shallan had any love for it: she was born onto a given standing, but she never seems this attracted to it.

Ah, but in Roshar it bears big significance. Never heard of a lighteyes and darkeyes getting close, except for Sebarial and Palona, but I can't get what their relationship entails to be quite honest. Can't shake the feeling there is more to it than a simple master-mistress relationship.

17 hours ago, maxal said:

Also, I never claimed Adolin and Shallan were in love: while Adolin most definitely crushes on Shallan, her own feelings are more... nebulous. Unlike many however, I do not think she likes Kaladin either. I read Shallan as a young inexperienced girl who is new to dating and courtship. She never really sat down and thought about what she might like in men, she hasn't dated many, which is why I find entirely plausible she would glimpse at both Adolin and Kaladin, comparing them. I mean.... it might be all girls do that, I sure did that in my younger years wondering which one of those two guys should I try to date, which one did I prefer. The fact she wonders does not however mean she will automatically chose Kaladin nor does it mean what she has with Adolin is not genuine. Shallan typically has issues acknowledging the truth about herself which I do think will include how she feels, so while her courtship of Adolin might have started with need, but nothing precludes it from becoming something else. The two of them did hit is off, they do like each other and while Shallan's kisses might have been initiated by her fear Adolin would disinterest himself from her, she did succumb to them.

We are all going to have to wait and see where this story arc goes, but I for one am strongly with the Adolin/Shallan bandwagon. I find them more interesting to read, more refreshing, more surprising and I feel they would be better for the overall main narrative.

True, you didn't claim that, but many others do.

I do think, that she likes Kaladin, because unlike many others, she understands him. Shallan might seem self-centered sometimes, but is actually a very empathetic woman. At least thats what I think of her. Of couse, empathy is just empathy and does not have to end in attraction, but you can't deny that there is a possibility.

With the rest of your arguments, I agree. I was just trying to make a point that Adolin/Shallan is not yet final, which I got the impression, some on here are convinced of. Actually only my first paragraph was adressed to you, but I thank you for your reply nonetheless. I like this discussion and our stances are surprisingly close.

Except regarding your last paragraph: That's where I have to disagree. So far, the Adolin/Shallan romance arc has been nothing exceptional, actually it's basic Sanderson stuff (*cough* arranged marriages *cough*. Just kidding, Brandon, I still love your work.), except that it goes against a common trope in Fantasy, though I'd argue, that the common trope in Fantasy actually is the uncommon trope on Roshar. Though I wouldn't go as far and say I feel like either Kaladin/Shallan or Adolin/Shallan would be better for the main narrative, because Sanderson surprised me so much in the past, that I kind of mistrust my judgement in this regard.

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12 hours ago, maxal said:

What we do know if there will people who will approve and there will be those who won't, worst they will be completely against it. Whom is whom? Common guess is Dalinar would be one of the later, but then again Adolin is his son. I am never entirely sure how much he means to his father, Dalinar is so hard with him most of the time, it is very difficult to figure out how far Dalinar would be willing to go to both punish and protect his eldest. If it were Elhokar or Renarin, my thoughts would be different: I would say Dalinar would do everything he can to shelter them from any consequences, but it is Adolin.... Does Dalinar love Adolin enough to forgive him? I am unsure... I am honestly not sure Dalinar loves Adolin as much as he loves Renarin and Elhokar, I am honestly not sure if he does not prefer Kaladin over his own son. I do however think Dalinar would sacrifice Adolin to secure a definite and strong victory. I will sacrifice his own son to unite Alethkar, of this I am nearly convinced and worst, Adolin would accept this sacrifice, he would agree this is required. Poor kid, nobody values his life, including himself :(

I would like to counter this point of yours. I do agree that, instead of practical consequences of the murder (imprison, death...), the worse that Adolin will suffer will come from the people he cares and himself. Yes, there will be consequences (trials, revenge from Yalai, etc), but my guess is that Brandon will focus on the conflicts this creates between characters and Adolin. More importantly, how does he feel about it.

But I digress. I wanted to disagree with your idea that Dalinar did not love Adolin. I think that is the oposite of what we here shown. In my prespective, not only Dalinar loves Adolin but he also respect him! He raised Adolin to be a great soldier, a fantastic comander and a worthy sucessor Highprince. Their talk when Dalinar decide to resign shows it. Yes, he does proteck Elhokar and Renarin more, but that does not equate to more love. I actually think that, if given the chance, Dalinar would sacrifice himself to save Adolin. And yes, I remember the duel scene, but I think that was different. In that situation, both would be killed...

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23 hours ago, SLNC said:

No. So I think Ialai will keep exerting pressure on Dalinar until Adolin breaks and confesses. Or she finds some other way to find proof, but I'm sure she's more resourceful than Adolin in this regard. Thing is, Adolin thinks it is over with Torol dead, but he doesn't know, or anyone else for that matter, that Ialai is the one behind all the plots.

 

and how ialai know the man behind torol's death? no whitness. we don't know where are the cut cuff and the dagger, but if anyone don't find them there also no link to adolin o any other kholin man (for the color of the cuff) i suppose sadeas make  some enemy in the alethi court. and in urithiru are alredy arrived many people.

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3 hours ago, Fulminato said:

 

and how ialai know the man behind torol's death? no whitness. we don't know where are the cut cuff and the dagger, but if anyone don't find them there also no link to adolin o any other kholin man (for the color of the cuff) i suppose sadeas make  some enemy in the alethi court. and in urithiru are alredy arrived many people.

She's gonna do it on a whim. Just speculation. She doesn't care about proof and doesn't need it, if she applies pressure until she gets a confession from Adolin. Actually she can put pressure on everyone close to Adolin and he'd crack down. It's just how Adolin is. Poor bloke tbh.

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I think the thing that will crack Adolin into confessing is when the brunt of the blame or at least the speculation falls on Dalinar. Many will believe it was him or by his order that Sadeas was murdered. It will make Dalinars mission of uniting the Highprinces a little harder with his greatest rival suddenly dying and will make the already scant trust a little harder to achieve. I think there will be some moral repercussions in the form of Adolins guilt but i highly doubt the toll will be that great.

 

 

 

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