Kaladin and Shallan

[maxal]

On 4/16/2017 at 4:23 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

Of the current "big three", I find Kaladin to be the least "innovative" (he's a much more conventional hero) but he has a lot of depth. Dalinar is very interesting and innovative as a character and it's nice to see character arcs and romance not being limited to the younger characters - I'm looking forwards to seeing his back story. Shallan is not so much innovative as a character as completely out of the norm for the setting - totally unorthodox as major character in a fantasy series to the extent that I suspect many readers wonder what she's even doing here.

I agree about Kaladin: he is a very traditional hero and while many applaud Brandon for writing what many considers to be a plausible story arc with a depressive character, major depressive protagonists are legion in works of fantasy. The dark brooding hero with a tragic past and difficulty assuming his new role is basically the most popular archetype within fantasy nowadays and while most of them probably do not have "clinical depression", they still read similarly. Well, they do to readers who don't suffer from depression. Others might have a different perspective.

Dalinar follows the grizzled old warrior with a debatable past. The novelty with him is the author wants to make him a main protagonists while most other stories have such character as side characters. I am personally ambivalent with Dalinar. I like the character, I find his past to be intriguing, but his present day version I rather have it in small dose. Basically, he isn't a character I feel needs a very large story arc nor do I feel the story should revolve too strongly on him. His story with Navani doesn't qualify as romance to me: I find it bland and flavorless. I don't mind it exists, but to me they are just a side arc. The major romance arc is the one with Shallan and while the author doesn't seem to agree, this is how most readers actually read his books.

Shallan is very different. She does not follow any predefined archetype, not that I can think of. Typically female characters whom aren't action oriented aren't major protagonists, and yet she is. I am keen to see how Brandon will manage to have her keep on running her own story arc, to keep on having her making the main narrative advance without the support of the action scenes which have made Kaladin everyone's favorite. I don't think people wonder what she is doing in the story, I think people just aren't used to her as a main protagonist and thus do not know what to do with her. 

On 4/16/2017 at 4:23 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

Hmm, I guess I needed to explain my comments on Shallan here a bit more clearly.

As we've discussed before, emotion does motivate Shallan and even starting from the assumption that Shallan takes Adolin's side on Sadeas, how motivated and aggressive she might be in doing so will be influenced by a number of factors, one of which is how strongly she sees Sadeas as being evil (or similar). Shallan is actually a direct victim of Sadeas (from the bridge drop) though I don't remember her acknowledging that (but it should be obvious). Then there's the people around her, including Adolin, Dalinar, Navani, Kaladin and also her guards (Gaz etc). So what about the people who she doesn't know personally? Such as, the people who did die in the bridge drop, the soldiers who were with Adolin in tWoK, and all the slaves who died in bridge runs. Add all those up and just how many deaths has Sadeas caused? Probably well over 10,000. Would Shallan investigate far enough to be able to estimate that? How strongly would that affect her? I'd like to see Shallan go ballistic over this and confronting Dalinar, but I've no idea if that's going to happen since Shallan has shown a tendency to be most motivated by more direct things (ie she'd be more likely to be motivated by the handful of victims she knows personally than the 10,000 or whatever that she doesn't but maybe I'm wrong on that). At the very least though, I want Dalinar to recognise that he was way too lenient on Sadeas, indirectly leading to what happened with Adolin.

I think Shallan would have a hard time generating the same level of concern and/or involvement following the death of 6000 soldiers as she would following a direct threat to her family. It isn't she can't feel empathy for Sadeas's victims, but they are too remote from her. The threat is not direct enough, not geared towards her enough, so I doubt she would go out of her way to defend those people. I think Shallan works better on small scale threats than on larger scales one, thus her involvement with the Sadeas ordeal will depend on how she feels about it. If she sees Adolin as the victim and not the aggressor, then she will defend him with her life if need be, but if she sees him as the aggressor.... Then poor Adolin will have no support at all.

On 4/16/2017 at 4:23 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

Maybe it's just an extreme "survival mode", but I have suspicions it's slightly supernatural. Hard to explain really, but like Shallan's clairvoyance (which is confirmed), I think there's something more to it.

Supernatural? I always felt it was a natural response to a high stress period where her rational thinking needed to be short-cut in order to ensure her survival. What is your rational to state it was supernatural?

On 4/16/2017 at 4:23 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

I'm not sure they'll even meet up, depending on how things play out.

I hope they will. This story arc has been lagging for two books now, I feel it is time for a conclusion. I definitely expects Shallan to meet up with her brothers again and to make decisions with respect to them. Balat and potentially Jushu might not make it, but Wikim is probably safe as he is the one who took on her lead to steer away from Odium. He'll probably make it to Radiant.

On 4/16/2017 at 4:23 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

IIRC it's hard to drain gems in a Shardplate from outside, but might be possible from inside.

I do not recall all of the technical discussion... Isn't there something about how impossible it would be, under normal circumstances for someone to drain their own gems?

On 4/16/2017 at 4:23 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

Well, it depends how "broken" they are and how well they're reflecting an attribute that would attract a particular spren. Attracting a spren doesn't indicate that they're a better person, necessarily - can be the reverse actually.

My thoughts are sprens are looking for individuals behaving in a particular way more than "broken" individuals. They might linger for a while, waiting for the cracks in order to form a bond. Since I don't see it in Elhokar, I feel his figure heads might be something else entirely. It was never confirmed they were Cryptics: we are just assuming.

On 4/16/2017 at 5:45 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

Oops, I had missed commenting on this bit...

To me, this "moments" thing can mean almost anything. Arguably they had "moments" in WoR already. Maybe they'll have some more in Oathbringer but we'll have to read the book to find out how many and how significant. I found this WoB to be more useful:

I agree it could be anything. This being said, there was definitely something in between Shallan and Kaladin whether it was romantic or not has yield to be seen, but it would be doing both characters a disservice not to address it. Thus, independently of whom Shallan chooses things need to be explored with Kaladin.

On 4/16/2017 at 5:45 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

Sounds to me like we might have a weak love triangle until this "confusion" is sorted out, which could easily happen within Oathbreaker (I hope it doesn't drag out any more than that at least). If a new and improved Kaladin returns when Shallan and Adolin's relationship is going through difficulties with who knows what else going on then it's possible there could be some "moments" during that time. The way it's phrased sounds like this "confusion" will be temporary and not ultimately something significant long term, though this might be wishful thinking.

I do have to wonder what's the point of this "confusion" though. Seems like a good way to annoy readers whatever the end result - I don't want to pre-judge the book but it seems like dangerous territory. Going to be hard to do without all three characters coming off worse for it.

I like this WoB and I have interpreted as meaning Shallan will explore her feelings for Kaladin just as Kaladin will explore his feelings towards Shallan while Adolin wonders how he really feels about Shallan... It won't just be Shallan's arc, all other characters will have a say in it or so I hope. We keep on thinking of it as Shallan's story, but the guys do have feelings too.

I agree the confusion might be temporary. I personally do not envision a love triangle where Shallan wonders who she loves best, but I think she will explore her feelings in independent manner. I thus do think Adolin will break up with Shallan, at some point and then there will be something with Kaladin, but not at the same time.

The point of the confusion is Brandon already wrote in Kaladin and Shallan having a "thing". We might not all agree if "thing" there was, but many sees it. The minute they yelled at each other, there as a "thing". The "thing" needs to be addressed just as Marasi was addressed in SoS. I do think the confusion is a required story arc. It might not be grating... I don't why people hate love triangle so much... I realize I perhaps do not mind them, as long as she picks Adolin in the end 

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

To add to my comment above about the possibility of a "weak love triangle"...

Thinking it through, perhaps the "best" in-world reason for doing such a thing would be to kick Shallan's reluctant brain into action. Referring this habit:

If she's having problems with Adolin, she might well take refuge in this bad habit and basically ignore it. However, it would probably be much harder for her to do that if she's also having "moments" with Kaladin because she would inevitably compare the two. (Hopefully that makes any sense...)

I do think Shallan will need to evaluate how she feels about Adolin and if they ever make it up, as a couple, she will have to address her feelings as to whether or not they are genuine or not. 

My favorite scenario is the one where Shallan comes to realize Adolin's reputation is nothing more than a lie and if by breaking this lies, she comes to see the real him. My soap-y silly female side also wonders if there won't be a situation where Adolin's life is on the line which would prompt Shallan's brain to process information faster  but that might be a tad overdone. We'll see.

[Mistform]

@maxal @kari-no-sugata

I always liked Shallan the best because I identified with her, as a woman finishing my Bachelor of Science I liked her scholarly pursuits and her Natural Science drawings. Or to use hyperbole: Shallan is the best character come fight me  . But in all seriousness I want to see more interactions between Shallan and Jasnah.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by her not being "broken", as I'm not sure how everyone is defining brokenness. Tyn didn't think she was broken which she defined by having to do terrible things because Shallan's lies/memory suppression/coping mechanism made her behavior that of an "unbroken" person to Tyn. As for her lies, I've heard from someone with personal experience that the loss of large chunks of childhood memories can happen to people who had abusive childhoods. Brokenness seems to mostly refer to the breaking of the spirit web. I feel we should exercise caution in defining brokenness in terms of how overt/obvious/external the symptoms are, having coping mechanisms that make you appear "normal" doesn't mean you haven't been hurt or need no help.

[kari-no-sugata]

14 hours ago, Mistform said:

@maxal @kari-no-sugata

I always liked Shallan the best because I identified with her, as a woman finishing my Bachelor of Science I liked her scholarly pursuits and her Natural Science drawings. Or to use hyperbole: Shallan is the best character come fight me  . But in all seriousness I want to see more interactions between Shallan and Jasnah.

Although I'm a guy, in some ways I identify with Jasnah and in other ways I identify with Shallan... so either way I'm looking forwards to more interactions between Shallan and Jasnah

Hope you have a nice career putting all that skill and knowledge to good use!

 

14 hours ago, Mistform said:

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by her not being "broken", as I'm not sure how everyone is defining brokenness. Tyn didn't think she was broken which she defined by having to do terrible things because Shallan's lies/memory suppression/coping mechanism made her behavior that of an "unbroken" person to Tyn. As for her lies, I've heard from someone with personal experience that the loss of large chunks of childhood memories can happen to people who had abusive childhoods. Brokenness seems to mostly refer to the breaking of the spirit web. I feel we should exercise caution in defining brokenness in terms of how overt/obvious/external the symptoms are, having coping mechanisms that make you appear "normal" doesn't mean you haven't been hurt or need no help.

I'm not sure if I can answer your question properly but here's some general thoughts on the subject.

I don't know how much mental or physical trauma is required for someone to be "broken" enough for them to form a strong and persistent Nahel bond but clearly our proto Radiants aren't broken for real, "only cracked" as Pattern described Shallan. In-world a lot of characters have referred to themselves or others being "broken" and in this sense it's very vague - it's all up to personal interpretation. Being broken enough (or rather, cracked enough) to form a strong Nahel bond isn't something we can determine in advance either.

I suspect there's quite a wide scope for someone to be "broken enough to form a strong Nahel bond but not broken for real". I wouldn't be surprised if Kaladin and Shallan are close to the extreme edge of being broken for real and shouldn't be taken as being "typical". For example, I doubt many people would consider Jasnah to be broken (in the in-world sense not spiritweb sense) but she's definitely a proto Radiant and has had some past trauma - is she just really good at concealing it or was it relatively mild or a mix of both? We have no real way to tell without finding out her background. I think most people would say that Renarin seems more obviously broken than Dalinar but from a spiritweb point of view is that really the case? Dalinar could be more broken, but perhaps is better able to cope with it - just no real way to tell.

So in the case of Adolin and Elhokar, who is the more broken? There's no real way to answer this without a WoB but I would put my money on Elhokar currently, though things might change in the next book. Are either of them above the threshold where their spiritweb is broken enough such that they can form a strong Nahel bond? Again, no real way to answer this - it could be both, it could be neither, it could be just one of them. However, the strange events around Elhokar in tWoK does hint that perhaps he is above the threshold or close. It could also be that his personality/actions didn't fit - maybe a bond started to form but because he wasn't able to progress the bond dissipated. With regards to what makes me think Elhokar is more broken, I would point to his extreme paranoia - he's so bad that he fabricated an assassination attempt on himself. Which is also the sort of lie that I'm sure Cryptics would like.

I don't know if we'll get an in-world answer to what was happening with Elhokar but it feels that one is overdue.

[maxal]

@kari-no-sugata has the right of it. Truth is we do not know how broken individuals have to be in order for a Nahel bond to form. I would however point out Kaladin started bonded Syl after Tien's death, thus before the most traumatic part of his past which indicates the loss of a beloved brother is enough. Well, it was enough for Kaladin. I would argue what came after might have caused him to break nearly too much to be redeemable. I think this is the key: being broken is one thing, but if you are too broken, you can't be reforged. 

I thus do not expect our other Radiants will have as traumatic pass as Kaladin and Shallan. Jasnahn and Renarin do not appear to have massive skeletons into their closet. Dalinar certainly lived through awful moments, but he never truly processed what he did. Years later, he realized how horrific his ways are: it much more than a Tien he saw died, it is hundreds of Tiens he sent to their death. I have no issue seeing how Dalinar could be broken.

Elhokar... I will not argue as to whether or not Elhokar is broken, but I will argue he doesn't seem to have the right disposition to reforge himself. I agree we are overdue to get the conclusion on him. I maintain my point he is either trying to be conned by Odium and/or he is a failed attempt at a Nahel bond. As the vessel of Dalinar's guilt for Gavilar's death, I sincerely wonder how his role could mix within the current narrative.

Adolin isn't broken, not yet. It isn't he never lived through events which might have broken him, but he pushed it inside. Just like Shallan who refused to shattered, to break, Adolin is the kind of individual who just swallows things down. He is strong, he will not break. He refuses to, until it happens. This is how I see it.

[asterion137]

as a sanderson fan i would like to see the arranged marriage not work out at least once. 3 times in a row is fine (elantris warbreaker mistborn era 2) 4 is a little too much for me

[kari-no-sugata]

8 hours ago, asterion137 said:

as a sanderson fan i would like to see the arranged marriage not work out at least once. 3 times in a row is fine (elantris warbreaker mistborn era 2) 4 is a little too much for me

Generally, I don't have an issue with the way Brandon has done this sort of thing because it's highly realistic for the setting - as soon as money and power became involved, arranged marriages were very common whether it was between nobility or commoners. There's major differences between those examples though:

Elantris: fairly conventional arranged marriage between royalty, couple had communicated by letter in advance and they supported it, but it was "dead on arrival". IIRC there was no actual marriage within the book so it's a bit hard to call it a success.

Warbreaker: probably the sort of thing most people imagine when they think of an arranged marriage. Did work out in the end, yes.

Mistborn: I would call this a marriage of convenience (for economic and political reasons) rather than an arranged marriage, since the couple in question were directly involved. This sort of thing was very common amongst the nobility on Earth.

Shallan+Adolin: technically an arranged causal - both sides also had to agree in advance and were completely free to break things off at any time if they wanted to. Refreshingly for a prearranged meeting between a potential couple in fiction, they hit it off right from the start.

[kari-no-sugata]

On 18/04/2017 at 3:18 AM, maxal said:

Shallan is very different. She does not follow any predefined archetype, not that I can think of. Typically female characters whom aren't action oriented aren't major protagonists, and yet she is. I am keen to see how Brandon will manage to have her keep on running her own story arc, to keep on having her making the main narrative advance without the support of the action scenes which have made Kaladin everyone's favorite. I don't think people wonder what she is doing in the story, I think people just aren't used to her as a main protagonist and thus do not know what to do with her. 

No particularly specific predefined archetypes spring to mind. There is "chaotic good", which I'd say she fits in, but it's very broad and it's hard to think of any single fictional character that Shallan is clearly similar to overall: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticGood

Somewhat related, I haven't read it in a long time but from my vague memories Shallan does come across somewhat similarly to how Richard Feynman describes himself in "Surely you're joking, Mr Feynman": https://www.amazon.com/Surely-Feynman-Adventures-Curious-Character/dp/0393316041

He's more of a scientist who also took interest in other fields (such as drawing and music) while Shallan is closer to being the other way around... but they have quite a few things in common (and some obvious differences).

Anyway, because of the difficulty in pigeon-holing her I suspect this is why we see some readers expecting her to become good at combat - if she morphed into a more common archetype it would be easier to understand her role in the story. btw, when I said "I suspect many readers wonder what she's even doing here", I meant it pretty much like the way you use the phrase "do not know what to do with her" here.

 

On 18/04/2017 at 3:18 AM, maxal said:

I think Shallan would have a hard time generating the same level of concern and/or involvement following the death of 6000 soldiers as she would following a direct threat to her family. It isn't she can't feel empathy for Sadeas's victims, but they are too remote from her. The threat is not direct enough, not geared towards her enough, so I doubt she would go out of her way to defend those people. I think Shallan works better on small scale threats than on larger scales one, thus her involvement with the Sadeas ordeal will depend on how she feels about it. If she sees Adolin as the victim and not the aggressor, then she will defend him with her life if need be, but if she sees him as the aggressor.... Then poor Adolin will have no support at all.

Yep, that's what I suspect. Bit hard to be certain about some points though - there's always a certain amount of variability because of the specific circumstances.

 

On 18/04/2017 at 3:18 AM, maxal said:

Supernatural? I always felt it was a natural response to a high stress period where her rational thinking needed to be short-cut in order to ensure her survival. What is your rational to state it was supernatural?

I'm not sure if I can explain it but consider this quote from WoR:

Quote

 

Shallan shivered, eyes wide at the sudden slaughter below. Then she turned and walked to Tvlakv’s wagons. This sudden chill was familiar to her. The coldness of clarity. She knew what she had to do. She didn’t know if it would work, but she saw the solution—like lines in a drawing, coming together to transform random scribbles into a full picture.

 

Note at this point she's not in any immediate danger, though the overall situation is dire.

When she was down in the caverns being chased by the chasmfiend and led it back to the corpses, I'm pretty sure she was in "coldness of clarity" (since she's very terse when talking to Kaladin during this time). Normally she would have had to draw out her path to exactly retrace her steps, yet she did it pretty much perfectly here.

Basically, her problem solving abilities drastically increase and seem too good to be true for a normal human - she doesn't even need to consider the solution, she "just knows", it seems. Truthwatchers can see the future, so maybe Lightweavers have something similar but much weaker....?

 

On 18/04/2017 at 3:18 AM, maxal said:

My thoughts are sprens are looking for individuals behaving in a particular way more than "broken" individuals. They might linger for a while, waiting for the cracks in order to form a bond. Since I don't see it in Elhokar, I feel his figure heads might be something else entirely. It was never confirmed they were Cryptics: we are just assuming.

One thing I've wondered about is how "radiant spren" locate prospective people to form a bond with. I presume like normal spren they are attracted to certain emotions or whatever. Maybe if they're close enough and someone is channelling a particular emotion (the stronger the better) they can find and track that individual? Then they need to see if they can form a bond. I don't think they need to wait for cracks - pre-existing cracks should work fine. Anyway, Elhokar could be an example of a "near miss" - if so, we might be able to get a better idea of the requirements to form a lasting bond if the reasons for the miss are explained in-world.

 

On 18/04/2017 at 3:18 AM, maxal said:

I agree it could be anything. This being said, there was definitely something in between Shallan and Kaladin whether it was romantic or not has yield to be seen, but it would be doing both characters a disservice not to address it. Thus, independently of whom Shallan chooses things need to be explored with Kaladin.

I like this WoB and I have interpreted as meaning Shallan will explore her feelings for Kaladin just as Kaladin will explore his feelings towards Shallan while Adolin wonders how he really feels about Shallan... It won't just be Shallan's arc, all other characters will have a say in it or so I hope. We keep on thinking of it as Shallan's story, but the guys do have feelings too.

Yep. I was focusing my comments on Shallan since she would be the pivotal character for a hypothetical "love triangle" situation. Ignoring that specific aspect, no character is more important than the other.

 

On 18/04/2017 at 3:18 AM, maxal said:

I agree the confusion might be temporary. I personally do not envision a love triangle where Shallan wonders who she loves best, but I think she will explore her feelings in independent manner. I thus do think Adolin will break up with Shallan, at some point and then there will be something with Kaladin, but not at the same time.

The point of the confusion is Brandon already wrote in Kaladin and Shallan having a "thing". We might not all agree if "thing" there was, but many sees it. The minute they yelled at each other, there as a "thing". The "thing" needs to be addressed just as Marasi was addressed in SoS. I do think the confusion is a required story arc. It might not be grating... I don't why people hate love triangle so much... I realize I perhaps do not mind them, as long as she picks Adolin in the end 

I do think Shallan will need to evaluate how she feels about Adolin and if they ever make it up, as a couple, she will have to address her feelings as to whether or not they are genuine or not. 

My favorite scenario is the one where Shallan comes to realize Adolin's reputation is nothing more than a lie and if by breaking this lies, she comes to see the real him. My soap-y silly female side also wonders if there won't be a situation where Adolin's life is on the line which would prompt Shallan's brain to process information faster  but that might be a tad overdone. We'll see.

What particular aspect of Adolin's reputation do you consider to be a lie? I'm not saying there's no hidden aspects to it all - ie what exactly is behind Adolin's relationships falling apart hasn't been explained in-world but I wouldn't call that a "lie" (unless you're Pattern).

However, in a sense I agree: in the same way that I expect Shallan to help fight against Odium's mental corruption, I also expect her to help with mental problems in general, whether big or small. I think it's quite likely that Lightweavers will be the mental healing specialists (in the same way that Edgedancers are the physical healing specialists). So, whether they end up together or not, I think it's quite likely that Shallan could help Adolin overcome his problems with forming long term relationships.

[Amaror]

I am not a really big fan of love triangles and I really hope the Kalladin/Shallan/Adolin situation doesn't dissolve into that. I was actually pleasently surprised in WoR, that "main protagonist man" and "main protagonist woman" were not all that favourable to each other. I don't really like it when I can tell which characters are goint to have sex with each other based solely on their gender and how important they are to the story. I wasn't particullary happy when the chasm scene happened, though I still did like the scene itself very much.

And, as much as I love Brandons work, I don't have the blind faith in him that he will just magically make those tropes not suck. I loved WoR, but I didn't enjoy Kalladins parts a great deal. I get that it was an important arc for him to go through, but so much of it just relied on Kalladin being dumber than he normally is in order to happen. Which is another pretty tired trope. Protagonist acts dumb to make drama happen. Syl practically told him what he was doing wrong and he still wondered when she grew more distant and he ended up loosing his power. 

[maxal]

On 4/19/2017 at 0:06 AM, asterion137 said:

as a sanderson fan i would like to see the arranged marriage not work out at least once. 3 times in a row is fine (elantris warbreaker mistborn era 2) 4 is a little too much for me

The definition of an arranged wedding is one where the grooms are chosen by their parents. Technically, the one marriage Brandon wrote which does follow this definition is the Siri/Susebron one, all others aren't, so to speak, arranged weddings including Adolin/Shallan.

Why?

Because both sides are completely totally free to disengage themselves. The story has made it rather clear Jasnah tried to link Shallan to her household both to secure her assets and to help her rescue her family while Dalinar agreed to it because he got aware of how his son has become an easy to manipulate play thing for the many women courting him.

Shallan and Adolin absolutely do not have to marry each other. Their union isn't even official by Alethi standards, just more formalized in order to avoid having a new cluster of young women trying to snatch Adolin each passing day.

An arranged wedding implies both parties have limited say in the matter, often not having met each other. It implies a negociation in between parental units of both grooms which isn't something we see in Stormlight. There is no negociations, just a father running a check list before allowing a young woman to court his son. He also mentions he, Navani and of course, Adolin, would have to approve of her is the union is ever to work.

I think it is important to note how Dalinar never gave Adolin's personal life much attention until very recently. It is only after he makes an effort to interest himself into his son, after they have a row, he notices things he didn't like. The courtships are too fast, women just walking into camp are already calling at him and the boy just responds too eagerly. In other words, Dalinar rightfully noted Adolin had no idea what he was doing and was too easily influenced, so he put a stop to all of it.

The union however isn't forced nor a finality, thus if Shallan and Adolin end up liking each other, it will be their decision.

As for the other mentioned ships, I would point out Sarene and Raoden corresponded for months before they agreed to marry each other. Sarene is the one who sought Raoden: her father had nothing to do in it. Those two genuinely decided to marry each other and while they had never met, they both feel in love with their paper friend, the both hope the real individual would be true to the letters. It was a gamble, yes, but one they were both free to make.

As for Wax and Steris, I do not know why they are referred to as an arranged wedding. They were both adults who needed a spouse and couldn't find one, so they both agreed to marry each other. No one forced their hands. There are a variety of reasons why two people might marry and love isn't always the main one: these two both agreed into a loveless marriage because it was preferable for both of their houses. Sure they ended up having feelings for each other, but this has nothing to do with their contract.

What Brandon is essentially writing aren't arranged weddings, but people meeting other people through out various connections. Why does it matter if Shallan meets Adolin because she is Jasnah's ward? Why does it matter if Steris meets Wax because she was aware he was looking for a wife and she a husband? How many people met their significant other because their family and/or friends set them up with someone they thought would please them? One of my friend got set up with her husband by her sisters, it worked, was this an arranged wedding? No, because how they meet absolutely does not matter, what matters is the fact both sides have the freedom to either marry or not.

Thus, Shallan/Adolin absolutely is not an arranged wedding.

On 4/19/2017 at 7:36 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

No particularly specific predefined archetypes spring to mind. There is "chaotic good", which I'd say she fits in, but it's very broad and it's hard to think of any single fictional character that Shallan is clearly similar to overall: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticGood

Somewhat related, I haven't read it in a long time but from my vague memories Shallan does come across somewhat similarly to how Richard Feynman describes himself in "Surely you're joking, Mr Feynman": https://www.amazon.com/Surely-Feynman-Adventures-Curious-Character/dp/0393316041

He's more of a scientist who also took interest in other fields (such as drawing and music) while Shallan is closer to being the other way around... but they have quite a few things in common (and some obvious differences).

Anyway, because of the difficulty in pigeon-holing her I suspect this is why we see some readers expecting her to become good at combat - if she morphed into a more common archetype it would be easier to understand her role in the story. btw, when I said "I suspect many readers wonder what she's even doing here", I meant it pretty much like the way you use the phrase "do not know what to do with her" here.

Chaotic good is indeed a wide term encompassing many various characters. Adolin could also be described chaotic good and he is a very different character than Shallan. This being said I do think readers tend to analyse characters through predefined lenses determined by which archetype they link to said character. For instance, how many times have readers come forth and say Adolin was the brave fearless warrior who is doomed to turn traitor? Or say he loves novelty, adventure and exoticism? These thoughts sprout out of character archetypes: he has few viewpoints, so readers rely on already made up character to base their evaluation of him. Shallan has a lot of viewpoints, but she is hard to pinpoint, hence many readers rely on fantasy most common tropes to evaluate her: the warrior woman. I bet many evaluate Jasnah in the same manner especially after this cover...

On 4/19/2017 at 7:36 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

Note at this point she's not in any immediate danger, though the overall situation is dire.

When she was down in the caverns being chased by the chasmfiend and led it back to the corpses, I'm pretty sure she was in "coldness of clarity" (since she's very terse when talking to Kaladin during this time). Normally she would have had to draw out her path to exactly retrace her steps, yet she did it pretty much perfectly here.

Basically, her problem solving abilities drastically increase and seem too good to be true for a normal human - she doesn't even need to consider the solution, she "just knows", it seems. Truthwatchers can see the future, so maybe Lightweavers have something similar but much weaker....?

The moment where you know exactly what to do and how to do it, the moment where all doubts vanish... It does happen. I am reluctant to state it had magical origin. My thoughts are the reason she didn't need to draw to retrace her steps is linked to her managing to overcome her block when it comes to her ability: she isn't supposed to need to draw, but she has come to rely on it. In this moment, the need is so great, she ignores the fact she needs support. 

This being said, she did make this drawing with Yalb and his crew escaping the drowning ship (which we know they did). She also made this other drawing I forgot many saw as a form of foreshadowing, so it isn't impossible there is some surgebinding linked ability here.

On 4/19/2017 at 7:36 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

One thing I've wondered about is how "radiant spren" locate prospective people to form a bond with. I presume like normal spren they are attracted to certain emotions or whatever. Maybe if they're close enough and someone is channelling a particular emotion (the stronger the better) they can find and track that individual? Then they need to see if they can form a bond. I don't think they need to wait for cracks - pre-existing cracks should work fine. Anyway, Elhokar could be an example of a "near miss" - if so, we might be able to get a better idea of the requirements to form a lasting bond if the reasons for the miss are explained in-world.

We do know sprens aren't completely random in choosing their proto-knights. They are primarily looking for candidates among people standing at the forefront of events. Also, they are attracted to already made up Radiants, being more inclined to choose individuals within the vicinity of known Radiants. Hence, the sprens choosing or investigating Elhokar make sense on all front: he is important and his family are Radiants. However, without those incentive, I doubt they would have come near him. This being said, I can't seem to warm up to Elhokar: I dislike his attitude and I feel he might end up being the kind of character who never grows up, who never progresses.

I also think the cracks required aren't as big as many make them to be... I also have the feeling sprens might be trying to enlarge them... somehow...

On 4/19/2017 at 7:36 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

Yep. I was focusing my comments on Shallan since she would be the pivotal character for a hypothetical "love triangle" situation. Ignoring that specific aspect, no character is more important than the other.

One of the aspects people dislike out of love triangles is the fact the male characters are too often used as drama generator more than protagonists. In other words, all characters need to have their arc, their purpose and their reason to be engaged in love triangle, if not then it becomes grating. Thus Adolin and Kaladin's feelings need to be explored too even if Shallan remains the main actor within this particular story arc.

On 4/19/2017 at 7:36 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

What particular aspect of Adolin's reputation do you consider to be a lie? I'm not saying there's no hidden aspects to it all - ie what exactly is behind Adolin's relationships falling apart hasn't been explained in-world but I wouldn't call that a "lie" (unless you're Pattern).

However, in a sense I agree: in the same way that I expect Shallan to help fight against Odium's mental corruption, I also expect her to help with mental problems in general, whether big or small. I think it's quite likely that Lightweavers will be the mental healing specialists (in the same way that Edgedancers are the physical healing specialists). So, whether they end up together or not, I think it's quite likely that Shallan could help Adolin overcome his problems with forming long term relationships.

I meant his reputation as a Cassanova, a ladies man, a bee killer and whichever other term you might want to use. Everyone takes Adolin for a highly experienced man having conquered all available women, but having rejected each and every one of them because he enjoys the thrill of the chase more than courtship itself. Everyone expects Adolin to have slept with nearly every women or whores if he couldn't get someone else. Tyn called him a flirt.

Yet, when we see him in an actual courtship, his behavior tells another tale. He isn't a Cassanova, he has no idea what he is doing, worst he is terribly shy. He doesn't initiate intimacy which is the reverse behavior you would expect out of a bee killer. It is obvious to me Adolin's reputation is a scam, a lie and completely overdone. Yes, he has courted many women, but he hasn't done anything with them. In shorts, he had 50 first dates and no second ones.

Shallan keeps on expecting Adolin to disinterest himself from her, to go seek elsewhere. She keeps on thinking she has to work to keep him interested in her. Eventually, I expect her to figure out the truth is entirely different. Adolin isn't a flirt, he just can't make relationship work out because he has too much fear in him, fear he might not be the right person, not good enough. Once she realizes this, it might change her entire perspective on him.

I like the idea of Shallan helping Odium infected victims to clear their minds.

6 hours ago, Amaror said:

I am not a really big fan of love triangles and I really hope the Kalladin/Shallan/Adolin situation doesn't dissolve into that. I was actually pleasently surprised in WoR, that "main protagonist man" and "main protagonist woman" were not all that favourable to each other. I don't really like it when I can tell which characters are goint to have sex with each other based solely on their gender and how important they are to the story. I wasn't particullary happy when the chasm scene happened, though I still did like the scene itself very much.

And, as much as I love Brandons work, I don't have the blind faith in him that he will just magically make those tropes not suck. I loved WoR, but I didn't enjoy Kalladins parts a great deal. I get that it was an important arc for him to go through, but so much of it just relied on Kalladin being dumber than he normally is in order to happen. Which is another pretty tired trope. Protagonist acts dumb to make drama happen. Syl practically told him what he was doing wrong and he still wondered when she grew more distant and he ended up loosing his power. 

One of the reason some readers have a strong opposition towards the Kaladin/Shallan ship is the fact it is too conventional, too cliche, too predictable, which makes Adolin/Shallan more refreshing as you don't expect them.

I am with you on dumb characters acting dumb just so their story arc could advance. With Kaladin, I will however state it is short-lived as he does move out of it rather quickly. He also has the capacity to improve himself as opposed to keep on sinking lower. This other book I am reading has one character who starts up great, but then falls and falls and falls without ever managing to cope and/or to stand up again. It is frustrating. 

[Vissy]

That sounds like Gavin Guile from the Lightbringer series.

I personally like the love triangle setup. I like all three characters in it, so why not enjoy the classic romance conflict? I look forward to seeing it resolved.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[kari-no-sugata]

On 21/04/2017 at 3:42 AM, maxal said:

Chaotic good is indeed a wide term encompassing many various characters. Adolin could also be described chaotic good and he is a very different character than Shallan. This being said I do think readers tend to analyse characters through predefined lenses determined by which archetype they link to said character. For instance, how many times have readers come forth and say Adolin was the brave fearless warrior who is doomed to turn traitor? Or say he loves novelty, adventure and exoticism? These thoughts sprout out of character archetypes: he has few viewpoints, so readers rely on already made up character to base their evaluation of him. Shallan has a lot of viewpoints, but she is hard to pinpoint, hence many readers rely on fantasy most common tropes to evaluate her: the warrior woman. I bet many evaluate Jasnah in the same manner especially after this cover...

Yeah, the D&D system of alignments that includes "chaotic good" is more about people would or wouldn't do rather than their personality or attitude and there's lots of complaints about how useful they are in practice. It'd be much easier to design a character to fit neatly into one of those alignments than to retrofit a complex character into one. Also, although I would say Shallan is "chaotic good" and becoming increasingly so I think this only became clear in WoR - she was trying to force herself to be "lawful" (obedient) the last 6 years. But then again, even in WoR and future books I'm pretty sure she would do her best to keep a genuine promise which is much more "lawful good". Few of the characters neatly fit into these alignments.

Kaladin probably feels like "chaotic good" in tWoK but if we consider the way his Oaths are taking him and his attitude towards lighteyes (to him they're basically "minions of evil" until near the end of WoR) and so on he feels like he's really a form of "lawful good" (more like "honourable good") and becoming increasingly so over time.

I'd say that Adolin feels more like "neutral good" - although he has fought against his father trying to impose laws on him, that was more because he preferred how things had been until he saw the flaws in the system. In the general case, I don't think he has much of a problem with following laws and conventions - he doesn't naturally try to work around them. If he was sleeping with the girls he dated (love them and leave them) then that would fit into "chaotic" but he's not. He clearly prefers a fair fight over rigged games, hunting etc, which is more "lawful". His desire to help and protect his family members is very strong, which is more "lawful". Overall, he has quite a mild, relaxed and open attitude, which again feels more "neutral".

Dalinar seems to have been "chaotic neutral" (or even "chaotic evil") when younger and is now firmly into "lawful good". Navani generally seems "lawful good" but will go "chaotic good" when it suits her. Jasnah seems similar - I think she'd like to be "lawful good" but is too pragmatic to let that limit her actions. Renarin I've no idea about. Lift is clearly "chaotic good" but seems to be edging towards "neutral good" recently. Szeth is "lawful neutral".

 

On 21/04/2017 at 3:42 AM, maxal said:

The moment where you know exactly what to do and how to do it, the moment where all doubts vanish... It does happen. I am reluctant to state it had magical origin. My thoughts are the reason she didn't need to draw to retrace her steps is linked to her managing to overcome her block when it comes to her ability: she isn't supposed to need to draw, but she has come to rely on it. In this moment, the need is so great, she ignores the fact she needs support. 

This being said, she did make this drawing with Yalb and his crew escaping the drowning ship (which we know they did). She also made this other drawing I forgot many saw as a form of foreshadowing, so it isn't impossible there is some surgebinding linked ability here.

The other drawing was of Shallash breaking a statue.

 

On 21/04/2017 at 3:42 AM, maxal said:

We do know sprens aren't completely random in choosing their proto-knights. They are primarily looking for candidates among people standing at the forefront of events. Also, they are attracted to already made up Radiants, being more inclined to choose individuals within the vicinity of known Radiants. Hence, the sprens choosing or investigating Elhokar make sense on all front: he is important and his family are Radiants. However, without those incentive, I doubt they would have come near him. This being said, I can't seem to warm up to Elhokar: I dislike his attitude and I feel he might end up being the kind of character who never grows up, who never progresses.

Elhokar has been too much in the shadow of his father then Dalinar to grow into his own person. Similar reason why Brandon decided to remove Jasnah from Shallan - she wouldn't have grown enough otherwise. Maybe if Dalinar is focused more on "the world" and less on Alethkar then Elhokar will have room to grow at last.

 

On 21/04/2017 at 3:42 AM, maxal said:

One of the aspects people dislike out of love triangles is the fact the male characters are too often used as drama generator more than protagonists. In other words, all characters need to have their arc, their purpose and their reason to be engaged in love triangle, if not then it becomes grating. Thus Adolin and Kaladin's feelings need to be explored too even if Shallan remains the main actor within this particular story arc.

Yes, and their interactions don't have to be limited to "romantic" or "potentially romantic" either. I think it's a shame that so many readers latched onto the "potentially romantic" aspect of Shallan and Kaladin down in the chasms that the actual results within WoR were overshadowed, as if the "potentially romantic" aspect was the entire point of that sequence. But the effects within WoR were non-trivial since without Shallan gaining the knowledge from down there, the army wouldn't have been able to get to the center and Urithiru - it was critically important to the entire last section of the book. Also, it's doubtful that Kaladin would have made his breakthrough about lighteyes in general without having met Shallan and getting to understand her (or at least, he would probably have been too late) - again, critically important to the entire last section of the book.

 

On 21/04/2017 at 3:42 AM, maxal said:

I meant his reputation as a Cassanova, a ladies man, a bee killer and whichever other term you might want to use. Everyone takes Adolin for a highly experienced man having conquered all available women, but having rejected each and every one of them because he enjoys the thrill of the chase more than courtship itself. Everyone expects Adolin to have slept with nearly every women or whores if he couldn't get someone else. Tyn called him a flirt.

Yet, when we see him in an actual courtship, his behavior tells another tale. He isn't a Cassanova, he has no idea what he is doing, worst he is terribly shy. He doesn't initiate intimacy which is the reverse behavior you would expect out of a bee killer. It is obvious to me Adolin's reputation is a scam, a lie and completely overdone. Yes, he has courted many women, but he hasn't done anything with them. In shorts, he had 50 first dates and no second ones.

I don't think Adolin or Shallan would particularly disagree with this though. Adolin certainly doesn't believe he's a ladies man and Shallan has noticed that he's actually somewhat shy in practice (but does have wandering eyes).

 

On 21/04/2017 at 3:42 AM, maxal said:

Shallan keeps on expecting Adolin to disinterest himself from her, to go seek elsewhere. She keeps on thinking she has to work to keep him interested in her. Eventually, I expect her to figure out the truth is entirely different. Adolin isn't a flirt, he just can't make relationship work out because he has too much fear in him, fear he might not be the right person, not good enough. Once she realizes this, it might change her entire perspective on him.

I agree on this bit. If Shallan does help Adolin get over his self-destructive issues (with relationships) then she would need to understand the problem(s) and the cause(s). Talking with Renarin to get a good idea with how Adolin typically behaved might be quite useful.

 

On 21/04/2017 at 3:42 AM, maxal said:

I am with you on dumb characters acting dumb just so their story arc could advance. With Kaladin, I will however state it is short-lived as he does move out of it rather quickly. He also has the capacity to improve himself as opposed to keep on sinking lower. This other book I am reading has one character who starts up great, but then falls and falls and falls without ever managing to cope and/or to stand up again. It is frustrating. 

I think the problem with Kaladin in WoR is that it wasn't quite setup enough in tWoK for most readers. There was hints in tWoK that he was unreasonably prejudiced against lighteyes (perhaps the best example being of how he tried to dismiss Adolin helping the prostitute) but since it ended on a positive note with him getting along well with Dalinar (seemingly) it didn't feel like that big a deal. From the first part of WoR, I was pretty sure that Kaladin was going to have problems with his relationship with lighteyes, though I was surprised at how dark he got.

[me2020]

I think at this point it is very likely that shallan and kaladin will end up together,  may be not in the initial book but eventually .  There has been too much fillers around them like the boot incidence and the chasm incidence , which could have been resolved by just having a scout report or something. But Brandon Sanderson is intentionally drawing attention towards this. Further Kaladin during the chasm incidence compares her with tien and there is a big change of heart seen in kaladin after that . On the other hand Adolin relationship is rarely mentioned. And the murder of Sadeas has made it more likely for Adolin to run away or be in prisoned.  

Apart from this there are many other things that point at the same. like they belong to KR classes opposite to each other , their sprens also have an enmity among them . They are complementary to each other , one class believes in honor while other believes in espionage (some thing like Vin and Elend). Their attitudes are also opposite , while one hides his pain behind silence other covers it up with wit. The very idea that they are so different but so similar. One can argue that they are just counter balancing each other but still it would be much interesting to see them together. And I think the fact that kaladin killed shallan's brother may have a role in future books , in the same relationship struggles. 

[maxal]

11 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Yeah, the D&D system of alignments that includes "chaotic good" is more about people would or wouldn't do rather than their personality or attitude and there's lots of complaints about how useful they are in practice. It'd be much easier to design a character to fit neatly into one of those alignments than to retrofit a complex character into one. Also, although I would say Shallan is "chaotic good" and becoming increasingly so I think this only became clear in WoR - she was trying to force herself to be "lawful" (obedient) the last 6 years. But then again, even in WoR and future books I'm pretty sure she would do her best to keep a genuine promise which is much more "lawful good". Few of the characters neatly fit into these alignments.

Kaladin probably feels like "chaotic good" in tWoK but if we consider the way his Oaths are taking him and his attitude towards lighteyes (to him they're basically "minions of evil" until near the end of WoR) and so on he feels like he's really a form of "lawful good" (more like "honourable good") and becoming increasingly so over time.

I'd say that Adolin feels more like "neutral good" - although he has fought against his father trying to impose laws on him, that was more because he preferred how things had been until he saw the flaws in the system. In the general case, I don't think he has much of a problem with following laws and conventions - he doesn't naturally try to work around them. If he was sleeping with the girls he dated (love them and leave them) then that would fit into "chaotic" but he's not. He clearly prefers a fair fight over rigged games, hunting etc, which is more "lawful". His desire to help and protect his family members is very strong, which is more "lawful". Overall, he has quite a mild, relaxed and open attitude, which again feels more "neutral".

Dalinar seems to have been "chaotic neutral" (or even "chaotic evil") when younger and is now firmly into "lawful good". Navani generally seems "lawful good" but will go "chaotic good" when it suits her. Jasnah seems similar - I think she'd like to be "lawful good" but is too pragmatic to let that limit her actions. Renarin I've no idea about. Lift is clearly "chaotic good" but seems to be edging towards "neutral good" recently. Szeth is "lawful neutral".

I went to revisit the definitions of chaotic, lawful and neutral good. 

While I definitely agrees Kaladin is lawful good, I am unsure about Adolin. Sure, he isn't rebellious which makes him prompt to obey his father's rules, but I felt this was more linked to a boy wanting his hero of a father's approval than a real desire to uphold law. Each time push comes to shove, Adolin chose his conscience, chose his own sense of morality and cared for nothing about codes, laws and rules. There are a few examples within the books: him rescuing the prostitute (not something Dalinar would have done), staying in prison for Kaladin's sake (open defiance of a king's decree, not illegal, but certainly rebellious, in his own way), killing Sadeas (unlawful against everything he was taught action he took because his own moral compass told him he had to). Adolin believes in order and is strongly reassure by the stability those orders are giving him, but he doesn't believe they are everything. There are limits he isn't willing to cross, he isn't wiling to close a blind eye on clear abuse just because honor dictates he ought to. That seems close to the opening definition of chaotic good, but then again the neutral good textual description saying those characters would follow law up until they feel the law isn't working anymore, will obey orders up until those orders are forcing to behave badly does fit Adolin, but not all of it. Adolin certainly believes in hard-work, training and experience which seems more aligned with the lawful good, though he doesn't fit into this category, not at all. So huh, I'd say there is a danger into pigeon holing characters into categories. I don't think Adolin truly fits into any.

Shallan is definitely chaotic good and young Dalinar most definitely was a chaotic neutral.

11 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Elhokar has been too much in the shadow of his father then Dalinar to grow into his own person. Similar reason why Brandon decided to remove Jasnah from Shallan - she wouldn't have grown enough otherwise. Maybe if Dalinar is focused more on "the world" and less on Alethkar then Elhokar will have room to grow at last.

Dalinar and Gavilar haven't been standing right next to Elhokar for his whole life: he has had opportunities to grow, but he didn't. Sure, it is certainly hard to have an over-bearing uncle such as Dalinar watching your every move, but it is tenfold harder when you are his eldest son and heir. In other words, whatever Dalinar is to Elhokar, it is much worst for Adolin. Adolin is the one who got the thick of it: all the pressure, all the rules and none of the open love. Elhokar is just spoiled. Sure, he was put into a difficult position and while I do understand where his paranoia comes from, he remains a spoiled selfish coward. And Dalinar remains blinded to Elhokar's wrongs, always crafting excuses for him. Also, if he hasn't grown by now, he is unlikely to grow unless the author gives a large in-depth story arc where he is plunged in a situation which forces him to grow, but he isn't the kind of individual who just grows naturally. He does not have Adolin's inclination towards bettering himself and where self-doubt could force him to move forward, he just wrap himself into arrogance.

Thus, to me, to really grow, it will take much more than 3 days spent in a Herdazian family and much more than one drunken opening to Kaladin in order to happen.

11 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Yes, and their interactions don't have to be limited to "romantic" or "potentially romantic" either. I think it's a shame that so many readers latched onto the "potentially romantic" aspect of Shallan and Kaladin down in the chasms that the actual results within WoR were overshadowed, as if the "potentially romantic" aspect was the entire point of that sequence. But the effects within WoR were non-trivial since without Shallan gaining the knowledge from down there, the army wouldn't have been able to get to the center and Urithiru - it was critically important to the entire last section of the book. Also, it's doubtful that Kaladin would have made his breakthrough about lighteyes in general without having met Shallan and getting to understand her (or at least, he would probably have been too late) - again, critically important to the entire last section of the book.

Readers have latched into the "potentially romantic" realm with Kaladin and Shallan just after the boots scene. It was further fueled down by their argumentation just when she was about to meet Adolin. I recall when I read this chapter, how frustrated I was at seeing Shallan and Kaladin hitting one onto the other right before she was to see Adolin for the first time: I felt the poor kid has no chance. It was also angry having two characters shout at each other automatically meant "potentially romantic" because I did not feel this is how romance should always have to play out. Hence, even before the chasm scenes, there was a romantic potential in between both characters, the chasm just made it more obvious.

Of course, the purpose of the chasm scenes wasn't to develop a romantic ship in between Kaladin and Shallan. The purpose, as you say, was to allow Shallan and Kaladin a chance to interact which led to Shallan drawing the right conclusions as to the pattern to the Shattered Plains and to Kaladin to slightly start to think of lighteyes as people. The hint of romance is just something Brandon planted in there because it makes a nice story arc, because it might be his end ship and because, well, we have been discussing it for the past three years, so I would say: mission accomplished Brandon.

11 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I don't think Adolin or Shallan would particularly disagree with this though. Adolin certainly doesn't believe he's a ladies man and Shallan has noticed that he's actually somewhat shy in practice (but does have wandering eyes).

What Adolin believes is irrelevant, what matter is what others see in him and a flirt it what they see. No doubt in my mind many courtships started by ladies being attracted to his reputation (Janala comes to mind) only to be disappointed all he had to offer were boring dates, out fashioned outfits and no romance whatsoever. The wandering eyes is something I felt was overdone. I mean, Adolin looked at one serving girl, once, and suddenly he has wandering eyes? It isn't as if we have seen him exhibit the behavior on a regular basis, though Amaram did imply Adolin had the habit of eyeing down new girls. 

Shallan did notice Adolin was shy, but she never seem to have connected the dots.

11 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I agree on this bit. If Shallan does help Adolin get over his self-destructive issues (with relationships) then she would need to understand the problem(s) and the cause(s). Talking with Renarin to get a good idea with how Adolin typically behaved might be quite useful.

I am unsure how useful talking with Renarin might end up being. Sure, Adolin says nobody knows him better than Renarin, but then again Renarin is autistic. Typically, autistic individuals have a hard time decoding emotional response and Adolin is filled with them, so how capable is Renarin into decoding why Adolin acts the way he does? Back in WoK, when Adolin angst over his failed courtships, Renarin says perhaps he should treat the girls better. Technically, Renarin is not wrong, but he is still missing the point. So how much does he truly understands about his brother? There is also the fact Adolin admits always trying to put on a very confident face in front of Renarin, so while he claims nobody knows him better than his brother, how much has he been shoveling inside now allowing Renarin to peek at? And how capable is Renarin to notice this considering his disability is one which would hinder his ability to do so?

Thus what would it take for Shallan to finally find the truth about her fiance? How is she to even notice he has self-destructive habits when it comes to courtships if her entire perception is tainted by his reputation as a flirt? People tend to see only what they want to see. 

11 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think the problem with Kaladin in WoR is that it wasn't quite setup enough in tWoK for most readers. There was hints in tWoK that he was unreasonably prejudiced against lighteyes (perhaps the best example being of how he tried to dismiss Adolin helping the prostitute) but since it ended on a positive note with him getting along well with Dalinar (seemingly) it didn't feel like that big a deal. From the first part of WoR, I was pretty sure that Kaladin was going to have problems with his relationship with lighteyes, though I was surprised at how dark he got.

I wouldn't say he is prejudice, not entirely... He is broken. He grew up admiring the lighteyes, he grew up wanting to serve, as a soldier, under one he could see their honor. He put them on a pedestal so when every single one he ended meeting lied to him, betrayed him, caused both his brother and his squad's death, he lost all hope. He dropped further down when he ended up in Sadeas's army and found out the bridgemen were just human fodder. 

He wants to believe lighteyes are honorable, but each example he has had proved him wrong, so when Adolin does exactly what Kaladin always expected lighteyes ought to do, he is skeptical. He doesn't want to fall into the trap of trusting a lighteyes again and yet his eyes are telling this one might be worth it, but he doesn't want to believe it which is why he alternates in between saying: "He is a spoiled princeling" and "But he did save the prostitute...".

For my part, people might not believe it, but Kaladin actually was my favorite character up until about halfway through WoR. He really stop investing myself in him when he was thrown in prison, this is how much I hated this arc. Also, Adolin had really grown into my favorite character at that point in time, but I recall how much I rooted for Kaladin to jump into the 4 on 1 duel. I recall how much angst I had over those duels because I knew it would end up bad. Each time Adolin step into this arena, I had a feeling of doom which was amplified by Sadeas downright telling us he would harm Adolin just so he could hurt Dalinar where it hurts the most. So when the moment did arrive, I was super excited, but what came after deflated me.

3 hours ago, me2020 said:

I think at this point it is very likely that shallan and kaladin will end up together,  may be not in the initial book but eventually .  There has been too much fillers around them like the boot incidence and the chasm incidence , which could have been resolved by just having a scout report or something. But Brandon Sanderson is intentionally drawing attention towards this. Further Kaladin during the chasm incidence compares her with tien and there is a big change of heart seen in kaladin after that . On the other hand Adolin relationship is rarely mentioned. And the murder of Sadeas has made it more likely for Adolin to run away or be in prisoned.  

Adolin's relationship is hardly mentioned? At least, it is existing, the same cannot be said about the potential Kaladin/Shallan. While there has been inklings towards it, nothing indicates this is the end game, not yet. I would also not speculate too hard on Adolin's faith: running away and prison seems unlikely.

 

[kari-no-sugata]

11 hours ago, maxal said:

I went to revisit the definitions of chaotic, lawful and neutral good. 

While I definitely agrees Kaladin is lawful good, I am unsure about Adolin. Sure, he isn't rebellious which makes him prompt to obey his father's rules, but I felt this was more linked to a boy wanting his hero of a father's approval than a real desire to uphold law. Each time push comes to shove, Adolin chose his conscience, chose his own sense of morality and cared for nothing about codes, laws and rules. There are a few examples within the books: him rescuing the prostitute (not something Dalinar would have done), staying in prison for Kaladin's sake (open defiance of a king's decree, not illegal, but certainly rebellious, in his own way), killing Sadeas (unlawful against everything he was taught action he took because his own moral compass told him he had to). Adolin believes in order and is strongly reassure by the stability those orders are giving him, but he doesn't believe they are everything. There are limits he isn't willing to cross, he isn't wiling to close a blind eye on clear abuse just because honor dictates he ought to. That seems close to the opening definition of chaotic good, but then again the neutral good textual description saying those characters would follow law up until they feel the law isn't working anymore, will obey orders up until those orders are forcing to behave badly does fit Adolin, but not all of it. Adolin certainly believes in hard-work, training and experience which seems more aligned with the lawful good, though he doesn't fit into this category, not at all. So huh, I'd say there is a danger into pigeon holing characters into categories. I don't think Adolin truly fits into any.

The following is my interpretation - I'm not an expert on the details of these alignments.

With regards to rescuing the prostitute, a classically "lawful good" character would not have ignored the situation (in fact they would be more likely to intervene than any character). Such a character would likely do one of the following: try to resolve the situation peacefully using a specifically stated authority, try to get the man arrested or possibly have the prostitute arrested too if it was clearly illegal (but make sure she has no serious injuries). If the end result was the man escaping, then a "lawful good" character would never been "tempted" to take up the prostitute's offer of a freebie - he might well have criticised her instead. He would very likely do what Adolin did and escort her to the perimeter but would likely do at least one the following as well: find an alternative job for her or give her enough money that she wouldn't need to rely upon prostitution or maybe give her a long lecture on morality.

For a "chaotic good" character, if they did intervene in that situation at all, they would be more likely to mock the guy, would have been more likely to attack the guy or goad him into an attack if they considered him to be evil, they would be much more likely to take up the offer of a freebie (but wouldn't have intervened with that intention) but would have been unlikely to escort the prostitute to the perimeter.

With regards to Dalinar's rules (or rather the pre-existing rules that Dalinar wanted to enforce), a "lawful good" character would have happily obeyed them and a "chaotic good" character would be likely to ignore them or work around them. Adolin obeys the rules but grumbles about them (which is more "neutral good") until he realises their purpose/value (which is more "lawful good").

With regards to Adolin staying in prison... hmm. There are cases when "lawful good" would do something like that - eg if the person considered himself "honour-bound to return the favour". But Adolin's stance is more like "I choose to do this" so fits more with "chaotic good".

For Sadeas, a "lawful good" definitely wouldn't have made a surprise attack but might have issued a formal challenge (legal or honourable) - and actually would have been obliged to if Sadeas was considered to be "evil". So I agree that this feels more "chaotic good".

Overall, I feel that it's unlike Adolin for him to take things to extremes - he's much more of a "moderate". So I think "neutral good" fits him quite well in general. His more extreme actions come in more extreme circumstances.

 

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Readers have latched into the "potentially romantic" realm with Kaladin and Shallan just after the boots scene. It was further fueled down by their argumentation just when she was about to meet Adolin. I recall when I read this chapter, how frustrated I was at seeing Shallan and Kaladin hitting one onto the other right before she was to see Adolin for the first time: I felt the poor kid has no chance. It was also angry having two characters shout at each other automatically meant "potentially romantic" because I did not feel this is how romance should always have to play out. Hence, even before the chasm scenes, there was a romantic potential in between both characters, the chasm just made it more obvious.

Because Kaladin and Shallan are both major characters who will likely be working along side each other for more or less the same end goals, it's natural for them to have a "relationship" of some kind but it's a shame that the common expectation is that it "should" be a romantic relationship. There's a well trodden trope of characters starting out with a bad relationship where they disagree all the time but overcome their difficulties with time but that's not limited to "romance" either - "buddy movies" often start out like this as well. In the romance version of this trope, there's never a character like Adolin though - either such a character doesn't exist at all or is obviously not desired or the relationship  isn't working. So clearly this isn't the simple version of this trope.

Putting it another way: I feel that Brandon isn't specifically making those scenes romantic but rather relationship building in general (though obviously different readers will have different interpretations)

 

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What Adolin believes is irrelevant, what matter is what others see in him and a flirt it what they see. No doubt in my mind many courtships started by ladies being attracted to his reputation (Janala comes to mind) only to be disappointed all he had to offer were boring dates, out fashioned outfits and no romance whatsoever. The wandering eyes is something I felt was overdone. I mean, Adolin looked at one serving girl, once, and suddenly he has wandering eyes? It isn't as if we have seen him exhibit the behavior on a regular basis, though Amaram did imply Adolin had the habit of eyeing down new girls. 

Shallan did notice Adolin was shy, but she never seem to have connected the dots.

I'd say what "others" think is irrelevant, and what Shallan and Adolin think is important. It doesn't matter what various rumours might say but what rumours Shallan has actually heard and what she thinks of them and the first thing she heard was that he's a "flirt". She considers him to be used to sophisticated women (implying that she doesn't consider herself to be one) but I don't remember her thinking Adolin should be a Casanova character. Adolin doesn't think he's one either.

So I don't think the battle will be getting past the rumours but getting to the bottom of what's actually going on.

With regards to Adolin's wandering eyes, I think we'll just have to take Shallan's word for it. They had quite a few dates off-screen or not from Shallan's point of view. My impression was this behaviour from Adolin was a habit that he doesn't really notice. Or putting it another way - this is a clue to Adolin's self-destructive behaviour that Shallan has already spotted.

 

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I am unsure how useful talking with Renarin might end up being. Sure, Adolin says nobody knows him better than Renarin, but then again Renarin is autistic. Typically, autistic individuals have a hard time decoding emotional response and Adolin is filled with them, so how capable is Renarin into decoding why Adolin acts the way he does? Back in WoK, when Adolin angst over his failed courtships, Renarin says perhaps he should treat the girls better. Technically, Renarin is not wrong, but he is still missing the point. So how much does he truly understands about his brother? There is also the fact Adolin admits always trying to put on a very confident face in front of Renarin, so while he claims nobody knows him better than his brother, how much has he been shoveling inside now allowing Renarin to peek at? And how capable is Renarin to notice this considering his disability is one which would hinder his ability to do so?

I didn't mean to imply that Renarin would have the answers, but he should be a good source of first hand information. I've no idea how useful his personal analysis of the situation would be. Adolin probably wouldn't want to talk about all his past failures with Shallan.

 

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Thus what would it take for Shallan to finally find the truth about her fiance? How is she to even notice he has self-destructive habits when it comes to courtships if her entire perception is tainted by his reputation as a flirt? People tend to see only what they want to see. 

That we saw, Shallan didn't actually hear that much about Adolin in advance with regards to relationships. We've also seen Shallan being quite capable of seeing past expectations since that's exactly what she did with Jasnah.

 

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I wouldn't say he is prejudice, not entirely... He is broken. He grew up admiring the lighteyes, he grew up wanting to serve, as a soldier, under one he could see their honor. He put them on a pedestal so when every single one he ended meeting lied to him, betrayed him, caused both his brother and his squad's death, he lost all hope. He dropped further down when he ended up in Sadeas's army and found out the bridgemen were just human fodder. 

I don't really want to say this but would call it prejudice... or even racist, but that's such a loaded word that I prefer not to use it. He expects the worst of lighteyes and considers them to be as bad as each other. That he doesn't particularly need to get to understand them individually since they're all bad. Slowly from the end of tWoK and through WoR he starts making exceptions and eventually makes a breakthrough to realise that he can't keep on doing what he's been doing. Kaladin certainly has problems with individual lighteyes but he also has problems with them as a group, which is why I use the term "prejudice".

Just to be clear: I don't consider Kaladin to be evil or anything like that, nor do I hate him. I think he has various issues and is slowly getting over them. Just because he can be amazingly heroic that doesn't make him immune to other failings. I think that's what Brandon is aiming for - a hero with real flaws.

 

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He wants to believe lighteyes are honorable, but each example he has had proved him wrong, so when Adolin does exactly what Kaladin always expected lighteyes ought to do, he is skeptical. He doesn't want to fall into the trap of trusting a lighteyes again and yet his eyes are telling this one might be worth it, but he doesn't want to believe it which is why he alternates in between saying: "He is a spoiled princeling" and "But he did save the prostitute...".

For my part, people might not believe it, but Kaladin actually was my favorite character up until about halfway through WoR. He really stop investing myself in him when he was thrown in prison, this is how much I hated this arc. Also, Adolin had really grown into my favorite character at that point in time, but I recall how much I rooted for Kaladin to jump into the 4 on 1 duel. I recall how much angst I had over those duels because I knew it would end up bad. Each time Adolin step into this arena, I had a feeling of doom which was amplified by Sadeas downright telling us he would harm Adolin just so he could hurt Dalinar where it hurts the most. So when the moment did arrive, I was super excited, but what came after deflated me.

There was certain moments in the book regarding Kaladin when I thought "uh-oh, this isn't going to go well", and that particularly moment was certainly the worst.

[kari-no-sugata]

23 hours ago, me2020 said:

I think at this point it is very likely that shallan and kaladin will end up together,  may be not in the initial book but eventually .  There has been too much fillers around them like the boot incidence and the chasm incidence , which could have been resolved by just having a scout report or something. But Brandon Sanderson is intentionally drawing attention towards this. Further Kaladin during the chasm incidence compares her with tien and there is a big change of heart seen in kaladin after that . On the other hand Adolin relationship is rarely mentioned. And the murder of Sadeas has made it more likely for Adolin to run away or be in prisoned.  

Apart from this there are many other things that point at the same. like they belong to KR classes opposite to each other , their sprens also have an enmity among them . They are complementary to each other , one class believes in honor while other believes in espionage (some thing like Vin and Elend). Their attitudes are also opposite , while one hides his pain behind silence other covers it up with wit. The very idea that they are so different but so similar. One can argue that they are just counter balancing each other but still it would be much interesting to see them together. And I think the fact that kaladin killed shallan's brother may have a role in future books , in the same relationship struggles. 

It can be fun to speculate so I don't mind being wrong with predictions, so long as what actually happens is interesting (ie I'd rather have a nice surprise than be right). It's interesting to explore characters in depth - as seen with my long rambling discussions with maxal

The main reason I support Shallan and Adolin is that they're cute and refreshing. They work together and it seems a waste to break it.

I could write a lengthy post about why I disagree with some of your points, but instead I'll raise a general question: since they're both Radiants and assuming they'll continue to survive, then Shallan and Kaladin will inevitably have a relationship of some kind and it will be necessary for them to be able to get along (since if they're fighting with each other then they won't be able to achieve their common goal of saving the world). From that basis, what do you think Brandon would have done differently in WoR if he was always intending for them to have a non-romantic relationship? Or putting it another way, what about their interactions is specifically necessarily for a romantic relationship vs a non-romantic one?

Also, if Brandon was always intending for Shallan and Adolin's relationship to go nowhere, then why devote so many pages to it? What's the goal?

[muco]

Kaladin will be away from shallan for majority of book 3. She will be at Urithru and Kaladin will be a long distance away.

Book 3 at least will have lot of Adolin & Shallan interaction. 

On top of everything Kaladin killed Shallan's brother. Not sure how one can get around that fact. How would romance between them work?

[maxal]

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

The following is my interpretation - I'm not an expert on the details of these alignments.

Well, you seem a better expert than myself  

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

With regards to rescuing the prostitute, a classically "lawful good" character would not have ignored the situation (in fact they would be more likely to intervene than any character). Such a character would likely do one of the following: try to resolve the situation peacefully using a specifically stated authority, try to get the man arrested or possibly have the prostitute arrested too if it was clearly illegal (but make sure she has no serious injuries). If the end result was the man escaping, then a "lawful good" character would never been "tempted" to take up the prostitute's offer of a freebie - he might well have criticised her instead. He would very likely do what Adolin did and escort her to the perimeter but would likely do at least one the following as well: find an alternative job for her or give her enough money that she wouldn't need to rely upon prostitution or maybe give her a long lecture on morality.

For a "chaotic good" character, if they did intervene in that situation at all, they would be more likely to mock the guy, would have been more likely to attack the guy or goad him into an attack if they considered him to be evil, they would be much more likely to take up the offer of a freebie (but wouldn't have intervened with that intention) but would have been unlikely to escort the prostitute to the perimeter.

With regards to Dalinar's rules (or rather the pre-existing rules that Dalinar wanted to enforce), a "lawful good" character would have happily obeyed them and a "chaotic good" character would be likely to ignore them or work around them. Adolin obeys the rules but grumbles about them (which is more "neutral good") until he realises their purpose/value (which is more "lawful good").

With regards to Adolin staying in prison... hmm. There are cases when "lawful good" would do something like that - eg if the person considered himself "honour-bound to return the favour". But Adolin's stance is more like "I choose to do this" so fits more with "chaotic good".

For Sadeas, a "lawful good" definitely wouldn't have made a surprise attack but might have issued a formal challenge (legal or honourable) - and actually would have been obliged to if Sadeas was considered to be "evil". So I agree that this feels more "chaotic good".

Overall, I feel that it's unlike Adolin for him to take things to extremes - he's much more of a "moderate". So I think "neutral good" fits him quite well in general. His more extreme actions come in more extreme circumstances..

Based on your analysis, I would say Adolin doesn't exactly fit within either the lawful nor the chaotic good.

Within the prostitute example, Adolin doesn't use pure lawful strategy: he doesn't interject the culprit from a lawful viewpoint, but from a moral standpoint. I think it might also be the man molesting the prostitute wasn't breaking any law, it might be the pure lawful character wouldn't have cause to stop the event. The question should then be, which character type would interject to prevent an action which isn't illegal, but morally wrong? This is the essence of Adolin's character: morality. Do what your heart tells you is right. My understanding is Adolin rescued the prostitute not because the men were unlawful and acting outside the law, but because he felt it was wrong to take advantage of an individual unable to defend herself. He wouldn't accept her advances, even if he is shy and inexperienced, because he would be taking advantage of someone feeling she owed him. He would be in a position of power and this, this is exactly what Adolin seems to be against.

As for rules, Adolin obeys rules because he isn't rebellious enough to ignore them and while he does grow into seeing their use, he will also not shy from breaking them if he feels they become immoral. He doesn't stay in prison because he felt he owed Kaladin, even if he does, but because he felt it was wrong, just plain wrong. To Adolin, it wasn't a debt of honor, it was just morally wrong to imprison Kaladin after such an act of bravery. 

The same could be said about killing Sadeas, it wasn't about law nor honor, but about what is right, about morality. 

It is thus hard to fit him into any group as Adolin's driving force is his own sense of morality. He can go to the extremes, but only when griped with extreme emotions triggered by extreme situations: he is highly vulnerable to them.

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Because Kaladin and Shallan are both major characters who will likely be working along side each other for more or less the same end goals, it's natural for them to have a "relationship" of some kind but it's a shame that the common expectation is that it "should" be a romantic relationship. There's a well trodden trope of characters starting out with a bad relationship where they disagree all the time but overcome their difficulties with time but that's not limited to "romance" either - "buddy movies" often start out like this as well. In the romance version of this trope, there's never a character like Adolin though - either such a character doesn't exist at all or is obviously not desired or the relationship  isn't working. So clearly this isn't the simple version of this trope.

Putting it another way: I feel that Brandon isn't specifically making those scenes romantic but rather relationship building in general (though obviously different readers will have different interpretations)

I think we should keep in mind Brandon didn't intend for Shallan to be engaged to Adolin, she was supposed to be engaged to "someone else". I would also point out, prior to WoR's release, right after Brandon released the early chapters when the engagement of Shallan to Adolin was announced, the majority of readers felt it wouldn't work. Most people were adamantly convinced Shallan would never be interested into "dumb", "simple-minded" Adolin: all felt she would obviously prefer "smarter" and more "bookish" Renarin. Thus, to make the Shallan/Adolin ship work, to make readers actually believe in it, to make it feel refreshing, Brandon had a lot more work to do.

On the reverse, in order to make readers believe into a potential Kaladin/Shallan ship, all Brandon had to do is basically have the two characters meet and shout at each other. He knew the rules of narrative would have it most readers would instinctively believe the two main protagonists would hook up together, especially if they start up bad. You are right in saying it is a well trodden trope, so well trodden the second two characters appear to hate each other, people will ship them.

Hence, Kaladin/Shallan is free drama, free conflict: they don't require much page time, they don't require anything special: they will just create it by the mere force of readers expectations.

Thus, Adolin/Shallan are getting more page time because Brandon has to make us believe they can work which most readers weren't ready to believe from the get go. Why? Well, he is obviously building up something, but what precisely isn't known. Overall, Brandon likes for his relationship to have to work before becoming harmonious, thus he is making Adolin and Shallan work for each other and it isn't obvious they are even the endgame. Even if they are, he won't make it easy for those two kids to fall in love. In comparison, Kaladin and Shallan require very little work: all readers have pinned them as the ultimate ship because they were both broken, they were both Radiants, people take them as both being very smart, Brandon has almost nothing to write to make us believe in them.

I agree characters like Adolin never exists, if he does he is obviously the wrong choice: either he is dumb or boring or evil. He never is a... contender. 

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'd say what "others" think is irrelevant, and what Shallan and Adolin think is important. It doesn't matter what various rumours might say but what rumours Shallan has actually heard and what she thinks of them and the first thing she heard was that he's a "flirt". She considers him to be used to sophisticated women (implying that she doesn't consider herself to be one) but I don't remember her thinking Adolin should be a Casanova character. Adolin doesn't think he's one either.

So I don't think the battle will be getting past the rumours but getting to the bottom of what's actually going on.

With regards to Adolin's wandering eyes, I think we'll just have to take Shallan's word for it. They had quite a few dates off-screen or not from Shallan's point of view. My impression was this behaviour from Adolin was a habit that he doesn't really notice. Or putting it another way - this is a clue to Adolin's self-destructive behaviour that Shallan has already spotted.

Yes but Shallan is basing her assessment of Adolin on those rumors, she expects him to behave of those rumors are telling her he would behave. When he ogles this one waitress, she expects the behavior will repeat itself, she expects it is nefarious, she expects the worst put of it and she expects it because everyone has warned Adolin was impossible to get your hands on. 

I certainly think Shallan expects Adolin to start losing interest in her if she doesn't become irresistible. She does expect him to be a Cassanova, but she might not know all which entails out of such characters. She does seem to think his behavior lacks forwardness which I think she perhaps interprets as lack of interest. I have no idea what it will take for Shallan to see through it all. Now she does not need him anymore, she might just let him go without even thinking twice about it.

I do agree Adolin is probably not even aware of his own behavior, he is so set-up on destroying his relationship, he will spontaneously adopt nefarious behaviors without even noticing it. Shallan has seen the behavior, but does she know it is self-destructive? What will it take for her to see it?

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I didn't mean to imply that Renarin would have the answers, but he should be a good source of first hand information. I've no idea how useful his personal analysis of the situation would be. Adolin probably wouldn't want to talk about all his past failures with Shallan.

Fair enough. I think Renarin probably noticed more about Adolin than Adolin was willing to allow him to notice. He might not have gotten to the bottom of his relationship issues, but he might have noticed the horse thing... maybe. I doubt Adolin wants to truly open-up to anybody about his past relationships, but I feel he will need to if he is to ever more past it.

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

That we saw, Shallan didn't actually hear that much about Adolin in advance with regards to relationships. We've also seen Shallan being quite capable of seeing past expectations since that's exactly what she did with Jasnah.

I am not doubting her abilities to ever see past Adolin's facade, but I am doubting he desire to do so. Can she ever be invested enough in him to do it or is she to feel it is too much trouble? Is she going to bother or will she just fall in love with Kaladin and forget all about Adolin?

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I don't really want to say this but would call it prejudice... or even racist, but that's such a loaded word that I prefer not to use it. He expects the worst of lighteyes and considers them to be as bad as each other. That he doesn't particularly need to get to understand them individually since they're all bad. Slowly from the end of tWoK and through WoR he starts making exceptions and eventually makes a breakthrough to realise that he can't keep on doing what he's been doing. Kaladin certainly has problems with individual lighteyes but he also has problems with them as a group, which is why I use the term "prejudice".

Just to be clear: I don't consider Kaladin to be evil or anything like that, nor do I hate him. I think he has various issues and is slowly getting over them. Just because he can be amazingly heroic that doesn't make him immune to other failings. I think that's what Brandon is aiming for - a hero with real flaws.

But Kaladin goes through extremes... He starts up by seeing all lighteyes as honorable individuals, but after each one he meets turn out being the opposite, he switch his thoughts into thinking they all are scumbags. Yes, in a way, it is prejudice, but it is one born out of some distorted habits to see all members of a class as identical clones of each other. Kaladin does have issues judging people as individuals, he does see them as members of a group and I suspect he will perhaps have the same issues with the Radiants.

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

There was certain moments in the book regarding Kaladin when I thought "uh-oh, this isn't going to go well", and that particularly moment was certainly the worst.

The prison scene was such a step back, I so did not want to read it, I grew very frustrated. 

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It can be fun to speculate so I don't mind being wrong with predictions, so long as what actually happens is interesting (ie I'd rather have a nice surprise than be right). It's interesting to explore characters in depth - as seen with my long rambling discussions with maxal

The main reason I support Shallan and Adolin is that they're cute and refreshing. They work together and it seems a waste to break it.

I could write a lengthy post about why I disagree with some of your points, but instead I'll raise a general question: since they're both Radiants and assuming they'll continue to survive, then Shallan and Kaladin will inevitably have a relationship of some kind and it will be necessary for them to be able to get along (since if they're fighting with each other then they won't be able to achieve their common goal of saving the world). From that basis, what do you think Brandon would have done differently in WoR if he was always intending for them to have a non-romantic relationship? Or putting it another way, what about their interactions is specifically necessarily for a romantic relationship vs a non-romantic one?

Also, if Brandon was always intending for Shallan and Adolin's relationship to go nowhere, then why devote so many pages to it? What's the goal?

Great questions, let's see what others have to say on them. I'll answer later.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, muco said:

Kaladin will be away from shallan for majority of book 3. She will be at Urithru and Kaladin will be a long distance away.

Book 3 at least will have lot of Adolin & Shallan interaction. 

On top of everything Kaladin killed Shallan's brother. Not sure how one can get around that fact. How would romance between them work?

Maybe you are a beta reader, but we don't know for how long Kaladin will stay in Alethkar. We already know that, [Oathbringer Chapter 1 spoiler]

Spoiler

Kaladin was not fast enough and Hearthstone was already hit by the Everstorm. Though we don't know if he goes back to Urithiru or hurries for Kholinar.

WoB has it, that we will see Shallan / Kaladin moments.

Also, I'm not quite convinced, that Helaran is truly dead.

[Elena]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Also, I'm not quite convinced, that Helaran is truly dead.

Amaram's people talked about checking in the body in the last Kaladin flashback chapter, even in details (the face was ruined, etc.) which probably means his body was disposed of right after. I know there's a theory going around that Helaran was a surgebinder, but even if he was it seems overly difficult for him to fake a death while leaving behind a body.

(In vaguely related topic I am really looking forward to the particular Shallan/Kaladin scene where she realizes it was him, not Amaram, who killed Helaran.)

 

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Elena said:

Amaram's people talked about checking in the body in the last Kaladin flashback chapter, even in details (the face was ruined, etc.) which probably means his body was disposed of right after. I know there's a theory going around that Helaran was a surgebinder, but even if he was it seems overly difficult for him to fake a death while leaving behind a body.

 

Ah yes, but the dead Shardbearer killed by Kaladin had a very disfigured face after Kaladin's killing blow. It would be very hard to identify him as Helaran. It could have been practically any Veden Shardbearer bearing Helaran's blade. Plus, if Helaran was indeed a Surgebinder, he would have had to dispose of his Shardblade, because of the screams bonded humans hear, when touching dead spren, and would probably have no reluctance in doing so, because he has another Shardblade. His spren. Helaran is a mystery for sure.

50 minutes ago, Elena said:

(In vaguely related topic I am really looking forward to the particular Shallan/Kaladin scene where she realizes it was him, not Amaram, who killed Helaran.)

Yes, I am very intrigued how Shallan will react.

Edited April 24, 2017 by SLNC

[Elena]

18 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Ah yes, but the dead Shardbearer killed by Kaladin has a very disfigured face after Kaladin's killing blow. It would be very hard to identify Helaran. It could have been practically any Veden Shardbearer bearing Helaran's blade. Plus, if Helaran was indeed a Surgebinder, he would have had to dispose of his Shardblade, because of the screams bonded humans hear, when touching dead spren, and would probably have no reluctance in doing so, because he has another Shardblade. His spren. Helaran is a mystery for sure.

Ah, got it. Is there a recent topic on Helaran? Because I have Things to say about this, and we could move the conversation there.

Anyway my stance on the post is that I really, really love Kaladin/Shallan because their interactions were gold, but I'd take them even as bickering friends if Brandon goes that way, because I just want to see them have scenes together. Shallan/Adolin is also good - not particularly entertaining, but cute - and I find the relationship between Adolin and Kaladin really well done in its development, so I just can't help seeing endless potential in this 'love triangle' thing whatever side I look at it from. My only issue with the trope is that often character development is sacrificed in favour of the romantic plot, but I have high hopes that in this case whatever romance happen will serve to enhance the characters instead.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Elena said:

Ah, got it. Is there a recent topic on Helaran? Because I have Things to say about this, and we could move the conversation there.

That's the most recent one.

13 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It can be fun to speculate so I don't mind being wrong with predictions, so long as what actually happens is interesting (ie I'd rather have a nice surprise than be right). It's interesting to explore characters in depth - as seen with my long rambling discussions with maxal

The main reason I support Shallan and Adolin is that they're cute and refreshing. They work together and it seems a waste to break it.

I could write a lengthy post about why I disagree with some of your points, but instead I'll raise a general question: since they're both Radiants and assuming they'll continue to survive, then Shallan and Kaladin will inevitably have a relationship of some kind and it will be necessary for them to be able to get along (since if they're fighting with each other then they won't be able to achieve their common goal of saving the world). From that basis, what do you think Brandon would have done differently in WoR if he was always intending for them to have a non-romantic relationship? Or putting it another way, what about their interactions is specifically necessarily for a romantic relationship vs a non-romantic one?

Also, if Brandon was always intending for Shallan and Adolin's relationship to go nowhere, then why devote so many pages to it? What's the goal?

And I find Shallan and Adolin cringeworthy most of the time, though the cuteness factor is there at certain times. It's a matter of perspective after all. Just look at the scene, where Shallan asks Adolin, how he goes about relieving himself while in Shardplate. While reading it, I really wasn't sure if Brandon included it for comedic effect or as a genuine bonding experience between Shallan and Adolin. And don't get me started on how Adolin tries to impress Shallan through his rather lacking scholastic prowess. They are just trying too hard. Yes, they click and there is a certain affection, but they don't just let it flow. I think at this point, they could just as easily still be platonic friends. It feels like Adolin is like, "Oh geez, I have to find a suitable bride. Better make this work. Thanks, cousin Jasnah."

Look, I like Adolin and I like Shallan - on their own. I can't stand them together. I don't know what it is. They're cute and all, but refreshing? Maybe I'm just a bitter person, but I find them rather annoying to be honest. True, they are early in their relationship, but I can't get over the superficiality of their current relationship and how they seem to be completely okay with it. They are acting like those love birdies, that you always see in spring, when you are walking down the street and they suddenly have this irresistible urge to kiss eachother, while you almost walk into them, because they had to - of course - kiss in the middle of the street. And then they break up a few weeks later. Now, I know, that they don't do that, but my annoyance level is up there. Why? I still can't put my finger on it, but I'm afraid I'll start to skim their passages or skip them altogether, if they keep this up. Seriously, the forced kisses and stuff are getting on my nerves, it's funny how Shallan always kisses Adolin, but never comes around to acknowledge her apparent love for him, or is it even love? Sorry for my rant and I hope I have hurt no one, because of my rather harsh opinion of Adolin/Shallan.

Like @Elena said, I loved the interactions between Kaladin and Shallan and I'd hate for them to stop, because of an infatuation between Adolin and Shallan or jealousy on Adolins or Kaladins side.

Maybe Brandon should have left out Kaladin's realisation, about how he wasn't so close to a woman since Tarah, while they were hiding out in the small crevice. Or should have left out the part, where Kaladin secretly wishes to be noticed by Shallan and how Shallan thinks about Kaladin, while in conversation with her current boyfriend.

Why does Brandon devote so many pages to it? Simple, because he can. He's writing a 10 book series with each volume at about 1000 pages or more. What is his goal? I really don't know. I'm just as confused right now.

[Djarskublar]

That's not even close to the most recent topic on Helaran. There have been at least two, maybe three. This is the most recent topic: (warning, it's in cosmere theories, so spoiler potential is present)

 

[kari-no-sugata]

14 hours ago, Elena said:

Anyway my stance on the post is that I really, really love Kaladin/Shallan because their interactions were gold, but I'd take them even as bickering friends if Brandon goes that way, because I just want to see them have scenes together.

I enjoyed their interactions too and I don't think we'd be able to get the same kind of interactions if they became a couple (though obviously there would be new interactions). I remember some readers wondering if they might develop a sort of sibling relationship. It took me a while to wrap my head around that but I could imagine them being close enough to take pot shots at each other without it damaging their relationship but also having an underlying tone of respect or similar.

 

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Shallan/Adolin is also good - not particularly entertaining, but cute - and I find the relationship between Adolin and Kaladin really well done in its development, so I just can't help seeing endless potential in this 'love triangle' thing whatever side I look at it from.

Yeah, I enjoyed Shallan and Adolin together, Shallan and Kaladin together and also Adolin and Kaladin together. It would be nice to see those develop further, which would be unlikely to happen if Shallan and Adolin fell apart.

 

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My only issue with the trope is that often character development is sacrificed in favour of the romantic plot, but I have high hopes that in this case whatever romance happen will serve to enhance the characters instead.

Yep, that is a big problem with the trope. It's much nicer to have a real sense of progress.

Edited April 24, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[maxal]

14 hours ago, SLNC said:

They're cute and all, but refreshing? I really don't know. I'm just as confused right now.

I think one of the reason why many readers see Adolin/Shallan as refreshing is because they are the unlikely implausible ship, the one which trumps all readers expectations. I once was curious enough to go back a read the discussion occurring prior to the release of WoR, wanting to know what people expected out of the book before reading it. Since I am a character focus reader I obviously dig into the shipping discussion of the time and what was not my surprise to find out the leading ship was... Renarin/Shallan. A few hoped for Kaladin/Shallan, but Adolin/Shallan? It was virtually non-existent. Even after it was announced Shallan would be engaged to Adolin, all posters agreed Shallan would never, ever be interested in Adolin.

On paper, they have nothing in common which has made nearly all readers not think they could ever make it.

In comparison, Renarin and Shallan both are on the intellectual side and many felt his introverted nature would suit Shallan better. Kaladin and Shallan are both broken, they are both Radiants and they both like quick talk. 

What do Adolin and Shallan have to sustain themselves? On paper, not much, but they might be the two characters who will be able to work on a common project, on a future. More importantly however is they surprised us all by... working.

That's what's refreshing about them: they are unexpected and readers love to be surprised from times to times. Adolin is this breath of fresh air because he comes in where you don't expect him to, he shows surprising layers where you never though to find them and he turned being a contender when no one ever gave him a chance.