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Kaladin and Shallan


Xaklys

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On 4/7/2017 at 6:02 PM, DeployParachute said:

Likely, I think that at worst Syl would find Pattern boring, or not fun (because he wouldn't give in to her taunts and pranks, much like Rock).

I think it's more fundamental than that; Syl (like all honorspren) is extremely focused on doing what's right and keeping one's word, while Pattern (like all cryptics) enjoys lies (even if his definition of "lies" is not what humans usually mean by the term).  That, more than "boring" is probably where the conflict comes from.

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20 hours ago, Figberts said:

Agreed. Shallan cannot afford to change the situation. what better motivation that "if you don't do this, everybody left of your family will likely die in a slave mine". Things don't go well for lords who don't pay their debts.

Right now from Dalinar's point of view, Shallan is a rare and precious resource, since she's an experienced proto Radiant and also has been researching into them. Regardless of her relationship with his son, if Shallan asks Dalinar for help with something reasonable I'd be surprised if he didn't support her. He agreed with Jasnah's reasons for wanting to tie Shallan to his family as well.

So, depending on how Dalinar reacts to Adolin killing Sadeas, he might well revoke the causal between Shallan and Adolin... and instead offer one between Shallan and Renarin instead. While Shallan could probably understand the logic of that I doubt she'd be happy. She'd not exactly fond of Dalinar in the first place - she has a problem with "authority figures" (says Brandon).

Hmm, here's an idea: maybe Shallan will decide that it's risky to rely on others and that it's good to have your own "power base". She currently has some loyal soldiers and a certain amount of prestige. She doesn't yet have true political power or major assets or an independent source of income yet though.

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1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Right now from Dalinar's point of view, Shallan is a rare and precious resource, since she's an experienced proto Radiant and also has been researching into them. Regardless of her relationship with his son, if Shallan asks Dalinar for help with something reasonable I'd be surprised if he didn't support her. He agreed with Jasnah's reasons for wanting to tie Shallan to his family as well.

Am I the only one who thinks it ironic Dalinar completely refrained from investing any time nor effort into Adolin's love life on the pretense the boy ought to be allowed to chose his future wife only to grow incredibly excited over his son marrying a knight Radiant? Dalinar promised he wouldn't force Adolin into any union, but he seems to have grown rather fond of this one...

Oathbringer spoiler

Spoiler

Just like Gavilar who promised Dalinar he wouldn't force him to marry anyone up until beautiful Evi and her brother walks into their warcamp asking for protection in exchange for a Shardplate.... Good intentions, it seems, have a price.

 

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

So, depending on how Dalinar reacts to Adolin killing Sadeas, he might well revoke the causal between Shallan and Adolin... and instead offer one between Shallan and Renarin instead. While Shallan could probably understand the logic of that I doubt she'd be happy. She'd not exactly fond of Dalinar in the first place - she has a problem with "authority figures" (says Brandon).

Hmm, here's an idea: maybe Shallan will decide that it's risky to rely on others and that it's good to have your own "power base". She currently has some loyal soldiers and a certain amount of prestige. She doesn't yet have true political power or major assets or an independent source of income yet though.

I think it would be very interesting if Dalinar were to enforce a Shallan/Renarin pairing... not that I think he has any authority over imposing Shallan to anyone, but the idea might lead to interesting character development, especially for Adolin if he is forced to witness it.

I think it likely Shallan will try to tear herself away from the grasp of the Kholin household. She will not bow to Dalinar just because he says so. Will she openly oppose him in his treatment of Adolin, once he finds the truth? Or will she decide the house isn't worth her time afterwards and invest herself into her "other activities"? I think I read somewhere our perception of Shallan might change after Oathbringer...

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3 minutes ago, maxal said:

I think it likely Shallan will try to tear herself away from the grasp of the Kholin household. She will not bow to Dalinar just because he says so. Will she openly oppose him in his treatment of Adolin, once he finds the truth? Or will she decide the house isn't worth her time afterwards and invest herself into her "other activities"? I think I read somewhere our perception of Shallan might change after Oathbringer...

Shallan was pretty adamant about not being tied to anyone while on the Shattered Plains (so adamant that she took an, in my opinion, stupid risk to evade it). I can defenitely see how she would like to continue being unattached to someone, and work on her own. 

At the same time, she does like Adolin, and if she is associated with him, she might have a hard time to stay away from being part of the Kholin family. And also, Dalinar seems to be chosen as the leader of the Radiants, so Shallan might end up bowing to him after all. 

Of course, Shallan might question Dalinars leadership, if she feels that he makes bad decisions. I would guess that she obeys him as long as it doesnt interfere with her own will or her own goals.

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15 hours ago, maxal said:

Am I the only one who thinks it ironic Dalinar completely refrained from investing any time nor effort into Adolin's love life on the pretense the boy ought to be allowed to chose his future wife only to grow incredibly excited over his son marrying a knight Radiant? Dalinar promised he wouldn't force Adolin into any union, but he seems to have grown rather fond of this one...

Well, it was just a comment or two in WoR though really.

 

15 hours ago, maxal said:

I think it would be very interesting if Dalinar were to enforce a Shallan/Renarin pairing... not that I think he has any authority over imposing Shallan to anyone, but the idea might lead to interesting character development, especially for Adolin if he is forced to witness it.

I think it likely Shallan will try to tear herself away from the grasp of the Kholin household. She will not bow to Dalinar just because he says so. Will she openly oppose him in his treatment of Adolin, once he finds the truth? Or will she decide the house isn't worth her time afterwards and invest herself into her "other activities"? I think I read somewhere our perception of Shallan might change after Oathbringer...

Shallan does bluntly tell Dalinar he has no authority over her in WoR, and I'm not expecting her to suddenly bow to his wishes now that he's a Bondsmith. So yeah, if she's not happy with Dalinar's actions/proposals she'll probably tell him so. Just to be clear, this is not to say anything against Renarin - I wouldn't be surprised if she can get along with him fine once she gets to know him (something Shallan does with nearly everyone).

I'm not sure about Shallan breaking away from the Kholins in general, but she might find herself struggling to accept Dalinar himself. It's not like Dalinar himself has finished his character development and if anything, Shallan giving him some constructive criticism would probably be helpful for his character development. I think Shallan would be happy to help Dalinar with researching the past in order to prepare for the future and with trying to save the world in general, but might well disagree with priorities and tactics / implementation details. In general, the Knights Radiants seem likely to have quite distinct personalities so we should expect a certain amount of disagreement between them anyway.

Our perception of Shallan changed quite a lot in WoR, and to some degree we could say that about all the major characters, and with everything that's going on I'm not surprised she'd change again in Oathbringer. Hopefully she changes in a good way...

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I am really interested in how Shallan develops. I really only see 2 important possibilities, based on how WoR ended. She either aligns herself with the Ghostbloods, or she pretends to.

I don't think her relationships with the other main characters will be as important. My bet is that she separates herself from them somewhat to protect them. She learned that lesson from the carriage driver.

I guess that depends on how long it takes for Jasnah to meet with them. The timing of her getting back will make a big impact. If she gets back pretty early, I expect her to be key to informing the characters of what's really going on. If she is late, they will get the info they need from either Dalinar or Renarin, depending on how things go and how things work.

The defining points of the book I expect are how they deal with Kholinar and how they interact with each other in the Radiant context. As was the case in the last two books, I expect some romance, but really not much.

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3 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

I am really interested in how Shallan develops. I really only see 2 important possibilities, based on how WoR ended. She either aligns herself with the Ghostbloods, or she pretends to.

I don't think her relationships with the other main characters will be as important. My bet is that she separates herself from them somewhat to protect them. She learned that lesson from the carriage driver.

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. In the case with the carriage driver, Shallan feels bad about it because the poor guy was just doing his job and Shallan's carelessness (a side effect of her being an "outsider" at the time) killed him. However, the Ghostbloods now consider Shallan to be a member and would be expecting her to do things that benefit them. Distancing herself from the Kholins would not be what they want at all, I'm sure. Though she might put some emotional distance between them and be cautious, so it's also possible that Dalinar potentially ending the causal between her and Adolin could magnify that.

With regards to the Ghostbloods in general, I'm quite surprised how many readers think Shallan would genuinely join the Ghostbloods (in heart and soul). I really don't see it with how things end in WoR. Shallan is not a violent or aggressive person and if anything goes out of her way to avoid killing anyone and everyone. She even felt sorry for the chasmfiend! Yet, when she meets Mraize at the end of WoR she is uniquely aggressive, even threatening to kill him. Maybe she's somehow developing a violent streak but I think it's because she fundamentally does not like how the Ghostbloods operate. Until then she'd only ever shown any hints of violence as a last resort.

Unless guilt drives her crazy I'd be quite surprised if she changed her opinion. I expect that for a while she'll grit her teeth and make a show of going along with their demands. She might even betray her real allies more than she realises but in the end I would not be surprised to see her kill the Ghostbloods. She might even sacrifice her brothers.

Another possibility is that the Ghostbloods tempt her with some offworlder information. Maybe hinting that they have solutions to the bigger problems. She might even take the bait for a while but I'd still be surprised if she decides they're people she wants to hang around with.

 

3 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

I guess that depends on how long it takes for Jasnah to meet with them. The timing of her getting back will make a big impact. If she gets back pretty early, I expect her to be key to informing the characters of what's really going on. If she is late, they will get the info they need from either Dalinar or Renarin, depending on how things go and how things work.

The defining points of the book I expect are how they deal with Kholinar and how they interact with each other in the Radiant context. As was the case in the last two books, I expect some romance, but really not much.

Certainly the timing of Jasnah's return could make a big different to a large number of events.

I'm not sure how central Kholinar will be to the book overall. I think we will see quite a bit of them dealing with other countries and maybe even visiting them. But certainly Dalinar is not going to sit around and let Kholinar implode.

The romance in WoR was great fun. It tied nicely into the plot and character development and was enjoyable to read by itself. I suspect we won't get something in the next book that's roughly similar but I hope we can get some nice romantic moments still.

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3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. In the case with the carriage driver, Shallan feels bad about it because the poor guy was just doing his job and Shallan's carelessness (a side effect of her being an "outsider" at the time) killed him. However, the Ghostbloods now consider Shallan to be a member and would be expecting her to do things that benefit them. Distancing herself from the Kholins would not be what they want at all, I'm sure. Though she might put some emotional distance between them and be cautious, so it's also possible that Dalinar potentially ending the causal between her and Adolin could magnify that.

With regards to the Ghostbloods in general, I'm quite surprised how many readers think Shallan would genuinely join the Ghostbloods (in heart and soul). I really don't see it with how things end in WoR. Shallan is not a violent or aggressive person and if anything goes out of her way to avoid killing anyone and everyone. She even felt sorry for the chasmfiend! Yet, when she meets Mraize at the end of WoR she is uniquely aggressive, even threatening to kill him. Maybe she's somehow developing a violent streak but I think it's because she fundamentally does not like how the Ghostbloods operate. Until then she'd only ever shown any hints of violence as a last resort.

Unless guilt drives her crazy I'd be quite surprised if she changed her opinion. I expect that for a while she'll grit her teeth and make a show of going along with their demands. She might even betray her real allies more than she realises but in the end I would not be surprised to see her kill the Ghostbloods. She might even sacrifice her brothers.

Another possibility is that the Ghostbloods tempt her with some offworlder information. Maybe hinting that they have solutions to the bigger problems. She might even take the bait for a while but I'd still be surprised if she decides they're people she wants to hang around with.

I think many readers view Shallan as a morally grey character willing to go at all ends if desperate enough to safe-keep his family. She has genuinely gone beyond what one would agree is reasonable to craft a better future for her brothers: she tried to find them interests to steer them away from their bad habits (Odium influence perhaps?), she killed her father to protect them, she agreed to con Jasnah Kholin, ruin her chance at a wonderful inestimable scholarship just so she could get a soulcaster hoping it would enough to keep her house debtors at bay. Later on, when she manages to win Jasnah's trust, she still agrees to marry Adolin for the advantages an union with him would bring to her family. In other words, Shallan has devoted her very young life to improve her brothers life.

It is thus, to many readers, her dedication towards this one goal might ultimately lead to her side-stepping and, yes perhaps aligning herself with the Ghostbloods if she sees it as the best solution for her family. I don't think she likes them nor that she trusts them: clearly they are manipulating her, but it might also be what she perceived as her duty might not align with Dalinar's goals.

I do think our characters allegiances will be challenged within the next book. Dalinar will have to figure out how far he is willing to go to secure what he perceives as unity. He once said he would see everyone one of his soldiers dead if it meant preventing the Desolation: I can see where such ruthlessness might go astray. He might have to chose in between his sons, he might have to chose between Adolin and his oaths, he might have to chose if he should keep on blindly supporting Elhokar. Shallan, on her side, might have to choose in between her family and her duty as a Radiant. She might have to realize she can't help her brothers if they won't help themselves first. She might have to chose in between whom she loves and what her goals might truly be.

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Certainly the timing of Jasnah's return could make a big different to a large number of events.

I'm not sure how central Kholinar will be to the book overall. I think we will see quite a bit of them dealing with other countries and maybe even visiting them. But certainly Dalinar is not going to sit around and let Kholinar implode.

The romance in WoR was great fun. It tied nicely into the plot and character development and was enjoyable to read by itself. I suspect we won't get something in the next book that's roughly similar but I hope we can get some nice romantic moments still.

For my part, I am expecting more romance within Oathbringer :ph34r: not less. It won't be a major focus, but I do expect the Adolin/Shallan relationship to be further explored, probably broken down, but ultimately, yeah, there will be romance in the book. 

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6 hours ago, maxal said:

I think many readers view Shallan as a morally grey character willing to go at all ends if desperate enough to safe-keep his family. She has genuinely gone beyond what one would agree is reasonable to craft a better future for her brothers: she tried to find them interests to steer them away from their bad habits (Odium influence perhaps?), she killed her father to protect them, she agreed to con Jasnah Kholin, ruin her chance at a wonderful inestimable scholarship just so she could get a soulcaster hoping it would enough to keep her house debtors at bay. Later on, when she manages to win Jasnah's trust, she still agrees to marry Adolin for the advantages an union with him would bring to her family. In other words, Shallan has devoted her very young life to improve her brothers life.

It is thus, to many readers, her dedication towards this one goal might ultimately lead to her side-stepping and, yes perhaps aligning herself with the Ghostbloods if she sees it as the best solution for her family. I don't think she likes them nor that she trusts them: clearly they are manipulating her, but it might also be what she perceived as her duty might not align with Dalinar's goals.

At the end of tWoK and the start of WoR, Shallan has effectively abandoned her brothers to help Jasnah. She specifically states this. Not that she has any specific plan that would save her brothers but she is choosing to focus on helping Jasnah save the world rather than trying to come up with a solution for her brothers. Fortunately, Jasnah lends a hand. So based on the choices Shallan made there, I think we already have evidence that Shallan won't do anything to save her brothers, despite the extremes she's capable of going to. She'll certainly risk her own life and even her own happiness if necessary, but I think there's limits to what she would do to others.

Shallan is tricky to analyse. We very rarely see her except from her own viewpoint and she is her own worst critic. Would you steal if it was the only way to save your family? I suspect most people would - does that make "most people" morally grey? This is not to say that Shallan was justified in stealing Jasnah's Soulcaster, and clearly it would have been better if she had tried harder to think up alternatives (like getting it repaired). Shallan tried to justify in advance to herself that it was "okay" to steal from Jasnah, trying to imagine Jasnah as someone who didn't deserve it etc but when she found out what Jasnah was really like she found it impossible - she found the very idea repulsive. It was only when Jasnah killed the thieves that Shallan was able to break through her resistance (because she was angry/disturbed by what Jasnah had done). So despite the things that Shallan has been forced to do by circumstance, I'd say that she has a decent sense of "right and wrong".

I don't think Shallan has realised this about herself, but the way I see it is that by default she gives people a chance and unless they cross certain "red lines" then she will continue to be optimistic about them. But once those lines are crossed then she can be ruthless. As we saw with her father, with Tvlakv, with Tyn. I'd say she's put Mraize and the Ghostbloods in general in the same category but the threat against her brothers stopped her. This is certainly going to cause her a lot of internal conflict in the next book but unless she fundamentally changes I think she won't every accept the Ghostbloods. Or my understanding of her could be wrong.

Just to be clear: I don't think that everything Shallan does is justified. I think she's still making the odd poor choice... and there some choices she makes that aren't explained very well that leaves things quite open to interpretation. Shallan is certainly capable of committing minor crimes. However, the Ghostbloods would readily kill innocent people if it suited them. I can't see Shallan ever doing that or agreeing with that.

 

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I do think our characters allegiances will be challenged within the next book. Dalinar will have to figure out how far he is willing to go to secure what he perceives as unity. He once said he would see everyone one of his soldiers dead if it meant preventing the Desolation: I can see where such ruthlessness might go astray. He might have to chose in between his sons, he might have to chose between Adolin and his oaths, he might have to chose if he should keep on blindly supporting Elhokar. Shallan, on her side, might have to choose in between her family and her duty as a Radiant. She might have to realize she can't help her brothers if they won't help themselves first. She might have to chose in between whom she loves and what her goals might truly be.

Yeah, saving the world is easier said than done. People will disagree about both the problem and the solution. It's impossible to avoid having to make difficult choices. Something Shallan is already used to :)

It'll be interesting to see what Adolin thinks about Shallan's more dangerous side. Kaladin has seen a bit but I don't think he really understands what she's capable of.

Edited by kari-no-sugata
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4 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It'll be interesting to see what Adolin thinks about Shallan's more dangerous side. Kaladin has seen a bit but I don't think he really understands what she's capable of.

He should keep offering to keep her safe. He'd get more than a glimpse. ;)

 

Personally im curious to see what the real game of the Ghostbloods is, i hope she goes with them. Im sure she'll justify it to herself, Shallan the KR and Veil the Ghostblood.

 

On 4/9/2017 at 9:40 PM, maxal said:

Am I the only one who thinks it ironic Dalinar completely refrained from investing any time nor effort into Adolin's love life on the pretense the boy ought to be allowed to chose his future wife only to grow incredibly excited over his son marrying a knight Radiant? Dalinar promised he wouldn't force Adolin into any union, but he seems to have grown rather fond of this one...

Hahaha Max!! Adolin goes through women like Szeth goes through targets. Dalinars basically given him free rein to go play the field with no pressure of a forced marriage and he has, i think he's simply lost any hope at keeping up with who's who. He noticed the relationship between Shallan & Adolin was different and decided if it was what Adolin wanted he'd support it long before he new what she was. 

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10 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

He should keep offering to keep her safe. He'd get more than a glimpse. ;)

I think he'd need a new Oath. Something like: I shall protect those who repeatedly ignore my warnings and get into trouble so often that I suspect they might enjoy it :D

More seriously, Shallan is fine with having protection, so long as it's on her terms. She was "amused" that her guards (the deserters) had become so protective of her later on in WoR. She sure has gotten a taste for freedom, and has no intention of going back.

 

10 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

Personally im curious to see what the real game of the Ghostbloods is, i hope she goes with them. Im sure she'll justify it to herself, Shallan the KR and Veil the Ghostblood.

They're an odd bunch for sure and it's quite hard trying to guess what their objectives are. They seem to have quite an aggressive philosophy / outlook.

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16 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

At the end of tWoK and the start of WoR, Shallan has effectively abandoned her brothers to help Jasnah. She specifically states this. Not that she has any specific plan that would save her brothers but she is choosing to focus on helping Jasnah save the world rather than trying to come up with a solution for her brothers. Fortunately, Jasnah lends a hand. So based on the choices Shallan made there, I think we already have evidence that Shallan won't do anything to save her brothers, despite the extremes she's capable of going to. She'll certainly risk her own life and even her own happiness if necessary, but I think there's limits to what she would do to others.

This is a fair point. I had overlooked the fact her decision to join Jasnah meant she was dooming her brothers. It is short-lived however as Jasnah did wish to help her, as best as she can, so we do not truly get to read Shallan making a decision for her own self. In other words, Shallan doesn't have to further weight in as to whether or not she should help her brothers. She seemed pretty intend on it in her pursuit of Adolin.

I would personally wish to read more of those limits. I would love for Shallan to figure out just how far she would go, because it isn't entirely clear to me, as a reader.

16 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Shallan is tricky to analyse. We very rarely see her except from her own viewpoint and she is her own worst critic. Would you steal if it was the only way to save your family? I suspect most people would - does that make "most people" morally grey? This is not to say that Shallan was justified in stealing Jasnah's Soulcaster, and clearly it would have been better if she had tried harder to think up alternatives (like getting it repaired). Shallan tried to justify in advance to herself that it was "okay" to steal from Jasnah, trying to imagine Jasnah as someone who didn't deserve it etc but when she found out what Jasnah was really like she found it impossible - she found the very idea repulsive. It was only when Jasnah killed the thieves that Shallan was able to break through her resistance (because she was angry/disturbed by what Jasnah had done). So despite the things that Shallan has been forced to do by circumstance, I'd say that she has a decent sense of "right and wrong".

Shallan is very tricky and I think you raise a valid point in stating we hardly ever read her from third person's perspective. While I do feel nothing supersedes first person's perspective, I also think third person's perspective is highly desirable in order to get a fuller portrayed of a given character. Dalinar and Adolin have plenty of those, but both Kaladin and Shallan are running short on them which had for effect of having readers take their words for truth. One my favorite examples to illustrate this statement would be how many readers insists on reading Adolin as a superficial spoiled princeling because this is exactly how Kaladin insists on seeing him. Readers naturally take Kaladin's side because being so often into his head made us downplay his own flaws as we don't get to experience them from other characters. 

I believe the same ought to be true for Shallan. One good example would be her humor. Many readers have come forth and state they don't enjoy it, worst it annoys them all people seem to find her funny. I will generally use the argument we think people find Shallan funny because she thinks they find her funny. We are in her head, always. Had we read Sebrarial, we might have gotten a very different story...

For the rest, would I steal to protect my family? Probably. Would I kill? If pushed hard enough, maybe, I cannot say. If the choice is in between one of my children's life or someone else, then someone else might go down the sewer. This being said, I would agree most people do embrace some layers of grey. The Stormlight Archive, however, have been championed by highly honorable Kaladin and Dalinar, whom definitely aren't morally grey, but practically pure white. Hence, after spending two whole books being told Kaladin had the right of it, reading Shallan willing to kill, reading Adolin slaying Sadeas, we are left thinking they are the evil ones while Kaladin is shinning perfection. Obviously, I am over-stating it to make a point, I do not really believe Kaladin is perfect.

Also, the reason Shallan thought it was "right" to steal from Jasnah was because she was a heretic, hence she felt he ought to be a "bad person". It is a very grey moral mind which makes you reason out a crime is justified because the victim might deserve you coming after them. Shallan might not have realized it, but by agreeing to steal the soulcaster after Jasnah's lesson she was indeed embracing it as she used the very same reasoning to steal Jasnah used to kill. They deserved it. So did Jasnah. Creepy.

I would thus say Shallan will attack others if t is required to protect her family, but she will only do it if she thinks the individual deserves it.

16 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I don't think Shallan has realised this about herself, but the way I see it is that by default she gives people a chance and unless they cross certain "red lines" then she will continue to be optimistic about them. But once those lines are crossed then she can be ruthless. As we saw with her father, with Tvlakv, with Tyn. I'd say she's put Mraize and the Ghostbloods in general in the same category but the threat against her brothers stopped her. This is certainly going to cause her a lot of internal conflict in the next book but unless she fundamentally changes I think she won't every accept the Ghostbloods. Or my understanding of her could be wrong.

Just to be clear: I don't think that everything Shallan does is justified. I think she's still making the odd poor choice... and there some choices she makes that aren't explained very well that leaves things quite open to interpretation. Shallan is certainly capable of committing minor crimes. However, the Ghostbloods would readily kill innocent people if it suited them. I can't see Shallan ever doing that or agreeing with that.'t think he really understands what she's capable of.

I don't think Shallan would kill innocents, but I do think she might not look closely enough to truly get a full grasp as to what being a Ghostblood means. In other words, Shallan has turned a blind eye on truths which aren't convenient to her, so will she do the same for the Ghostbloods? I am not saying she would accept them, but she might not pursue the truth as ardently as she ought to. Maybe. Or maybe I am wrong. I find Shallan's future story arc to be among the most difficult to speculate on.

16 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

He should keep offering to keep her safe. He'd get more than a glimpse. ;)

 

Personally im curious to see what the real game of the Ghostbloods is, i hope she goes with them. Im sure she'll justify it to herself, Shallan the KR and Veil the Ghostblood.

 

Hahaha Max!! Adolin goes through women like Szeth goes through targets. Dalinars basically given him free rein to go play the field with no pressure of a forced marriage and he has, i think he's simply lost any hope at keeping up with who's who. He noticed the relationship between Shallan & Adolin was different and decided if it was what Adolin wanted he'd support it long before he new what she was. 

Last time Adolin offered to keep Shallan safe, it didn't end well for him...

Dalinar has made such a pitiful attempt at following his son's love life he thought he still courted the silly girl with ribbons in her hair he hasn't seen in months... That one is definitely on Dalinar. Also, the one reason the casual was agreed upon was linked to Dalinar actually spending a bit of time trying to follow his son's courtships (which only happens after Adolin yells at him and Dalinar feels he has to make the first steps) only to realize women new to the warcamps by a mere three days were already calling on him. That's when he saw fit to put a stop to them, but prior to it, well, Dalinar was just being a very average father.

This being said, yeah Dalinar did notice Adolin seemed more fond of Shallan than of others which makes him wish the union would work. However, once he finds out she is a Radiants, he just seemed a bit too enthusiasm over this revelation.

6 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think he'd need a new Oath. Something like: I shall protect those who repeatedly ignore my warnings and get into trouble so often that I suspect they might enjoy it :D

More seriously, Shallan is fine with having protection, so long as it's on her terms. She was "amused" that her guards (the deserters) had become so protective of her later on in WoR. She sure has gotten a taste for freedom, and has no intention of going back.

And yet when it comes from Adolin, she backs down and give him a read out... 

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11 hours ago, maxal said:

Last time Adolin offered to keep Shallan safe, it didn't end well for him...

Dalinar has made such a pitiful attempt at following his son's love life he thought he still courted the silly girl with ribbons in her hair he hasn't seen in months... That one is definitely on Dalinar. Also, the one reason the casual was agreed upon was linked to Dalinar actually spending a bit of time trying to follow his son's courtships (which only happens after Adolin yells at him and Dalinar feels he has to make the first steps) only to realize women new to the warcamps by a mere three days were already calling on him. That's when he saw fit to put a stop to them, but prior to it, well, Dalinar was just being a very average father.

This being said, yeah Dalinar did notice Adolin seemed more fond of Shallan than of others which makes him wish the union would work. However, once he finds out she is a Radiants, he just seemed a bit too enthusiasm over this revelation.

Hahaha thats what i was referring too, like kari-no-sugata said she's got a taste for freedom and has no intention of surrendering it for anybody, he'd best beware. :D:lol:

 

Too be fair Dalinar has a lot on his plate wondering whether he's going mad and the war effort too keep track of Adolins numerous relationships but in all honesty i don't think Adolin minds in the least with the free reign on courtships his father has gifted him. I can't imagine the courtships would go any better if Adolin had the Blackthorn breathing down his neck. Could you imagine the shock though for old D? The very thing he's been looking for, for months and he suddenly realized a Knights Radiant is betrothed to his son? Dalinar was happy to let his son marry for love, even though it would mean marrying a secluded bankrupt minor house from Jah Keved with nothing to offer but everything to gain. The way i interpreted Dalinars suddenly more supportive attitude discovering what Shallan was, was that it symbolized he wasn't mad and that he was right to listen to his visions and suddenly the marriage would bind Shallan a KR to them, making the marriage a lot more beneficial as well as making his son happy.

 

18 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

They're an odd bunch for sure and it's quite hard trying to guess what their objectives are. They seem to have quite an aggressive philosophy / outlook.

Absolutely they are! I drive myself mad trying to figure it out haha. The whole of Roshar seems to be rather cut throat though. Mriaze raised a good point though about Jasnah having some of their members killed, i mean she's got an assassin on tap, Dalinar used to basically be a butcher. and don't get me started on MR.T. They all have their reasons and justifications for what they've done but for me they're not as bad as the SONS.

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19 hours ago, maxal said:

This is a fair point. I had overlooked the fact her decision to join Jasnah meant she was dooming her brothers. It is short-lived however as Jasnah did wish to help her, as best as she can, so we do not truly get to read Shallan making a decision for her own self. In other words, Shallan doesn't have to further weight in as to whether or not she should help her brothers. She seemed pretty intend on it in her pursuit of Adolin.

From end of tWoK and start of WoR:

Quote

“I can’t just abandon my brothers.” Shallan’s insides twisted again. “But this is bigger than them. Damnation—it’s bigger than me or you or any of us. I have to help, Jasnah. I can’t walk out on this. I’ll find some other way to help my family.”

Quote

The answer was simple. She’d lost everything. She’d stolen from Jasnah Kholin, one of the most powerful women in the world—and in so doing had not only lost her chance to study as she’d always dreamed, but had also doomed her brothers and her house. She had failed utterly and miserably.

Quote

 

She wasn’t unscathed. Her credibility with Jasnah had been severely wounded, and she felt that she had all but abandoned her family. But something about the experience of stealing Jasnah’s Soulcaster—which had turned out to be a fake anyway—then nearly being killed by a man she’d thought was in love with her . . .

 

As you say this was temporary in practice, but it was "real" for her for some time.

 

19 hours ago, maxal said:

I would personally wish to read more of those limits. I would love for Shallan to figure out just how far she would go, because it isn't entirely clear to me, as a reader.

Of the main characters, Shallan is probably the most multi-talented - as in, there's a lot of things she could do well if she tried. On the other hand, the things she's particularly good at (drawing) aren't especially significant most of the time. She's not suited to martial arts at all it seems. Putting it another way, if we consider a real large scale army, she could probably do just about any role in there, except being a soldier or combat instructor.

Likewise, Lightweaving and Soulcasting are probably the most open-ended Surges. I wish people would ask even basic questions about these abilities.

 

19 hours ago, maxal said:

Shallan is very tricky and I think you raise a valid point in stating we hardly ever read her from third person's perspective. While I do feel nothing supersedes first person's perspective, I also think third person's perspective is highly desirable in order to get a fuller portrayed of a given character. Dalinar and Adolin have plenty of those, but both Kaladin and Shallan are running short on them which had for effect of having readers take their words for truth. One my favorite examples to illustrate this statement would be how many readers insists on reading Adolin as a superficial spoiled princeling because this is exactly how Kaladin insists on seeing him. Readers naturally take Kaladin's side because being so often into his head made us downplay his own flaws as we don't get to experience them from other characters. 

Yeah, that certainly happens. It's particularly frustrating when Kaladin later on realises he's wrong etc but some readers still use Kaladin's early impressions.

 

19 hours ago, maxal said:

I believe the same ought to be true for Shallan. One good example would be her humor. Many readers have come forth and state they don't enjoy it, worst it annoys them all people seem to find her funny. I will generally use the argument we think people find Shallan funny because she thinks they find her funny. We are in her head, always. Had we read Sebrarial, we might have gotten a very different story...

I'll try to keep this short :)

I've looked into this before but it's not that often that others specifically compliment her and it's more often from the darkeyes - they're probably not used to a lighteyes being friendly and chatty with them (like Adolin, she gets along with people in general). I agree that her humour isn't that special on average (she's not supposed to be a comic genius either). I'd also like to point out that many of her quips are self-deprecating (ie at her own expense), which also reflects her attitude of herself - I'd say Shallan tends to be negative about herself and positive about the rest while Kaladin tends to be positive about himself (when not suffering from depression) and more negative about the rest (particularly lighteyes). Adolin often seems more positive in general but when we see things from his perspective he's always brooding about something but rarely lets it show.

I very very much doubt that Shallan is imagining things with regards to how people respond to her. I don't see any evidence at all even reading between the lines. Shallan does notice when Kaladin and Adolin don't necessarily join in the fun and she seems quite adept at reading others. Also, Shallan is not actually broken for real. She has mental issues but they're specific and "internal" and centred around her past. I think she has a tendency to accentuate the positive in others but I'm pretty sure that what she does see is real except for one or two very specific issues (eg the safe holding "Mother's soul"). If her perspective was the equivalent of "fake news" I don't think Brandon would write as much from her perspective.

Kaladin's perspective of the lighteyes is definitely skewed for most of WoR and I'd say this is made quite clear in the text - I don't see an equivalent for Shallan.

 

(I'm out of time responding tonight... I'll try to write more tomorrow...)

 

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12 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

Hahaha thats what i was referring too, like kari-no-sugata said she's got a taste for freedom and has no intention of surrendering it for anybody, he'd best beware. :D:lol:

I am pretty sure this will come into play within future books. I have once said Shallan's character progression will have to pass through her accepting others might care enough for her to wish to keep her away from harm and that love doesn't equate control

12 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

Too be fair Dalinar has a lot on his plate wondering whether he's going mad and the war effort too keep track of Adolins numerous relationships but in all honesty i don't think Adolin minds in the least with the free reign on courtships his father has gifted him. I can't imagine the courtships would go any better if Adolin had the Blackthorn breathing down his neck. Could you imagine the shock though for old D? The very thing he's been looking for, for months and he suddenly realized a Knights Radiant is betrothed to his son? Dalinar was happy to let his son marry for love, even though it would mean marrying a secluded bankrupt minor house from Jah Keved with nothing to offer but everything to gain. The way i interpreted Dalinars suddenly more supportive attitude discovering what Shallan was, was that it symbolized he wasn't mad and that he was right to listen to his visions and suddenly the marriage would bind Shallan a KR to them, making the marriage a lot more beneficial as well as making his son happy.

I don't entirely agree with you here. The way I read it, Adolin pretends he is pleased with his quick courtships turn-around, he displays the attitude of a freedom loving guy who enjoys being allowed to choose, but deep down he was internally relieved to see his family finally taking matters into their hands. Even Jakamav expresses suspicions over Adolin going so easily with the arranged casual. Why? Because the Adolin he knows, the Adolin everyone think they know would never go for it. The real Adolin however just wish he wouldn't be the one calling the shots.

I would also argue Adolin wishes his father would be paying attention even if it isn't something he would willingly admit, even to himself. Attention. This seems to be what Adolin wished he had. Real attention not related to his functions as both a soldier and a heir.

As for Dalinar, yes he is pleased to see his first real Radiant, but his reaction towards realizing not only is she a Radiant, she is Adolin's fiance was rather amusing... 

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

As you say this was temporary in practice, but it was "real" for her for some time.

I had completely forgotten about it. This is good to recall and it bodes well for the future.

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Of the main characters, Shallan is probably the most multi-talented - as in, there's a lot of things she could do well if she tried. On the other hand, the things she's particularly good at (drawing) aren't especially significant most of the time. She's not suited to martial arts at all it seems. Putting it another way, if we consider a real large scale army, she could probably do just about any role in there, except being a soldier or combat instructor.

Likewise, Lightweaving and Soulcasting are probably the most open-ended Surges. I wish people would ask even basic questions about these abilities.

I have heard people theorizing Shallan will learn how to fight and become a soldier and... I sort of hope... not. Not every single female main protagonists within works of fantasy needs to be soldier: I thought it was interesting she wasn't and I sort of wish it stays this way. I personally love how her artistic talents merge with her surgebinding offering her more strength then it appears. Kaladin is strong and everything but he is obvious. Shallan is the master of disguises and that's interesting.

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Yeah, that certainly happens. It's particularly frustrating when Kaladin later on realises he's wrong etc but some readers still use Kaladin's early impressions.

Yeah.. It practically happens on a by-weekly notice. These comments annoy me just about as much as those stating Adolin will become evil.

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'll try to keep this short :)

I've looked into this before but it's not that often that others specifically compliment her and it's more often from the darkeyes - they're probably not used to a lighteyes being friendly and chatty with them (like Adolin, she gets along with people in general). I agree that her humour isn't that special on average (she's not supposed to be a comic genius either). I'd also like to point out that many of her quips are self-deprecating (ie at her own expense), which also reflects her attitude of herself - I'd say Shallan tends to be negative about herself and positive about the rest while Kaladin tends to be positive about himself (when not suffering from depression) and more negative about the rest (particularly lighteyes). Adolin often seems more positive in general but when we see things from his perspective he's always brooding about something but rarely lets it show.

I very very much doubt that Shallan is imagining things with regards to how people respond to her. I don't see any evidence at all even reading between the lines. Shallan does notice when Kaladin and Adolin don't necessarily join in the fun and she seems quite adept at reading others. Also, Shallan is not actually broken for real. She has mental issues but they're specific and "internal" and centred around her past. I think she has a tendency to accentuate the positive in others but I'm pretty sure that what she does see is real except for one or two very specific issues (eg the safe holding "Mother's soul"). If her perspective was the equivalent of "fake news" I don't think Brandon would write as much from her perspective.

Kaladin's perspective of the lighteyes is definitely skewed for most of WoR and I'd say this is made quite clear in the text - I don't see an equivalent for Shallan.

What I meant is whichever reaction we have from others to Shallan's wits are read from Shallan's perspective. People can react in various ways, people can pretend they enjoy a joke when they find it silly and boring. My point was we aren't within the mind of her interlocutors and while Shallan might adequately be reading their reactions, the reaction they showed her might be inline with their thoughts. I thus do not think it is Shallan's perception which is skewed, but others who feel they ought to behave in a given way next to her. The darkeyes, for instance, might think they have to laugh a her jokes because she is a lighteye, but Shallan perceives it as proof her wit is working.

I do agree Shallan's outtake on life is generally positive: I have always read her as a happy go lucky bunny :o but she is a hard judge of herself. She isn't broken and yet she insists she is. She fears if she were to face the truth, she would break. 

I do agree Kaladin's outtake on life is generally negative, but he does seem to think pretty highly about himself whenever he isn't thinking about his failure to protect anyone. 

Adolin... Adolin wants to feel secure. When everything works as it is supposed to work, he will be very positive about just everything, but when it starts to go astray, he doubts endlessly. I wouldn't call him negative: he isn't negative. He's insecure, he fears change and/or new things, but he doesn't want to disappoints, so he pretends nothing ever bother him.

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12 hours ago, maxal said:

I have heard people theorizing Shallan will learn how to fight and become a soldier and... I sort of hope... not. Not every single female main protagonists within works of fantasy needs to be soldier: I thought it was interesting she wasn't and I sort of wish it stays this way. I personally love how her artistic talents merge with her surgebinding offering her more strength then it appears. Kaladin is strong and everything but he is obvious. Shallan is the master of disguises and that's interesting.

While I can imagine Shallan helping in support roles, at the moment it's hard to imagine her fighting on the front line in a war. Becoming a competent soldier is not a small task either and I think Shallan will be both too busy with other tasks and also not particularly inclined to learn.

It seems quite clear to me that Odium's way of fighting is a lot more complicated than simply throwing a lot of mooks into battle. He does wide area mental/soul attacks as well - eg the Thrill. These seem designed to eat way at societies, honor, hope, etc. From what we've seen so far, Shallan seems better equipped to fight those kinds of battles than the more physical ones.

 

12 hours ago, maxal said:

What I meant is whichever reaction we have from others to Shallan's wits are read from Shallan's perspective. People can react in various ways, people can pretend they enjoy a joke when they find it silly and boring. My point was we aren't within the mind of her interlocutors and while Shallan might adequately be reading their reactions, the reaction they showed her might be inline with their thoughts. I thus do not think it is Shallan's perception which is skewed, but others who feel they ought to behave in a given way next to her. The darkeyes, for instance, might think they have to laugh a her jokes because she is a lighteye, but Shallan perceives it as proof her wit is working.

Ah, I see. Phew :)

What you're talking about could be called a form of "confirmation bias" - seeing what you expect to see and glossing over any inconsistencies. I agree that without more viewpoints it's hard to be sure but I think we have enough examples of Shallan seeing beyond the superficial surface layer of people's responses. For example, being able to differentiate between Adolin's "scripted" responses and his genuine responses. Seeing through Kaladin's insults of Adolin. Reading the mood in general. I don't remember an example hinting at what you're suggesting either. Also, Pattern could be expected to react to such "lies".

Actually, I worry a lot about "confirmation bias" with regards to my analysis of Shallan. I've worked hard to try to understand her and I think I do, but so many other readers come up with very different conclusions so it's hard to feel confident...

 

12 hours ago, maxal said:

I do agree Shallan's outtake on life is generally positive: I have always read her as a happy go lucky bunny :o but she is a hard judge of herself. She isn't broken and yet she insists she is. She fears if she were to face the truth, she would break. 

I do agree Kaladin's outtake on life is generally negative, but he does seem to think pretty highly about himself whenever he isn't thinking about his failure to protect anyone. 

Adolin... Adolin wants to feel secure. When everything works as it is supposed to work, he will be very positive about just everything, but when it starts to go astray, he doubts endlessly. I wouldn't call him negative: he isn't negative. He's insecure, he fears change and/or new things, but he doesn't want to disappoints, so he pretends nothing ever bother him.

Hmm. Adolin doesn't seem "brittle" but perhaps he doesn't have the underlying confidence of someone who has made a lot of achievements in many areas. Putting on a confident front, perhaps?

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4 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

While I can imagine Shallan helping in support roles, at the moment it's hard to imagine her fighting on the front line in a war. Becoming a competent soldier is not a small task either and I think Shallan will be both too busy with other tasks and also not particularly inclined to learn.

It seems quite clear to me that Odium's way of fighting is a lot more complicated than simply throwing a lot of mooks into battle. He does wide area mental/soul attacks as well - eg the Thrill. These seem designed to eat way at societies, honor, hope, etc. From what we've seen so far, Shallan seems better equipped to fight those kinds of battles than the more physical ones.

I absolutely agree. One of my personal's pet peeves is when authors diminish the time and the effort required to turn a non-solder into one especially when it involves weapons manipulation demanding a high level of skill such as swords. While it isn't impossible Shallan will learn a few basic moves with her Shardblade, mostly to defend her own self, I would rather if she concentrated on her other tasks.

I think, as we move into the books, we are going to find an increasing number of individuals having been compromised by Odium. We are going to see people being attacked in such ways which is where someone like Shallan, having withstand abuse into an Odium directed household might become very useful.

4 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

What you're talking about could be called a form of "confirmation bias" - seeing what you expect to see and glossing over any inconsistencies. I agree that without more viewpoints it's hard to be sure but I think we have enough examples of Shallan seeing beyond the superficial surface layer of people's responses. For example, being able to differentiate between Adolin's "scripted" responses and his genuine responses. Seeing through Kaladin's insults of Adolin. Reading the mood in general. I don't remember an example hinting at what you're suggesting either. Also, Pattern could be expected to react to such "lies".

Actually, I worry a lot about "confirmation bias" with regards to my analysis of Shallan. I've worked hard to try to understand her and I think I do, but so many other readers come up with very different conclusions so it's hard to feel confident...

I think our expectations shape our perceptions, either we want it or not. Thus, if we expect to see something, we might amplify the one single clue it might be there. Thus, is Shallan's assessment of her own wit correct or not? Brandon did say she was full of herself, meaning she did think herself more clever than she was. How is this influencing her perception and more importantly, how is it influencing readers's perceptions of Shallan? It is undeniable her character has caused several negative comments, mostly with respect to her wit and to her humor. I have read others claim people pandered to her, which I don't think they do, but some readers have this perception. I had thus wonder if how Shallan perceives the effect she has on people might not be influenced by the effect she wishes to produce? Isn't she the master of disguise, able to impersonate basically anyone? It is hard to dissociate the real Shallan, from the lightweaved Shallan, the one who is a more polished version of herself.

As for what she sees in others, I'd say it depends on how engage she is. With Adolin, she was drinking his every word: it was easy for her to snatch the moment he stopped being superficial and he become genuine. With Kaladin, he was insulting Adolin... with a word play. I'd say it isn't so much moods she is reading, but truths from lies be they within words and/or personalities.

This being said, Shallan is a very hard character to analyse because her persona is very complex. Also, not everyone has given her character as much thought as you which means you probably are closer to the truth than anyone else :P And our character analysis are forever evolving creatures: I have changed so much in my analysis of Adolin since I started doing it, it becomes hard, at times, to try to explain why I came up with the conclusion some theories just aren't quite right, especially since well... we have to keep in mind we might be terribly wrong :ph34r:

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Hmm. Adolin doesn't seem "brittle" but perhaps he doesn't have the underlying confidence of someone who has made a lot of achievements in many areas. Putting on a confident front, perhaps?

Brittle? Adolin is not brittle, this isn't a word I would use to describe him. I would say he is one of those individuals who is comforted by the non-changing, stable nature of things. I would say he loves when things are predictable and, providing they absolutely have to be unpredictable, he wishes for them to be unpredictable in ways he knows how to deal with. A good example would be leading battles: the unexpected happens, but he knows what to do, so he keeps his head cool.

I think there two things currently going on with Adolin... The first one is this fear of change, this natural fear he has when faced with new things. Good in-book examples would be how he reacts to his father's visions, how ill-at-east he is over the prospect of soon becoming a Highprince, how nervous he is over the countdown, how he fears Highstorms...

Oathbringer spoiler

Spoiler

And how he once was afraid of horses because they are too peculiar, too strange when compared to reassuring shells.

Each one of those elements have one thing in common: he has little control over the outcome. Whatever he does, the event will happen. That's where he struggles, but as long as his world remains stable, it wasn't so much an issue. Now it is rapidly changing, he might have the time he needs to adjust himself, to adapt.

The second thing is self-confidence. Yes, he puts on a confident front, he even tells us about it, twice: once in WoK, once in WoR. There is something within Adolin's character that prompts him to be strong, reliable, to be what he thinks others need of him. He won't ever allow anything to challenge this perception which is why Adolin's inner monologue often clashes with his behavior or what others read into his behavior. My latest suspicions are it all comes down to how he was raised, it comes down to Dalinar, the father who do love him, but has never given him much attention beyond his ability to accomplish tasks and obey rules. Hence, Adolin isn't confident he is good enough outside the strict box which are Dalinar's set of rules. He never perceived he was loved for who he was, hence he always try to be whoever others want him to be.

This last one is tricky though. I am still working on it.

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(...continued from previous post...)

 

On 12/04/2017 at 2:45 AM, maxal said:

For the rest, would I steal to protect my family? Probably. Would I kill? If pushed hard enough, maybe, I cannot say. If the choice is in between one of my children's life or someone else, then someone else might go down the sewer. This being said, I would agree most people do embrace some layers of grey. The Stormlight Archive, however, have been championed by highly honorable Kaladin and Dalinar, whom definitely aren't morally grey, but practically pure white. Hence, after spending two whole books being told Kaladin had the right of it, reading Shallan willing to kill, reading Adolin slaying Sadeas, we are left thinking they are the evil ones while Kaladin is shinning perfection. Obviously, I am over-stating it to make a point, I do not really believe Kaladin is perfect.

Brandon did something pretty sneaky with tWoK. Like a stage magician, he kept the focus on certain things, allowing the readers to fool themselves, depending on how closely they looked. The setting for the world is not a nice place. There aren't many honourable people around. It's also natural for readers to trust characters more when they read their viewpoint, particularly when they do cool and awesome stuff and the antagonists are obviously horrible. But the protagonists have real flaws too.

The Kaladin we see in WoR is the same person. He's in a safer and nicer place. He should be happier, right? But it doesn't work like that. His flaws undermine him. In tWoK he's able to use his anger and rebellious tendencies in a positive way - the people he's fighting against deserve it. However, his unhealthy anger and prejudice against lighteyes works against him in WoR. He believed he was in the right to counter the "oppression" from lighteyes. That he was justified. In some cases, certainly, but applying that to all lighteyes regardless became a poison. Fortunately, he was able to come to the realisation that he was wrong. That lighteyes are people. That lighteyes suffer for real. That he was essentially fighting the wrong battle. It's a very common mistake people make.

Dalinar's flaws are rather more subtle but he has them as well.

 

On 12/04/2017 at 2:45 AM, maxal said:

Also, the reason Shallan thought it was "right" to steal from Jasnah was because she was a heretic, hence she felt he ought to be a "bad person". It is a very grey moral mind which makes you reason out a crime is justified because the victim might deserve you coming after them. Shallan might not have realized it, but by agreeing to steal the soulcaster after Jasnah's lesson she was indeed embracing it as she used the very same reasoning to steal Jasnah used to kill. They deserved it. So did Jasnah. Creepy.

Yeah, in tWoK Shallan is making a typical mistake - granting herself the right to commit crimes that benefit herself (and her family) by "demonising" the victim. "She's not a nice person, therefore it's okay. She's a heretic, therefore it's okay. She's probably an ugly spinster, therefore it's okay". It's an easy trap to fall into and it happens all the time. But fortunately Shallan is not so blind that she can continue this argument after having actually met Jasnah. She wasn't able to give herself a reasoned argument any more for stealing the soulcaster.

However, I wouldn't say what Shallan did by stealing the soulcaster in the end and what Jasnah did was quite the same. Shallan did it as an impulsive reaction out of anger, while Jasnah clearly planned it, though there are definite similarities too:

Quote

How dare Jasnah do this? How dare she make Shallan a part of it? How dare she use something beautiful and holy as a device for destruction? Jasnah didn’t deserve to own the Soulcaster.

Immediately after the quote above, Shallan steals it.

Shallan is an interesting mix of logic and emotion. Sometimes she makes a decision based on logic and sometimes on emotion and sometimes a mix.

 

On 12/04/2017 at 2:45 AM, maxal said:

I would thus say Shallan will attack others if t is required to protect her family, but she will only do it if she thinks the individual deserves it.

It'll be interesting to see what Shallan is capable of doing and what she might be forced to do. I think for Shallan to methodically attack someone physically (fully planned like what Jasnah did) completely of her own free will would require some very unusual circumstances. I can definitely imagine her doing it against the Ghostbloods at some point. I don't think she would ever do what Jasnah specifically did. Is there anyone else she might attack? Well, an interesting case would be Amaram. I doubt the Ghostbloods will trust Shallan too much initially - they'll want to bind her to them more. They might try to make her commit some kind of crime, maybe even kill someone. If at that point, Shallan isn't willing to rebel against the Ghostbloods, she could try to change her given "job" into attacking Amaram, telling them that he killed her brother and she wants revenge. Going by WoR, I don't think she would genuinely do this of her own free will unless she knew how scummy Amaram was, which she might not know in this theoretical scenario. But if she's forced into a difficult decision, might she attack someone she believes at the time doesn't really deserve it as a sort of cover? (to fool to Ghostbloods). That would be quite interesting for sure...

 

On 12/04/2017 at 2:45 AM, maxal said:

I don't think Shallan would kill innocents, but I do think she might not look closely enough to truly get a full grasp as to what being a Ghostblood means. In other words, Shallan has turned a blind eye on truths which aren't convenient to her, so will she do the same for the Ghostbloods? I am not saying she would accept them, but she might not pursue the truth as ardently as she ought to. Maybe. Or maybe I am wrong. I find Shallan's future story arc to be among the most difficult to speculate on.

I don't think she's likely to turn a blind eye to the Ghostbloods as such, since she's already aware of the danger. Though it's possible she might not be as careful or thorough as she needs to be (partly due to her lack of time). Shallan is getting better as spotting her own deficiencies as well, having being forced to confront them.

Putting aside things like the Ghostbloods, her brothers, and the world ending... I wonder how much the events at the end of WoR will change her. It was clearly very painful for her to finally openly admit to herself that she had killed her own mother. The final scene in the book of her does take several days later and my impression is that she has recovered. I also wonder how much it will change her Surgebinding. She should be just one step below a full Radiant now. Essentially implying she has one major Truth still to reveal. Which could be just about anything.

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1 hour ago, maxal said:

I absolutely agree. One of my personal's pet peeves is when authors diminish the time and the effort required to turn a non-solder into one especially when it involves weapons manipulation demanding a high level of skill such as swords. While it isn't impossible Shallan will learn a few basic moves with her Shardblade, mostly to defend her own self, I would rather if she concentrated on her other tasks.

I think, as we move into the books, we are going to find an increasing number of individuals having been compromised by Odium. We are going to see people being attacked in such ways which is where someone like Shallan, having withstand abuse into an Odium directed household might become very useful.

Probably lots of people will be tainted. More and more. It's going to get ugly.

Going back to the subject of this thread, if Shallan's going to regularly face such things I'd rather have someone like Adolin by her side. In comparison, Kaladin seems like the kind of person to get tainted and become a liability.

 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I think our expectations shape our perceptions, either we want it or not. Thus, if we expect to see something, we might amplify the one single clue it might be there. Thus, is Shallan's assessment of her own wit correct or not? Brandon did say she was full of herself, meaning she did think herself more clever than she was. How is this influencing her perception and more importantly, how is it influencing readers's perceptions of Shallan? It is undeniable her character has caused several negative comments, mostly with respect to her wit and to her humor. I have read others claim people pandered to her, which I don't think they do, but some readers have this perception. I had thus wonder if how Shallan perceives the effect she has on people might not be influenced by the effect she wishes to produce? Isn't she the master of disguise, able to impersonate basically anyone? It is hard to dissociate the real Shallan, from the lightweaved Shallan, the one who is a more polished version of herself.

Brandon hasn't made it easy to like Shallan. She criticises herself a lot. She doesn't do the same sort of "awesome" things that Kaladin and Dalinar do. When she does have bigger moments, often they're overshadowed or undermined. She killed her own parents. She often seems to be doing something dubious. Respected characters criticise her. etc. Ultimately, readers will combine all sorts of things to determine their feelings towards a character. And if you don't like a character, even trivial flaws can be aggravating. So when people complain about certain aspects of Shallan, I wouldn't say it's a core reason.

 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

As for what she sees in others, I'd say it depends on how engage she is. With Adolin, she was drinking his every word: it was easy for her to snatch the moment he stopped being superficial and he become genuine. With Kaladin, he was insulting Adolin... with a word play. I'd say it isn't so much moods she is reading, but truths from lies be they within words and/or personalities.

This being said, Shallan is a very hard character to analyse because her persona is very complex. Also, not everyone has given her character as much thought as you which means you probably are closer to the truth than anyone else :P And our character analysis are forever evolving creatures: I have changed so much in my analysis of Adolin since I started doing it, it becomes hard, at times, to try to explain why I came up with the conclusion some theories just aren't quite right, especially since well... we have to keep in mind we might be terribly wrong :ph34r:

I've done what I can to try to avoid fooling myself but it's entirely possible that I'm over-emphasising certain things and under-emphasising others. For example, Brandon has specifically stated that she has a problem with authority figures but I can't say that I can fully get that from the text - her attitude towards Dalinar for much for the book is odd but it's not like she went into the reasons. She never seemed to have a problem with Elhokar. Maybe Brandon meant "authoritarian figures"...?

 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Brittle? Adolin is not brittle, this isn't a word I would use to describe him. I would say he is one of those individuals who is comforted by the non-changing, stable nature of things. I would say he loves when things are predictable and, providing they absolutely have to be unpredictable, he wishes for them to be unpredictable in ways he knows how to deal with. A good example would be leading battles: the unexpected happens, but he knows what to do, so he keeps his head cool.

Just to be clear, I said: Adolin doesn't seem "brittle"

 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I think there two things currently going on with Adolin... The first one is this fear of change, this natural fear he has when faced with new things. Good in-book examples would be how he reacts to his father's visions, how ill-at-east he is over the prospect of soon becoming a Highprince, how nervous he is over the countdown, how he fears Highstorms...

Oathbringer spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

And how he once was afraid of horses because they are too peculiar, too strange when compared to reassuring shells.

Each one of those elements have one thing in common: he has little control over the outcome. Whatever he does, the event will happen. That's where he struggles, but as long as his world remains stable, it wasn't so much an issue. Now it is rapidly changing, he might have the time he needs to adjust himself, to adapt.

The second thing is self-confidence. Yes, he puts on a confident front, he even tells us about it, twice: once in WoK, once in WoR. There is something within Adolin's character that prompts him to be strong, reliable, to be what he thinks others need of him. He won't ever allow anything to challenge this perception which is why Adolin's inner monologue often clashes with his behavior or what others read into his behavior. My latest suspicions are it all comes down to how he was raised, it comes down to Dalinar, the father who do love him, but has never given him much attention beyond his ability to accomplish tasks and obey rules. Hence, Adolin isn't confident he is good enough outside the strict box which are Dalinar's set of rules. He never perceived he was loved for who he was, hence he always try to be whoever others want him to be.

This last one is tricky though. I am still working on it.

We've gotten very few hints of Adolin's childhood in the books themselves but this sort of idea seems highly plausible.

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3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Brandon did something pretty sneaky with tWoK. Like a stage magician, he kept the focus on certain things, allowing the readers to fool themselves, depending on how closely they looked. The setting for the world is not a nice place. There aren't many honourable people around. It's also natural for readers to trust characters more when they read their viewpoint, particularly when they do cool and awesome stuff and the antagonists are obviously horrible. But the protagonists have real flaws too.

The Kaladin we see in WoR is the same person. He's in a safer and nicer place. He should be happier, right? But it doesn't work like that. His flaws undermine him. In tWoK he's able to use his anger and rebellious tendencies in a positive way - the people he's fighting against deserve it. However, his unhealthy anger and prejudice against lighteyes works against him in WoR. He believed he was in the right to counter the "oppression" from lighteyes. That he was justified. In some cases, certainly, but applying that to all lighteyes regardless became a poison. Fortunately, he was able to come to the realisation that he was wrong. That lighteyes are people. That lighteyes suffer for real. That he was essentially fighting the wrong battle. It's a very common mistake people make.

Dalinar's flaws are rather more subtle but he has them as well.

Oh I didn't mean neither Kaladin nor Dalinar had flaws, I meant their flaws are less visible. For instance, for all his hate of lighteyes, Kaladin would have never taken out the knife on Sadeas: he wouldn't even kill Szeth. Dalinar is a man of words and rules: he would never break one even when reason dictates he should. While this makes him a rigid tyrant at times, it also makes him honorable, thus quite firmly sitting on the side of right. 

I do not know how closely you followed all discussions, but many readers still consider Kaladin and Dalinar to be the utmost good characters (not perfect, but so honorable their flaws appear minor) while considering Adolin as on the path towards evil because he did one debatable action. Kaladin and Dalinar have had more questionable actions, but it is Adolin people have pinned for evil.

It also makes Shallan a more grayish character. It isn't so much the people she killed, mostly in self-defense, but the lies she told and the manipulation she seems ready to perform.

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Yeah, in tWoK Shallan is making a typical mistake - granting herself the right to commit crimes that benefit herself (and her family) by "demonising" the victim. "She's not a nice person, therefore it's okay. She's a heretic, therefore it's okay. She's probably an ugly spinster, therefore it's okay". It's an easy trap to fall into and it happens all the time. But fortunately Shallan is not so blind that she can continue this argument after having actually met Jasnah. She wasn't able to give herself a reasoned argument any more for stealing the soulcaster.

However, I wouldn't say what Shallan did by stealing the soulcaster in the end and what Jasnah did was quite the same. Shallan did it as an impulsive reaction out of anger, while Jasnah clearly planned it, though there are definite similarities too:

Immediately after the quote above, Shallan steals it.

Shallan is an interesting mix of logic and emotion. Sometimes she makes a decision based on logic and sometimes on emotion and sometimes a mix.

Phrased it this way, I find an odd resemblance in between Shallan stealing the soulcaster and Adolin murdering Sadeas... While it is true Shallan justified her intentions by stating Jasnah Kholin, as a heretic princess, probably deserved it, she had a harder time keeping this line of thinking upon meeting up Jasnah. It is so easy to bad mouth a stranger, it is much harder when said stranger becomes real. However, when Jasnah proved herself ruthlessness by killing the thugs, which isn't something Shallan would have done (she has no personal plights against the thugs and they aren't threatening her family), she got angry. What seemed to anger Shallan the most was the fact Jasnah used the soulcaster to do it, an object Shallan already thought a heretic such as Jasnah shouldn't possess and now she is using it to kill?

She was angry and she acted without thinking much more about it.

Sounds familiar?

Without the killing of the thugs, Shallam might have never gotten a strong enough incentive to act just as, without Sadeas's taunting him while being in an already distressed state, Adolin would have never killed him. Both broke down their own inhibitions after going through a strong emotional push. Just as Shallan kept on thinking about stealing the soulcaster, Adolin thought about killing Sadeas from times to times.

This is the first time I am drawing a parallel into both scenes. This is very interesting. If I am right about this parallel, then it might be something Brandon will use in his future plotting for these two characters. A lot of people have theorized Shallan wouldn't react positively to hearing Adolin killed Sadeas, mostly because his anger might feel to similar to her father. However if Shallan recognizes in Adolin, the same patterns which led to her to both con/steal Jasnah (an action she regretted doing), then she might feel sympathy towards him or perhaps a strange urge to protect him. I have always thought it'd be interesting if, after spending a lifetime being the strong protective one for his family, if Adolin ended being the one needing the strength of others, even if only for a short while.

14 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It'll be interesting to see what Shallan is capable of doing and what she might be forced to do. I think for Shallan to methodically attack someone physically (fully planned like what Jasnah did) completely of her own free will would require some very unusual circumstances. I can definitely imagine her doing it against the Ghostbloods at some point. I don't think she would ever do what Jasnah specifically did. Is there anyone else she might attack? Well, an interesting case would be Amaram. I doubt the Ghostbloods will trust Shallan too much initially - they'll want to bind her to them more. They might try to make her commit some kind of crime, maybe even kill someone. If at that point, Shallan isn't willing to rebel against the Ghostbloods, she could try to change her given "job" into attacking Amaram, telling them that he killed her brother and she wants revenge. Going by WoR, I don't think she would genuinely do this of her own free will unless she knew how scummy Amaram was, which she might not know in this theoretical scenario. But if she's forced into a difficult decision, might she attack someone she believes at the time doesn't really deserve it as a sort of cover? (to fool to Ghostbloods). That would be quite interesting for sure...

I do not think Shallan would have killed the thugs on the pretense they have been doing harm to others. Each time she acted against someone, it was either in self-defense or in defense of someone she loves. In other words, if it isn't personal, then she seems unlikely to pass to action. I also wouldn't see her planning to kill someone, such as Jasnah, and/or hiring assassins. I do not read her as someone who wants to kill and/or harm people, she has been harmed enough, she has no desire to harm others, quite to the contrary, she wants others to better themselves as illustrated in her "rescuing" of the deserters. She didn't condemn them, she offered them another path. Thus, I don't see her genuinely deciding to kill someone. Each time she has done "bad", it was when her emotions got strong enough to push her to it: her father threatening Balat, Tyn trying to murder her, Jasnah killing the thugs.

Will her involvement with the Ghostbloods create such occasions? Perhaps. Maybe. This is hard to say, they are, after all, the ones who killed Jasnah. I do not think she would actually kill anyone even to keep her cover intact... I see her trying to con her way out of it, to pretend she did it, when in fact she hid the "victim". She is the master of illusions, she can lightweave herself out of it, I think. As for Amaram, he would need to present himself into a real threat for her to decide she wants to kill him. Revenge doesn't seem to inhabit her and while she thinks Amaram did kill Helaran, they were on opposite sides of a battle... There are no reasons she wouldn't reason out it wasn't Amaram's fault just as she is sure to reason out Kaladin isn't to blame. I thus don't see her talking actions against him for this reason.

She isn't an assassin... She has never killed someone not actively engaged in the process of either killing her and/or her brothers. Speaking of which, I had wondered if she might end up having to kill one of her brothers.... There is this WoB about Balat being compromised by Odium... Can she save him or will she have to take him out? If one of her brothers need killing, then I am sure Shallan would do it herself.

14 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I don't think she's likely to turn a blind eye to the Ghostbloods as such, since she's already aware of the danger. Though it's possible she might not be as careful or thorough as she needs to be (partly due to her lack of time). Shallan is getting better as spotting her own deficiencies as well, having being forced to confront them.

Putting aside things like the Ghostbloods, her brothers, and the world ending... I wonder how much the events at the end of WoR will change her. It was clearly very painful for her to finally openly admit to herself that she had killed her own mother. The final scene in the book of her does take several days later and my impression is that she has recovered. I also wonder how much it will change her Surgebinding. She should be just one step below a full Radiant now. Essentially implying she has one major Truth still to reveal. Which could be just about anything.

She still has her block when it comes to lighweaving and she still needs to master soulcasting... Unlike Kaladin, her truths do not seem to be linked to additional powers or if it does, it isn't as obvious.

I wonder what her next truth will be...

Speaking of which, I do not know how closely you followed the development for Oathbringer, but starting next book, Brandon is giving flashbacks to other characters than the focus one. Hence, we are getting four additional flashbacks for Kaladin featuring his relationship with Tarah (I didn't listen to the audio for this one, I was content to wait for the book to read it). Apparently, we are also getting this one flashback chapter for Adolin (he read one page of this one recently, but I try not to be too excited about it, I do not know if it'll go into the final book, but he added it after the beta read, so maybe it is all linked *fingers crossed*). Thus, I would be surprised if we didn't get additional flashbacks for Shallan featuring how she met Pattern. It has been one complain Brandon has received, how Shallan's story didn't seem to include all the important elements and too many is left untold. So maybe be not within the next book (I haven't heard anything about Shallan getting additional flashbacks into Oathbringer), but I am quite sure we are going to get it, perhaps in book 4. 

13 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Probably lots of people will be tainted. More and more. It's going to get ugly.

Going back to the subject of this thread, if Shallan's going to regularly face such things I'd rather have someone like Adolin by her side. In comparison, Kaladin seems like the kind of person to get tainted and become a liability.

I heard something recently about Aseduan being tainted, seeing shadows and being paranoid too... I think it might have been into one of the readings I didn't listen and/or read. Sometimes, if they tackle elements I am less interested about, I chose not to indulge in order to keep some of the good stuff for the actual book reading. 

I have never believed Elhokar was truly seeing cryptics willing to bond him into his mirror... I am now thinking what is he seeing is related to Odium and it is trying to corrupt him. It has moderately succeeded but not quite so... when Elhokar called in for Kaladin, they went away. That's when I think, perhaps it failed. They might go to someone else...

Will Adolin start seeing shadows into the mirror? Will Odium think all of this anger is something he could use? Will he come for Adolin? Not that I think it will work, but there might be an attempt. I do not know about Kaladin being corrupted, he does have a strong need for vengeance and an anger he can't released, but he has Syl and he is honorable. Personally, I feel Shallan and Adolin would make a good team, they are both impulsive and they can both can ridiculously excited over things. It would be interesting to read, if Brandon decides to go there.

13 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Brandon hasn't made it easy to like Shallan. She criticises herself a lot. She doesn't do the same sort of "awesome" things that Kaladin and Dalinar do. When she does have bigger moments, often they're overshadowed or undermined. She killed her own parents. She often seems to be doing something dubious. Respected characters criticise her. etc. Ultimately, readers will combine all sorts of things to determine their feelings towards a character. And if you don't like a character, even trivial flaws can be aggravating. So when people complain about certain aspects of Shallan, I wouldn't say it's a core reason.

Well, as a rule of thumb, people will always prefer the heroic action character such as Kaladin to characters such as Shallan within works of fantasy. A lot of people are in it because they want to read about the magic, so they love characters such as Szeth and Kaladin who spends a lot of time using it. I personally do not care for the magic, I care for it as a tool to be used by the characters, but it isn't something I want to read on its own. Thus, Kaladin's heroic fights with a planned in advance outcome aren't my favorite parts of the story. I think Adolin's scenes are more emotion heavy and daunting as his survival isn't assured. 

Shallan, just like Marasi, is the smart female character evolving next to the great action hero. Her morality is dubious, she lies, she tries to con other people, not out of malice, but out of need. She doesn't have Kaladin's carefully crafted story arcs which always ends up in him being positioned to be the hero, thus erasing all his previous wrongs. Shallan has to earn it. She had to earn the Kholin's trusts: it wasn't given to her. And just like Adolin, her actions, finding Urithiru and saving the army, were over-shadowed by Kaladin fighting Szeth.

It has always bothered me Kaladin is considered the hero of the final sequence when in reality, Adolin won the battle and Shallan saved the army. Kaladin defeated the assassin, he saved Dalinar and Adolin's life, but he didn't win the day.

I thus think Shallan is unlike by some because she isn't the traditional fantasy hero. She requires more work to love, but once you love her, she becomes a really great character. 

14 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I've done what I can to try to avoid fooling myself but it's entirely possible that I'm over-emphasising certain things and under-emphasising others. For example, Brandon has specifically stated that she has a problem with authority figures but I can't say that I can fully get that from the text - her attitude towards Dalinar for much for the book is odd but it's not like she went into the reasons. She never seemed to have a problem with Elhokar. Maybe Brandon meant "authoritarian figures"...?

How many times have I fooled myself? I have lost count :ph34r: So I wouldn't worry so much about it. Theories and character analysis are meant to evolve: we might over-emphasize elements and downplay others, but in the end, as long as it keeps evolving, it should be all right. 

As for Shallan and authority, well, there is this one scene where he asks her to move back inside and she chafe stating she would do as she wish. Then again, she hasn't had much interaction with the man apart from their first meeting where she thought he was ugly and intimidating. We never saw her interact with Elhokar either, so I suspect this might come into play into the next book where she is bond to have more interactions with various figures within positions of authority.

14 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Just to be clear, I said: Adolin doesn't seem "brittle"

 

We've gotten very few hints of Adolin's childhood in the books themselves but this sort of idea seems highly plausible.

I know! I thought you were saying I said he was brittle... I don't think he is. 

Based on the little I know about Adolin's childhood, it seems like a possibility. What we know is very small... We know he once felt jealous of Renarin because he got a lot of attention (which assumes Adolin didn't). We know most of this sense of morality comes from his mother. We know Dalinar is too hard on Adolin, this isn't just impressions. 

From the small Oathbringer reading, we also know:

Spoiler

He spent his childhood following his father from one warcamp to the other and he was secretly afraid of horses (he would never admit it to anyone).

I assume Dalinar's flashbacks might contain additional information. Those I have read didn't have Adolin in it yet, he wasn't born yet.

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6 hours ago, maxal said:

Oh I didn't mean neither Kaladin nor Dalinar had flaws, I meant their flaws are less visible. For instance, for all his hate of lighteyes, Kaladin would have never taken out the knife on Sadeas: he wouldn't even kill Szeth. Dalinar is a man of words and rules: he would never break one even when reason dictates he should. While this makes him a rigid tyrant at times, it also makes him honorable, thus quite firmly sitting on the side of right. 

I guess should have explicitly stated this: I understood what you were saying and was speculating on why this might be the case :)

 

6 hours ago, maxal said:

I do not know how closely you followed all discussions, but many readers still consider Kaladin and Dalinar to be the utmost good characters (not perfect, but so honorable their flaws appear minor) while considering Adolin as on the path towards evil because he did one debatable action. Kaladin and Dalinar have had more questionable actions, but it is Adolin people have pinned for evil.

It also makes Shallan a more grayish character. It isn't so much the people she killed, mostly in self-defense, but the lies she told and the manipulation she seems ready to perform.

I remember Brandon talking about when he was younger and first read the Wheel of Time he basically took the side of the younger characters but on re-reading it when older he appreciated the perspective of the older characters more and found the younger characters to be more annoying (or something like that). I think there's a similar split going on here.

To summarise my thoughts on the major characters: I'd say they all have flaws and this ties into the background and also their character development. For the proto Radiants, they have to overcome their flaws to progress as Radiants, though that's not to say they won't have flaws even as full Radiants. Of course, there's also a difference between "character flaws" and characteristics that some readers don't like. I think it's wrong to deny the existence of those character flaws, since that denies the achievement of overcoming those flaws.

 

6 hours ago, maxal said:

Phrased it this way, I find an odd resemblance in between Shallan stealing the soulcaster and Adolin murdering Sadeas... While it is true Shallan justified her intentions by stating Jasnah Kholin, as a heretic princess, probably deserved it, she had a harder time keeping this line of thinking upon meeting up Jasnah. It is so easy to bad mouth a stranger, it is much harder when said stranger becomes real. However, when Jasnah proved herself ruthlessness by killing the thugs, which isn't something Shallan would have done (she has no personal plights against the thugs and they aren't threatening her family), she got angry. What seemed to anger Shallan the most was the fact Jasnah used the soulcaster to do it, an object Shallan already thought a heretic such as Jasnah shouldn't possess and now she is using it to kill?

She was angry and she acted without thinking much more about it.

Sounds familiar?

Without the killing of the thugs, Shallam might have never gotten a strong enough incentive to act just as, without Sadeas's taunting him while being in an already distressed state, Adolin would have never killed him. Both broke down their own inhibitions after going through a strong emotional push. Just as Shallan kept on thinking about stealing the soulcaster, Adolin thought about killing Sadeas from times to times.

This is the first time I am drawing a parallel into both scenes. This is very interesting. If I am right about this parallel, then it might be something Brandon will use in his future plotting for these two characters. A lot of people have theorized Shallan wouldn't react positively to hearing Adolin killed Sadeas, mostly because his anger might feel to similar to her father. However if Shallan recognizes in Adolin, the same patterns which led to her to both con/steal Jasnah (an action she regretted doing), then she might feel sympathy towards him or perhaps a strange urge to protect him. I have always thought it'd be interesting if, after spending a lifetime being the strong protective one for his family, if Adolin ended being the one needing the strength of others, even if only for a short while.

I haven't myself drawn a parallel between those two particular scenes before but I agree with your reasoning. I have previously suggested that Shallan's reaction to what Adolin did would somewhat depend on how she found out and what she found out. I think if she hears a proper explanation from Adolin himself she'll likely empathise with him and connect it to her own experiences in general.

An interesting question is - what does Shallan think of Sadeas? Shallan is aware of Sadeas of course since she came up with a plan to try to take him down, to help Adolin. However, I'm not sure just how aware she is Sadeas actions in general, but she didn't like his warcamp at all. I think it would be interesting if she investigated Sadeas a bit. She could talk to Gaz for a start. (On a side note, if Gaz gives Shallan a good description of what bridge runs were like I think she would empathise a lot more with what Kaladin went through and she could confuse those feelings for something else, heh). Shallan has shown a strong tendency to empathise with people she meets or scenes she sees herself. I can imagine her getting angry at what Sadeas did on behalf of people who described his actions to her but I wonder how likely she is to get angry on behalf of all of Sadeas's victims without any sort of "connection"? She hasn't really done this that I remember (depending on how to characterise her desire to save the world).

Anyway, to summarise: if Adolin plainly tells her what happened, I think Shallan would likely empathise with him (which has a strong parallel with their little scene on the balcony when Adolin described how desperate things were at the end of tWoK due to Sadeas). If Shallan learns enough about Sadeas I think she would not just empathise with Adolin but actively support him and defend him, and blame Dalinar for turning a blind eye to Sadeas's evil. Whether those conditions will be filled is another matter, though I think the first one is more likely.

 

6 hours ago, maxal said:

I do not think Shallan would have killed the thugs on the pretense they have been doing harm to others. Each time she acted against someone, it was either in self-defense or in defense of someone she loves. In other words, if it isn't personal, then she seems unlikely to pass to action. I also wouldn't see her planning to kill someone, such as Jasnah, and/or hiring assassins. I do not read her as someone who wants to kill and/or harm people, she has been harmed enough, she has no desire to harm others, quite to the contrary, she wants others to better themselves as illustrated in her "rescuing" of the deserters. She didn't condemn them, she offered them another path. Thus, I don't see her genuinely deciding to kill someone. Each time she has done "bad", it was when her emotions got strong enough to push her to it: her father threatening Balat, Tyn trying to murder her, Jasnah killing the thugs.

Will her involvement with the Ghostbloods create such occasions? Perhaps. Maybe. This is hard to say, they are, after all, the ones who killed Jasnah. I do not think she would actually kill anyone even to keep her cover intact... I see her trying to con her way out of it, to pretend she did it, when in fact she hid the "victim". She is the master of illusions, she can lightweave herself out of it, I think. As for Amaram, he would need to present himself into a real threat for her to decide she wants to kill him. Revenge doesn't seem to inhabit her and while she thinks Amaram did kill Helaran, they were on opposite sides of a battle... There are no reasons she wouldn't reason out it wasn't Amaram's fault just as she is sure to reason out Kaladin isn't to blame. I thus don't see her talking actions against him for this reason.

She isn't an assassin... She has never killed someone not actively engaged in the process of either killing her and/or her brothers. Speaking of which, I had wondered if she might end up having to kill one of her brothers.... There is this WoB about Balat being compromised by Odium... Can she save him or will she have to take him out? If one of her brothers need killing, then I am sure Shallan would do it herself.

Yeah, Shallan does seem to treat violence as a (very) last resort. My suggestion of her possibly targeting Amaram requires a particular set of circumstances that are unlikely to repeat and even then she might not be able to carry it out in practice - if she ever kills Amaram it would probably only be in self-defence or because she finds out from him what he's trying to do (cause a Desolation) and snaps.

There is one caveat though: when she uses the "coldness of clarity" mode she seems to lose her ability to empathise, which actually seems close to what happens with Taravangian on a day to day basis now that I think about it (shifting between cold hard logic and soft empathy). This is more of an impression though. She was in this mode when she poisoned her father.

Here's a thought experiment: what would Shallan do if she met a victim (or victim's relative) of a group of thieves, like the ones Jasnah killed? I don't think she would be able to ignore a heartfelt plea, but I don't see her setting out to kill the thieves either. What she would probably do is try to persuade them to reform - something not too different to what she did with the deserters. If that didn't work she probably try to capture them (using her guards) and have them imprisoned. So she might use herself as bait like Jasnah but with very different intentions.

If her brothers become a lost cause, I can also imagine her killing them (as a sort of mercy killing). However, she's probably much better equipped to fight against those corrupted by Odium compared to when she last saw her brothers. If she hadn't forced herself to forget Pattern etc and had continued to be a Lightweaver, she might well have been able to save her father. It'll be interesting to see what develops here.

 

6 hours ago, maxal said:

I have never believed Elhokar was truly seeing cryptics willing to bond him into his mirror... I am now thinking what is he seeing is related to Odium and it is trying to corrupt him. It has moderately succeeded but not quite so... when Elhokar called in for Kaladin, they went away. That's when I think, perhaps it failed. They might go to someone else...

If it was just him seeing things in shadows that would be one thing but he did drain the gems in his Shardplate at one point. That doesn't prove anything since we don't know what Odium's corruption (via his spren) is capable of doing but it does seem to fit more with Cryptics testing him out. Once he meets Pattern we should get an answer to this, finally.

 

6 hours ago, maxal said:

Will Adolin start seeing shadows into the mirror? Will Odium think all of this anger is something he could use? Will he come for Adolin? Not that I think it will work, but there might be an attempt. I do not know about Kaladin being corrupted, he does have a strong need for vengeance and an anger he can't released, but he has Syl and he is honorable. Personally, I feel Shallan and Adolin would make a good team, they are both impulsive and they can both can ridiculously excited over things. It would be interesting to read, if Brandon decides to go there.

Kaladin's problems were bad enough that he killed Syl, for a while. However, he has progressed past that, so maybe he has been able to correct that flaw properly now.

 

6 hours ago, maxal said:

Well, as a rule of thumb, people will always prefer the heroic action character such as Kaladin to characters such as Shallan within works of fantasy. A lot of people are in it because they want to read about the magic, so they love characters such as Szeth and Kaladin who spends a lot of time using it. I personally do not care for the magic, I care for it as a tool to be used by the characters, but it isn't something I want to read on its own. Thus, Kaladin's heroic fights with a planned in advance outcome aren't my favorite parts of the story. I think Adolin's scenes are more emotion heavy and daunting as his survival isn't assured. 

Shallan, just like Marasi, is the smart female character evolving next to the great action hero. Her morality is dubious, she lies, she tries to con other people, not out of malice, but out of need. She doesn't have Kaladin's carefully crafted story arcs which always ends up in him being positioned to be the hero, thus erasing all his previous wrongs. Shallan has to earn it. She had to earn the Kholin's trusts: it wasn't given to her. And just like Adolin, her actions, finding Urithiru and saving the army, were over-shadowed by Kaladin fighting Szeth.

It has always bothered me Kaladin is considered the hero of the final sequence when in reality, Adolin won the battle and Shallan saved the army. Kaladin defeated the assassin, he saved Dalinar and Adolin's life, but he didn't win the day.

I thus think Shallan is unlike by some because she isn't the traditional fantasy hero. She requires more work to love, but once you love her, she becomes a really great character. 

In tWoK, I found Kaladin, Dalinar and Shallan all to be interesting, but in very different ways. I probably read each of their sequences about as often. For WoR, Dalinar rather took a back seat, Kaladin was on a downward spiral for most of the book and Shallan blossomed (though I cringe through two of her scenes). I never had to work hard to enjoy her as a character, though I did work hard trying to properly understand her and also to defend her in discussions :D

 

6 hours ago, maxal said:

As for Shallan and authority, well, there is this one scene where he asks her to move back inside and she chafe stating she would do as she wish. Then again, she hasn't had much interaction with the man apart from their first meeting where she thought he was ugly and intimidating. We never saw her interact with Elhokar either, so I suspect this might come into play into the next book where she is bond to have more interactions with various figures within positions of authority.

An interesting interaction between Shallan and Dalinar for me is when she shows him that she's a proto Radiant. It's quite subtle but I get the feeling that she revealed that mainly out of sympathy/empathy for Dalinar - she could tell that he was hurt by his failures.

With regards to Elhokar, there's pretty much just this:

Quote

She walked off, seeking the king, to whom she personally delivered news of Jasnah’s death. He took it well, with regal dignity. Dalinar had probably already informed him.

In-world, Elhokar gets little support. Shallan's only impression of him doesn't seem too bad. It would be interesting to see her pass on Jasnah's lessons to him, for example.

 

PS Thanks for the extra info, though I cut it out in my reply to save space.

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On 4/14/2017 at 6:59 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

I guess should have explicitly stated this: I understood what you were saying and was speculating on why this might be the case :)

I would say many readers perspective is entirely biased, my own included. We are made to root for Kaladin, but I think deeper analysis ends up making us root for other characters.

On 4/14/2017 at 6:59 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

I remember Brandon talking about when he was younger and first read the Wheel of Time he basically took the side of the younger characters but on re-reading it when older he appreciated the perspective of the older characters more and found the younger characters to be more annoying (or something like that). I think there's a similar split going on here.

To summarise my thoughts on the major characters: I'd say they all have flaws and this ties into the background and also their character development. For the proto Radiants, they have to overcome their flaws to progress as Radiants, though that's not to say they won't have flaws even as full Radiants. Of course, there's also a difference between "character flaws" and characteristics that some readers don't like. I think it's wrong to deny the existence of those character flaws, since that denies the achievement of overcoming those flaws.

Hmmmm... This is interesting. I never re-read WoT, so it is hard to say who's side I would end up taking this time around, but I must admit I tend to side with the younger characters. I never been immensely interested into the old warrior and/or the old mentor character types. I might find them interesting, but I never wished for them to be the heroes. I have always found the young adult years to be the most interesting period as whatever comes next usually involves more static individuals who already grown into whom they needed to become. Older characters typically involve a lot of static growth and/or a lot of internal mental reluctance towards changing their ways. It also involves broken dreams as opposed to open future which make them less interesting to read, to me as a reader. Do not get me wrong, I love Dalinar, but I wouldn't like it if he were the sole main protagonist into the story. I like the fact he has more of a background role because I find the tribulations of the younger crew more interesting to read.

I do agree it appears as if all Radiants had to work through their flaws to progress. My personal theory is Radiants create their valid spirit web by going through events which test the nature of their being in ways which pleases their sprens. For instance, Kaladin took Tien's death as an incentive to try to protect more actively all other younger recruits. Shallan used her family's desperate condition to create stronger lies for her brothers so they would steer away from Odium's influence.

Obviously not all characters are going to speak to readers in the same way: there is a reason why I prefer Adolin over Kaladin, there is a reason I have trouble with Renarin. 

On 4/14/2017 at 6:59 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

I haven't myself drawn a parallel between those two particular scenes before but I agree with your reasoning. I have previously suggested that Shallan's reaction to what Adolin did would somewhat depend on how she found out and what she found out. I think if she hears a proper explanation from Adolin himself she'll likely empathise with him and connect it to her own experiences in general.

An interesting question is - what does Shallan think of Sadeas? Shallan is aware of Sadeas of course since she came up with a plan to try to take him down, to help Adolin. However, I'm not sure just how aware she is Sadeas actions in general, but she didn't like his warcamp at all. I think it would be interesting if she investigated Sadeas a bit. She could talk to Gaz for a start. (On a side note, if Gaz gives Shallan a good description of what bridge runs were like I think she would empathise a lot more with what Kaladin went through and she could confuse those feelings for something else, heh). Shallan has shown a strong tendency to empathise with people she meets or scenes she sees herself. I can imagine her getting angry at what Sadeas did on behalf of people who described his actions to her but I wonder how likely she is to get angry on behalf of all of Sadeas's victims without any sort of "connection"? She hasn't really done this that I remember (depending on how to characterise her desire to save the world).

Anyway, to summarise: if Adolin plainly tells her what happened, I think Shallan would likely empathise with him (which has a strong parallel with their little scene on the balcony when Adolin described how desperate things were at the end of tWoK due to Sadeas). If Shallan learns enough about Sadeas I think she would not just empathise with Adolin but actively support him and defend him, and blame Dalinar for turning a blind eye to Sadeas's evil. Whether those conditions will be filled is another matter, though I think the first one is more likely.

I never drawn the parallel until your latest post. I do agree Shallan's reaction should be a function of how she'll find out. I can honestly see her reacting both ways. I do think there is enough ground basis to make it realistic for her to either support and/or condemn Adolin. It is why those discussions always end up in a dead end: both sides have decent arguments and in the absence of additional information, we are left guessing. This being said, now we know there will be Shallan/Kaladin moments in Oathbringer, we can expect something bad will happen with the Shallan/Adolin relationship. My current thoughts are Adolin will push Shallan away, yes because of the murder. How she will react though might play a role into the unfolding of it all, but I somehow do not think this will be a happy book for Adolin.

What does Shallan think of Sadeas?

I don't think she thinks much good of him. She did listen quite closely when Adolin opened-up, upon their first date, and started spilling the beans about what happened at the tower. She then notes this story was very personal and filled with strong emotions: she knew something bad had happened, but Adolin's tale was worst than what she expected. Since I felt they genuinely connected within this scene, I do think Shallan is more inclined to sympathize with Adolin here. She was willing to help him find a way to take him down, but I doubt she would do it herself. Sadeas hasn't harmed anyone personal to her, so his threat is potentially more distant, thought he hurt Adolin. I think it is highly possible she has been the only one hearing the full tale from Adolin, how he sees it, how he felt it and I think, at this point in time, she could tell how affected he was by the events. I suspect the tale Dalinar speaks of is very different than Adolin's. There are few instance where Adolin mentions the tower and each time it brings about very strong emotions in him, feelings of terror and dread, feelings of anger and feelings of sorrow for the men who had to die for this treachery.

I thus think Shallan's connection towards Sadeas's victims, she already has it with Adolin. He is one of Sadeas's victims, just one who happened to survive. Depending on how she finds out, she might be able to call onto this connection and feel sorry for Adolin. She might think she should have looked more closely into him. She might think part of it is her fault for not having been a good wife for not having seen how distressed he was. I could see it playing out this way.

I would also state Dalinar's reaction will also influence Shallan. If she read him as a cold tyrant, then she might take Adolin's side more easily. It is very hard to guess. I think, in the end, Brandon will choose the avenue which will lead to the best story telling. The aftermath of Sadeas's death isn't such a big story arc: there will be ramifications, but the whole book won't rest on it. Adolin's character might rest on it, but Shallan is likely to have her own story arc where she explores the city and finds forgotten things. I suspect much of her story arc will be spent away from both Adolin and Kaladin.

On 4/14/2017 at 6:59 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

Yeah, Shallan does seem to treat violence as a (very) last resort. My suggestion of her possibly targeting Amaram requires a particular set of circumstances that are unlikely to repeat and even then she might not be able to carry it out in practice - if she ever kills Amaram it would probably only be in self-defence or because she finds out from him what he's trying to do (cause a Desolation) and snaps.

There is one caveat though: when she uses the "coldness of clarity" mode she seems to lose her ability to empathise, which actually seems close to what happens with Taravangian on a day to day basis now that I think about it (shifting between cold hard logic and soft empathy). This is more of an impression though. She was in this mode when she poisoned her father.

Here's a thought experiment: what would Shallan do if she met a victim (or victim's relative) of a group of thieves, like the ones Jasnah killed? I don't think she would be able to ignore a heartfelt plea, but I don't see her setting out to kill the thieves either. What she would probably do is try to persuade them to reform - something not too different to what she did with the deserters. If that didn't work she probably try to capture them (using her guards) and have them imprisoned. So she might use herself as bait like Jasnah but with very different intentions.

If her brothers become a lost cause, I can also imagine her killing them (as a sort of mercy killing). However, she's probably much better equipped to fight against those corrupted by Odium compared to when she last saw her brothers. If she hadn't forced herself to forget Pattern etc and had continued to be a Lightweaver, she might well have been able to save her father. It'll be interesting to see what develops here.

 I am not sure Shallan ought to be the one to take down Amaram. It seems more fitting if Dalinar does it. For her to snap again, it would require Amaram pulling out a feat similar to her father and even then: Lin had years of building up the tempest into little Shallan. It was very personal, I am unsure anything with Amaram could ever reach this level.

What you refer to as the "cold clarity" moment merely is her needed to disconnect from her emotions in order to do something repulsive. The same happens to Adolin thought it was laced in anger. They both needed their rational thinking to not interfere while their instinctive response took over. I think those moments where triggered by strong events and for them to arise again would require equally strong events.

What would Shallan do if she met one of the thieves victims? I think she still wouldn't turn vigilante. She would try other means first. I just don't see her setting herself out to purposefully kill someone. I think she is more likely to try to con the thieves, trap them and hand them to justice to deal with, so yeah, just as you say.

The more I think about it, the more I suspect she might have to kill one of her brothers, the one she won't be able to save.

On 4/14/2017 at 6:59 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

If it was just him seeing things in shadows that would be one thing but he did drain the gems in his Shardplate at one point. That doesn't prove anything since we don't know what Odium's corruption (via his spren) is capable of doing but it does seem to fit more with Cryptics testing him out. Once he meets Pattern we should get an answer to this, finally.

When Kaladin borrowed a piece of Shardplate, during the 4 on 1 duel, the plate drained his spheres and not the other way around. I think there is a WoB stating it would be very difficult (or even impossible) to drain gems out of a Shardplate... It is something I dimly recall... I might have to hunt for it. Also, draining all the gem stones into a Shardplate seems too much of a strong feat for someone very new to the Nahel bond. Trainees not having progressed past the first oath are highly limited into what they can accomplish and how much stormlight they can use. Even if it were possible for surgebinders to drain the spheres out of a Shardplate, it seems too much for Elhokar to have been able to do it.

I suspect it was something else. I don't buy the idea sprens thought Elhokar was a good candidate. They skipped Adolin but latched on Elhokar? Doubtful.

On 4/14/2017 at 6:59 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

In tWoK, I found Kaladin, Dalinar and Shallan all to be interesting, but in very different ways. I probably read each of their sequences about as often. For WoR, Dalinar rather took a back seat, Kaladin was on a downward spiral for most of the book and Shallan blossomed (though I cringe through two of her scenes). I never had to work hard to enjoy her as a character, though I did work hard trying to properly understand her and also to defend her in discussions :D

Dalinar has always been the one character I enjoyed the less reading. I didn't care much for his visions, back in WoK, and I preferred reading Adolin to him. I was pleased he took a backseat in WoR because I find Adolin much more interesting. It isn't I dislike Dalinar, but I find him terribly rigid and unwilling to compromise which makes him frustrating to read at times. He also think so highly of his codes, I find it annoying. This being said, his past is incredibly interesting, so I am keen on reading it, but I fear his present day arc might turn out being too political for my personal tastes, so huh we'll see.

I was initially bummed in hearing WoR would be about Shallan, not because I disliked her, I rather liked her in WoK, but because I wanted to keep on reading Kaladin. I did not like her first chapters as I felt she wasn't assertive enough and I didn't feel like reading a character refusing to act/talk for a 1000 pages. Luckily her story arc took a sharp turn early on and I started really liking her. She was quite a reveal after that though I never liked the Tyn part.

On 4/14/2017 at 6:59 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

An interesting interaction between Shallan and Dalinar for me is when she shows him that she's a proto Radiant. It's quite subtle but I get the feeling that she revealed that mainly out of sympathy/empathy for Dalinar - she could tell that he was hurt by his failures.

With regards to Elhokar, there's pretty much just this:

In-world, Elhokar gets little support. Shallan's only impression of him doesn't seem too bad. It would be interesting to see her pass on Jasnah's lessons to him, for example.

I don't think Elhokar is a bad person, though he is full of himself, spoiled and capricious. I personally never been very interested in reading an Elhokar oriented story arc where he overcomes his issues: I felt it would be too redundant and I can't see how it would fit with the remaining of the main narrative. I enjoy the character for what he means to Dalinar which is the one way I wish to see him explored. 

Elhokar gets Dalinar undying support. Theories have been made Dalinar loves Elhokar more than he loves Adolin.... so I wouldn't say he is lacking in support. 

On 4/14/2017 at 6:59 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

PS Thanks for the extra info, though I cut it out in my reply to save space.

You're welcome. It was a nice bout of information for those who love Adolin. Good news for his character have been long in the coming.

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2 hours ago, maxal said:

Hmmmm... This is interesting. I never re-read WoT, so it is hard to say who's side I would end up taking this time around, but I must admit I tend to side with the younger characters. I never been immensely interested into the old warrior and/or the old mentor character types. I might find them interesting, but I never wished for them to be the heroes. I have always found the young adult years to be the most interesting period as whatever comes next usually involves more static individuals who already grown into whom they needed to become. Older characters typically involve a lot of static growth and/or a lot of internal mental reluctance towards changing their ways. It also involves broken dreams as opposed to open future which make them less interesting to read, to me as a reader. Do not get me wrong, I love Dalinar, but I wouldn't like it if he were the sole main protagonist into the story. I like the fact he has more of a background role because I find the tribulations of the younger crew more interesting to read.

Of the current "big three", I find Kaladin to be the least "innovative" (he's a much more conventional hero) but he has a lot of depth. Dalinar is very interesting and innovative as a character and it's nice to see character arcs and romance not being limited to the younger characters - I'm looking forwards to seeing his back story. Shallan is not so much innovative as a character as completely out of the norm for the setting - totally unorthodox as major character in a fantasy series to the extent that I suspect many readers wonder what she's even doing here.

 

2 hours ago, maxal said:

I never drawn the parallel until your latest post. I do agree Shallan's reaction should be a function of how she'll find out. I can honestly see her reacting both ways. I do think there is enough ground basis to make it realistic for her to either support and/or condemn Adolin. It is why those discussions always end up in a dead end: both sides have decent arguments and in the absence of additional information, we are left guessing. This being said, now we know there will be Shallan/Kaladin moments in Oathbringer, we can expect something bad will happen with the Shallan/Adolin relationship. My current thoughts are Adolin will push Shallan away, yes because of the murder. How she will react though might play a role into the unfolding of it all, but I somehow do not think this will be a happy book for Adolin.

What does Shallan think of Sadeas?

I don't think she thinks much good of him. She did listen quite closely when Adolin opened-up, upon their first date, and started spilling the beans about what happened at the tower. She then notes this story was very personal and filled with strong emotions: she knew something bad had happened, but Adolin's tale was worst than what she expected. Since I felt they genuinely connected within this scene, I do think Shallan is more inclined to sympathize with Adolin here. She was willing to help him find a way to take him down, but I doubt she would do it herself. Sadeas hasn't harmed anyone personal to her, so his threat is potentially more distant, thought he hurt Adolin. I think it is highly possible she has been the only one hearing the full tale from Adolin, how he sees it, how he felt it and I think, at this point in time, she could tell how affected he was by the events. I suspect the tale Dalinar speaks of is very different than Adolin's. There are few instance where Adolin mentions the tower and each time it brings about very strong emotions in him, feelings of terror and dread, feelings of anger and feelings of sorrow for the men who had to die for this treachery.

I thus think Shallan's connection towards Sadeas's victims, she already has it with Adolin. He is one of Sadeas's victims, just one who happened to survive. Depending on how she finds out, she might be able to call onto this connection and feel sorry for Adolin. She might think she should have looked more closely into him. She might think part of it is her fault for not having been a good wife for not having seen how distressed he was. I could see it playing out this way.

I would also state Dalinar's reaction will also influence Shallan. If she read him as a cold tyrant, then she might take Adolin's side more easily. It is very hard to guess. I think, in the end, Brandon will choose the avenue which will lead to the best story telling. The aftermath of Sadeas's death isn't such a big story arc: there will be ramifications, but the whole book won't rest on it. Adolin's character might rest on it, but Shallan is likely to have her own story arc where she explores the city and finds forgotten things. I suspect much of her story arc will be spent away from both Adolin and Kaladin.

Hmm, I guess I needed to explain my comments on Shallan here a bit more clearly.

As we've discussed before, emotion does motivate Shallan and even starting from the assumption that Shallan takes Adolin's side on Sadeas, how motivated and aggressive she might be in doing so will be influenced by a number of factors, one of which is how strongly she sees Sadeas as being evil (or similar). Shallan is actually a direct victim of Sadeas (from the bridge drop) though I don't remember her acknowledging that (but it should be obvious). Then there's the people around her, including Adolin, Dalinar, Navani, Kaladin and also her guards (Gaz etc). So what about the people who she doesn't know personally? Such as, the people who did die in the bridge drop, the soldiers who were with Adolin in tWoK, and all the slaves who died in bridge runs. Add all those up and just how many deaths has Sadeas caused? Probably well over 10,000. Would Shallan investigate far enough to be able to estimate that? How strongly would that affect her? I'd like to see Shallan go ballistic over this and confronting Dalinar, but I've no idea if that's going to happen since Shallan has shown a tendency to be most motivated by more direct things (ie she'd be more likely to be motivated by the handful of victims she knows personally than the 10,000 or whatever that she doesn't but maybe I'm wrong on that). At the very least though, I want Dalinar to recognise that he was way too lenient on Sadeas, indirectly leading to what happened with Adolin.

 

2 hours ago, maxal said:

 I am not sure Shallan ought to be the one to take down Amaram. It seems more fitting if Dalinar does it. For her to snap again, it would require Amaram pulling out a feat similar to her father and even then: Lin had years of building up the tempest into little Shallan. It was very personal, I am unsure anything with Amaram could ever reach this level.

I agree that it would be more fitting that Dalinar does it. Amaram running around still is his responsibility.

 

2 hours ago, maxal said:

What you refer to as the "cold clarity" moment merely is her needed to disconnect from her emotions in order to do something repulsive. The same happens to Adolin thought it was laced in anger. They both needed their rational thinking to not interfere while their instinctive response took over. I think those moments where triggered by strong events and for them to arise again would require equally strong events.

Maybe it's just an extreme "survival mode", but I have suspicions it's slightly supernatural. Hard to explain really, but like Shallan's clairvoyance (which is confirmed), I think there's something more to it.

 

2 hours ago, maxal said:

The more I think about it, the more I suspect she might have to kill one of her brothers, the one she won't be able to save.

I'm not sure they'll even meet up, depending on how things play out.

 

2 hours ago, maxal said:

When Kaladin borrowed a piece of Shardplate, during the 4 on 1 duel, the plate drained his spheres and not the other way around. I think there is a WoB stating it would be very difficult (or even impossible) to drain gems out of a Shardplate... It is something I dimly recall... I might have to hunt for it. Also, draining all the gem stones into a Shardplate seems too much of a strong feat for someone very new to the Nahel bond. Trainees not having progressed past the first oath are highly limited into what they can accomplish and how much stormlight they can use. Even if it were possible for surgebinders to drain the spheres out of a Shardplate, it seems too much for Elhokar to have been able to do it.

IIRC it's hard to drain gems in a Shardplate from outside, but might be possible from inside.

 

2 hours ago, maxal said:

I suspect it was something else. I don't buy the idea sprens thought Elhokar was a good candidate. They skipped Adolin but latched on Elhokar? Doubtful.

Well, it depends how "broken" they are and how well they're reflecting an attribute that would attract a particular spren. Attracting a spren doesn't indicate that they're a better person, necessarily - can be the reverse actually.

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5 hours ago, maxal said:

This being said, now we know there will be Shallan/Kaladin moments in Oathbringer, we can expect something bad will happen with the Shallan/Adolin relationship. My current thoughts are Adolin will push Shallan away, yes because of the murder. How she will react though might play a role into the unfolding of it all, but I somehow do not think this will be a happy book for Adolin.

Oops, I had missed commenting on this bit...

To me, this "moments" thing can mean almost anything. Arguably they had "moments" in WoR already. Maybe they'll have some more in Oathbringer but we'll have to read the book to find out how many and how significant. I found this WoB to be more useful:

On 19/03/2017 at 1:06 PM, Kanrei said:

Q: Will there be love triangle between Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin. (It was mostly fun question and small hope that he will say spoilers and give me RAFO card ;P, I guess I should ask about Yolen or Dalinars wife for that)

A: Sanderson - not rly love triangle, more like confusion of teenagers about fact who they are attracted to.

Sounds to me like we might have a weak love triangle until this "confusion" is sorted out, which could easily happen within Oathbreaker (I hope it doesn't drag out any more than that at least). If a new and improved Kaladin returns when Shallan and Adolin's relationship is going through difficulties with who knows what else going on then it's possible there could be some "moments" during that time. The way it's phrased sounds like this "confusion" will be temporary and not ultimately something significant long term, though this might be wishful thinking.

I do have to wonder what's the point of this "confusion" though. Seems like a good way to annoy readers whatever the end result - I don't want to pre-judge the book but it seems like dangerous territory. Going to be hard to do without all three characters coming off worse for it.

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To add to my comment above about the possibility of a "weak love triangle"...

Thinking it through, perhaps the "best" in-world reason for doing such a thing would be to kick Shallan's reluctant brain into action. Referring this habit:

Quote

That’s what you do, a deeply buried part of herself accused her. You distract yourself. You refuse to think about things that bother you.

If she's having problems with Adolin, she might well take refuge in this bad habit and basically ignore it. However, it would probably be much harder for her to do that if she's also having "moments" with Kaladin because she would inevitably compare the two. (Hopefully that makes any sense...)

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